The Reverse Petition At City Hall- True Democracy In Action
Wednesday, March 7, 2012 @ 3:45 AM
Eric Allen has a tough job ahead of him. Allen is the point man who is trying to have the reverse petition dumped on the matter of the Dike for River Road in Prince George.
The City Of Prince George was to borrow a further $3,600,000 that would finish off a project to have a dike built north of River Road. The raising of River Rd at the time of construction was supposed to accomplish the problem of flooding from the Nechako River, we are now being told we need two dikes.
I say a further 3.6 mill because we don’t know exactly what the city has spent buying up the residential properties along the south side of the Nechako , but $2,500,000 is coming from the land development fund.
The whole project will cost $11.5 with the Feds and the province putting up $5.4 million. The question however remains and that is the thrust of Allen’s pitch, why do we need the additional dike in the first place?
It could, I suppose, be argued that the new District Energy System must be protected if it is to provide heat which originates on the north side of the CN tracks. If that however is the case, why would you build the facility there in the first place? CN’s new 20 million dollar container facility will receive added protection with a double dike, but again if there is a flood problem why put the facility there in the first instance?
It will cost $279,000 dollars a year to service that debt and for what? The councillors who argued that a major flood could hit city hall, had better get off the food and drink they serve at the hall.
We have had two major floods in the last decade, both during the winter, and both, surprise, surprise, when a major dump of water from the Skins Lake spillway has taken place. How about a couple hundred bucks in a trip to see the folks at Rio Tinto with a view to having them cut the practise out?
If we need more mitigation work, the old river channel heads right through Cottonwood Park, city owned land by the way, and cuts off the problem at the confluence of the Fraser and Nechako. That whole job could have been done for a $100,000 dollars, if we in fact need some more flood protection.
The more you think about what the city would like to do, the more you can’t help get annoyed with what is proposed and you can understand the frustration of Allen. The problem is that the powers that be didn’t like the residents dumping the Terasen Gas deal and they lobbied to have the bar raised from 5% to 10% making it much tougher to reach the goal in the alternative approval process. That exercise could easily be termed democracy at its best.
Finally those Councillors who , during the election campaign, said they didn’t approve the Reverse Petition as a means of grabbing some more money from the taxpayers seem to have lost their tongue of late.
I’m Meisner and that’s one man’s’ opinion.
Comments
“It could, I suppose, be argued that the new District Energy System must be protected if it is to provide heat which originates on the north side of the CN tracks. If that however is the case, why would you build the facility there in the first place?”
All that could be argued … but without knowing how those facilities have been built to address protection during flooded times, the arguments are kind of useless.
Let me see. The Civic Centre was knowingly built on the old 200 year flood plane and the main floor sits about 15cm or so below that. Of course, with the new 200 year flood plane that has increased considerably. In fact, all buildings in the Civic plaza are are in the flood plane – Pool, Gallery, Library, portions of the Inn, old RCMP station (ever wonder why there are stairs going up to the main floor)
The Courthouse is the same as far as its basement facilites go. But, its main floor is accessed though a platform raised from the street level. The street is below the flood plane.
Notice the new building which replaces the old B&B music. It is raised above the street level and has its main floor above the old flood plane.
P;aza 400, of course, is also below the old flood plane as well as the new flood plane, as is the ex Gaming Centre with its new underground parkade.
City Hall, too, is in the flood plane, but has a raised main floor. I do not know how any basement might be protected.
Just think of the southern ends of Dominion, Brunswick, Victoria, and the southern edge of Parkwood Mall and a short part fo Winnipeg as it dips below 15th as being in the flood plane.
Just because a building is sitting in a flood plane, does not mean that damage, or significant damage may occur.
The Symphony Hall in Cologne, Germany not only sits in the flood plane, but is entirely underground. During floods, if it was built in an unprotected fashion, the water would rise enough inside the building to submerge all the seats. The foundation system ties it down to prevent the building from floating up with the hydrostatic pressure.
So, get over it, do your homework on every building sitting in the flood plane because the degree of protection will vary.
I will be signing this petition. It’s time for the insanity to stop.
I will be signing this petition. However, if it is successful it will stop only this insanity. Other insanities will continue, like the costly, unnecessary and potentially harmful fluoridation of our tap water with the toxic industrial effluent hexafluorosilicic acid.
For those who really want to get to the heart fo the matter, they should get after the province to change the Act which allows the AAP in the first place.
The cities are not likely to do it so the citizens will have to work at it. There might be interest across the province.
I am absolutely shocked. Finally someting I agree with johnnybelt. Only I won’t be signing the petition this time cuz I am no longer a registered voter in PG. I sold my houses and moved out so I would not have to pay any more tax for services we never got or needed. Paying 700 a year for them to pick up my empty garbage can? I refuse to pay for that and for snow plowing that my street rarely, if ever saw. Congratulations johnnybelt
Funny, as I remember, the water mostly seeps undergound and comes up. I don’t see how a dike will prevent that at all.
Rivers in flood will often find a new path to flow and open it up. It doesn’t matter whats on top of the new course.
The river won’t flood if it is not restricted. Hydrostatic pressure will only increase if there is a blockage causing the pressure.
Common sense (not found at City Hall) tells you to clear the debris, remove the excess gravel.
gus: “For those who really want to get to the heart fo the matter, they should get after the province to change the Act which allows the AAP in the first place.”
Baby steps. And besides, I think it might be very hard to get rid of the AAP since it is so effective in getting the powers that be what they want.
