One more thing. Don’t forget where BC Housing gets it’s money. I haven’t.

Regardless of whose name was on the cheque, the city still paid 910k for something they could have got for a dollar…..correct?

Well, it took all this time for some more of the figures and the events that are going to happen come out. Why in the heck does it take people/reporters to have to go through the damn freedom of information act to do something the flippin government should have done in the first place. No wonder people are fed up with governments. This deal has been in the works for a while. Let the people know for pete’s sakes. There seems to be a lack of trust from the public because of government is not being transparent. Hello out there….if you were to be up front all this could have been avoided. Koodoos to O250 for letting the readers know. Commonwealth & governments shame on you for not letting this story unfold in a decent manner. Why was this not put in the news in a positive light? Maybe just maybe you could have had a more positive response from the public.

Sometimes following the money is very difficult. Why is that????

When Government funds are used for any project, then at the end of the day, every penny should be accounted for, and we should be shown where the money went.

This might make it a little more difficult for **sweetheart** deals to take place, but because it is our money we are entitled to the information.

The different levels of Government always seem to think that the money they spend, is their money, rather than taxpayers money. I personally get sick and tired of how money is wasted, and information is hidden.

We have Senior Citizens who cannot afford to buy their medication, after they pay all their taxes, etc; and on the other hand we have Government workers, politicians, and corporations, rolling in dough.

Anyone see anything wrong with this picture???

Sometimes following the money is very difficult. Why is that????

When Government funds are used for any project, then at the end of the day, every penny should be accounted for, and we should be shown where the money went.

This might make it a little more difficult for **sweetheart** deals to take place, but because it is our money we are entitled to the information.

The different levels of Government always seem to think that the money they spend, is their money, rather than taxpayers money. I personally get sick and tired of how money is wasted, and information is hidden.

We have Senior Citizens who cannot afford to buy their medication, after they pay all their taxes, etc; and on the other hand we have Government workers, politicians, and corporations, rolling in dough.

Anyone see anything wrong with this picture???

I guess I thought the issue was worth repeating.

What ever way the money is paid, the city is getting a good deal on buying a building. Like an 80% off deal. Wish I could get a house for that deal.

“We have Senior Citizens who cannot afford to buy their medication, after they pay all their taxes, etc; and on the other hand we have Government workers, politicians, and corporations, rolling in dough

Anyone see anything wrong with this picture???”

Yeah I do. Your statement is ultra simplistic and as a result, it can’t really be used to draw any meaningful conclusion. Here, I’ll do the same thing but take the opposite path:

We have senior citizens who can afford to spend half the year in Florida but still come running home when they need health care, corporations who are going bankrupt and government workers in big cities that don’t make a living wage.

See how easy it is to just throw stuff out there? LOL.

So, the City pays BC House $910,000, BC Housing pays Commonwealth $5,905,000 to Commonwealth. Commonwealth nets at least $910,000 plus whatever else they can skim off the top.

And the rich part is that Commonwealth has to get a lawyer involved? Must be nice to have enough money that you can afford to have a lawyer do your press releases.

This is too good!

http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/rsmeans/models/apartment/

36 units, 800 square feet per unit, $120 per square foot, = $3,500,000.

Commonwealth didn’t get $910,000 from the City. They got ($5.9 – $3.5 million) $2.4 million net from BC Housing of which $910,000 was for the air space.

What Commonwealth’s lawyers didn’t say in their press release was that Commonwealth will probably get the revitalization tax exemption up front which is worth another $1.5 million.

So that still works out to a net profit of $3.9 million on this deal. This is obscene.

It wouldn’t be so bad if Commonwealth had to actually pay taxes on this, but they get to apply their loses from Commonwealth Health… I’m guessing they won’t have to pay much tax on this.

NMG. There was a program on TV the other nite that showed how bad off a lot of senior citizens in Canada actually are.

One family in particular a man and wife were in dire straights. Ie; He was afflicted with Alzenheimers among other problems. Both were in their mid 80’s.

There were times when they faced the problem of paying out $90.00 to get the drugs that he needed, or to buy food. They chose the food, and as a result he suffered.

Dont make snide or stupid remarks to me about what takes place in this Country. We have Politicians, Government entities, etc; living high off the hog, and finding various and devious ways to tax us to death, without any concern about the consequences. This kind of BS has to come to an end.

Why should anyone who has worked all their life, and are now old and sick, and hovering around the poverty line, be screwed by the various Governments that should be ensuring that at the very minimum they have access to the drugs that they need.

These **two bit** Politicians, and Government workers can not even solve the problem of line ups at emergency at our hospitals. They cant even put in water and sewer systems that can last more than 20 years without breaking up. They piss money away like drunken sailors and come back for more.

