“Is it a new feeling of entitlement or just plain theft, and more over is it right? What will this young woman teach her children and what about the people watching her, does it become okay”

It’s plain theft and no it isn’t right. This is nothing new. People have been stealing since the dawn of man and they did it during your lifetime as well Ben. This is not unique to today’s generation.

Stealing is the correct assessment in my view. Unfortunately, somehow this act has become very commonplace in our society. and sadly if the parents are doing it, you can be sure that the lesson is being learned by their children.

This is a very distressing part of our society….

I believe it all boils down to no accountibility for ones actions.Seems to have realy snowballed in the last decade or so.I remember as a kid being scared as all hell when I heard the words ” reform School “.

Geez Ben hard to believe you can’t figure this out for yourself! But I guess it was a case of “call a friend or poll the audience?” just kidding! And this was just grapes, I think I saw her in her minivan speeding down the Hart with a couple toddlers strapped in the back seat texting her BFF to meet her at Tims!

It is stealing, there is no question. But we live in a time of no consequences. It starts at home.

I’ve personally witnessed a mother “sampling” grapes and other small items in the produce section, while junior was doing the same thing in the bulk candy section. She didn’t even bat an eye.

When did it become OK to have a small meal while grocery shopping? It’s not OK, there’s just no consequences anymore.

IMO if she was over filling the box it was stealing and it doesn’t matter if she is a well dressed student or someone down and out living on welfare.

I admit to moving fruit around in boxes myself. if the boxes of christmas oranges have rotten ones in them I will set the bad ones out and replace them with good oranges. I exchange 1 for 1. If she was doing that I figure it’s alright cause at least the store is selling 1 box instead of throwing out 2 with rotten fruit in them but it doesn’t sound like that’s what Ben witnessed.

Well for some of us there is no “question” as to that action being right or wrong.

Simple to see where this eventually goes… leads to stuffing tax dollars from one account into another as if the grocery store was the taxpayer and the grapes were the dollars… “do not interfere .. just let me continue stuffing…whatcha gonna do about it ??”

Also when the behaviour is without consequences, the entitlement leads to and encourages the sense of righteousness about tendering construction jobs with underhanded tactics followed by indignation and “surprise” !!!

It would seem that your Prince George and Montreal have more in common than you might think… just look around.

Disgusting … someone once said “that few people in Canada get ahead by being honest”

Sadly this little “grape” story illustrates that perfectly.

Keep your face to the sun my friends :)

V.

From a previous article! Mother taught her well.

“It’s only wrong if you get caught.”

Is it okay to speed? Is it okay to drink and drive? Is it okay to do many other things that society says is illegal or unethical? Most would say no and all will say sorry when they get caught.

You were on hidden camera Ben! They wanted to see if you would do the right thing.

imho this is an example of the malaise of society itself. is it acceptable for the grocery store to sell people rotten grapes by boxing them in such a manner that customers buy a box containing good and rotten grapes? at the same time is it not acceptable for the customer to take steps to protect themselves? who broke whose rules? but on the whole as a society we are on a slippery slope. politicians insist on making rules in areas that are none of their business, such as seat belt rules complete with massive fines that have no relationship to our individual safety, just a money grab. then they are surprised that we obey these rules selectively, obeying the ones we agree with and ignoring the ones we don’t like. have you ever been passed on a double yellow line? is there any surprise our kids stretch the boundaries of which rules to obey or disobey further than we did? the far end of this slippery slope is total anarchy and the only way to stop it is to rein in our politicians.

“Just what is right or wrong?”
A very good question.
I recently witnessed a down and out looking older native gentleman pinch 2 cans of Campbell soup in the local Overwaitea.
Had him dead to rights as he slipped it in to a small pack sack.
He knew I had seen him, I think…as he wandered off towards the exit.
I fought with myself over it for a few minutes and just let it go.
I’m not sure why?
For some reason…I felt bad for the guy.
My conscience didn’t justify turning him in, but does that always make it right?
Obviously, if you steal 2 cans of Campbell soup…you are either hungry or destitute.
Right or wrong…not a simple question answer.
What you witnessed Ben, may have been an entirely different scenario.
Awkward position to be in.

