uh oh – dont tell the teachers. Remember the FSA’s are EVIL and they do not want to have any accountability…
Having said that I suspect the social and economic catchment areas of the school probably have more to do with these rankings than the teachers.

Interesting to see that Lyn Hall’s legacy, aka the mega school at Heather Park is way down in the listings. Maybe 700 to 800 kids in an elementary school is a bit too many? Who would have thought that? Oh wait, everybody except the school board.

Is interesting too that 3 of the top 4 schools in PG are independent. Is it possible that the public school system is failing our kids?

Posted by: interceptor on March 4 2013 10:36 AM

Having said that I suspect the social and economic catchment areas of the school probably have more to do with these rankings than the teachers.

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In some cases yes, but take a look at the average parent’s income form the list and your theory doesn’t hold much water.

For Ron Brent the average income is listed at 24,800 but at Heather Park it’s given as 75,500 yet both schools rank the same.

When I read this report, I don’t think of the teachers at all. I think about what type of child is in the Gr. 4 and Gr. 7 classes and what their parents are like. Definitely not a reflection on the teaching in these schools.

Southridge in the Lower Mainland is an international baccalaureate school that interviews the children who want to attend there. Of course they will have a high ranking, that’s what they are all about; preparing children (right from kindergaren) for higher education. No trades program in that school.

As much as I’d like to bash the public schools, let’s be fair. Independent schools have a better crop of kids to work with. The parents who send their children not only pay school taxes through their property taxes, but they pay tuition as well – so they care about their kids education – and they care whether or not the homework is done.

If a child is special needs (and by that I mean has serious behavioral issues), an independent school is not compelled to take them. So there’s no little Johnny in the back of the room having a hissy fit on a regular basis taking away from the other kids learning experience.

The teachers are non -union and generally paid less than the public system, which can be an indicator it is more of a calling, than a career, and therefore more passion put into the teaching.

I have a good friend who is a public elementary school principal, and his didn’t make the list. I also know he pays out of his own pocket for extra curricular activities for his kids so they will have a passion for outdoor activities, which will put them in good stead for life. He does a great job with what the system has given him, and these rankings will never capture that.

No ranking system is ever going to be perfect, and FSA’s are the best we have.

For all the complaining that the teachers do about FSA testing and how ‘unfair’ it is, I never hear of any alternatives that they might propose.

Interesting to see that Lyn Hall’s legacy, aka the mega school at Heather Park is way down in the listings. Maybe 700 to 800 kids in an elementary school is a bit too many? Who would have thought that? Oh wait, everybody except the school board.
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Axman … you are absolutely right regarding Lyn Hall’s legacy and the Heather Park fiasco.. however do NOT stop there … go back to Minister Shirley Bond and henchman principal Brian Pepper (now super for the district) who jammed 800 students into a modified school initially designed for 400 – 450 … Big shot Bond was on her crusade to eliminate portables that she forced through a mega school and ended up closing neighbourhood elementary schools within 5 years of Heather Park’s opening … parents and teachers have been objecting to Heather Park’s size prior to construction … What a waste !!!

interesting point axman, thanks. There is obviously not a cut and dried, one size fits all solution.

“So there’s no little Johnny in the back of the room having a hissy fit on a regular basis taking away from the other kids learning experience.”
exactly ski50 – my nephew is special needs. His mom is called constantly to get him from school because he is having either a temper tantrum or siezure. This happens multiple times a week. I love the little bugger to death but I am the first to say he has no place in a regular classroom. I truly feel sorry for the other kids who are actually there to learn. And to what is the purpose of having him in there? He is never going to go to post secondary. He is (barring a miracle) never even going to hold a job. He reads at a kindergarten level at best but just got pushed on through to grade 7 with the rest of the class…

another: “parents and teachers have been objecting to Heather Park’s size prior to construction … What a waste !!!”

It is also wasteful to have schools half-full (or half-empty?) in a district where enrollments are declining year after year.

The district left Bear Lake school open when enrollment was in the single digits. You want to talk about waste!

Posted by: JohnnyBelt on March 4 2013 11:38 AM
another: “parents and teachers have been objecting to Heather Park’s size prior to construction … What a waste !!!”

It is also wasteful to have schools half-full (or half-empty?) in a district where enrollments are declining year after year.

The district left Bear Lake school open when enrollment was in the single digits. You want to talk about waste!

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So we have two extremes. Why not meet in the middle? Heather Park and Hart Highlands have maybe 1200 students between them. Why can’t we meet in the middle and open up 4 schools at 300 students each? That would have been a more manageable size.

