I would think all of the folks who are pushing for the Performing Arts Center (on the taxpayers’ dime) must be starting to sweat a little.

Because we love to hear from you Racer :)

I think that Sherry Green has the same problem as Gordon Campbel had when he forgot to mention that he was going to sell BCRailway and introduce the HST on the liberal electoral platform. Do you think I am wrong?

I wonder why the form has to be in a pdf format? Can’t the same form be put out in JPEG or something else as long as the wording is the same?

I have three new computers all with Windows 7 and for some reason I can’t get the pdf file to print… it just freezes up the printer. I can print other pdf files and have never had this problem before, but I can’t print the city web page pdf files.

Then the city hall isn’t open on the weekends… might be down to the last minute before I’m able to get one of these forms in…..

“I would think all of the folks who are pushing for the Performing Arts Center (on the taxpayers’ dime) must be starting to sweat a little.”

The artistic dances we are forced to perform with our vehicles while desperately trying to dodge the worst potholes definitely eliminate any need for a Performing Arts Center.

That new condo development is going to push the PAC forward very soon. This should be an interesting fight. Once all these condos sell maybe Clint and Rod could lend us the money to build it. Maybe part of the plan???

I can’t download this either, why can’t we just go and sign somewere?

“I would think all of the folks who are pushing for the Performing Arts Center (on the taxpayers’ dime) must be starting to sweat a little.”

Nope. From the very beginning that group has expected, even encouraged, a referendum, if needed. But unlike this dyke, a PAC would have a robust funding structure where only a third or less would be paid by the city taxpayers.

So it may be comparing apples to oranges.

A PAC also has a completely different business case, too. Ongoing employment and economic spinoffs, cultural progress, tourism, etc., etc.

People can sign the form at the Northern Hardware on Third Ave. There is a desk set up there and will be there everyday until April 24th. This is especially convenient for those who cannot get to City Hall during the regular week, and who cannot Print off the form.

In addition Eric Allen has stated in all the news releases that he would deliver forms to those who require them, if they phone 250 564 4531.

The clown at city hall who does the website is an artist at making everything obscure when it comes to public input. I once emailed him about that and he was quite cocky and seemed to take pride in his ability to hide information from us.

The AAP should be scraped immediately it’s just another slimy process brought in by council to give them a easier avenue to pass items they want but us as citizens don’t want.

As for the dyke, now that the city has wasted more of our tax dollars buying up all the land along the river they can they are trying to get us to pay for a dyke to safeguard another one of the reficulous purchases.

I still don’t understand why we are trying to be made cover the cost of the dyke that will protect the businesses that built on a Flood Plain. They knew the risks when they built and now we are expected to flip the bill for them losing the bet against the river flooding them out ?

Bohemian, a third or less for the PAC would still amount to probably 15 Mil at least and then there would be the operating costs which we would have to pay for as well. So it’s not apples to oranges, it would be a lot more wasted money.

At a time when the city cannot properly fund the existing infrastructure, adding $300,000 a year for operating costs to fund a PAC is not realistic(never mind the borrowing costs).

By its own admission the city is spending only 50% of what is required to properly maintain the roads, throwing the yearly plan out the window in the spring in order to address the latest crisis section of pavement.Fail to plan is a plan to fail.

In the not to distant future this will reach a tipping point and there will have to be a huge increase in taxes or substantial cuts in services(shutter a pool or rink for example) to have somewhat drivable roads.

Now Skakun is talking about a gas tax in order to pay for road repair citing the user pay mantra(can 10 cents a flush be far behind). Don’t have a problem with this as long as the tax on my house is reduced or it just becomes another revenue stream for them to fritter away.

A few years ago when Zurowski was on council did we not approve a 4% hike for road repair? I wonder if we are still paying the extra and what it is funneled into now because it sure isn’t the roads.

Supertech … I agree with you about the City’s web site regarding. It looks much better than it did and more information is available than before, but it is still a nightmare to find things.

I have no problem printing the pdf form. There will always be people who cannot do one thing or the other with their computers. It is the nature of the beast. As people have posted, there are other methods to getting a form to City Hall.

While it might be convenient to print off a form donloaded from the net, it would be even more convenient had the City provided a form that can be filled out once it is donloaded on the computer, press send, and it gets sent back to the City.

This way, one has to print it, fill it out, scan it and attach it to an email to city hall, or send it through by fax, or bring it to the hall.

