“Lambert says net-zero would compound the growing gap between BC teachers’ salaries and those in other provinces. She points out that teachers at the top of the pay scale in Alberta make more than 20-thousand dollars above the highest-paid teachers in BC”

Does Lambert not realize that an increase in wages without an equal increase in funding will almost certainly mean that actual teaching positions will have to be cut?

If she is proposing a raise with the same number of positions, where is she proposing that the government find the money? Does she want to see taxes raised or does she want to see the budget of another program cut in order to satisfy the demands of teachers? If it’s the former, what taxes and on whom? If it’s the latter, which programs and why?

We need to start having a larger dialogue and we have to get away from this “bubble mentality” that everything is done in isolation and that it has no impact on anyone else. What does an “x percent” raise for teachers or nurses mean for the overall picture? How does an “x percent” tax cut for corporations and high income earners impact government revenues? What can we afford, where do we find the money to pay for it and how do we allocate it to our various needs? Is it wise to spend 1 billion dollars on a new roof for BC place if we can’t even fund some of the basic services?

I also think there’s a point where maybe the unions should show some leadership, look around at what is happening in some fairly advanced countries in the world (like our largest trading partner perhaps?) and say “you know, maybe we’re all right for right now, let’s take one for the team in the short term and help contribute to some much needed stability”.

This constant process of everyone looking out for themselves is going to destroy us. And when I say everyone, I mean everyone. That’s big business, big unions, governments and average citizens. Is there any sense of a larger “community” out there anymore?

X2.
metalman.

“I think one of the characteristics of deflation is it’s propensity to pit individuals and groups against one another. When times are good a few people win big and most will do just so so, but almost no one is a loser. That might cause some sense of unfairness and minor resentments, but, except for the pathologically greedy, it’s a set of outcomes that most ‘normal’ people can abide. But, when the wealth pie is shrinking and standards of living are dropping then it becomes a different game – how to divvy up losses. This is not something at which humans appear to be very good.”

“Exactly. There is a fundamental shift in collective psychology that leads to fighting over a shrinking wealth pie. This dynamic appears to be characteristic of humanity. To make matters, much of the shrinking wealth pie can be destroyed in the process of fighting over it, which only strengthens the propensity toward conflict. We haven’t seen this yet, but we will, and we aren’t going to like it,”

http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2010/08/august-18-2010-fannie-and-freddie-exit.html

NMG says

“If she is proposing a raise with the same number of positions, where is she proposing that the government find the money?”

From the cooporate sector where all the tax breaks are. Raise coorporate taxes and quit layin all the taxes on the working people we’re alredy taxed to death.

I’d like a raise to match the cost of living increases but will never see it and haven’t for the past 7 years.

When the NDP gets back into power, they can punish the corporations like they did last time. Hopefully not too many of them pick up and leave (like the last time)…

I agree with what NMG said. Good post.

Why Don’t They ALL resign EN MASSE? That would be awesome. Then stay out until the corporations are forced to pay up what they owe to the people of BC. It won’t be long and hopefully this economy crashes. The taxes we have to pay is just robbery while these corporate pigs pay nothing. I do my very best to buy nothing here only food and they rip me off for HST on internet but other then that I aint payed any HST this full month. A concerted effort on my part. I did all my christmas shopping over in Grande Prairie and payed NOTHING for HST. Really soon the NDP will be back in BC and the HST will be EXTINGUISHED.

“Why Don’t They ALL resign EN MASSE?”

Now that’s funny…Do you honestly think anyone would give up a cushy job like theirs and do you honestly think they can’t be replaced in a heart beat?

I think the point of Lambert’s comments is being missed by some. BCPSEA has a ‘net-zero mandate.” They say that they have no money to put into bargaining a contract with the teachers, yet seem to have come up with money for the CUPE contracts. The net-zero mandate was also forgotten when the government bargained some other contracts. BCPSEA has brought nothing to the table other than demands that strip contracts. This government’s only goal when ‘bargaining’ with the teachers is to destroy the teacher’s union, take complete control of the system and move toward a system that can be seen in the States where corporations seem to have a lot more say in how the system works.