However, since schooling is only one half of the education process what can we do about the other half? The parents.

Some of the independent schools have “trouble” children. They come from either parents who think their children are special no matter what and they don’t discipline them or because parents want more for their child and think the public system won’t give it to them. I forgot that some of the independent schools have grants to those that can’t afford the education there.

The real amazing part is the funding that the schools get from the Province.

SD #57 schools get $8,000 per child in operating funds and $8,000 per child in capital funds.

Independent schools get $4,000 per child in operating funds and nothing for capital. Sure they charge tuition on average of roughly $3,000 per child, but it’s still way less than SD #57 schools get.

The amazing part is that independent schools have smaller classes and can do a first job with way less money.

The more one on one the kids get with the treacher the better they learn. Bond ruined that when she took over as minister. She ingnored class numbers and the concerns of teachers and parents to save money.

Ski50, I don’t know what makes you think an independent school can choose not to take a special needs kid.

Take a read through the “Charter of Rights and Freedoms”.

Every independent school I’ve seen has as many or more special needs kids as the public system.

The real question is not why we don’t give more money to the public system, but why don’t we give more to the independent system.

If the independent system performs, then why do the BCTF schools get four times more funding?

The BCTF has no incentive to become more efficient and it bugs the heck out of them that the independent schools even exist.

From a parent’s perspective, why do we need the BCTF?

Icicle the difference there is more parent involvement in independent schools than public, that is the big difference. That is how you do more with less.

In some other provincial jurisdictions, student funding follows the student as long as the student attends an accredited school/system. This allows parents and students to attend accredited, independent schools and their tax dollars follow.

Healthy competition for students is not a bad thing. Excellence is seldom achieved in a monopoly.

PS I get your point Icicle, but the BCTF is not really the recipient of your tax dollars. That would be locally elected, provincially controlled public school boards. I think your frustration would be better aimed at the politicians, especially at the provincial level.

Icicle – Only part that seems to apply is S. 15(1): Note it keeps referring to the law. Not sure it would apply when a special needs child applies to a private school as they are not being refused because they are special needs, but because the school is “private” and therefore free to choose who they want as students. And because many of these schools are also religious, the student would have to agree to their code of conduct – which has been upheld by the courts – whether we like it or not.

So public schools – being public – have to take all comers – private schools, at least as far as my experience with them has been – do not. That’s one reason why parents pull their kids from public school to private – to escape the problems our public system is having with behaviorally challenged children.

When I was growing up – many decades ago, they actually had special schools for special children and didn’t mix them. Someone thought that was a bad idea and decided to mix them. So now we have kids without behavioral problems whose education suffers because of the other kids, and where are their charter rights? No where. They have to suffer through it, or hope Mom and Dad will foot the bill for private school.

It’s a very complex problem that minds greater than ours have failed to solve. I certainly don’t want to abandon these behaviorally challenged children, but I think they need to be segregated from the general population and instructed with teachers who have special training, and much smaller class sizes.

I am continuously baffled how we never have any money to do the right thing, until someone says there’s a war, or earthquake somewhere, and suddenly we have millions of available dollars. No money for our kids, special or otherwise, but plenty for bombs.

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

That is the point though, ski50, they don’t get to refuse someone because they are special needs.

So when you stated that they could choose not to take a special needs child, not only is that not presently happening, but it is a violation of the law.

Take a look at the BC law on this. Section 8 of the Human Rights Code is pretty clear.

The independent schools are taking special needs kids and at a level equal and in some cases higher than SD 57.

The question is why don’t we give more funding to the independent schools?

Seamutt says that independent schools perform better because there is more parental involvement. Is that a valid reason for those schools to get less funding?

Anotherside,
You are right. I am frustrated with the BCTF and the reason is that it is the BCTF that attacks these independent schools. It’s not the Province or the public school boards.

The BCTF wants these schools shut down.

what is the cause of the low ratings ?
Is it the Teachers or could it be the Students or there Home ? Attitude towards School is a big thing and children pick up on this very Quick.

Icicle,
Yes, the BCTF attacks these independent schools … but it is the provincial politicians and ministries that allocate funds .. years ago, the local school districts lost any semblance of autonomy when the province scooped up provincial bargaining, removed the ability for local taxation, etc. … by the Canadian constitution, education is a provincial government jurisdiction … so let’s focus on the decision makers (Shirley Bond and her cronies) not the noise makers (the BCTF).. unfortunately in BC, we have the NDP who will side with the BCTF and the Liberals that like to centralize control of the system based on cost (which precludes appropriate funding for independent school systems)

Personally, I would welcome all school funding be based equally on enrollments to accredited schools … independent or public.

