Not to worry we will import the skilled people we need. Companies would rather hire a skilled person than to train their own. Why invest in someone who could leave for greener pastures once they have there ticket?

So President George Iwama has gotten on the band wagon to fill his university.
There are probablym to many university graduates with out jobs already.

what is needed is to build a fire under employers to invest in aprenticeship training and training for those to work in the current natural resourse industries like in the coal mining operations. Instead they are bringing in people from off shore to work on their operations. which will increase profit and to hell with training.
Cheers

“There are probably too many university graduates without jobs already”

Only if their studies related to subjects that were not relevant for the job market. Besides, what is the purpose of a university? Is it to prepare someone for the job market or is it to educate people? I’d suggest it’s the latter and that a by-product of that process is that some people will be well suited to undertake certain types of jobs once they graduate.

Honestly, I don’t know why this subject is all that surprising. People who act as though the baby boom time bomb will only hit the trades aren’t grasping the magnitude of the situation. There are loads of baby boomers who are doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, economists, nurses, teachers, etc. It’s the entire job market that is going to get hit (perhaps with the exception of IT workers) and that’s why it’s not really a bad time to be an employee. I actually think that employees will have incredible leverage in the next decade . . .

Oh and who knows, employers may even have to start hiring people with English degrees to manage their operations, LOL ;)

“Government of BC data indicate that 8,400 of these jobs will require a university degree, 8,100 a college credential, and 2,300 trades training.”

So, first let us put all those people with a university degree who are unemployed and underemployed to work on something they can finally sink their teeth into.

Second, put them to work before the job becomes available so that they can become useful to the industry – even skilled applied degrees such as medicine and engineering do not provide that – by the third year of employment. Essentially that will be their practicum. Remember, the people that will be lost are the people with the most experience. A knowledge, skills, attitude transfer in a job setting has to occur.

Third … I do not believe in government projections of any sort any more. They are like meteorologists, they get it worn half the time or right half the time, whichever way you want to look at it. The further north one lives, the worse it gets.

Then we have such statements as “…… two of the three regions in BC with the fastest RATE of employment growth are in Northern BC”. And this from a University president.

When one has a population base of 250,000 or so and then makes a comparison to the lower mainland with a population 10 times that, then a couple of percentage points here or there in the rate is not going to make much difference. The fact remains that the lower mainland will require at the most 10 times as many actual people to fill the gaps created than the north …. So if the rate in the north is higher … it might then only be 9 time or 8 times as many.

In my mind, total misuse of statistics.

Besides, the government prediction show that the GVRD and Peace are will lead the increase and the Cariboo, which PG is part of, will be the ones bringing up the tail end. We forgot about that, didn’t we? I posted those links on here before.

Here is the link again.
http://www.workbc.ca/Statistics/Labour-Market/Pages/Labour-Market.aspx

click on the regions at the bottom right ….

This goes directly to the Cariboo region.http://www.workbc.ca/Statistics/Labour-Market/Documents/Cariboo_Final.pdf

This one for the northeast
http://www.workbc.ca/Statistics/Labour-Market/Documents/Northeast_Final.pdf

When one looks at that government page closely and the info from the University Presidents, I am wondering whether we have two sets of data.

BC Labour market outlook 2010 to 2020
http://www.workbc.ca/Documents/Docs/BCLMOutlook.pdf

Open it up and look at the top left corner of sheet 6.

Northeast leads the pack with a demand growth of 1.75%/year

Lower mainland = 1.65%

North coast/Nechako = 1.25%

Thompson Okanagan = 1.1%

Kootenay = 1.1%

Vancouver Island / coast = 0.8%

Cariboo = 0.5% … that includes PG,
Quesnel, Williams Lake

So we are in the lowest demand region and we are a small total population region …..

I see the alarm for us being the sucking of people from this region to regions closer to the lower mainland where the high demand is.

So we will have to deal with retention and making this a part of the country where people would like to come to settle down, thus work on making it more attractive rather than just offering ice fishing.

some good points have already be made

a couple of additional thoughts:

One

How does the current trend to source labour and pools of expertise from the lower mainland and elsewhere effect the forecasts for shortages?