M:”I did all my christmas shopping over in Grande Prairie and payed NOTHING for HST.”

So how did you contribute to the ability of the Province of B.C. to pay government employees (like teachers!) by NOT paying the HST, which incorporates the provincial PST and which is used to pay teachers wages?

M:”Then stay out until the corporations are forced to pay up what they owe to the people of BC.”

HOW in the world would a mass resignation of the teachers motivate ANY corporation to pay one more cent of taxes above and beyond what the tax regulations obligate them to pay?

M:”It won’t be long and hopefully this economy crashes.”

Just what the province needs – a CRASHED economy! That will really improve the wages and working conditions of everyone, guaranteed!

What kind of bizarre ideas are these? Are they NDP faithful ideas?

Are the teachers going to return the $4000 signing bonus they got last contract signing and where does it all end. Give me, give me. The union said they want a 5 day paid days off in the event of the death of friends. Give me a break. They tell you how hard they work, then why was it that my spouse did more teaching our kids at home then what they got in school. Please do not use the class room size. Classes are no bigger than when I went to school and that was a long time ago folks. Have a nice day.

Susam Lambert stated that Alberta teacher make $20K more than the highest paid teachers in BC. Guess Albetra is the place to go and don”t worry there will be others that would gladly come to BC to fill those spots.

Sounds like some do not value education. Sure hire new teachers; let’s show your most precious treasure, your child that education really means nothing. Welcome to a 3rd world education system. But it’s what you all want.

Your kids would all have to go to Alberta for a quality education. Teachers after 5-10 get a bit tired of the public making them feel like scum, you might get what you wish for, they could leave and go else where like all the other professionals in our province have done. Then we can all bitch about the lack of professional services. Some of you think it’s such an easy job being a teacher. I would love to see some of you try it. The 4th floor at the hospital would need to be expanded. And me I would be in jail with some of the kids that are out there, and even worse some parents of those kids.

No, it is not likely that teachers in this province will be resigning en masse. It is also not likely they could be “replaced in a heart beat”. To become certified to teach, one needs a minimum of five years university. Many new teachers have six or more years university. There are approximately 41,000 public school teachers in BC. Where are the replacements going to come from?

In 2008, the 36.2% of new teachers on call made less than $10,000 and 78.5% made less than $30,000. Many teachers spend years on call before getting a contract. If their first contract is full time, they will make $45,000, but most are not full time and earn less than that. The better question is – who in their right mind would become a teacher these days?

Having lived here in B.C. a good many decades I can relate (from my own experience) that there has never been a year or two when the teachers and their union actually got along with ANY government, be it Socred, NDP or Liberal.

This agitation and fighting is as reliable as the swallows returning to Capistrano in the spring or dandelions on the lawn!

If the teachers make that much more money in Alberta perhaps that is where they should go. I would. Trees can’t move, people can.

A lot of people went to Alberta during the nineties when B.C. was in the dumps. Necessity, the mother of change!

There is a real shortage of trades people in B.C. and perhaps it would be wiser for a smart young person NOT to become an angry teacher but choose such a trades profession with a future. Or change careers. Most of the trades people belong to unions, so it wouldn’t be such a leap for the potential teachers to envision themselves belonging to one of them and to be with the trades and mill workers on a picket line.

They are already familiar with picket lines.

Excellent points, my2cents. There seems to be an opinion that anyone can become a teacher, probably stemming from the old adage ‘ Those who can: do. Those who can’t: teach”.

To all of those who believe teaching is easy, just try it! Its the same for those who believe welding is easy or long haul driving is easy. We only see a little part of their job and think anyone can do it.

Now some of the negotiated requests the BCTF have made are a little pie in the sky: i.e: the extended leaves, etc, but never think that their job is easy.

And for those who believe they should be let go en masse, hopefully you will all be the first to volunteer when the new jobs come up so you can show us how its done!

Why don’t we follow some other countries model of education? The poor go to public school and the teachers start their career in the public school. After a few years of public school, the good one’s get hired by the private schools and a 75% wage increase. But hears the true kicker for the parents, Public school graduates know little less than the minimum required for the post secondary requirements so now your kid needs to do upgrading.