I agree with the sentiments about picking and choosing laws but for some reason theft seems worse. I know I can drive too fast sometimes. Others on here have admitted to cannibis use. Others drive all day in the left lane… ;)
We all seem to pick and choose certain laws to not adhere to. For reasons I cannot explain theft seems worse to me.

Funny related story – About a month ago I bought some grapes and they were horribly sour. So last week I looked at the grapes and then tried one to make sure they were good before I bought them. I felt like I had just robbed a bank. My first thought was “its just one grape” and then I thought “if every person that came through this store took just one grape…” It bothered me to the point that I told the cashier that I had sampled one. She laughed at me – lol

Of course it’s stealing. It’s all part of the anything goes, accept no responsibility, entitled society we live in.

It’s stealing.
Thou shalt not steal.
The further we get from those commandments, the worse off we all are.
People like moral relativism because they can change the rules to whatever suits them.

To Andyfreeze – why didn’t you just offer to pay for the 2 cans of soup???
You would have helped the fellow, done your part to stop a theft, and perhaps given him some hope.
To let a crime go is to be complicit in that act.

No question…stealing is stealing and it’s wrong.
Having said that…I always sample the grapes before I buy and I assume everyone does…seen it done so many times!
But it is still stealing I suppose…
I have often wanted to sample the pepperoni before I buy it…but I don’t.
I wonder why it is ok with grapes?

Good point Jetstream…I may have done that had I thought of it, but didn’t really have time.

Andy: “I have often wanted to sample the pepperoni before I buy it…but I don’t.
I wonder why it is ok with grapes?”

The answer is that it’s not ok to sample grapes even though you saw others doing it. Same with people who sample in the bulk foods aisle. It’s also not entirely sanitary.

Andyfreeze – I’m not condemning you, just pointing out that we can all do our part to improve… :-)

When each individual sets their own ‘laws’ of right and wrong, we create our own threshold.

For instance, what if a bully was beating a little kid? Would Ben or anyone else here have just asked “Why are you doing that?” and then walked on? I seriously doubt it. Or what if the person was stealing a tool off of Ben’s yard, etc? See how situational ethics has destroyed the moral fiber of our society?

Once we turn away from an objective moral law to abide by, we only have our own feelings to control us and they are never an absolute certainty.

Andyfreeze – I’m not condemning you, just pointing out that we can all do our part to improve… :-)

When each individual sets their own ‘laws’ of right and wrong, we create our own threshold.

For instance, what if a bully was beating a little kid? Would Ben or anyone else here have just asked “Why are you doing that?” and then walked on? I seriously doubt it. Or what if the person was stealing a tool off of Ben’s yard, etc? See how situational ethics has destroyed the moral fiber of our society?

Once we turn away from an objective moral law to abide by, we only have our own feelings to control us and they are never an absolute certainty.

Well I just learned something.
Never hit the refresh button until you have moved off the thread :-)

Not sure what the issue is here. How does she pay for the grapes?? By the box or by weight. How do we know that someone had not already taken some out of the container, and she was just loading it back up from another container.

Are we to believe that the store staff have the exact same amount of grapes in each container, or do the amounts vary, and therefore you could be short changed if you grab the wrong box. Lots of questions, few answers.

Years ago pilferage on the waterfront was standard practice, and a huge problem. When the docks went to containers, the Longshoremens Union tried to negotiate a 10% increase in wages, to replace **loss of pilferage**.

Stealing is part of the history of the world, however as usual the focus is on the people on the low end of the totem pole, even though we know that the real theft takes place at the higher levels.

Have a nice day.

“When did it become OK to have a small meal while grocery shopping” .. when Costco opened. I think this is all just sour grapes. Why is adding extra grapes to a box (if they are sold by the box) any different than cramming as many olives into a container when buying them that way? You can fill your container of olives yourself at a local large grocery store and the price is fixed for the “container”, not the amount of olives in it.

“I admit to moving fruit around in boxes myself. if the boxes of christmas oranges have rotten ones in them I will set the bad ones out and replace them with good oranges. I exchange 1 for 1.” .. And what about the box your have shortchanged? Wouldn’t it be logical that the person getting that box should be able to top it up?

Never smiled I bet. Wow , to bad really.

Interesting question

First off yes it is stealing if the grapes are being sold by the box. You never mentioned that she had kids with her so cant say about what she is teaching her kids, or even if she has any (I eat Cheerios :)

I find these days the attitude really all goes to Jealousy. Its okay if I do it, but if you do it its stealing, wrong etc.