For example, the national accounting firms have slowly reduced their PG operations over the last 25 years as more and more local businesses access the expertise in Vancouver.

More and more professionals refuse to locate to PG as it will dead end their careers.

How about all the tradesmen that fly in and fly back to their families located in other communities. Heck, that was even the plan of the Chinese mining project.

So are the prospective lawyers, doctors, engineers, electricians, pipefitters, etc. really want to go to school here when they don’t even want to live here or have their families move here?

Two

Both UNBC and CNC have had stagnant or declining enrollments since the province opened up more seats in metro schools down south four or five years ago. Also there are far fewer high school students graduating in the local area resulting in fewer local applicants.

Gus is correct when he talks about misuse of statistics. There are students on wait lists in high demand areas while other programs are running around with huge vacancies. The leaders of course highlight the wait lists while hiding the vacancies.

When are the two schools going to learn to work together? CNC programs always do not transfer easily to UNBC and UNBC programs tend not to transfer well to the “majors universities”. There are exceptions like Nursing; however, business, engineering, education, sciences, etc. all have tranfer problems.

The result is that students that have options tend to leave town for educational opportunities where the schools can provide more flexibility, options and integrated transfer.

Bottom line:

Are the new jobs going to be serviced by out of town workers and service ? probably

Is there a enough local students to justify additional resources? not likely

Is this a bad thing? doesn’t matter, it is a reality

So on re-reading the above article, I notice that in this “the sky is falling” reaction from the universities as it pertains to projected people demand over the next decade, they are proposing an additional incentive for further economic growth which is the proper thing to do, but will, of course, increase that demand even more, especially if we have some entrepreneurs in BC who can bring some of those products to market using BC labour rather than outsourcing it.

Bear in mind that this is a university that happens to provide degrees. Not an independent study or report.

One (gus?) should likely look at their specific enrollment saturation rates.

Its all about pay… even our trades people we have in BC now are running to Oil/gas for the big money.. starting with 5 weeks holidays..big bonuses..housing allowances etc.

Have to pay to keep them…

Pretty soon Tradespeople will be having agents to negotiate their terms like athletes.

These are only estimates and these estimates largely depend on the health of economy. These estimates show a big demand in the 3 Northern BC regions. CNC and UNBC as the main actors in training of students in this region can benefit from these opportunities, assuming that they have the right programs for training the necessary students.

When we talk about external opportunities, we need to talk about internal weaknesses and strengths too. for example do we have the right engineering programs for training of engineers? Do we have professors with engineering background in the administration of CNC and UNBC to create the right programs? Is tech/engineering part of the vision of the institution?

What is needed is more dialogue between engineer professors with CNC and UNBC presidents about creating more engineering opportunities and programs with their present resources. But are they ready to meet and discuss?

“When are the two schools going to learn to work together? CNC programs always do not transfer easily to UNBC and UNBC programs tend not to transfer well to the “majors universities”. There are exceptions like Nursing; however, business, engineering, education, sciences, etc. all have tranfer problems”

What problems? According to the BC Transfer Guide,there is considerable transferability between CNC and UNBC (as well as with TRU, SFU, UBC, and UVic). CNC has block transfer for Business, Social Work, Engineering, Criminology, and Fine Arts, as well as articulated agreements for transfer of university transfer courses and others.

Be specific or else it looks like you’re just making this stuff up as you go along.

Krusty:

CNC does not have block transfer for Business …ask any CNC student that has tried to transfer in the last 5 years…the proposal for the updated block transfer agreement to rectify the problems worked out by the faculty of both insititutions has been sitting on the desks of senior managment for over two years waiting for signoff…rumour has it that the Registrar at UNBC won’t signoff, no rational provided to the faculty working groups..President of UNBC even confirmed that he couldn’t make it happen

CNC Engineering does not transfer to SFU Engineering courses, missing major second year requirements and the the first year courses do not even match up.

UNBC’s engineering only matches up to UBC’s Environmental Engineering, no Civil, Electrical, Mechanical, etc. and nothing at
SFU.