But hey, it is better than last time.

Now, if they can only figure out a way to vote by computer or phone, we would not have such high costs to go through that process and kiss the AAP goodbye.

I would think that by now Council would have requested administration to find a method of doing that. Maybe they have and I did not notice the request.

“A few years ago when Zurowski was on council did we not approve a 4% hike for road repair?”

I believe that we were borrowing money for road repair. The tax lift was to get rid of borrowing for that purpose. Anyone have a different recollection?

You know, it would be nice if there was a way of keeping track of these different allocations to make sure that the City is doing what it said it was doing. I do nto think that is part of the annual financial auditing process. If not, it ought to be.

“cultural progress” .. what the hell is that? Some sort of PC way to say artsy fartsy?

“Now Skakun is talking about a gas tax in order to pay for road repair citing the user pay mantra” .. I thought we already had one of those? Do we need another?

“a way of keeping track of these different allocations”

Separate line item on tax statement like the winter games for any special increase. That would make it hard for council and city staff to divert the monies elsewhere and these increases to become part of general funds.

“At a time when the city cannot properly fund the existing infrastructure, adding $300,000 a year for operating costs to fund a PAC is not realistic”

How much does it cost to operate the Playhouse? That would disappear for one example of transfer from one pie to another another rather than new dollars.

Nevertheless, I think that most people would agree that this is not the time to build a PAC. The real question is, when will we be able to build one and how ready will we be to take advantage of an opportunity when it comes along?

Kamloops’ Mayor was re-elected with that as one of the platforms. They are moving ahead with almost zero comment from the citizens there, other than will it get built downtown or on the south shore. Quite different from PG where no one talks about it.

Here is a letter to the editor in Kamloops that in some ways matches the PG situation.
http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20120128/KAMLOOPS0303/120129806/-1/kamloops/performing-arts-centre-worth-the-investment

Seven comments to that letter, some negative as we would see on here an in the Citizen, some positive.

The PAC ought to be discussed in the community, but people here do things differently and, in my opinion, it is not the best for our psyche.

Don’t forget to get your 18 year old teens/grandkids to vote. The age to vote is “at least 18”.

To build on this I want the viewers to know that this is being put out there for discussion. I feel I have a responsibility to ask this question. I have received a lot of feedback so far and am look so am putting this out there. I am looking forward to the public debate regarding this tax. We are spending $ 3.5 million on road repairs and have been told that we need to spend $7 million to just keep up.

To start with I feel the City needs to do a detailed review of our asphalt to make sure we are not throwing good money after bad and that we are getting value for the tax dollars spent on road repairs.

We are also doing a core review of our services to see what kind of saving might be found with hopes in my opinion those savings could go into road repairs.

The idea is a user pay tax and I have had people call me upset with the fact some households have several cars while others have a single vehicle or take public transit yet pay property taxes the same as all other house owners. Businesses pay higher taxes than home owners and fee that a tax like this would be more fair. Some people also are upset that the people that live outside City limits do not pay local taxes to the City for road repairs. As you can see there is a number of views regarding this idea.

As many people know the Province of BC charges a fuel tax of 14cents for gasoline and a separate tax for diesel for all fuel sold in the Province. If you look at the number of liters of fuel sold in Prince George it is safe to say that the Province in 2007 took in well over 20 million dollars in gas taxes and in 2011 that total would have been higher. If we want to pave more roads we need to get the Province to share some of the money they take in gas taxes every year.

Brian Skakun

For the old timers/stuck-in-the-mudders… Cultural progress…

Saloon -> Vaudeville -> Performing Arts Centre

One-room schoolhouse -> University

Cave paintings -> Art Galleries

Illiteracy -> Monks transcribing -> Printing press -> Libraries

I know many people don’t want to believe it, but economic and human health progress goes hand-in-hand with cultural and technological progress (ideas having sex):

http://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex.html

I am not quite sure what is wrong with “artsy fartsy”. We can use that just as well as we can use “redneck” or “yahoo” ….

Did you know that culture is more than just “artsy fartsy” stuff. Culture is eating McDs for dinner, drinking beer at a pub, playing hockey, drag racing on the streets, watching a little league baseball game, staying home an vegging ……

Everything we do speaks about the culture of our society as opposed to the culture of other societies.

As far as what “cultural progress is” I really do not know. Culture is what it is. In my opinion culture should not be rated as one against another.