He drives a nice car, must sell drugs, not oh he must have saved up to pay for it. Look at his house.. wonder who he ripped off to pay for it or he must have had a nice inheritance. We are no longer happy for the good fortunes others have.. we think its wrong because it wasnt us it happened to… Jealousy

Maybe if asking what is right or wrong and better example would be, Is it right to use taxpayers money to buy property on the assumption you were promised a quick profit on a quick flip, and then decide to not pay for it when things don’t go your way?

censored: Was she Blonde?

Grapes are sold by the pound. Regardless if she stuffs the box or takes some out, it’s still sold by the pound. I hate the ones in a bag. The bag looks so small and don’t wanna buy two bags. But I understand they are packaged for sanitary reasons.
What’s so different from the guy and the soups and the shopper sampling stuff?? Because he was Native? That makes it wrong??

…so I guess breaking the stems off the broccoli would be frowned upon ?

Here is my take. When I went shopping with my grandmother at the local corner green grocer sampling was perfectly alright. It was done in a small store with the owner looking on.

When I went shopping in Kensingon Market in my early 20’s, the stores were still the same as the ones I used to frequent with my grandmother. In cheese shops, and others selling similar types of produce, the store clerks were standing behind the piles of cheese rounds out on top of the front counter, would peer between them and engage the next customer, offering a slice of a new cheese or any cheese you wanted. Basically the customer was checking out what they were going to get, making up their mind with the help of the store clerk.

With our prepackaged system, we have invented a system which takes that interaction away in most places. It is still there in a deli, which we have mostly lost in PG. But, it can still be requested at deli counters in the large 60,000 to 100,000+ square foot mega stores. In Costco they have little stands which peddle the selections of the day.

But when it comes to fruit especially which easily spoils, the produce stockers do not always check to see the state of the produce they sell. So, when a head of romaine is priced at $1.29 a head, who takes the first one they grab, as opposed to going through several to inspect for wilted leaf ends and weight and feels good when they find one they feel is the best? Who goes through a pile of Roma tomatoes to pick 5 good ones rather than just grabbing a few. In fact, I venture to say that there are people who no longer possess the art of picking a good cantaloupe or pineapple. How many people grab a plastic container of strawberries and see three or four on the bottom that have gone bad, as opposed to people who take a box, turn it upside down to check the condition of as many strawberries as are visible.

It is still a world where the merchant offers a product for sale and a customer has a right to inspect whether they are getting the value they expect. Did the person who was “stuffing” the grapes do something abnormal? I do not know. I was not there. If she was removing bad grapes from a box and restoring them with good ones. Maybe. I think in that case it would have been better for her to engage a clerk, if there was one handy and mention to him that the grapes were not in the best shape and ask him to put a 50% or 30% reduced sticker on it as they do in Superstore.

I am also not sure whether this was a hard plastic container such as what strawberries and blueberries come in which are sold at a fixed price per box, or whether this was a plastic bag that grapes normally come in. If it was the latter, she could stuff it all she wants to, it gets weighed and priced at the till.

Here’s another take on this story. How do feel about your grocer or butcher when you get home and open the package of chicken or ribs only to find that they have carefully hidden 25% of the weight of the product in excess fat – carefully tucked in under the good looking lean meat portions.

“so I guess breaking the stems off the broccoli would be frowned upon ?”

I am starting to find that in some stores they now sell broccoli as small florettes, the large stemmed ones with head, and the in between ones.

Often the florettes are less expensive, possibly because they are from larger parts which have started to go bad.

I have not seen brocolli stems being sold without florettes on them. But maybe that will come next. ;-)

Good for you for saying something to the lady. I think it is stealing if she was filling a box and not if she was buying by the weight. I would say that she was probably stealing if she didn’t say anything to you and then stopped when a grocery store employee came by.

What bothers me is that she didn’t stop when you said something to her. I really dislike the lack of respect for her fellow man but not answering your question.

While I agree that stealing has been around for a long time, I do have to say that the 20-somethings certainly have a sense of entitlement about them.

Not theft until she leaves the premises with the goods.

I have to agree with Pal, When you look at the increase in grocery prices makes one wonder whos doing the stealing. The cost of gas it has beecome acceptable for large corporations to down load from the consumer.

