Here is a thought, the highest tax’s in B.C. The crime capital of Canada. The most out of control council in Western Canada. A mayor that is more interested in vacations to China than what is happening here. I just can’t figure out why PG isn’t growing in leaps and bounds.

I know people (long time PG residents) that got jobs at the mines around PG but opted to move to the Okanagan and commute to work every two weeks. Simply better lifestyle down there, and higher quality rentals available. Any mine worker or construction worker looking at PG for a temporary home or a home in transition is faced with a rental market that is almost all 40-year old run down soviet style accommodation.

PG is viewed as a city run like a dry logging camp and not a livable city with a progressive sustainable future… its not viewed as worthy of any premium and even at a discount is a hard sell. The Okanagan has a different mindset and like minds tend to flock together.

Look at the new multi dwelling starts in PG over the last two decades and its almost none existent other than a few in the government subsidized housing. Look at almost any other city in the province and they are leaving PG behind when it comes to the new rental market. PG has no interest in the development of quality rental units and the condo market. In PG there is no single area that one could call a high end urban area… one could argue that Quesnel even does that better than PG.

I don’t know whether it could be done or not but do you think Harper is trying to starve us into agreeing with the pipeline? If he is that would sure be a non starter in my books.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that this is one ugly town. If I was in a camp working 30 and 10’s I sure as hell wouldn’t spend my 10 days off in this ugly little burg.

We moved away because we were sick of paying the high taxes. Prince George is one of the worst towns we have done business in, most specifically development services. W our house is worth 300,000 more in the okanagan and our tax bill is almost half of what we paid there. It is an insult to all people in pg to say that is because of snow removal. In my opinion it is because of the financial incompetence in city hall!

Lets not forget we lost alot of well paying jobs in the past 6 years, 400 from Plywood plant, 200 Clear Lake Mill, 220 from Rustads, 200 Winton Global,200 lakelands that 1220 jobs earning average $60,000 a year add in the logging companysand other support services and your over 2000 well paying jobs gone.Not easy to replace and these companys still keep their logging lience for these sites to sell and trade the timber and smile all the way to the bank all made possable with the changes to the Forest Act in 2001/2002 thanks Gordo

I sold my house in PG because the neighbors collected lots of junk and garbage. This made my neighborhood unpleasant.
I complained to Bylaw many times but nothing was done over the years.

So I decided to sell my house and not invest here again.

It’s the new portable work force mentality. Live at one place and work at another.

And I have to agree with obiwan on the tax issue. We looked at a house in West Kelowna with a pool and a view of the lake at a value almost twice what my house is worth here. And the taxes were 40% less for a house of almost double the value.

I am coaching my children to move to a better community. I don’t want them raising their family here. From high taxes to council running over us like a frieght train. I worked a long while to pay my morgage off just to have City in my pocket for more and got nothing. I have to watch council like a hawk because you never know witch neighbourhood thay will target next IE bottle depoit treatment centres. Not even a say what happens in my hood. Comminity spirit is in the tolit. Crime is through the roof. Why the heck would people want to live here?

Will all the new projects that are starting replace all the jobs that’ve been lost since the pulp mills were first constructed ?

Look at how many mills have closed in the interim.

Look at how many people it takes to get the tree to the mills compared to what it used to take.

And how much more ‘productivity’ in the mills that are left is there now than what there once was?

Does not ‘productivity’ imply more output of product with less input of labour?

How many of the industries that manufactured or sold equipment thirty or forty years ago are left, and still going strong?

Can every place have a vibrant economy that fuels additional growth from ‘service’ type employment, where we essentially only “take in each other’s laundry”? And nothing brings in any new ‘money’ to the overall community?

There isn’t even much scope for inflation in that kind of an economy, let alone the pseudo-prosperity that inflation supposed to be. You become a center for government offices. But that only lasts until the credit rating gets reduced, and the cutbacks have to be made to ‘balance the Budget.’

Time to stop hitching your wagons to the same old horse of ‘job creation’ that you’ve already flogged to death. Beating him some more isn’t going to put any new life in him.

PGguy or steph99, does Kelowna have that industrial fog that smells like sulfur that Prince George has? What are the winter’s like?

“And I have to agree with obiwan on the tax issue. We looked at a house in West Kelowna with a pool and a view of the lake at a value almost twice what my house is worth here. And the taxes were 40% less for a house of almost double the value. “

I’m not defending the City’s tax rate, but the common comparision people make between house value and tax rates is a red herring.

The municipality will extract what it needs from the population regardless of house value.

If house values happen to be high, the tax rate (percentage wise) will be lower than in a municipality where the house values were lower.

And as for why we’re not ‘shooting the lights out’ so to speak, one needs not to look further than the City’s well earned poor reputation on many fronts.

People want lower taxes but aren’t willing to give up services that these taxes pay for?

I agree that City Hall does a poor job of managing our money. There are lots of things that this City Council (and past) have failed on.