CNC Business does have a block transfer with Kwantlen, no record of any student ever using it.

Yes, faculty have worked hard to establish transfer credit and the BCAAT site lists many course to course transfers. The problems occur when students actually try to flow from one program to another. Ask any CNC Academic advisor how difficult it is to work out an academic plan.

So Krusty a few specifics..bottom line..CNC and UNBC do not play well in the sand box and are losing students because of it. There are exceptions as there are good people at both insitutions but nothing like the integration demonstrated by the SFU/Douglas or the Langara/UBC partnerships.

SFU and Douglas are in the third + year of dual registration in most Arts and Sciences programs with full intergration of academic records and academic recognition by both institutions..the students do not even need to apply for transfer credits, done by default

Specific enough?

Establishing transfer agreements is very time consuming. To save time, I once proposed in UNBC to accept by default all the transfer agreements entered between BC colleges and SFU/UBC/Victoria, instead of trying to recreate the wheel and spend time and resources re-examining all course matchings and trying to come up with new transfer agreements. The proposal would have worked in a better integration.

Taking into account that UNBC (and CNC)- because of their remote location – have major weakness in the number co-op opportunities for students, compared to lower mainland universities and colleges.

I have also seen a lack of appreciation for creating industry links initiated by the professors. In some cases the administration’s reckless decisions have cut the few links established with industry. I can name companies in Vancouver, Montreal, France and USA whose newly created links have been terminated for good and co-op opportunities and employment opportunities for students lost.

A GOOD manager creates opportunities instead of damaging opportunities.

I would like to know which employment areas will be seeking graduates. This article is not specific. Is the reason for this because it is all industry?

I would love to upgrade my skill set and remain relevant in the supposed coming employment boom in these parts. I am presently employed in a business field with different diplomas, varied experience, and university under my belt. I am always concerned about staying employable and relevant. I think these stats are good news for our area of the province. Bring work, industry, and money here!! Grow our populations, and let’s build good communities.

I really hope that accessibility to funding for education becomes easier and makes more sense for people like my daughter who, in 2016, will be attending university or college. Also, for single parents who want to work and will follow the opportunities — make it easier to afford a degree, and make it easier to pay off once graduated. Maybe a financial incentive if a person chooses a particular degree or diploma, and gets into needed fields.

I assume you have a well-stocked RESP to help your daughter out when 2016 rolls around? They’ve been around for years. Why not take advantage of the government money that available for your RESP?

If you are looking for employment areas expecting shortage of labour (in Canada), look at the text below figure 7 in:

http://www23.hrsdc.gc.ca/l.3bd.2t.1ilshtml@-eng.jsp?lid=16&fid=1&lang=en

In figure 7, numbers in Green are expected shortages in Canada. these are:

Human Resources and Business Service Professionals (NOC 112), Administrative and Regulatory Occupations (NOC 122); Other Engineers (NOC 214), Architects, Urban Planners and Land Surveyors (NOC 215), Mathematicians, Statisticians and Actuaries (NOC 216); Managers in Health, Education, Social and Community Services (NOC 031), Physicians, Dentists and Veterinarians (NOC 311), Optometrists, Chiropractors and Other Health Diagnosing and Treating Professionals (312), Therapy and Assessment Professionals (NOC 314), Nurse Supervisors and Registered Nurses (NOC 315), Medical Technologists and Technicians (NOC 321), Assisting Occupations in Support of Health Services (NOC 341); Managers in Health, Education, Social and Community Services (NOC 041), Judges, Lawyers and Quebec Notaries (NOC 411), College and Other vocational Instructors (NOC 413), Policy and Program Officers, Researchers and Consultants (NOC 416); Managers in Protective Services (NOC 064), Insurance and Real Estates Sales Occupations and Buyers (NOC 623), Police Officers and Firefighters (NOC 626), Other Occupations in Protective Service (NOC 646); Supervisors Logging and Forestry (NOC 821), Supervisors, Mining, Oil and Gas (NOC 822), Contractors, Operators and Supervisors in Agriculture, Horticulture and Aquaculture (NOC 825).

univ wrote: “These estimates show a big demand in the 3 Northern BC regions”

Where are these estimates located? I just know of the government ones I posted …. if you have different one, please let us know where they are.