Next time just help her stuff the grapes Ben.
Cheers

opine… your comment reminds me of an older piece of artwork I saw that I’ve never forgotten. It may have even been a old Normal Rockwell, as it had that style.

It’s a picture of an older woman shopper and a male grocer staring at the weight of whatever product was placed on the hanging scale. He’s placing his finger on the top, pulling down, trying to make the product heaver, while at the same time she’s placing her finger under the tray to make it appear lighter.

That is a good example, opine. I guess we are supposed to find a butcher where we can see what we are getting. Well, they have all but disappeared in small towns and exist only in large cities where ethnic populations still support them.

I remember coming from Europe as a kid and my mother being appalled at the quality of food products sold here, especially baked goods and meats.

That has since changed, but not in small town North America.

“I do have to say that the 20-somethings certainly have a sense of entitlement about them”

HUH? Have you ever shopped where little old ladies from Europe and Asia shop? Seems like you have not.

“…so I guess breaking the stems off the broccoli would be frowned upon ?”

Yes! I waited for several minutes the other day at the SaveOn in the Hart while a senior lady in front of me groped every bunch of broccoli breaking of pieces and putting them into her plastic bag, leaving the mutilated ones behind for other customers to buy!

Needles to say I finally moved on without buying any because handling of fruits and vegetables with bare hands is a sure spreader of germs picked up from shopping cars, these being the dirtiest followed by door handles.

Far too many people never wash their hands after using the toilet!

Enjoy your grapes!

Grapes taste different even though they may look the same. Some are bitter, some are nice and juicy,some are mealy, etc.

It woulde be a good policy of stores to have some grapes available for taste testing.

Let us go one step further. If the grapes are not juicy and sweet, would there be lots of sales if a sample was available to test? Not likely.

So, perhaps a store could put out a juicy sample and refresh during the day to make sure they stay that way, cool and juicy.

Would that be “stealing” from the customer?

http://unbounce.com/lead-generation/conversion-psychology-1-why-stealing-grapes-increases-form-conversions-case-study

I think the saying goes “buyer beware”.

“Enjoy your grapes!”

You forgot to say after washing them with fluoridated water. ;-)

Did the pieces have spots of little wilted florettes?

She likely knew what was good and what was not so good.

Thanks Prince George – If you don’t wash your fruit and veggies when you get home just think of how many people may have handled them before it makes it to your lips.

Gus – thanks for the memory. I grew up in my families grocery/butcher/delicatessen story and have seen it all. We had a very large Italian and White Russian population (let’s see how many of you can come up with a geographic location). Haggling with these two ethnic groups was the best of times and the worst of times.

Depending on what they wanted – they either chose to understand English or were totally devoid of the English language.

Stealing grapes was nothing. You should see how many slices of expensive meats and cheeses were eaten before finding what they actually wanted. Good memories though – and an incredible upbringing in regard to tolerance, customer service and appreciation.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/shopping-consumer-products/659085-does-anyone-sample-grape-before-they.html

A site which deals with the topic of sampling grapes.

Here is a short point made:
“I try a grape everytime. Why would I buy somethin if its sour or just plain nasty tasting? When they taste good, I buy it. My mom has always done the same thing too.”

Here is another:

“Lot of talk about the sampling of a grape etc.

Bear in mind…that one grape could lose a lot of future business if the customer was alienated.

Ask any grocery Mgr if the LOSS of future profits is worth the cost on ONE grape here or there.

I know for a fact as I was in the Grocery trade for 23 yrs.

It’s all part of (PR) public relations and good will not to lose a customers future business.

Think in terms of ONE CENT added to the price of one item over a days sales will more then make up for a minor loss.

Pilferage and loss are taken into consideration on pricing in a Grocery operation.”

Sounds like west of Ontario, Opine.

I’ll hazard a guess as likely Manitoba, probably Winnipeg area.

Three rules.
1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Now you know what is right or wrong – unless you’re a masochist or sociopath)
2. Let he who be without fault cast the first stone (This is to remind you we all get rule 1 wrong every now and then)
3. Forgive, as you have been forgiven (This is because we all screw up and when we do, we hope people will cut us some slack, so maybe we should do the same when others screw up)

Unfortunately, I’m fairly certain in our humanistic society these rules are no longer taught because they are based on Christianity – which has a spotty record when it comes to following the self same rules and is no longer the religion in vogue.