But I think one of the reasons why Prince George has a bad label/poor image is because some of the residents here do a great job of portraying that to the outside world.

Instead of bashing our city, why don’t people come up with ideas to improve it. What would make this city more attractive to outsiders and even our own residents?

There is potential in this city – it just needs someone to give it a kick in the a** and get things rolling.

We need more people living here to help lower the taxes.

Thank you Rounder… Prince George will always be a trashy, crime ridden, logging town full of undesirable people if people like some posting above keep telling everyone that. We need a new mayor and council but it’s sad you have so little pride.

No fog or smell on Kelowna but can you afford to live there?? in PG area over 2000 jobs in forestry lost thats big part of the problem not the smell or fog

The town was booming between about 1965 and 1975. When one looks at the “skyline” in the downtown as well as the residential areas we see several buildings higher than two or three stories

– RBC, Telus, Oxford, Scotia Bank, HSBC, Coast, City Hall were all built during that period with Plaza 400, RAMADA (Holiday Inn) and BDC coming later

– high rise apartments on 5th, 15th, 20th as well as Queensway were also all built during that era.

With respect to shopping, Spruceland and the Pine Centre came from that era.

The majority of residential subdivisions west of Central were built during that area as well as the upper and lower college heights area and the Highland area of the Hart and much of the expansion along the North Nechako.

The advent of box stores was driven by an expectation of consumers to have that type of shopping available. In addition, based on shopping square footage inventory in PG compared to comparable cities in BC at the time, PG was underserviced big time. As a result, some of the stores in the Pine Centre had the highest per square foot sales in Canada right into the eighties and part of the nineties.

There was also some catch up in services such as the creation of CNC, which was really part of a provincial move with the expansion of vocational schools to 2 year diploma granting colleges. Unlike Ontario during those days, BC did not expand its Universities into the hinterlands at that time. That took another 20 years.

All that original boom was based on the building of 3 pulp mills, the sawmills on River road, the BCR and Willowcale, as well as the plywood plant.

In addition we had the regional expansion with the construction of the W.A.C. Bennett Dam, the establishing of Mackenzie incorporated in 1966 as a result of mills there. Mills in Bear Lake, Vanderhoof, Burns Lake came from that era as well.

THAT was the boom with the annual building of over 1,000+ houses plus several apartment buildings for a good 10 years.

Since then we have had a catch up period of services which has offset the slow attrition of mill jobs due to ongoing improved mill automation which is very significant when seen from 1960’s to 40 to 50 years later.

The boom went bust in 1981 and never really came back. And then came 2007/8. And we are entering into the predicted shortage of wood inventory due to the MPB.

There is no boom that I can see.

BTW, have a look at the City web page at http://princegeorge.ca/CITYHALL/ABOUTOURCITY/Pages/Default.aspx

While there is misinformation on much of that page, the information at the bottom under “Today’s Prince George” is really an affront to the citizens of this community.

This is the work of our Council and administrative staff, folks!!!

“Wood drives the local economy, with forestry, PLYWOOD manufacture, 12 SAWMILLS and three pulp mills as major employers and customers”

I do not think we have a dairy any longer. Neither does BC Rail operate any longer

“Prince George’s education system encompasses 37 elementary, 8 secondary, 2 junior secondary, 1 middle school and 8 private schools” That was not PG, that was the RDFFG. I say “was” since there are now only 31 elementary schools in SD57.

Things change …. and we are not changing with it and we have a City Hall which obviously continues to live in the past.

So what can we do about it because those people we thought we were paying to do something about it aren’t. It is showing more and more each day.

As Rounder say’s if your not part of the solution you are part of the prblem. Now who ever puts a stop to this constant snowing gets my VOTE.

… LEADERSHIP …

v.

I don’t think it’s ‘bashing’ to admit and acknowledge that we have a lot of problems and a poor reputation to deal with.

If you want to live in a state of denial and pretend these problems don’t exist, we can’t move forward.

JohnnyBelt and Gus, and some others here have it right.

When you look at the big picture as to what has taken place since the 1960’s not only in Prince George but the surrounding areas, you can see the boom and the bust.

We have lost so much industry between Prince Rupert and MacKenzie, Prince George, that it is mind boggling. Some that are gone,

1 Skeena Pulp Mill Pr Rupert
2.Eurocan Pulp and Paper Kitimat
3.Abitibe Paper MacKenzie

Plus many many more. Huge reductions in jobs by CN Rail, and then further reductions with the sale of BC Rail. The new coal mines in Tumber ridge will not even replace the amount of coal or jobs that was there a few years ago when Quintette, and Bullmoose was in operation.

The mines North on Highway 37 will at best produce the same number jobs we had when Noranda Mines and Granisle Copper were in production at Granisle BC.

The building of a new ingot plant at Kitimat when finished will result in the loss of 400 permanent jobs.

The upgrade to the Endako mine when finished resulted in the loss of some permanent jobs.