The definition of culture I prefer to use is: “cultures are complexes of learned behavior patterns and perceptions”.

The “artsy fartsy” notion of culture is far too limiting.

“Now Skakun is talking about a gas tax in order to pay for road repair citing the user pay mantra”

There we go again … taxes put on at one time to pay for one thing, then changing down the road (pun intended) to be used for another thing.

My impression has been from the first time I started driving and paying for my own gasoline that the tax on gasoline was to take care of the road infrastructure. That, in my mind, would be user pay.

If that is no longer the case, I would like to know about it.

I am also under the impression that some of that gas tax is now being returned to this and other cities. I believe it is just over $3million that the feds have guaranteed (not that federal guarantees mean much more than the words do as they float away with the next breeze). HOwever, I also believe that the money is not earmarked for anything and simply goes into general revenue.

So, again there is no strict accountability, in my opinion. I like lonesome sparrow’s suuggestion.

Saloon -> Vaudeville -> Performing Arts Centre -> Streaming Performances

One-room schoolhouse -> University -> Khan Academy

Cave paintings -> Art Galleries -> Google Art Project

Illiteracy -> Monks transcribing -> Printing press -> Libraries -> e Reader

Councillor Skakun … tell me about the Federal gas tax money that PG has been receiving. Is it earmarked for road rehabilitation?

You were silent about that.

Like others, I am bothered by the suggestion that we add yet another few cents to gas or propose yet another tax to maintain something that our tax dollars should have been maintaining to begin with.

As for the PAC, I am interested in seeing what kind of business case the proponents have to sell the idea of borrowing another $15M of local tax dollars to build. If it goes to referendum, it will fail.

http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/news/118209209.html

Mayor turns attention to performing arts centre

“As many of the projects for the Tournament Capital program start coming off the city’s books in the coming years, Peter Milobar wants to turn his attention to the next big project — a performing arts centre.

“That’s probably realistically the next one,” Milobar said, adding it’s time to start the discussion because such a project could still be five years away from completion.

“I don’t think anyone should try and underestimate the value the arts bring to the community.”

He cautioned the mostly business crowd to not be afraid of the planning process, noting the project isn’t going to be showing up on a tax bill any time soon.

=======================================
cave painting > graffiti > sidewalk artists

campfire dancing > street buskers

BTW, those who enjoy playing hockey or watching others playing hockey are just as elitist as are those who enjoy playing the flute in an orchestra or those watching and listening to an orchestra playing.

And yes, to those who watch and listen, there are some hockey elitists who prefer to watch and listen to the real thing in a real multimillion dollar arena just as there are some music elitists who prefer to watch and listen to the real thing in a multi million dollar arena.

Variety is the spice of life …..

And then there are those who participate in their own home and shut themselves off from the real world and move into the world of virtual reality.

Those are the ones to watch out for because they pay their $50/month to access the world through TV and think they are contributing to society.

gus, I sure hope the PAC proponents aren’t basing their whole business case on pitting the ‘hockey crowd’ vs. the ‘arts crowd’. Pretty weak, imo.

I think it should be mandated by law that the basic bills of the city(roads, sewer, water,garbage) are covered before one penny is spent elsewhere. The elected and salaried leaders of the city have shown that they cannot do this without help. Then we would get a true cost of any extras and decide if we want to increase taxes to pay for them.

This would be like a credit councillor ensuring that the hydro and gas bills are paid for an individual whose spending has run amok and is facing bankruptcy. Why have a shiny new car if you are coming home to a cold dark house.

=================================
cave painting > graffiti > sidewalk artists -> sidewalk paintings covered by graffiti;-)

I mostly agree with lonesome sparrow on additional progress, but there is nothing like a live performance. Plus the stream has to come from somewhere…

As for e-readers – you can “borrow” e-books at your Library…

“To start with I feel the City needs to do a detailed review of our asphalt to make sure we are not throwing good money after bad and that we are getting value for the tax dollars spent on road repairs.”
Councillor Skakun,
Does this review not already exist in the form of the “Pavement Condition Management System”? I think this was developed about 10 to 12 years ago.
I believe this came from a report that reviewed our road conditions and then recommended courses of action for repair methods, budgetary planning and future condition goals. I also believe the data was updated a number of times as the road conditions declined.
Was this report and proposed “system” ignored, or was it a complete failure?
Are the people who headed this project still with the city, or were their positions “Cut”?
Was it a conscious decision a few years back to “just pave” and abandon most of the needed base repairs in order to spread the budget over more km’s?
If this is the case, I don’t believe we, as tax payers will be getting long term value for our dollars.