Its time Canadians and especially seniors started to demand some responsible Government in the Country.

The growing demographic in this country are seniors, and with them comes all the attendent problems.

Its time to quit wasting money on **stupid** and I repeat **stupid** Government projects and spend this money, on health, welfare, and meaningful education.

Yes, and that US data included the foundations. Commonwealth already had the foundations given to them.

Irri, are you part of the Commonwealth Group? You seem to have a lot of information that only someone very close to the deal could have.

Bringing residences to downtown is a great story for Prince George. With the exception of Opinion 250, every other media outlet has written supporting stories regarding this great project. Leave it to Meisner to ignore the facts and create unnecessary sensation. Clean up your act Ben. It’s amazing that you haven’t been sued yet. It won’t be the first time.

Doing something for the down-town – or making gobs of money on appearing to be doing something for the down-town?

Legal / engineering / etc. – these are usually included in development costs and per unit cost calculations, so please don’t try to pull wool over the eyes of an already confused flock of sheep.

What a sleaze deal and the worst of it all is that Green and her cronies voted to approve the deal and then got – ya got it – voted in by McLaren money – Commonwealth for those that don’t know.

No wonder there voter turn-out in this burg is so low.
No wonder we don’t have “faith” in our politicians – or trust for that matter.

Way to go sleaze – the future of our slimy city.

You win some and you lose some Ben.

Irri – what can I say – What opportunistic nonsense. Must certainly be part of the communication division of commonwealth ….

No one is bitching about private sector taking risk and making money. What we are berating is the sucking sound out of taxpayers funds to a sleazy deal – with no risk involved.

Take the platitudes and rose coloured glasses out of the picture and let us all smell the pig poop that is really underneath this particular deal.

Down-town taxes are not the driver for city revenues. Small business pays very little in taxes. Its the heavy industry that carries the greatest burden, so please stop trying to snow us – winter or not. And if small business margins are really so slim that a few thousand a year in taxes is a deal breaker – then you may need to revamp that particular business model significantly or learn effective management and marketing.

Anyway – I’m tired of this ideological nonsense – could be the Canadian taxpayers Federation writing your points Irri.

Get real, start thinking realistically and recognize that your audience is not quite as unwashed and brain washable as you might think.

semantics people…if I give 910k to johnny to give to peter am I not giving peter 910k no matter what lawyers say?

While adding residences to downtown is important to revitalize it another question is how much time are seniors going to spend in stores? Most are on a fixed income and not apt to go cruising George Street looking for deals

Sivil I sure hope you are wrong about the money stream, but be interesting to see where the declaration of election spending takes us

irri… are you a shareholder in the Commonwealth group of companies, or family?
That really says it all.

and try and be honest..

Irri – you also missed the issue with $ per square foot. Most developers have to pay for the land and also have to pay for a parking garage of some type which in this case, unless I am missing something, is actually a negative number.

Although costs are higher on a lower square footage due to the fact that they still need a kitchen and bathroom the finishing will not be as high end as some homes…to conclude $200 per square foot would seem to imply some type of gold inlay on the baseboards

While common area is a cost there is also a savings of not having to put on siding on half of the unit you are building as it is in the hallway and drywalled

Remember the Friendship Lodge?

Opened just over 2 years ago.

Cost? $8.1 million including property.

Units? 30

Project assembled by? BC Housing.

Operated by? Native Friendship Centre

Cost per unit? $270,000

—————————————
New housing for seniors

Opening roughly 3 years later

Cost? appears to be 5,905,000.00, including “property” = “air rights”

Units? 36

Project assembled by? BC Housing.

Operated by? Elisabeth Fry Society.

Cost per unit? $164,028
————————————–

Memories are so short when the Commonwelath red cape is held in front of some people’s eyes.

Such a deal. Based on that I think we should use Commonwealth more often to bid on BC Housing projects. ;-)

Irri,
Isn’t that the beauty of it though? You don’t need money to do what Commonwealth does–you just need to be connected. They were into the PG Hotel deal for $75,000 of their own money and they don’t have any money in the Senior’s Centre that any of us can see.

No risk, mega profits. Like you said, “Commonwealth is making money off of [the] taxpayer’s back” and that’s the problem.

I think anyone who quotes Means estimating books should at least have some understanding of how they are to be used. For the most obvious, the pricing is for 2008, not 2011. Also, the factor of regional differnces have to be applied. The back of the books have regions, most of which are in the USA. There are only a few of the major Canadian cities that are cited.

