The City is spending about $3 million per year on the roads.

I seem to recall that under the Terasen lease-back deal, the City gets about $1.4 million a year. All of this money was to go towards roads. So really, the City is only committing $1.6 million out of tax revenue to the roads. That’s not much.

I took a drive to the top of Foothills yesterday. Sections of this road were repaved last year, but corners were cut. The sections that were repaved should have lasted 20 years, but they are already falling apart.

If the City is not going to fix the roads right, then we’re not going to get any further ahead.

Let’s figure out what is wrong with the quality of the asphalt. Then let’s figure out what the best methods of crack sealing and pothole repair are. What are the best methods practiced by the winter climate cities which are having acceptable results?

How is throwing more money at the problem without identifying the root of the problem going to make the slightest difference in the short and the long term?

One thing is for sure: If the deciders don’t get a handle on this situation they might as well forget about running in the next municipal election.

Are the computers at City Hall ALREADY headed for the electronic recycling heap again?

I see they have just advertised another management HR type of position, this is to fill a gap made when they created another Management HR position of sucession planning. Another $80,000+benefits position.

As for the computers, the city replaces around 1/3 of their computers every year and yes, they go to recycling though I did hear talk that they were going to drop them into some of the bigger potholes to help fill them.

No question the roads are bad, have been bad for a long time and seem to be getting worse by the day. Before throwing more money at the problem, let’s take a hard look at whom and how the City’s road program in being managed. Mr. Bates and his managemnt team have to be held accountable for the results they have delivered to the tax payers of PG.

If Bates is looking for an escape plan I hear Quesnel is looking for a new City Manager.

We’ve had numerous tax increases over the past few years specifically for road repairs. Whose pockets did those tax increases end up in? Obviously not the asphalt or paving companies!

Sounds like a reasonable offer Ben. Now we will see what council does…… or doesn’t do.

Myself, I think council is scared to go out on a limb!! I think they have to realize that just doing some tinkering here and there isn’t going to do much. We need drastic action and getting the 2 cent tax on fuel is one step that has to be taken.

The next step is that special levy Ben is talking about. We can’t just add half a million and call it a day. We need $5M and some drastic work to get the roads up to par!!!

Next, make sure no more sprawl happens because now we are seeing the effects. 80,000 people cannot support 600 km’s of roadways. We need density to be a more efficient city.

It is not just the paved roads that are a problem. The school bus is not going down one road in the Haldi area because the gravel road is so soft the bus is in danger of sinking out of sight.

They say it is too soft to grade…gee I wonder if there is a drainage issue that lets the road get that saturated. They seem surprised that we get a spring run off EVERY year and frost WILL come out as it warms up.

Who at city hall gave the go ahead to spend a million dollars for a computer maintenance management system at the same time that the financial system is also being upgraded. Total spending on computer related items 2011-2015 $7,000,000.00……$9300 per employee!
The IT department must have a photo of the city Miss manager dressed as Little Bo Peep in the middle of a herd of ewes.

I have the answer to the city paving problems. The problem has been sitting in ront of our eyes since the begining. the answere to the cities paving problems or lack there of is the mayor and council. The tax payers pay the wages and apparently they are too heigh. So why do we the tax payers give city hall an unpaid leave of absence and move the city hall down to the YRB yard until the roads sewers and sidewalks are completed. When this is done to our satisfaction….I say “our satisfaction” because we are the bosses and we pay for the infastructure, but when this undertaking is done then send the road foreman over to city hall and bring in the holliday people and put them to work under the watchfull eye of the ro0ad foreman untill they are all sufficiently back on track of running the city. I know this is a long drawn out procedure but it beats the alternative.

One of the problems is that at least some Councillors do not understand the role of Council and the role of Administration.

This Counciil is so used to micromanaging that they actually think they are responsible for managing the City’s operations not the City Manager and his upper management team.

There is a total lack of communication between this Council and Administration.

Council reduces an expenditure budget and the administration does not come back with a plan of how to accommodate that till after the fact.

Council wants to play winter games in PG and the City Manager does not warn them that it will mean cuts to normal City services and reduction in standards.

Create a petition to have the ALL the roads fixed. I’d sign it in a heart beat even if it included a tax increase.

“the City Manager does not warn them that it will mean cuts to normal City services”

And for this the City Miss manager is paid as much as the mayor and most of council combined. About a grand every day he is at his desk. Bates is clearly in over his head and it is time for some new blood in this position and not an empty suit.