Private school tuition even in Mexico is minimum $7,500.00 USD per student per year. And a really top notch school were the education is recognized in Canada and united States $10,000 USD per year per student and the teachers make more than our highest paid teachers.

In Canada, education is included in your tax. So whats it worth to have well paid educators in our country?

Some think its not even worth baby sitters wage. I agree with my2cents2,who in their right mind would become a teacher these days?

“,who in their right mind would become a teacher these days?”

Someone who likes the idea of working a six ~ seven hour day and having 3 months of vacation a year?

Just wait til the spring when thousands of BCGEU members contracts are up.

At present, the BCPSEA group appears to not want to bargain at all. Even if the teachers were to agree to no wage increase, no new benefits, no change in working conditions, etc., that would not be acceptable to BCPSEA. They only want concessions to the current contract that the teachers have. The BCTF did put some pretty silly demands on the table to begin with, but isn’t that how bargaining starts in any sector?

Posted by: P.OED on December 18 2011 10:32 AM
“Sounds like some do not value education. Sure hire new teachers; let’s show your most precious treasure, your child that education really means nothing. Welcome to a 3rd world education system. But it’s what you all want.”

I’m so sick of these arguments. It’s terrible that I should feel like my children will only receive a decent education if we pay teachers more. What an absolute insult to teachers to suggest they only work hard if they’re being paid well.

There are many teacher leaving the profession after 5 years. It’s cxalled the 5 year burnout and it will continue forever because it is the most “thankless” job there is after 5 years of university. I’m one of those who left, and I can’t say I’m sorry. There was 3 of my friends quit the same year I did. If any one cares to look up the histoty of the BC teachers union, I believe you will find the Socreds forced the BC teachers into become a union. All governments screw up anything they touch.
As a teacher, the job and its paperwork, goes home with you every day. In the summer and during holidays you run into students everywhere. You can’t get away from it. There is no “chill out” and put your feet up like other professions; yet the pay is minimal for the actual hours worked. The pay is much less than a realtor with a 3 month couse behind them.

Good work Supertech. Way too many teachers would rather whine and complain because everyone else has it so easy compared to them and suggest that you and me should make it better for them. Instead you realized that the choice you made didn’t work for you and then you made it better for yourself.

They are seat of the pants reactionary ideas. Like many of us, they have no solutions. In fact, the government has no solution. If they had, they would not have steered away from their “net zero” strategy.

I agree with My3Centsworth.

From my point of view, the “net zero” notion is simply a bargaining strategy. It is not exactly the first time it is being used.

If there are to be solutions, one needs to know the “problem”.

I bet every single one on here would define the “problem” differently.

Is it:
1. retaining status quo against other teachers across the country?
2. improving one’s total income/benefits in relation to one’s own situation?
3. keeping up with inflation? That was 2.2% averaged for the province in the past year and about 8% since 2006 which was the starting year of the current contract.
4. improving the salary/benefit relationship with other professionals?

Here are comparative provincial salaries of a teacher with 8 years experience with a bachelor degree + 2 year teaching degree as listed on the following web page
http://www.nucleuslearning.com/node/3158

The term of the agreements is in the brackets and the relationship with Alberta, which has the highest salaries, but also the highest province wide cost of living increase since 2002, the base year – 26% increase versus BC’s 17.4%

1Alberta (Calgary)(2006-2012)$87,954
2Ontario (Toronto)(2008-2012)$83,865 -4.6%
3Manitoba (Winnipeg)$76,547 -13.0%
4British Columbia (Vancouver)(2006-2011)$73,972 -15.9%
5New Brunswick(2008-2012)$72,536 -17.5%
6Saskatchewan(2007-2010)$72,435 -17.6%
7Newfoundland(2008-2012)$69,994 -20.4%
8P.E.I.(2010-2013)$64,608 -26.5%
9Nova Scotia(2008-2010)$59,644 -32.2%
10Quebec (Montreal)(2010-2011)$52,435 -40.4%

I think you may well be right about the Socreds and the teachers, Supertech. The WAC Bennett Socred government, in its last term of office, was faced with runaway inflation.