The Mount Milligan mine in the MacKenzie area, will at best replace the jobs lost when the Kemess North mine shut down.

It goes on and on, however the end result is that even with all the new industry taking place in North Central BC it is not enough to replace all the downsizing that has take place in the last 15 years.

So we have a serious problem, but so far I have not heard any solutions. The reason we have no growth, is because we do NOT have any industry to promote growth. At best we can maintain the status quo.

Ok bashing was a bad choice of words – but peopl are quick to point out the negatives before the positives.

I do agree that we have problems in this city, but so do a lot of cities.

These problems aren’t going to disappear on their own, but we can’t keep living in the past either.

@ steph99, That almost mirrors what happened on the west coast with fisheries being run from Ottawa. Back in the 17`s they printed fishing licenses on toilet paper and you didn`t even have to know how to run a boat let alone swim to get one.

The population in Prince Rupert was 20.000 year round,22+ fish processing plants at least 5 of them running year round,there were no big box stores and I don`t think most of the local merchants knew how to spell going out of business or bankrupt.
Now the population in Rupert stands at 9.000ish,the Foreign fish companies just tow in a freezer barge now so they can make their own ice to ship all the salmon south of the boarder.

Grapes of wrate

It also didn’t help having the highest gas price’s in the province for the last 10 months.

oops that was suppose to read 70`s

I also think when you hear the politicians speak about this mine opening up, that project going ahead, etc and tell everyone it is going to mean a big deal to prince george as a hub for services and supply, I think that is being waaaayy oversold. I think most companies get thier supplies out of edmonton or vancouver or south of the borders. Just about every part I try to buy when working on projects in this town has to be sent for to either edmonton or vancouver through a middle man (the rep in prince george). Most suppliers here are simply regional representatives and not actually storehouses of goods.

“Now the population in Rupert stands at 9.000ish,the Foreign fish companies just tow in a freezer barge now so they can make their own ice to ship all the salmon south of the boarder.”

Ask Jimmy Pattison and BC Packers what role they play in our BC fisheries.

@DG,don`t want to piss off JP he might get mad and only send us half a semi of food for the food bank,and I don`t want to hurt those folks that need it now because of NAFTA…

Kelowna yep a great place to live, it is also the snow capital of Canada. Think on that one.

“An 18-year-old man is recovering from second- and third-degree burns on his back after he was set on fire after passing out at a house party in Kelowna, B.C., Friday night.

The man was lying on the kitchen floor when a liquid accelerant was poured on him and then lit on fire, police said. The incident was filmed.”

We need to start making P.G. more inviting and welcome large business developers – which most of the bloggers on this site think are the enemy and would prefer to fight.

Down town core needs to be upgraded and developed…no point in finger pointing, however, it needs to be fixed that will require money from investors – this is no easy task at this time and certainly will not happen overnight.

P.G. is known to be a big union town that that tends to be too militant and demanding which certainly has an effect on bringing in new large entrepreneurs and has driven several away.

The huge NDP following always has negative effects on development and investors – this goes hand in hand with large union town philosophy.

Ironically at the end of the day we are and have been a resource exploiting town…that throws rocks at the likes of Enbridge.

Maybe global warming will change our weather from 4 months of summer to 6 and the area climate will then attract more people to retire here.

Note.. I believe in the union movement it is necessary, however, we have seen many unions abuse their power in P.G.

And that just my opinion.

We cant get large business developers to come to Prince George. Why?? What would they develop??

Unless you have an idea that would create employment, lots of jobs, and make a profit for developers your done.

Eveyone for years have talked about enticing business to come to Prince George, but they have never come up with a realistic idea. What major business would come to Prince George and what would they produce????

We cannot compete on the world stage because of our location, high cost of labour, and transportation. We are hundreds and thousands of miles from the major population areas, like Vanocouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, Eastern US, Southern US.

All business wants from us is our natural resources.

The only growth industry in Prince George, is Government funded projects, and Government itself, and Government entities.
Lots of low income jobs, people on assistance, people working reduced hours, and some good jobs. Not exactly a recipe for expansion.

Thje City of PG is till living in the 60’s and 70’s They built a ploics station that cost 42 million when it should of been a shoe box. The planning is in the dumper. They have to be taken to court to keep the planning on course.

The lkst is endless of the stupidity of management. So we will just remain a frontier village that will continue to decline.
Cheers

Why does PG have to grow and develope? Stop spending as if we are growing.

As somebody who moved away to the lower mainland a little over a year ago (after being a PG resident for 37 of my 46 years,) I thought I’d put my two-cents into this conversation.

When I tell people where I’m from (and proudly I might add), I sometimes get the usual response of ewww or “isn’t it really dangerous up there?”. Which I then go through the list of things that are positive about living in PG. For instance:

Short commuting: Commuting down here sucks if you have no access to public transit. I drive from Port Moody to Abbotsford daily (PG to Hixon is similar) with a bunch of yahoos in their BMWs who think they are the second coming of Senna. I miss the 15 minute drive to work.