Lots of coin for roads if council was not so busy buying up property downtown that no one else wants.
Sell of the inventory even at a loss. 2.5 milion for the old PG hotel and another million to clean up the site.
PG now has a so called energy system that will burn natural gas for the foreseeable future. 15 million dollar project that has absolutely no pay back and private industry would never touch. We will never know how much over budget the projected ended up costing the taxpayer.
A new Nissan Leaf for 50 grand and the need to spend another 50 grand on a charging system.
City administration building for a cool 3 million.
Add in the winter games cost to the taxpayer. The taxpayer picks up the tab to satisfy the ego’s of a few people who have no regard for the taxpayer and his or her ability to pay.
Lots of money for roads if council would just forget the feel good, photo op projects for the next 20 years.

Already we got a tax hike in 2009 or 08. I do remember that thing being added into our tax bill at that time. Since then the roads have not been fixed. So that just went to all these things mentioned above. Winter gomes etc. Air above a parkade? I moved out of PG for this very reason. It don’t matter how much the tax is. Could be thousands more and still would not satisfy the GREED of these overpaid useless managers and there ilk. If you gave them a million today tomorrow they would want 2 million. It is corruption at it’s best and since no one is willing to protest or do anything they will just keep taking more from us all.

Bates has Council and the Mayor wrapped around his little finger. He sets it up so that Council gets the blame for every one of these operations decisions.

As a result, Council has gotten itself roped into dealing with matters that have impact on daily operations instead of long term planning.

Where is our mid and long range roads plan? When someone says we need $7million a year to do proper maintenance, what is Council’s reaction? I heard none. Maybe I missed it.

The problem is that the more of these kinds of things happen – dike project setback, roads maintenance failure, parks going to weed, etc. the more administrative time is lost to backtracking and making new plans and upsetting a bunch of people along the way resulting in more and more morale problems at City Hall that effective and efficient work suffers … and unit costs keep on rising.

There are some observations made here that are interesting. And some that are simply not true.

If we are to really fix this problem we better start asking more questions and truely understand the situation we are in before spouting off.

The fact is we already have a dedicated levy for road rehabilitation. Zurowski and Kingsley brought in in years ago and ever year since Council has increased the budget. Well, that was until this year when this Council thought the status quo of 3.5 million would be fine.

And btw Gus, the money for the Canada Games is capital dollars only and those funds are also coming from a special levy on our tax bill. Take a look at your notice. These funds can only be used to pay for the capital upgrades for the games. The vast majority of this money is being used to fix up the Kin center, aruguably the most used public facility in the city and one that was in dire need of repair. So your suggestion that the games are impacting service levels is simply not true.

This isn’t rocket science, if you want the roads fixed you have to be prepared to pay for them. On that topic, we should all look in the mirror because we elected these folks. Not because they said they would spend more on roads but because she said she would cut 10%. So what do you expect from them?

A better question is what did we get? The answer is:
– more tax breaks for big industry and a 4% hike on my property taxes.
– The most expensive study the city has ever undertaken.
– layoffs and service reductions only months after our new mayor stated during her campaign that she could cut 10% in every department without laying people off or reducing service levels.

Oh yeah she also said she would bring in a “hiring freeze”. That promise lastest until she needed a new assistant.

And in doing such a good job in delivering these initiatives, Council thought they should give themselves a 30% increase in pay.

Allowing the City of PG to collect a levy on fuel would not solve any problem. It would only give them the sense that their management of finances is doing just fine. Council must clean up their act and prove to us they are worthy of working “for us” and can manage the city affairs properly.

The road deterioration is caused because water is allowed to infiltrate the pavement and then freeze. The engineers must first realize this or our roads will continue to be in this condition. Patched roads just don’t seal properly. It is now time to rebuild them.

Check out Bunce Rd. and check out the craters!

“Check out Bunce Rd. and check out the craters!”

There are craters everywhere; it’s like we’re on the moon.

I came across a pothole / ditch the other day that was so deep and muddy that I had to turn around and find another route to my destination.

As for computers, there are only two kinds. The ones that are obsolete and the ones they haven’t built yet. As far as the Haldi Road shortcomings go, maybe we just have to wait for the water truck drivers and the folks involved in the Haldi Road School rezoning to go to city hall and start whining too. Who’s yer friend, eh?

