Whaaaat? Mastrome
teo is saying the Clark government is failing miserable at building the economy?????

Prince George has about the lowest unemployment in the entire country!!!!

I dont care whether you like Clark or not….the numbers are real and the job openings are all over the newspapers and the service provider contractors are having huge success getting people into jobs.

The economy is all about JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, and there are lots of jobs out there at every level of skill.

And oh yes….Mastrometeo of managed to bring her anti pipeline position into her comments….guess we know where she stands on the issue.

I think it’s shameful the Mastrometeo is using this “help one another” event to spout her anti pipeline, anti Clark propaganda.

It is all interconncted based on her web site.

It has had 21 visits since November 14 …. I have never seen traffic that high …. NOT!!!

BTW, is she any different than some of the other organizations which provide food and clothing for those in need? It’s called promoting the cause … whatever that cause might be.

I suppose one can always focus on an issue not connected to the event in order to demean it by association. However, the actual issue is the shortage of support, in this case winter clothing, for people who are not able for some reason to provide their own. The somewhat wider context is the lack of support by a government which claims it puts families first, for families in need.

The fact is that support for people in need has declined and greater reliance is being placed on voluntary support by people who have more. This shows up in the systemic increase in food banks, clothing giveaways and similar, related events.

The provincial governments handling of this issue has clearly been a colossal failure, or it shows a willful contempt for those who need society’s support. Or both, of course.

“I suppose one can always focus on an issue not connected to the event in order to demean it by association”

In my opinion that is the norm. Organizations giving anonymously and without at least some undertone of a message is unusual.

I was under the impression that places like Value Village, Salvation Army, etc. would give out clothing, blankets, etc. for nothing to those who need them even though they also sell items brought to them.

The event described in this article is obviously one whose primary purpose is to make a political statement. Handing out clothing, blankets and hot chocolate is secondary.

First and last sentence are about the purpose of the rally, with all the rest off topic. Clearly this was a politcal rally of the worst kind; grovelling to the public on real issues, while forgetting why they are out there…
Daily I worry about the helpless in our society, but I am not going to use them as a soap box to stand on and rant against the status quo.
Shame on the Northern Womens Forum. For crying out loud, call a spade a spade; but not while in sheeps clothing.
Ron J Davis

The economy is NOT all about “jobs, jobs, jobs”. If it were, then why don’t we destroy every labor saving device invented in the last 300 years and revert to a truly ‘labor’ intensive pre-industrial economy?

One like in days of yore, where “all craft was handicraft”, and a very REAL scarcity of everything stalks the land, even at many times when everyone’s shoulder IS harnessed to the plow?

The problem today is NOT an overall scarcity of product, or of the capacity to produce more of it ~ a capacity already so vast that even in ‘boom’ times we don’t ever use all of it ~ but rather an artificial scarcity of the ‘financial’ means of its distribution,i.e., INCOMES.

Adequate Incomes in the hands of those for whose consumption this vast pool of production was intended if the ever diminishing ‘jobs’ still remaining in its creation are to have any useful functionality at all.

The idea that “no one amongst ye should be allowed to eat unless he has first worked” is a ridiculous holdover from times long gone.

Today those who thirst after a policy of mandatory “full employment”, for reasons far more of a ‘moral’ nature than any of any ‘economic’ one, should ask themselves this:- ” If any man’s continued Production can’t be of any material advantage to himself and his fellow man, then how can his continued Consumption be of any material disadvantage to himself and his fellow man?” Look at the PHYSICAL reality, not the FINANCIAL distortion of it.

Separate the idea of a growth in ‘jobs’ for the sake of ‘jobs’ alone as being a necessary excuse to distribute ‘incomes’. That only leads, and can only ever lead, to a further glut of unsaleable products on markets already bloated with them. The poverty so many face in this country is NOT a primarily ‘physical’ in nature. It is an artificially induced ‘financial’ poverty brought about be a failure to properly address a better means of distribution of the vast and ever growing capability of our overall capacity to produce with ever fewer ‘workers’ actually engaged in all the productive processes. Tying ‘incomes’ solely, or even primarily, to ‘jobs’ under this factual reality is sheer lunacy.

Perhaps it’s well past time we stopped blaming the government or the boogeyman or Enbridge, or our next door neighbour for all our troubles and instead took a good long look in the mirror and asked ourselves, “What can I do to make my lot in life better?” Sure, there are people in dire straits through no fault of their own but there’s also a lot of people who could a lot better if they just started accepting responsibility for their own lives.