If one wants Canadian pricing, then use a Canadian pricing book, Yardsticks for Costing. Even it does not provide good quality data for remote areas such as PG. There is simply not enough volume to get a good database from to do reliable estimates.

http://www.hanscomb.com/default.asp?action=article&ID=61

Call a contractor who builds apartments around here. They will give you a price range for a specialty building like that.

As far as foundations not being required, I am not certain about that.

The garage was built with columns not based on any configuration other than carrying a load down to those columns. The slab would not have been designed to carry bearing walls which might fall into different locations. I know that part of the structure was able to accommodate a possible 4 storeys or so on top of the original Chances operations. Only those directly involved with the desing and construction would know what changes had to be made to accommodate the load of the current construction.

Let’s not try to improve downtown on the back of the average taxpayer. It certainly seems everytime there is property for sale downtown the city ends up with the purchase and is now the largest landowner in the downtown core. As for living downtown unless the seniors who live in the core drive or can walk to Parkwood it just might be a bit difficult geting groceries.
I can’t imagine anyone wanting to live downtown.
The downtown area is a far cry from the amenities available in places like Scottsdale Az. I just can’t picture downtown PG becoming a trendy little mecca attracting visitors and residents. Have any of the downtown proponents expressed publically an interest in living downtown?
As a home owner and taxpayer I really just want to start with the basics ,decent roads, snow clearing, and the streets swept. To often the people at city hall charge ahead with the photo op money gobbling projects like so called community energy systems, winter games, Boundary rd, etc, instead of concentrating on core services.

Gus,
Wasn’t the Friendship Lodge a LEED Gold Building? This is very different construction and costs quite a bit more. The Senior’s Centre isn’t LEED anything.

http://recollective.ca/2010/07/10/friendship-lodge/

I think the Friendship Centre had to pay for their foundations?

Did the Friendship Centre get $10,000 per suite plus 10 years of tax credits up front from the City?

This all needs to be factored in.

In the end, if this was all on the up and up, then why did it have to be kept so hush hush? This is public money–entirely. Who were the various governments competing with? Why wasn’t it debated publicly. Why wasn’t it an open tender?

The City could have exercised their option on the adjacent airspace for $1. Why didn’t they do that? Why does this all have to be kept quiet?

I agree with you Icicle that a better quality of communication has to be had on publicly funded projects as soon as is possible.

Here is what the RCMP is doing with the new headquarters under construction in Surrey.

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/biens-property/nouvelles-news/ediv-grc-rcmp-eng.html

Of course, the press got that one all wrong when they announced that the cost of the building went up from the “original “project construction estimate of $300 million to $1 billion.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/gary_mason/ottawa-ultimatum-on-rcmp-contract-lets-bc-flex-its-muscles/article2183996

Here is a quote from the article linked above.

“Originally estimated to have a price tag of $300-million, costs on the project have now ballooned to nearly $1-billion.”

Of course they did not read the details or understand them since they were comparing the construction cost to the 25 year P3 agreement which included all costs includiung 25 year operating and maintenance costs.

Just because all or most of the information is released, does not guarantee that everyone in the public will understand it. And, even if they did understand it, there will be those who agree to those who do not agree.

In the final analysis, we have people we have either voted in or hired to do the detail work for us. We have to be able to trust them to some extent.

In the case of the RCMP Div E head office, the process was audited by a fairness auditor.

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/se-fm/aout-aug-0410-eng.html

Of course, all that costs even more money, although miniscule when one looks at the total project cost.

If we don’t have disclosure, it breeds an environment of distrust and suspicion. To quote Sivil, it looks like something “sleazy” has happened.

Backroom deals, public money in Commonwealth’s hands, it goes on and on.

Don’t pretend Gus that this deal or the other Commonwealth deals have somehow been made public–they haven’t. Selected portions have been released. Ben has had to FOI the information and he still hasn’t got it all.

Palopu, you go from somewhat rational to mild lunacy in what seems like seconds, so it’s often difficult to figure out exactly how to take some of your comments . . .

Anyway, let’s focus on this one:

“The growing demographic in this country are seniors, and with them comes all the attendent problems”

I agree with you 100%. Over the next decade or two, we will have a significant shift in the population as all of the baby boomers retire and start to remove themselves from the workplace. As their incomes drop, they will also remove their tax dollar contributions from the economy. They will also cost the medical system SIGNIFICANTLY more than what they cost it now.

How then, do you envision that Canada will be able to get through this shift in demographics if taxes keep going down?

Oh and I’m also curious how you would categorize seniors who used to be government workers. Are they still blood suckers or do they get a pass given that they served this country for 30 or 40 years?

Corporate welfare at it’s finest.