Outside activities: I can’t think of a better place to live than PG if you are into the outdoors. Such easy access in every direction. Sadly I’m not that into camping, skiing, snowmobiling etc. So this held little benefit to me. For those that are into it… you’ve got it all!!

The people: I miss the people of PG. Truly, most are the friendliest bunch. People down here are ice cold for the most part. Very difficult to make a friends. I also miss my family a great deal.

So why did I move? A few reasons…

Professional: As I work a white collar profession, there was no place for advancement for me. All the companies I worked at, I basically hit the ceiling right as soon as I was hired. I could have started my own business but I don’t really have that entrepreneurial DNA in me. I work hard but you either have that spirit or you don’t.

Air-Quality: And no, not the smell. Believe me, Chilliwack is way more pungent. It’s the fine particulate in the air. That is really nasty stuff, and the City of PG just seems to shrug their shoulders.

Snow: Quite frankly after 37 years I was sick of dealing with it. If I don’t get any winter sports joy from it, all it becomes is work.

Real Estate: This was one of the big reasons I moved. No condo developments in PG. I don’t want to own an entire house. I don’t need anything that big. Thousands of condos being built down here. Are they overpriced… you bet. But with my girlfriend and I sharing the financial load, and a higher earning job, I’m paying about the same percentage of my income, that I did for rent in a basement suite in PG.

Performing Arts: This is something that I am passionate about. I love the performing arts of all kinds and I have so much more access down here. Perhaps PG would get more of this with a PAC, but the general consensus of residents is that it’s not needed, or not the right time. I’ve been hearing that excuse for over 20 years. I got sick of waiting and moved to where I could enjoy it.

Vibrant downtown: Doesn’t exist in PG and I kept seeing it get worse.

Lastly, there’s a cocky comment I would read on this forum from time to time…. “if you don’t like it here, move”.

I did, but who cares right?

Simple , we cannot seem to find a viable city council who has the city’s best interests in mind . Rather we have a city council who looks at their jobs as an oppourtunity to travel the globe on pointless trips, spend money hand over fist on huge prestige boosting buildings and wasting money on stuff like the winter games , which will only bring people in to see the true state of our city with deteriorating infrastructure , drugs and crime running rampant and homeless people in need of help. But that is ok , cause we have the fanciest RCMP building in the country . This money should have been put into the city fixing some of these problems and bringing our city into the new millenium to be able to draw more permanent residents to Prince George .

This Blog list PG short commings:
High Taxes
Smell
Bad Roads
Highest Gas Costs
Snow
Jobs
The Future for the City will be a slow decline and what is the top aganda for the City , Pay Parking !

“cause we have the fanciest RCMP building in the country”

Boy, isn’t that the understatement of the decade …. was looking at it the other day and a woman walked by and said something like “some fancy cop shop, isn’t it” … I told her it was actually the Performing Arts Centre. City Council is trying to sneak it in under pretense of a cop shop…

Strange that no one has caught on yet, eh? :-)

To point out the negatives about PG is a reality, every city has issues. Some of the posters here tend to dwell on the bad & not see the good. What does PG have that is good? Affordable housing, friendly people (try nodding hello or smile at someone in the lower mainland & see what reaction you get), we have access to the outdoors that is incredible, Europeans are in continual amazement when they see what we have. If you’re a winter person the possibilities are endless, from sledding in the best kept secret in BC to unmatched powder skiing in not one but 3 different & distinct areas all within a short drive. People from all over the world spend 10s of thousands of dollars to come & play in our back yard. Hunting & fishing…
Sure we have some bad things that happen,so do alot of places. We also have alot going for us. Life is what you make it, as is the place you live.

The huge NDP following always has negative effects on development and investors – this goes hand in hand with large union town philosophy.

——————————————-How does this fit. We have two PC members of parliament and two more MLA’s. The large unions are in industry. All the retailers and service industry in our city is none union. Mayb if they were more of the money would be spent in our community.
Cheers

Wow, Pylot …. I think you hit the nail on the head with every single comment!!!

Thanks for that.

Working in Abbotsford? Why not consider moving to Lynden. With a Nexus card your commute time would be shortened considerably. You can buy your gasoline in the USA.

Real estate prices are half to 1/3 the price of the Canadian side. Groceries tend to be less. The only expense you will have is you will need a private medical insurance, but at your age that is still doable.

Want to buy a new car? Probably save 20% on Canadian price. And ….. the people actually have a say in local government to a level unheard of on this side of the border.

Sample condos in Lynden (there are a lot of gated communities in that area)
http://www.bellinghamhomes.com/index.cfm/page/50546/parent/48463/Lynden_Condos.html

Rounder wrote: “I do agree that we have problems in this city, but so do a lot of cities.”