“cave painting > graffiti > sidewalk artists -> sidewalk paintings covered by graffiti”

Yes, that would be the difference between sidewalk art in Europe and North America … ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki-dB_i0p80

The new vogue … 3D art as seen on one vantage point with the artist in the picture …. away from that single point it gets real interesting …. LOL

and finally for pg

cave painting > graffiti > sidewalk artists -> sidewalk paintings covered by graffiti-> the whole works covered by sidewalk pizza

PAC= Modify the Multiplex to perform your arts! That’s what every artist that comes here does. They can already server beer there, it would make better use of the building.

Better yet Cirque du la tent! It works for Cirque it should do as a PAC.

Road toll at the edge of town. Add alittle to the people that can afford to fly. Just a dollar or two.

Gas is already high enough. You put a tax on gas to fix the roads you won’t have to worry about the roads. There will be less cars on them to beat them up.

“I sure hope the PAC proponents aren’t basing their whole business case on pitting the ‘hockey crowd’ vs. the ‘arts crowd’. Pretty weak, imo.”

I agree …. not too sure about the other way around though ….

We need to provide for all special interest groups the best we can. Being more “transparent” (I hate that word) or more specifically more accountable to identify to the best of our ability what we are receiving for our money is where it needs to start. A good core services review will provide us with that. Commonly known as “value for money”.

Once we have a better handle on that, we will know whether certain “special interest groups” (and there are quite a lot of those – we all belong to at least one) are better served than others. After that, we can figure out whether some should be subsidized more than others and who should be the primary decision maker of that.

If we have an equitable system in place, I will accept whatever those special interest groups that I belong to will get. Believe me, I belong to many.

I drive a car. I have to avoid potholes. Those people, even though they are a majority, are actually a special interest group to which those who have a condominum on top of a hotel right next to their place of work may not belong to, at least not to the same level of importance to them.

And yes, I like good quality air … that’s another special interest group … and a walkable downtown … and some older building to be nurtured and kept as a part of our history as they are in other commnities …. and clean streets, sidewalks, boulevards …. and waterfront development ….. and tracks removed from the center of the city …… and good health care facilities without travelling …. I could go on and on …. and I undeerstand it costs money and I am willing to pay more taxes …..

I am interested in a world which has moved on past the survival of the fittest individual and is dealing with the survival of the fittest commnity at each progressive level …. neighbourhood, municipality, economic region, province, country, continent ……

What happened to the original story? Most comments here seem to be better suited to the friday free for all.

“What happened to the original story?”

Three little letters

P

A

C

or for gus

P hook

A line

C sinker:-P

Taxes need not be excessive they require management and Sheri green is not that kind of person. I would like to thank Mr. Skakun for being brave enough as to express some of his ideas. We don’t have to agree with them, but they are his ideas. Wouldn’t it be nice if our mayor could follow the example of councilor Brian Skakun?

Taxes need not be excessive they require management and Sheri green is not that kind of person. I would like to thank Mr. Skakun for being brave enough as to express some of his ideas. We don’t have to agree with them, but they are his ideas. Wouldn’t it be nice if our mayor could follow the example of councilor Brian Skakun?

While my first choice for road repairs would have to be a drastic cut in spending by “the City”, Mr Skakuns idea of a tax on gas is not unreasonable. (My household has two vehicles.) The roads HAVE to be fixed, and the money to do so HAS to come from somewhere. There should be some discussion on how this will be done, and that discussion has to start somewhere.
All the adults in my home submitted our AAP forms today. I don’t think I have read this anywhere, but City Hall has the forms ready to fill out on the main floor, at the desk where you would pay utilities and dog licenses etc.

Another tax is hardly an idea. The city got us into this mess by pissing away our taxes so it is up to them to figure out a way to fix it.

The dike issue was kcnown befoe the municipal election. It was not put on the ballot because the tax payers of PG were not to have a voice on such a (pet) project. It is important that we do have a voice when such an expensive project is being proposed. I encourage all to fill out the AAP form before April 24. Democracy is is only ours if we enforce it.

So how do we go about getting rid of this AAP? I understand it is Provincial Legislation. Could we not vote as a City to prohibit the City from using it?
It is really only a very devious device.