Daily routine of the mayor’s executive assistant.

ring….ring…..

hello this is mayor Shari Green’s assistant, may I ask the purpose of your call?

Oh, it’s about the condition of our roads,Ummm, Ummm, I’m sorry the mayor is in a meeting(yah,that’s the ticket) and cannot take your call at this time.

rinse, repeat till quitting time.

Resident:”Lots of money for roads if council would just forget the feel good, photo op projects for the next 20 years.”

That’s why I am against the 2 cents/litre tax increase at the pump! Those increases (if allowed) will never be rescinded again! Aren’t we already paying federal and provincial taxes on fuel, plus a carbon tax?

What good would any extra money do if we don’t first determine why the paving projects have only a one year warranty? What’s wrong with the stuff they use for paving?

“money for the Canada Games is capital dollars only” What the …. money is money. Taxes are taxes, quit with the double speak.

The super moon this weekend happened because the moon is jealous of our craters and wanted a better look at them.

After reading many posts on this subject over the past few weeks, I would like to throw some information out there for whats it’s worth. I have a couple of questions as well.
1. Certain people on staff at the city have known for years that the capital road paving/repair budget is under funded. This information came from a study and subsequent managment program (PCMS)that was paid for years ago. Why were these people/recommendations ignored?
2. Questions have been raised about warranty. While this may be, in part, a good idea, we will pay for it through higher bids while it may not be(in most cases)the problem. I am suggesting that the city is foregoing necessary base and sub base repair in order to get more asphalt on the ground. I have seen that this is the case on a number of recent overlays that should have been rebuilds. Qualified, experience pavers wol dbe very reluctant to warranty overlay work if more substantial work is know to be necessary. My question is: Is the city knowingly foregoing rebuilds in order to get more pavement layed regardless of the long term effects?
3. The Minstry’s and the City’s asphalt mix designs are very similar. So I would not spend much time on the theory that one is better than the other. QC standards and whether or not they are being enforced may be a more worthwhile item to question.
4. Can anyone remember when Columbia Bitulithic was NOT the successful contractor for the City’s paving contract? We have two paving contractors in PG that bid on this work (Pittman Asphalt being the other). While the two companies go head to head for many jobs, why is Pittman NEVER lower when they bid on the City work? Trying not to be a consiracy theorist here, but I think it’s a legit question.
5. The imporance of maintenance of the asphalt surface (or lack thereof)cannot be overstated. While I see some crack sealing and pothole filling from time to time, I see that the current (non capital) maintenance program is not nearly enough. Too many streets are being ignored until they are too far gone for less expesive (life prolonging) maintenance work. In the city’s defence, the worst time of year for blow outs and potholes is obviously the spring, long before local asphalt plants start up for the season. We are always going to encouter spring thaw blow outs, however they can at least be reduced to a managable level with proactive maintenance.
One last question: Could our aging (underground) infrastructure and the fact that there is little money for that too, have something to do with the lack of paving (at least in the downtown area)?
I have a feeling that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
Long winded post, sorry bout that

Number 4 was not meant to be a slam against Columbia Bitulithic, just throwing some question out there. Both companies have done and do excellent work.

Oh ya, I know the city has been allowing a certain amount of recycled asphalt to be added to the mix. Is there any correlation between the ratio of new/recycled in the mix to the premature surface failure we are seeing in the areas it was used?

Mitch2 … you seem to have some learning to do regarding financial matters.

As far as expenses go, capital is for building or acquiring major purchases that last for a longer period of time.

Operating funds are for short periods such as annual payroll, maintenance, etc.

As far as income goes, there are mainly grants and transfers from senior governments as well as municipal taxes, permits and user fees.

Revenue for any capital project that the City pays for all or a part of will come from the local tax base, as will most operating funds. So, as far as who pays for it, it really does not matter whether it is capital or operating. Uncle Ernie does not magically take care of our capital expenditures.

We can either pay extra taxes for future capital projects and salt it away in low interest bonds until we have enough gathered up to pay for the project as it gets built, or we can borrow the money from low interest municipal lending authority funds and build it sooner and increase the taxes after the thing has been built. Or we can do a combination. But, pay for it we must and if we do, then we have to balance our operations with our capital expenditures.

So, when a city decides to put on a celebration and needs to build facilities in order to do that, and build them predominately with local money, one either ups the tax rates or stops spending somewhere else.

With that as a base understanding let me move onto your points.