I make a terrible socialist… :)

“What can I do to make my lot in life better”

Okay for a society made up of self centered individuals. THAT is one of the problems we have.

How about saying to yourself: “What can I do to make OUR lot in life better?”

Since the gap between the rich and the poor has been ever widening even in Canada and the USA it appears that the drive of those who are interested in making their lot in life better is working.

Time we set our mind for a higher participation rate as well as higher compensation fro those participating which is getting more and more difficult to do since there has been a proliferation of minimum wage “service” jobs to serve those who have the knowledge, skills and social background to exceed their needs.

The last paragraph is another way of saying that those who have the ability to succeed have an inability to be giving.

If we keep going this way we could end up by the end of the century in simply going back to slavery for one or, like India, for example, a caste system of the underprivileged and even untouchables.

:-(

“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.” – Ghandi

“you measure the degree of civilisation of a society by how it treats its weakest members” – Churchill

“a society will be judged by how it treats its weakest members” – Truman

Here is an interesting one from Warren Buffet
“Let’s say that it was 24 hours before you were born, and a genie appeared and said, ‘What I’m going to do is let you set the rules of the society into which you will be born. You can set the economic rules and the social rules, and whatever rules you set will apply during your lifetime and your children’s lifetimes.’ And you’ll say, ‘Well, that’s nice, but what’s the catch?’ And the genie says, ‘Here’s the catch. You don’t know if you’re going to be born rich or poor, white or black, male or female, able-bodied or infirm, intelligent or retarded.’

=================================

The lesson to learn from this for all of those of axman’s persuasion …. beinghuman has nothing to do with socialism. Do not blame this on socialism. Blame it on yourself and change your ways since you are the hurdle we must overcome to solve the problem.

Forget about the higher ‘participation’ rate.
This is just another way of imposing an external control over individuals by other individuals who’ve taken it upon themselves to act in the name of ‘society’. Or, if you want to put it another way, have a “big brother knows best” attitude. The bottom line of that is still “…no one will be allowed to eat unless they’ve worked first”. And that whole conception is completely and utterly obsolete, since it defines ‘work’ as the price of something that can be included in costs and FULLY recovered in prices. And it CAN’T be.

axman: “Sure, there are people in dire straits through no fault of their own but there’s also a lot of people who could a lot better if they just started accepting responsibility for their own lives.”

Exactly!
Been there but I didn’t STAY there.
Furthermore, I have always believed in working before I eat. It has worked for me and many others too.
Its a good attitude to adopt.

“Forget about the higher ‘participation’ rate.”

My dear socredible ….. the challenge you have is that you filter every single word used by others through your eyes and associated grey matter which are both clouded by $$$$ signs. There are many meanings to words. Yours are only one of those and will be valid to you and some others, but by no means to everyone. A finite dollar value cannot be put on most things. I would never go on an ocean cruise, for instance. Thus, it has no value to me other than to pass on the ticket to someone else if I was given one. On the other hand I might pay a few hundred dollar of a good painting of the street where I was born and I recall from my youth. I doubt anyone else would pay anything for such an item.

The participation I had in my mind was the participation in society. That participation is both taking value and giving value. The taking and giving may or may not have $ attached to them. It has everything to do with value taken by and given to the individual, nuclear family, extended family, and community.

BTW, amazingly more simple societies were able to fgure that out and they managed to generate societies into the present age which may be starting to disintegrate because they have lost that ability.

Work ….. “Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.”

Your definition of work might be true from an economist’s point of view.

Can we keep those guys and gals as well as their associated bean counters out of it and let us count our own beans please.

Seems to me we are seeing a variation of this debate at Couuncil right now in addressing a dollar based KPMG evaluation since they have failed to provide a value based evaluation.

Council s struggling with that, having the same Councillor go this way one time and another way another time and one has to wonder what value system they are guided by. They really do not have a city based value system.

They are ill prepared for the task they have untertaken.

“The lesson to learn from this for all of those of axman’s persuasion …. beinghuman has nothing to do with socialism. Do not blame this on socialism. Blame it on yourself and change your ways since you are the hurdle we must overcome to solve the problem.”

You misunderstood me gus; I was merely stating that I’m not a good socialist since my first instinct is not to expect the rest of you to look after me. I don’t mind doing my share and a little bit of someone elses share when they (for good reason) can’t.

I’m proud to live in Canada; a place were we will look after one another when need be. I’m just sick and tired of the many numbers who abuse the system.

I wouldn’t disagree with your definition of ‘participation’ as given, gus. Or of ‘work’, in the non-financial sense.

axman:- “I’m sick and tired of the many numbers who abuse the system.”