The last part is not true when one considers regional service centres such as Prince George and problems associated with what Councillor Wilbur likes to call “growing the tax base”.

Sure, all communities have some sort of problems. Certainly those communities which are growing fast have problems associated with rapid growth and those which are growing at an average rate have problems with the next incremental changes in new services required and most certainly we all share the problem of infrastructure maintenance and renewal because very few have put money aside for that and all have rising costs due to last decades faster increase in government salaries and benefits than that of the general population. Finally, they all have problems of senior governments reducing taxes, getting less income from the traditional resource and manufacturing base and the resulting downloading of new responsibilities to municipalities which have no additional revenue tools other than property taxes and user fees.

Right across the country, the communities which have not grown or actually shrunk tend to be those which are even smaller than PG and are resource communities which are not oil/gas/potash based. Due to the nature of the industries, they tend to be located relatively remote from the manufacturing and service industry communities. It is those later communities, especially those which have reached a self sustaining size of say half a million population which have been growing steadily. Again, because of the shift from forestry and mining resources being the larger resource bases to the oil and gas taking over that role, the communities which have grown quickest tend to be those associated directly with the oil and gas industry, initially in the West, and now also in Newfoundland.

Cities in the size range of PG which have not been doing well over the last 10 years at least include Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, Sudbury, Windsor, Shawinigan, Bathurst.

Here are the census figures for communities which have populations of over 10,000 within their Census Agglomeration region (the immediate area surrounding the city limits). The numbers represent the following from left to right after the community name – 2011 census population, 2006, change in % over previous census, 2001 pop, change in % over previous census. There are some figures which are not calculated due to Kitimat dropping out of the 10,000 threshold population in 2006, and the CA boundaries for Quesnel changing after 2006.

Kitimatno data8,987n.a.10,285-12.6

Prince Rupert13,05213,392-2.515,302-12.5

Quesnel2209622,449n.a.24,426-8.1

Terrace1556918,581119,980-7.0

Williams Lake1849018,760-1.419,768-5.1

Prince George8423283,2251.285,035-2.1

You can view the stats here for 2011/2006. The data can be sorted by clicking at the top of the columns.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/hlt-fst/pd-pl/Table-Tableau.cfm?LANG=Eng&T=201&SR=1&RPP=150&S=5&O=D

You can see that the high attrition was between the 2001 and 2006 census and certainly also before that, not the most recent one. That was the time when forestry was still going full tilt trying to get the dead pine to market and the USA not yet reducing its housing construction.

When I look at the data I come up with the following hypothesis

1.Resource towns were overbuilt for sustaining a resource base which was producing more product with fewer employees as time passed. We saw this type of efficiency increase in agriculture in the first half of the 1900s as well as in the manufacturing industry.

2.Resource towns were poorly located to become desirable communities for other businesses.

3.Attractive opportunities became available in the oil/gas/potash patches of Alberta, Northern BC, Saskatchewan and now Newfoundland.

4.Those who were used to higher wages and working hours in the boom times started moving when opportunities for growing personal assets appeared elsewhere.

If no one has explored that and similar hypotheses, I think it is time it is done in order to either accept it or try to change it with a full knowledge base of the cause and effect relationship of community viability/sustainability in this part of the world.

Where are the UNBC, IPG, NDIT, the minister responsible for economic development in the Province in exploring this question so that people responsible for maintaining and improving the communities we live in are not going around in circles and getting nowhere because they simply are not anywhere near being experts in such matters.

I’ll throw in my two cents as well. I was born and raised in PG, lived there for over 30 years and moved to Ottawa about a year and a half ago.

There were many reasons why I moved, but I’ll start with what I see as the positives for PG:

1) Small town feel. I always referred to PG as a big small town. It’s friendly, it’s easy to get around, it’s simple and it’s pretty relaxed.

2) Affordable housing. Homes are cheap compared to other places and the cost of living is also low. Property taxes may be higher, but who cares when your mortgage is half of what it would be in some other cities for a similar property.

3) Facilities: For a town of PG’s size, it does have a pretty outstanding list of facilities and venues. There are many cities even larger than PG that don’t have facilities on par with what PG has.

Now PG’s downsides for me:

1) Air quality: No doubt about it, it can be TERRIBLE. When people visit and say they have a “PG cold” they are referring to the AQ. I visited for a week recently and could tell after one night of being home that had left Ottawa. You couldn’t pay me enough to subject myself to that type of fine particulate again, knowing what it’s now like to live somewhere where it isn’t an issue.

2) Remoteness: Despite the much improved air service, you are still a long ways from other populated centres and regions. Vancouver is within easy reach, but that’s only one destination. It takes a fair bit of effort to venture out and explore.

3) Lack of culture and diversity: For the most part, PG is a homogenous city. You don’t get the same level of diversity as you do in larger centres and it can get boring and stagnant. I didn’t find that I was developing as a person, mainly because after 30+ years of living there, there was nothing new to experience.