I am sure if you know how to link to the work which you cite.

With a foreseeable shortage in:

– Physicians, Dentists and Veterinarians (NOC 311)
– Supervisors, Mining, Oil and Gas (NOC 822)
– Nurse Supervisors and Registered Nurses (NOC 315)
– Human Resources and Business Service Professionals (NOC 112)
– Managers in Health, Education, Social and Community Services (NOC 031)

Univ wrote: “Do we have professors with engineering background in the administration of CNC and UNBC to create the right programs?”

Definitely not CNC anymore …. used to have 20 years ago.

“Is tech/engineering part of the vision of the institution?”

No longer CNC …. again, used to be 20 years ago ….. health related technology seems to be coming back in favour …. but none of the others as far as I can tell.

Used to be that CNC wad the possibility of evolving into a Polytechnical School similar to BCIT. They missed that chance but I suspect i would still be possible. BCIT and Kwantlen have it nicely covered in the GVRD. Nothing in Victoria either.

We could easily have a strong arm of CNC being a polytech in applied bioscience, environment, natural resource extraction and manufacturing. Working in conjucntion with either one or both of BCIT and Kwantlen. But, I think CNC has no more visionaries like that and certainly no more people who have the networking skills to bring that about.

They had a post diploma program in GIS as well as approval to get a post diploma program in applied environmental science some 20 years ago ……. all fizzled ….. lousy marketing and little push from inside the administration who likes to pick the low fruit that is left after all the other colleges have done the same ….

As far as UNBC goes ….. they have the easy environmental engineering program …. they would have to put a lot of effort and money into getting a range of the traditional engineering programs into UNBC ….. look at how long it is taking to get something going that parallels the wood innovation efforts. A few years ago it looked close … then that seemed to have gone back into the cubby hole waiting for the next resurrection.

I am waiting for the outcome of the RFP for the WIC which should be coming into the public realm shortly. It may come with the annoucement of some new program at UNBC associated with that. On the other hand, it may just come as undefined space for BC Government use such as Northern Health. …… or it may just die as many other things have …..

I considered the total demand growth % of the 3 regions together (1.75 + 1.25 + .5*2)/4= 1%.

Gus … I totally agree with your comments about CNC’s visionaries that would lead the College into a Polytech type situation and the provincial networks of 20 years are long gone. In the early 80s, BCIT had a liaison officer on campus full time and the College delivered parts of at least 10 BCIT programs.

Regarding UNBC Engineering … lets be candid, UNBC delivers the first 2 years of UBC’s easy Environmental Engineering program, then students have to transfer… UNBC doesn’t even have the Math, Physics or Chemistry classes offered on a regular basis to support the general Science requirements of an Engineering degree. Not even close to specific Engineering courses required by UBC, SFU or UVic speciality programs.

So UNBC’s current Engineering is less than CNC’s programs of the 80s.

Of course, health is showing a shortage …. that has been the trend for some time ….

Just as an example … here is the projection for the Cariboo and then the GVRD+

for NOC311 – dentists, etc. – the annual rate is 2.7% of the Cariboo and 2.6% for the lower mainland …

In actual numbers that works out to 130 people required over 10 years in the Cariboo and 3,460 for the lower mainland

…… So where should a new dental school go? BC’s first Vet school ….. I think there is a new one in Calgary so I am sure we will keep importing vets from outside the province for a few more generations.

We have already taken care of physicians which would be the largest number anyway …..

According to UNBC data, the decline in UNBC enrollment numbers is more due to the decline in no of students coming from lower mainland.

In other words creating more opportunities in the lower mainland universities is more a threat to UNBC because it contributes to more decline in UNBC enrollment numbers.

A GOOD manager turns threats into opportunities not vice versa.

“In the early 80s, BCIT had a liaison officer on campus full time and the College delivered parts of at least 10 BCIT programs.”