I still say that the odds are stacked against getting enough signatures, but I hope I’m wrong. The electorate is mostly apathetic, and that’s why the AAP works so well.
I wonder how many people who will make money on the construction of this dike are campaign contributors. The only reason I can see politicians going against the wishes of the people is because they or people they owe a favour to stand to gain monetarily from this.
My guess would be that if the **second dike** is somewhat effective. That is, if it stops some flooding and seepage South of River Road, through CN Rail, and Lakeland to the Eastern side of the City, which is somewhat debatable, because the reports indicate that seepage would be slowed down, but not necessarily stopped.
However if a significant amount of water was in fact stopped along river road, then the question is. Where will this water go. My understanding is that it will back up the river, putting more pressure for ground water seepage further up, and of course it will go to the North Side of the river and flood North of Pulp Mill road, and in fact could, block that road altogether. Keep in mind that all the industry on Pulp Mill Road rely on this road being kept open for business, plus emergency vehicles. It is the only access to industry in the area, 1500 or more people work in that area, and all hell could break loose if they were stranded .
The problems caused by flooding Pulp Mill road could, and probably would be more serious than the present flooding on the South side of River Road.
In any event it is a huge expenditure on 3.5 kilometres of road, that may or may not have any benefits. Thats the whole point.
Upgrade to River Road 2010. Provincial, Federal and Municipal money. $7 Million Dollars.
Dike on North side of River road,2012 Prov/Fed/Municipal Money, including $2.5 Million from the land reserve. $11.4 Million.
Total expenditure (more or less) $18.4 Million plus $10 Million in interest over 20 years.
This is a huge expenditure, and for what??
Why didnt the City do the River Road upgrade and the diking system all a once??
I’ll tell you why. Because the first $3.5 Million came from the Federal Government’s Asia Pacific Gateway Corridor Initiative Transportation Infrastructure Fund, and the $5.4 Million came from the Building Canada Fund,and the Provincial-Territorial Base Fund and these funds had strings attached, and completion dates for spending the money.
Why was all the **flood mitigation money targeted to River Road??? The consultants report showed 7 areas along the Nechako that required some sort of flood mitigation.
At the end of the day, we need to get enough signatures to force this issue to a referendum, then win the referendum, and force the City to reconsider this whole project.
Have a nice day.
But: “The only reason I can see politicians going against the wishes of the people is because they or people they owe a favour to stand to gain monetarily from this.”
No. Read the article again and what Palopu says. It’s about municipalities (and PG isn’t the only one) who are addicted to federal funding for unnecessary projects.
Exactly – stop giving away Federal money and stop “creating” local projects that would meet the “requirements” for funding.
I challenge the City of PG to maybe try and sit back and focus on present problems, like our current infrastructure. Stop wasting money on “what if” scenarios or trying to win an engineering award.
Spend the money on dredging – put the money towards ensuring the fish & wildlife are protected – but don’t build a dike, that area already looks like crap with the road up high and buildings basically boarded up and abandoned.
That area of the city could be more than what it is with some creative thinking.
Its partly about that, but it’s also about how many of thier friends businesses they can keep busy with taxpayer funded pie in the sky projects like this. This council is predominately made up of business owners and I am sure somewhere in there thier votes are swayed by helping out a good ole friend or two.
Sent an e-mail to city hall asking for the link to the AAP form. The answer I received is the AAP form is not posted on the city website yet but you are welcome to come to city hall.
I think it will be available online next week.
Talked to the City Clerk. They are required to have the AAP on line by March 14th and staff are presently working on it. He states that they are trying to get it done sooner.
Keep your eye on the site, or if you are downtown pick up some copies from the 5th floor, (or maybe the front desk)
Make extra copies as needed, sign up as many people as possible and deliver to City Hall, by hand, mail, or fax. I got 10 signed to-day in my spare time, will get more to-morrow.
5241 to go.
5240 Palopu, count me in.
Picture this though, a nice big bronze statue on top of the dike of Shari Green welcoming Simon Fraser ashore.
What about the rumour that if Kemano 2 is completed there will be a lot less water flowing into the Nechako????
Seems that scenario would not likely result in any more serious floods from the Nechako to the city……..
I too am a proponent of the dredging principle, but it would have to extend well out into the Fraser, or turn and dredge down past the train bridge and Goat Island into the deeper water.
metalman.
I think I keep standing here banging my head against the wall as I watch some of these posts.
Less water flowing means
1. lower hydraulic load
2. lower velocity
3. more siltation (silt and gravel deposits)
That will not help the situation. If a blockage occurs, such as an ice jamb, the difference in the rate that water will rise to a flooded stage behind the icedam will not be that big. The time it takes will be increased by a matter of minutes to a few hours, no more. The level to which the water will rise to a flood stage will be a factor of the height of the ice dam and total area of openings which allow water to flow through the dam.
As it says in the attached link “Under normal circumstances, the major factor affecting stream capacity and stream competence is channel slope.”
No matter how far you go, and this would have to include the Fraser downstream of the confluence, the channel slope is the channel slope. Digging deeper in certain spots makes no change to that.
The place one would have to start digging is the first set of rapids downstream which impede capacity by blocking the channel slope. Remove those and grade the channel flow. In fact, unless the gradient is full of larger rock deposits, the channel will grade itself over time, more quickly during seasonal high velocity water flow.
http://science.jrank.org/pages/6541/Stream-Capacity-Competence.html
I think a few days on an ocean beach with waves rolling in at high tide and working with a pail and shovel to create some streamlets might give people some practical understanding of this.
As they say, all the basic lifeskills we learn are learned in the sandbox. ;-)
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