4) Future growth: I have a very young son and I wanted t raise him in a city that I thought had high growth potential. I don’t see that being PG over the next 5-15 years and in fact I think there is a serious risk that the population will decline in a fairly substantial way as a result of the MPB impacts. I didn’t think that was the optimal environment for how I wanted to raise my son.

5) Career opportunities: Ditto to what Pylot said. For white collar workers, PG has very little to offer once you get to a certain point in your career.

My wife and I are fortunate in that we both have careers that are fairly mobile. We were were looking to move, we considered most of the major urban centres in Canada before deciding on Ottawa. There were a number of factors:

1) Affordability: Housing is roughly on par with PG. New homes might be 10-15% higher, but if you can afford a new home in PG you can afford one here. Some of the outlying communities (roughly the distance as say Beaverly into PG) are quite a bit cheaper than PG . . .

2) Location: Driving from PG to Vancouver is 7-8 hours. That same drive from Ottawa will put you into a number of very major urban centres in Canada and the Northeast US. Montreal is a 2 hour drive from my door, Toronto is 4 and Quebec City is about 5. New York City, Boston, Buffalo, Detroit and others are all within reach. If you want to fly, you can get cheap airfares to US destinations and the entire eastern seaboard opens up. Access to major cities is top notch.

3) Outdoors activities: People don’t think of Ottawa as an outdoors lovers area, but it really is. The fishing in the immediate area is very good, the hiking is great, you can head to upstate New York, Vermont or New Hampshire to find the mountains, you can pop over to the Great Lakes for boating, the St. Lawrence River is an hour away, etc. I thought I would miss the outdoors but in many ways it’s actually more accessible here.

4) Lifestyle: I love being able to run along the Rideau Canal, head to the Biward Market for dinner, explore the history of the area, etc. This isn’t just an Ottawa thing. I think every city I’ve been to around here has that “charm” that you just don’t find in Western Canada. I think it’s the history, the old brick buildings and the fact that everything seems so established. You really can feel it.

5) Diversity: I like the fact that people here don’t all look the same, dress the same, drive the same vehicles, eat the same foods, speak the same languages or act the same. This is a big city thing and I just think it makes life so much more exciting to always be discovering new things, seeing different perspectives on issues. I think this allows you to grow as a person.

6) Climate: What can I say. I had a hard time adjusting to the summers when I first moved here, but now I LOVE them. It’s hot and humid here in the summer (most days are well over 30 and some days with humidex you are high 40’s) and while the winters can be bitter cold, they aren’t as long as PG. Fall is simply spectacular.

7) Child friendly: There is probably a festival of some sorts every weekend in the summer here. There are parks in every subdivision. Finding daycare is a non-issue. Sports and recreation programs are everywhere. Oh and what’s more cool than being able to drive up to Quebec City and SHOW HIM the Plains of Abraham when he’s learning about them in school?

So for me, it mainly comes down to lifestyle and wanting to take advantage of what a larger urban centre can offer.

detoe43 wrote: “Some of the posters here tend to dwell on the bad & not see the good”

Yes, some do. Others dwell on the good and do not see the bad. Then there are those who see both.

Finally, there are actually people who figure out what to me is the obvious – if the good outweighed the bad, people would not be leaving, and new people would gladly come here. And there are new people who do. But the net effect has been for people to leave over the last 15 to 20 years. There may be a rebound, but one census period is not enough of an indicator.

So, just like a balance sheet, we can increase the good and reduce the bad.

In order to do that we have to find out which good and which bad we have, and nt shut our eyes to either, then figure out who can make change, get those organizations together, and, as a community demand that change has to be made.

FIrst we deal with those which do not need more money but simply a change in a mindset, which sometime requires saying goodby to those who do not have the capacity to make change since they have actually been part of the problem.

KPMG was not asked to look into that, were they? So we now have the same mindset following KPMG’s suggestions.

The tools to change the mindset are not in the Core Review.

The tools should be such organizations as the Fraser Basin Council, the Beetle Action Coalitions, NDIT, UNBC and IPG as well as those who are supposedly looking after the economic regions of this province from Victoria. We really do not hear much of economic regions, do we?

We have to stop kidding ourselves.,

Entities like NDIT, UNBC, IPG, etc; are part of the problem. So are the City Managers, Councillors, MLA’s, and MP’s.

These people are for all intents and purposes sitting in the **cat bird seat** and are not bothered by any extent, no matter which way the economy goes.

We have to quit pretending that we have the best people possible in all these positions to look after the interests of the City. The fact of the matter is, most of these people dont even understand the nature of the problem, let alone the solutions. Thats why they doddle along day in and day out, without any sense of emergency. Thier pay cheques keep coming no matter what they do.

There is no responsibility for getting the job done or getting it done right. We the citizens sit on our collective ass’es and wax philosphically about the state of the nation, but do nothing.