Gee … is that right ….. ;-)

I am sorry univ ….. but the main threat is that there are palms growing and surviving in the medians in Richmond, the Davie Denman intersection and many other places …

well … that is just for starters …..

You want people to come to UNBC? … try recruiting in the rest of Canada which has real Canadian winters …. after all, that is when undergraduate programs are delivered.

Check out the Universities in Northern Ontario and see why they have higher enrolment per 1,000 inhabitants than we do …. maybe we can learn something from them ….

anotherside, Tech/engineering programs need (1) infrastructure (2) professors trained in engineering and (3) support in the management.

Let’s say I send a proposal for an engineering program to Dr George Iwama in UNBC or Dr John Bowman in CNC. How long does it take for one of them to have a meeting on it? 3 days? 3 weeks? 3 months? 3 years?

or never?

univ

Honestly, doesn’t matter as the real decisions on Engineering are made in the darkened halls at UBC .. just ask one of your SFU or UVic colleagues

However, SFU has made the old boys network play into their favour … when UBC froze them out, they just sucked up the left overs … look who has the emerging high tech programs

Hey Gus

RE: Gee … is that right ….. ;-)

You know it, you were there ..

By the way, the liasion officer is back in town and living in the Hart

My UBC, SFU, Uvic colleagues tell me that creating Engineering needs faculty members with PEng + some infrastructure.

UNBC could have created engineering when Shirley Bond was the responsible minister, but the old boys network in UNBC had no desire then. You haven’t lived in PG, if you think she couldn’t have twisted some wrists to get her way.

The question is:
“Let’s say I send a proposal for an engineering program to Dr George Iwama in UNBC …” “How long does it take … to have a meeting on it? 3 days? … or 3 years?

My Apologies to univ.

I had intended to answer after my aside .. got carried away and forgot to answer the question .. that was rude of me

My best guess .. 3 months to 3 years based on past ecperiences … however, perhaps that could be sped up through a gentle public presentation .. Presidents and Politicians both get nervous just before elections … best wishes

“the liasion officer is back in town and living in the Hart”

Must like the snow …. instead of the Burnaby mountain rain …..

“UNBC could have created engineering when Shirley Bond was the responsible minister” .. I very much doubt it.

The door has been opened with the WIC …. problem is it comes with a ridiculous small; “p” political catch … accept the downtown location for what appears to be a masters program … or possibly an industrial design program at the engineering level … extremely specialized which needs a lot of support courses and faculty who would not be attracted to here, in my opinion.

The thing is politically driven and trying to force UNBC into something that they are smart enough is destined to fail very early ….. at least that is what my observation is from the outside.

If they need any strengthening, it needs to take place on campus …. if they ever reach 7,500 or so students and the city has a larger office population downtown, they might be ready to rethink running two operation …… even the casino found that out and closed its doors downtown ….

“Let’s say I send a proposal for an engineering program to Dr George Iwama in UNBC – How long does it take … to have a meeting on it”

Moot question …. meeting have been happening for a few years …..

The decision is a provincial government one to show how serious they are ….. then the existing schools have to look at how that could work ….. and the professional assocoiation has to become involved when it gets very serious and the sooner the better, in my opinion, especially if they have some new twist on it like the environmental program at UNBC which has a forestry stream which I understand to be recognized by the Registered Professional Foresters or the Registered Forestry Professionals …….

everyone needs to have a titel, eh? … LOL

I was starting to have a deja vu moment ….

I was right ….
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/18338/3/unbcworkingonaddingengineeringprogram

“industrial design program at the engineering level”

The problem is that too many people think that this sort of stuff can be done on computers …

Yes it can …. but one needs to go through the pocess of manufacturing of mockups, material testing, best manufacturing processes based on machinery costs, etc …..

One would hate to find out that the tea pot dribbles tea as it is poured into the cup and that the cup is too hot to hold and the cup handle is to small for a man’s hand …. just to keep it simple …

But I suspect we have all experienced those situations of poor industrial design.

I don’t think UNBC Eng. proposal was an industrial design one.