============================================
The present ‘system’ will always be prone to abuse. Because it’s flawed and based on a financial fallacy. Namely that there is always enough money available in the hands of the public, as a whole, to fully purchase all the goods and services made by that public, as a whole, in any same given fiscal period. There ISN’T. Nor would there be if we were able to remove every ‘abuser’ from it.

As soon as the dippers get elected next spring I guess this will be the last “Chili Blanket Foofraw” here in Prince George. Methinks Ms. Mastrometeo will have to hitch her wagon to another cause to get cheap publicity again for her agenda next Xmas. I shall wait. When I first read her name a certain Seinfeld episode came to mind. Couldn’t help it.

Okay axman … explanation understood and accepted …. thanks for that

————————————-

on to the discussion of “abusers”, I take socredible’s position that there will always be abusers to mean that in any system which is based on multiple participants who live in a complex society, there will always be those who some will consider to be abusers or people who in some people’s mind do not pull their weight. What I would be after is that in an advanced and relatively well off society the minimum level not only of human survivability but also civilized livability is present for all.

dear Ms Mastrometeo – I commend anyone that helps those in need. Mysef and my family do it alot. If you want to run for office then do it. Please do not combine the two. We have a very VERY low unemployment rate so dont talk about job creation. Also most of the people that are in need of this help have no idea what Enbridge even is, or have been in need for longer than that name has even been on our radar. So please keep your political BS to yourself or get your name on a ballot. Thanks

Cristy Clark IMHO is the worst, most unqualified, unelected priemier ever in BC. She is surely an embarrasment to BC as she doesn’t back what BC has been saying that there shouldn’t be any pipeline cross BC for reasons already stated by BCers many times. Congratulations to Jan Mastrometeo in her efforts to make people aware of the need of the less fortunate.

Cristy Clark IMHO is the worst, most unqualified, unelected priemier ever in BC. She is surely an embarrasment to BC as she doesn’t back what BC has been saying that there shouldn’t be any pipeline cross BC for reasons already stated by BCers many times. Congratulations to Jan Mastrometeo in her efforts to make people aware of the need of the less fortunate.

So ms. Clark’s five (5) points that must be met before any pipeline approval is granted is her not listening?

I think that the whole area of assisting the needy needs to be looked into.

We know that St Vincents provides three meals a day seven days and week, and also provides free clothing every two weeks for those in need. People can pick up food at the Salvation Army on Ospika at least once a week, and Im sure there are other things provided.

Then the Government pays approx $500.00 per month for a single adult, and approx $1000.00 per month for a single mother with children. In addition we have the BC Family Bonus, which is paid by the Provincial Government every month which amounts to approx $100.00 per month per child, combined with the Federal Governments Canada Child Tax Benefit, plus the HST rebate quarterly which amounts to approx $265.00 (More or less)

I am shooting from the hip here, however there are a number of areas where help is provided, without going into what is supplied by other groups, churches, etc;

In fact I would venture to say that because of the various benefits, and other services provided in Prince George people actually move here to take advantage of them.

So we need to have all these groups, and the various Governments, and the City, and some representatives from those who recieve these benefits to come together to see if there is a better way to provide these services.

It is not really necessary to stand outside the court house, passing out blankets, and cooking hot dogs. Most of the people taking advantage of the food and blankets, already get some of the above mentioned benefits.

Oh for crying out loud people, the organizer admits the event is to bring real attention and focus to people living in poverty and our society’s very real responsibility to ensure that a minute portion of our taxes is funneled to support the social programs that Canadians hold dear and set us apart.

Would you prefer she spend billions of our tax dollars on advertisement and promotional tools, like Ms. Clark has been madly writing cheques for (more than double that of her predecessor Gordo, in her short time)?

I am sure the event is meant to call attention to the good works and need for the various social agencies we host in our city – and not to detract or replace them. Maybe a guy living on freaking FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS A MONTH got Two hot dogs that day.

I guarantee a kidney that this government spends more money on corporate welfare and hence loss revenue, pipe dream BS and patronage – than every man, woman and child on welfare in this province.

Thanks to folks like Ms Mastrometeo for stepping up. If you have any political aspirations in the future, well, we can just cross that bridge when and if we come to it. God forbid we we have a win-win here.

And btw, talk to organizers at our food banks and they will tell you that their numbers have increased HUGELY – do your research – and the greatest number are the new class of “working poor”…yeah, lots of jobs, how many are for minimum wage and/or no benefits, or worker protection above and beyond the gradual crumbling and claw back of the most legal basic worker’s rights.