Our heads are so far into the sand all you can see is our feet. We refuse to call out these politicians, and others on the taxpayers dole, and demand accountability for money spent.

Our Mayor and Council going to China is an insult to citizens.

We have given the Airport Authority 5 years to show some value for dollars spent, and have got nothing. So, lets ask the question. Are we going to get any business at this Airport, and if so when.??

What is the state of the Community Energy System. Because of the fire at Lakeland Mills is this project a failure. If so what is being done to fix the problem. Are we going to supply all these buildings with heat from natural gas, if so, at what cost, and what is the effect on greenhouse gas emissions compared to the old system.

The list goes on.

We need a gathering of concerned citizens to sit down with these (high paid) Government, and Government entity representatives, and come up with some concrete solutions to problems.

They all hide behind each other and point fingers, and we the citizens of Prince George pay the price.

I was talking to a colleague today and we were talking about how his wife was from Trois-Rivieres (city of around 125,000 between Montreal and Quebec City) and he said it was experiencing some of the same challenges we are talking about here.

Based on what he said, there used to be paper mills and a smelter there that have now shut down and the city has been somewhat stagnant for a while. He said the population is aging, it is having a hard time attracting new residents and many of the younger generation that grew up there have left for larger cities (Quebec City and Montreal in many cases) because of the things they can offer that Trois-Rivieres cannot.

It sounded eerily similar to PG in many ways. When I look at the people I graduated with, only a handful are left in PG and most are now living in much larger cities.

I think the other factor that needs to be mentioned is the generational differences between the people who came to PG during the boom years and the people who are now in a position where they can contribute to the growth of a city.

In many cases, the job is now secondary and the lifestyle is the number one priority even if it means making less money or living in a way that some can’t fathom (i.e. renting a small apartment in Victoria as opposed to having a 3,000 sq. ft home in PG). People may assume that PG should grow because there are good jobs in the area, but if it doesn’t afford the lifestyle people want, it won’t matter. There are loads of people who are perfectly happy to find a job which can support the lifestyle they want as opposed to looking for the best paying job first and foremost. Attitudes and perspectives change over the years.

IMHO, it won’t matter how many jobs are in PG if people do not feel connected to the city. In this day and age and for the younger generations especially, I don’t think the job is enough. People want to work so that they can live, they don’t want to live to work.

“Entities like NDIT, UNBC, IPG, etc; are part of the problem”

I do not agree. Other than the University, and the provincial government (I do not meant the party, I mean the bureaucrats: which obviously stay, but with a bit of a cshalkeup every now and then, we can get rid of the other orginzation, but some type of organization wll need to replace it since the intended fucntion is still required unless we take a libertarian approach which will get rid of all the hinterland communities fastr than anyting else.

We need to get rid of the people who are on the boards and staff who head up the operations. In a community of this size it is totally incestuous with the result of the inbreeding being rather obvious.

Again, there are ways to do that, but people are too disinterested. They get what they want out of the community and when they have gotten that (which could include helping community organizations during their stay) they leave either mentally or physically as well and move on in their interests in which PG has not paticipation.

Then again, Canadians are a nomadic lot anyway.

I can’t help but think about the core review and much of the subsequent discussion around what the city “needs” to do at this point in time.

Are people rallying the city to undertake things that will build a community or are they advocating that the city should do things that will make the place more sterile?

When people proudly say things like “let the downtown die”, do they really understand what they are saying? When they laugh about the notion of infill developments or downtown condos, do they realize that they are turning off a segment of the population that may have moved to PG had those options been around? When Rogers proposed to expand the trail network in the city years ago and it was described as a waste of money, what does that say about the collective will of the people to improve the city?

“Our housing is less than half price of our Alberta cousins and one quarter of that in the Okanagan or the lower mainland”

I actually disagree with that one Ben. To be honest, I think that the “affordability” argument for PG housing isn’t quite what it used to be.

As best as I can tell from looking at MLS, you can’t touch a a newer home in a newer residential subdivision in PG for under $450,000 and many are well over $500,000. There are LOADS of places across the country on par with that or even far cheaper. Those prices won’t get you a penthouse condo near English Bay, but you can sure as heck live out in the valley for that . . .

I think people remember what they paid for their house 20-30 years ago, not thinking about what someone moving to town would have to pay to acquire a property now. It isn’t THAT cheap anymore.

Prince George is out of control when it comes to costs.

Higher gas prices
Higher prices for vehicles.
High prices for houses. When you start charging $100,000.00 to $150,000.00 for a lot in the middle of nowhere you know you have a problem. In addition you then pay $250,000.00 for a house that costs approx $150 to $175,000.00. Most of these costs approx $75 to 100,000.00 are pure profit.

Then you have the City dinging you for a road tax, garbage tax, snow tax, and some other single line item tax yet to come, plus your regular house taxes. Throw in the Airport Improvement Tax everytime you fly to Vancouver, and if you come in from out of town they will nail you with the hotel tax, which they give to the tourist bureau to piss against the wall. In addition we have the Winter Games tax for five years, to cover the costs of that bloody boondoggle.