UNBC has a enrollment problem and I don’t get the feeling that it is trying hard enough to address it. It seems as long as it follows the line and doesn’t shake the boat, the unbc funding will somehow arrive and there is no urgency in expanding new programs.

Assuming that this will be the case under a possible NDP government and the gravy train will not dry.

Hello folks:

Here is an excerpt of the recent press release of Nov 7 about the proposed program at UNBC:

Dale says there are some basic needs for civil and mechanical engineering in the north, “For our purposes we would like to see an engineering program that would focus on natural resource based industries and on renewable energy. I think that would make sense both for the needs of the region and for the range of expertise we currently have here at UNBC.”

Let me share my interpretation.

“We will focus on things that UBC, SFU and UVic do not do. We know there is not a lot of work in these areas yet but the old boys down South do not want us to play around in their program areas. Besides, if no one else is doing it, we can’t look bad if we don’t do a good job as there is nothing to compare to.”

Not a bad concept if UNBC can afford to plod along for 20 years without any major results as that is how long it will take to develop expertise and infrastructure for a new program area with marginalized funding. Also fits with their Forestry school and they may pull some dollars across from the forestry sector. And they will have their own monopoly board squares for themselves.

My bet is there will be a lot more civil engineering work in building resource / energy extraction then there will be “natural resource based” engineering but I may be wrong. Means most of the work will still go to UBC grads from down south.

——————————————-
Univ is absolutely correct in stating UNBC has an enrollment problem as does CNC. Nor does the leadership at either place understand the basics of demographics.

Example:
CNC Quesnel running adverts in PG to try and fill apprenticeship classes running in Quesnel while PG classes are oversubscribed. Another example of the student consumer rejecting the “master” plan. There are just not enough apprentices in Quesnel to justify running classes there. And don’t expect PG based workers to jump at the opportunity to go to Quesnel for 10 weeks. Really.

Thanks for the list, Univ!

Axman – wether I have it haven’t got a well stocked RESP for my daughter is none of your business! I’m a single parent, have been for years. You think I have enough spare money to make a well stocked RESP? Pffft! I’ll tell you what: what I’ve managed to save in an RESP will help, but it won’t cover all the costs, by far. I’ll be contributing out of my own pocket on top of using the RESP. I think that financial access or incentive should be given to students! Not every parent had the money to save up for their kids education. And some parents don’t save for their kids education (my parents being a prime example). Why you gotta be so cheeky?

If UNBC is concerned about there being a shortage of skilled workers, they should offer students a financial incentive for choosing to study in the needed areas. I think UNBC is less concerned about filling jobs and more interested in all the tuition $$$$$$ they will earn.

Nao on January 29 2013 8:50 PM

Axman – wether I have it haven’t got a well stocked RESP for my daughter is none of your business! I’m a single parent, have been for years. You think I have enough spare money to make a well stocked RESP? Pffft! I’ll tell you what: what I’ve managed to save in an RESP will help, but it won’t cover all the costs, by far. I’ll be contributing out of my own pocket on top of using the RESP. I think that financial access or incentive should be given to students! Not every parent had the money to save up for their kids education. And some parents don’t save for their kids education (my parents being a prime example). Why you gotta be so cheeky?

———————-

If it’s none of my business why are you answering the question? :) Seriously, My comment was more directed to “you” in general, not you specifically. I was merely pointing out that the government has a program where they will give you money (up to $7000 I believe) to help you stock an RESP.

Yes, I realize I answered your question :) I just wanted you to know it is not your business before I put out my defense! Lol

I didn’t know the government offered such a thing! I’m looking into it now, thanks!!

axman: “If it’s none of my business why are you answering the question? :) Seriously, My comment was more directed to “you” in general, not you specifically. I was merely pointing out that the government has a program where they will give you money (up to $7000 I believe) to help you stock an RESP.”

Yep. As a parent, I can’t afford not to contribute to an RESP for my kids. Either that, or they’ll be saddled with a huge student debt which will take years to pay off.

JohnnyBelt. Kudo’s to you. Forward thinking people are in short supply.