1.“The fact is we already have a dedicated levy for road rehabilitation. Zurowski and Kingsley brought in in years ago and ever year since Council has increased the budget. Well, that was until this year when this Council thought the status quo of 3.5 million would be fine.”

I believe that happened only because we found out that Kinsley and his famous Council had been borrowing money every year to fix the roads. So, we were not only paying the principle of the money borrowed, but also the interest, be it ever so low. So, the interest payment is actually an operating expense. So, the borrowing for a capital project impacts operating costs in that aspect as well.

This City was trying to avoid the inevitable rise in the cost of maintaining roads by borrowing. Borrowing for maintenance is poor financial planning. Blame previous Administration and Council for getting us into that addiction.

What we really need is to take our heads out of the sand and face the problem head on. We are not the only ones with such an infrastructure problem. The rest of Canada suffers from it as does the USA and countries such as Britain as well. I think in dealing with that globally, socredible’s notions are worth looking at.

2.“And btw Gus, the money for the Canada Games is capital dollars only and those funds are also coming from a special levy on our tax bill. Take a look at your notice. These funds can only be used to pay for the capital upgrades for the games”

Hopefully I can do a btw back at you Mitch2 and you won’t get upset with me for doing that. The BTW is that if we had followed Deborah Munoz’s vote when Council voted on whether to go with a bid or not and voted no on the basis that we could not afford it, then we would not have had that tax increase to borrow $17million or so for the games and borrowed it instead for roads. I think that was the point I was making. I am not sure what point you thought I was making.

It is becoming more obvious to me by the day that we need an infrastructure maintenance and operating plan along with the financial side to it (budget) which will move us through 5 year increments to say 20 year periods which will project the cost to maintain operations to a standard quality level acceptable to this community.

I expect that we have to add onto that a move to get us to that steady state plateau which will no longer see a long term deterioration of our infrastructure and service delivery, but gets us to what I like to call a sustainable operation. You know, that word everyone likes to use but very few really understand what it means and certainly very few understand what it takes to get us to that level. It is evident to me that we are getting further and further away from it.

3.“This isn’t rocket science, if you want the roads fixed you have to be prepared to pay for them.”

It appears to be rocket science to you, Mitch2, since you see nothing wrong with the decision to go after the Games instead of fixing more important infrastructure. Wanna fix Kin 1? You do not need the seats, you do not need large Olympic ice surface, you do not need all the glass. You can use the shell that is there, rip up the concrete and replace the refrigeration and the concrete, make a few changes to the dressing rooms …… Say $5 to $8 million, if that. The get ready to do the same for the next ones. Or, better still, bite the bullet and shut it down until we have fixed the roads and a few other things. Simply put, we have overbuilt for our pocket books, time to shut a few facilities down. Same with the golf course, same with the curling rink, same with the tennis courts.

Good questions VestedInterest.

I think there are locations in the City where the subsurface was not adequately prepared when the original road was put in. I think most would agree College Heights is one of those areas. One may have to rebuild a road in some of those locations.

I find that many “potholes” are actually layer delaminations. A rebuild of a road in that case would be a total waste of money, in my opinion.

http://www.eng.auburn.edu/research/centers/ncat/info-pubs/newsletters/fall-2010/bond-strength-non-destructive-testing.html

Some more pictures of overlay problems. Many of those should look familiar to people driving in this community.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/hfl/summary/mi/03.cfm

User pay like the lower mainland bridges.Let’s impose a few toll points and allow private enterprise to collect. They can mangage our roads for a 5 year contract

Why is it that if you look at most roads built in the 1960’s in the city they for the most part have never been rebuilt and have stood the test of time… but if you look at most roads built late 70’s onward they’ve been repaved multiple times and same recurring problems? Is it the thickness, or is it more to do with the quality of the roadbed?

Tabor for the most part has good drainage, but its horrendous, so I’m not sure it is just an issue of the roadbed and drainage.

grampa: what you are saying about the freeze cycle is partly true. Then we have potholes showing up everywhere, everytime we get a good rain in the summer. No freezing there. The tires going over the unsealed cracks pound the water like an explosion, just like frakking does to rock deep underground. This throws out any loose material and drives the water deeper into the cracks, creating more loose material which then gets thrown out with the next tire going over it.

I think we should give city hall managers an ultimatum. Either quit or put on some coveralls and gloves and get out there for three days a week with shovels to help get the roads fixed!