I agree with you, anotherside.

Outwest,

I offer the following comments in answer to your question based on too many years of working in the public post secondary system.

Social-economic factors usually play the dominant role. In other words, the value that education receives in the home is key in establishing the attitudes and resulting behaviour of the student. Good parenting can definitely make up for bad schooling.

However, the influence of good teaching and supported learning environments can help students that have a non-supportive home front overcome their challenges. We can probably all recall a teacher who made a difference in our education, not on what they taught but rather how they taught. However, it is more of a challenge for good teaching to make up for bad parenting.

And for the most part, students mirror the values and attitudes that surround them. Weak students are usually a product of weak home fronts and/or weak teaching. There are a few special students that can survive bad teaching and parenting. Just as a few well supported and taught students will bomb out. But these are very small in contrast to the other groups.

As members of the taxpaying public, we can only influence the home front in our own homes with our own children. But we should be able to directly influence the funding agencies and the teaching bodies through our collective voting power and public voices.

Full funding of independent schools would be an interesting proposition: competition, choices, alternatives … works for me.

And with that, I will jump off my soap box for now.

Posted by: seamutt on March 4 2013 1:32 PM

Icicle the difference there is more parent involvement in independent schools than public, that is the big difference. That is how you do more with less.

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So are you suggesting that parents of students in the independent system care more about their kid’s education then parents of kids in the public system?

Maybe that’s the key. Get the parents more involved in their kid’s upbringing.

I think too that for most teachers in the independent systems, teaching is more of a vocation then a job while it’s reversed in the public system.

A lot of you are throwing around “facts” without any stats to back any of it up. So I will do the same:

1. The top schools are all religious based schools. So, obviously religious people are smarter.

2. The top schools are all religious based schools. Obviously God blesses his followers with smarter children.

3. Private based schools depend on funding and must compete for children. In order to look better and acquire more students, their teachers teach heavily to the tes.

4. Private based schools depend on funding and must compete for children. The teachers in these schools cheat and help the students during the tests. This is easily done considering there is no outside adjudications. If you don’t believe this one, the book tipping point has a good chapter on this.

It sure is easy arguing with assumptions.

Icicle, could you please cite a source that shows pubic schools are funded $8000 for capital?

What does Cedars have that other schools don’t have? Very easy answere…Cedars has ROSEY and others that care so passionately about the education of the children that attend.

“The BCTF and their members attack these independent schools” Why?..because they are not unionized and do a better job of teaching their students because they care them and put them first. Conversly, it seems the BCTF cares more about their “collective bargaining”, their political correctness, and their pro D days than their students.

Put cedars in the middle of the hood, with the same rules on enrollment. should be interesting thehn.

I agree totally with you, gimmeabreak! You said it right.

I also agree with gimmeabreak! Private school teachers are able to focus on the job at hand because they don’t have the idiots running the BCTF breathing down their necks. The BCTF condemns private schools. The BCTF condemns the Foundation Skills Assessments (FSA). The BCTF condemns anything and everything that could possibly hold their teachers accountable for their performance or lack thereof. The biggest problem with the BCTF is that it’s run by people that think that just because they are teachers, they are smarter than the rest of us! I’ve known and have had some very good public sector teachers, but I have also had some absolute duds that had no business being in the classroom. Assessments and accountability should be the norm!

…And then you have guys like Matt Pearce who perpetuate the bad images of the BCTF. It’s too bad, because as Hart Guy says, there are lots of good teachers out there.

anotherside,
You said it all.

I agree with JohnnyBelt, there are a lot of good teachers out there. I don’t think this testing reflects teachers at all.

Right, bornndbred. I don’t like that we poo-poo the results simply because we’re ‘below average’ on the list.

If anything, schools and teachers should be trying to do everything they can to improve.

Posted by: JohnnyBelt on March 5 2013 10:12 AM

If anything, schools and teachers should be trying to do everything they can to improve.

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Unfortunately most teachers are now in it for the pay, the benefits and the never ending vacation days. There is no need for them to improve because once they’re in, you can’t get rid of them no matter how unsuited and incompetent they may be.

My child had a very good education in the public schools in Prince George. She always made the honour roll and basically enjoyed going to school everyday. However I am really glad to be out of the public school system, I see things only getting worse. I am more than happy to pay for a university education at this time in BC’s future gov’t. Just my take on this subject.