It was the inevitable result of a decade of enormous ‘growth’ throughout BC all through the 1960’s as that growth finally began to slow.

Bennett tried limit public sector wage increases, including teacher salaries, to 5% and 6% over two years (sounds substantial now, but when prices were rising yearly at a far larger percentage, as they then were, and there was no corresponding action on the part of the government to try to restrict that, it wasn’t).

The teachers revolted and their organised action in the 1972 election ended the 20 year rule of the best government we’d ever had, (even though they handled that whole situation particularly poorly ~ if they’d remembered their original ‘Social Credit’ ideology instead of veering off hard to the right, the whole issue could’ve readily been dealt with.)

Instead, we got three years of disaster under Barrett’s NDP, which only made a bad situation worse.

NMG wrote:- “We need to start having a larger dialogue and we have to get away from this “bubble mentality” that everything is done in isolation and that it has no impact on anyone else. What does an “x percent” raise for teachers or nurses mean for the overall picture? How does an “x percent” tax cut for corporations and high income earners impact government revenues? What can we afford, where do we find the money to pay for it and how do we allocate it to our various needs? Is it wise to spend 1 billion dollars on a new roof for BC place if we can’t even fund some of the basic services?”
——————————————-

You may not realise it, NMG, but you just fell into the same morass you started out so well above in advising that we should avoid.

It is only natural that most people think of ‘money’ as something that’s always fixed in quantity, and treat it as if it were governed by the laws of nature.

It isn’t, but we’ve been well conditioned to view it that way. To believe that if some one party has too much money, this must necessarily mean that another , or other, parties must have too little. This would, and could, only be true if ‘money’ WERE actually always fixed in quantity. Which it definitely is NOT.

Consequently, when we fail to understand this, we get nowhere, (except, ultimately, universally poorer). And waste our time fighting over how to ‘re-distribute’ a collective insufficiency (of money). When we’d be much further ahead if we asked WHY is there any necessity whatsoever for this ‘insufficiency’ of mere “figures” that are supposed to properly REFLECT the overall physical realities of ‘production’ and ‘consumption’ to ever occur in the first place?

We definitely DO need to start having that “larger dialogue”, because, as you said, everything that’s done certainly does have an impact on everything else. But lets not restrict that “larger dialogue” by pre-supposing, erroneously, that the current rules and conventions regarding ‘money’ are set in stone by some kind of God on high, and must never be questioned, even, let alone altered to better serve our needs.

“Money”, in the way it operates in our times, is a ‘system’. A complex and complicated one, to be sure, but like all ‘systems’ one originally devised to serve Man, not force his service to those who currently control it and use it, consciously or unconsciously, to divide and conquer.

So …. only one of the inputs is salary.

Other inputs include class sizes, length of school year, education level and quality of teachers, teaching material quality, family support of student … and many more.

Output is gained knowledge and skills as well as retention of those.

The real world measure of that is the capacity to be productive in society.

The question becomes, how does one measure that? Perhaps the GDP of a country? I think that would be fair as long as a country’s GDP is not dominated by a natural advantage such as sitting on oil, located in a warm climate with lots of beaches, etc.

So, an immediate measure, not very application oriented, but certainly knowledge, skill and retention oriented are standardized testing.

Here is a recent OECD measure.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

Canada’s scores of 65 countries.
Reading = 3rd
Math = 5th
Science = 5th

Pretty darn good at that measure.

How about provincial?
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/students+rank+distant+fourth+math+skills/5777468/story.html

MATH
Quebec = 1
Ontario = 2
Alberta = 3
BC=4

SCIENCE
Ontario = 1
Alberta = 2
BC = 3

READING
Ontario = 1
Alberta = 2
BC = 3

It also said that Quebec and Ontario students scored the highest in problem solving. Strange that problem solving is hardly ever mentioned when that is one of the key life skills, in my opinion.

With Quebec being an anomoly in math, Ontario, Alberta and BC do happen to reflect the relative rates of pay. I suspect if we looked at classroom size and other workload realted factors, we may also see a similar relationship.