Now they want to sell off, or lease to a third party some of thier assets. ie; Civic Centre, Colisium, Swimming Pool, Pine Valley Golf Course. While at the same time they will continue to fund

a. Theatre Northwest for $115,000.00

b. PG Golf and Curling Club, $800,000.00 renovation, plus annual tax exemption of $143,000.00

c. Cougar Franchise to the tune of $60,000,00 per year (more or less) which doesnt take into account the amount of money lost by not being able to book other venues, because the Cougars have the space tied up.

d. $300,000.00 per annum for the Northern Sports Centre

e. $1,000,000.00 per annum for IPG, so that we can say on our website that we have a development group, (What do they develop?)

Peter McKay hit the **reset** button on the F 35 fighter airplanes. Maybe its time that the City hit the reset button on taxes, and City expenses.

e. $1,000,000.00 per annum for IPG, so that we can say on our website that we have a development group, (What do they develop?)

Peter McKay hit the **reset** button on the F 35 fighter airplanes. Maybe its time that the City hit the reset button on taxes, and City expenses.

Are you kidding me.. Mayor Shari Green would need to Resign. She might have to come clean soon.

“In addition you then pay $250,000.00 for a house that costs approx $150 to $175,000.00. Most of these costs approx $75 to 100,000.00 are pure profit.”
Youre right Palupo – those darn contractors. They should build your house for cost just to see you smile and maybe get a warm bowl of soup when its done I guess.

Palopu, if you think you can build the houses which they are putting up today for considerably less you really owe it to yourself to get into the business.

As far as $100,000+ for a lot in the middle of nowhere, you realize, of course, that the $1million house in a city such as Vancouver is primarily the cost of the developed land.

When I bought the land our house sits on, it cost $10,000. That land has now increased 10+ fold. I wish the house I built on it would have increased at that rate as well. It increased at 3 to 4 times the original construction cost.

If my house burned down, the rebuilding of that would cost at least twice the assessed value.

Yeah, I have to agree with the commentary on house prices here in PG. It may have been the case 15-20 years ago when house prices were affordable, but that ship sailed some time ago.

It’s not the City’s fault. Low interest rates and long term mortgages pushed prices up tremendously, and brought a flood of first time home buyers into the picture that wouldn’t have been there previously. House prices have basically doubled in the past 10 years for no good reason.

“House prices have basically doubled in the past 10 years for no good reason”

I would agree with that JohnnyBelt. The other major problem that PG has is that there is nothing new on the market other than large single family dwellings. Want a condo? Tough luck. A row house? Nope. A nice apartment? Fat chance. A two bedroom rancher? Dream on.

Unless you are in a position to spend half a million dollars, you are completely shut out of the new house market in PG. A person graduating University making $40K-50K per year doesn’t have any options for new housing in PG. In most larger urban centres they could get into a condo, row home or something like that.

So think about it from their point of view. They just graduated, they are starting their career, they have job options in 6 or 7 cities in Western Canada and they need to choose one. Are they going to pack and go to the city where they can actually buy a new home or are they going to find a 30-40 year old property that needs some upgrades in PG? It’s a TOUGH sell. For the most part, the builders in PG have not kept up with the trends you see in residential development in other mid to large cities n Canada and I think that hurts the city when it comes to attracting people.

Yup, it’s time to put the affordable housing myth to bed. Unless “affordable” means “old, major fixer-upper”.

If I went to a home builder, and told him I want a 1200 sq. ft home, I would probably be looked at like I was from outer space.

I agree with NMG. Very well put.

I don’t think the bad outweighs the good in PG. If there is one thing PG suffers from, is that we have horrible PR & image. Over the years I have noted that PG has little or no advertising when publications in other parts of BC & elsewhere put out BC tourist info. Virtually every other area is promoted & advertised but not PG. Gus you hit the nail when you wrote of these entities that are suppose to be promoting the benefits of life in this area.

JohnnyBelt:-” Low interest rates and long term mortgages pushed prices up tremendously, and brought a flood of first time home buyers into the picture that wouldn’t have been there previously. House prices have basically doubled in the past 10 years for no good reason.”

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Part of the reason is because the BC government in that 10 year period has consistently moved to induce ‘inflation’ and peddle it to us as ‘prosperity’. The policy would have been much the same if the other Party had been in office, only the methods may have been different, and probably less effective.

There’s no indication this policy will change in the future, or there’s any understanding of the negative implications it holds.

One of those implications will be the accelerated disappearance of residential real estate as private property.

This is quite in line with the core philosophy of that ‘other Party’, whether its supporters understand or agree with that still or not.

As for the government we’ve had, and still have, and those who think they are in some ways following a different objective, think again. Whether you realise it or not, your Party is taking you where I seriously doubt most of you, and the rest of us, would ever willingly go.