Sampling cheese in excessive amounts, LOL.

We can shop at Costco while taking samples here and there and have lunch.

I rarely take a sample of something I am unfamiliar with. I only go for what I know and like.

I really do not think that the store manager does not realize that as he laughs all the way to the bank seeing people like me happily shopping in his store during sampling time instead of at a competing store.

gus, yes I have shopped where those “little old ladies from Asia and Europe” shop. Don’t be so sexist. Apparently you have never dealt with the little old men from Asia and Europe.

Apparently you also don’t have any connections with the 20-somethings either.

This is so refreshing to see some good banter on something other than politcal bashing for a change.

Costco costs you $60.00 a year to shop, so the only way to get your monies worth, is to eat lots of samples.

$60.00 worth is just about right.

Good thought, Palopu. It is part of membership benefits.

Checking to make sure you did not steal anything when leaving is also part of membeship benefits ….

Oh wait, forgot, they check to make sure that the cashier added all you items up properly and did not overcharge .. LOL

“Apparently you also don’t have any connections with the 20-somethings either.”

I am not quite sure why that is apparent. I do have children who have a very good sense of what they are entitled to and what they are not entitled to. At least in my opinion.

As far as the men versus women go, it sounds like you have not experienced matriarchic families which are certainly the dominant characteristics of old European families. The men might think they are the rooster, but that is the whole idea, they only think they are.

If they go shopping, they might move the cart or carry the shopping bags. :-)

Sort of on a similar topic, I wonder how many people would return to the cashier when they found out they were undercharged? My guess is very few.

And yes, I have gone back to the cashier at times when I noticed. They are usually quite surprised.

IMHO there are no degrees of theft. Either it is theft or not. Arguing that theft of small items or by someone who cannot afford the item is similar to stating that a person is only a little bit dead. Either they are or are not. The permissiveness of society in accepting the ideals of entitlement and no accountability are at the root of the idea that a ‘little theft’ is ok. Unfortunately, our legal system appears to punish small theft much more harshly than theft on a grand scale. Perhaps this is because the ‘grand scale’ thiefs can afford the most expensive lawyers and get off on technicalities whereas the unfortunates have to utilize the overworked services of court appointed lawyers or none at all, depending on the mood of the gveernment of the day. Too bad society still doesn’t recognize that right and wrong are absolutes and not just suggestions.

Ben this is nothing new. It has been happening for years. 35 years ago I worked in a grocery store and here are few things that people did back then. Egg containers were all the same size. A peewee egg you could buy for 59 cents a dozen. Customers would take the large eggs that cost $1.29, stand there and remove a dozen eggs from one carton and replace them with the other larger eggs. Then there was the crisco that came in a 1 pound block of shorttening and placed in a lovely blue card board box. cost 69 cents. guess what else weighs 1 pound? Yes a pound of butter that cost $2.09. take the criso out of the box and in goes the butter.

also the store I worked in was in a down town area, at noon executives and busness people would come in at their lunch time. this was not 1 or 2 people we had 4 to 5 well dressed business men come in almost every day and peel a banana eat it while they were Qoute “shopping” go to the shelled nuts, grab a bag and continue down the isle towards the dairy department while they stuffed nuts in in their mouths. By now they have arrived at the dairy deptment where they can dispose of the banana peel and the empty plastic bag of nuts. now they were thirsty and would grab a pint of milk to wash it down with. dispose of the container and just walk out the door. Free lunch. Yes this happened all the time. I would be constantly picking up their garbage from the free meal. One day after collecting a rather large container of free meal garbage, I actualy went to the store manager and showed him the garbage. I then proceeded to point out that we had electric opening doors. the customers have step on the weight sensitive door mat in order to activate the door opening. My sugestion to him what that we hook up scale as well when they came through the door we could take their weight and upon leaving the store we would take their weight again and then charge them a flat fee per pound that they gained.

Great ethical question. Open to many interpretations..:)

This is not very rare in PG. I have seen even stuff that I have bought in PG with the seal damaged and some of the liquid or contents drank or missing.

I haven’t experienced this in big cities in Canada that I have lived.

These may be young petite thieves, but we have also seen much older and much educated and much more sophisticated thieves in PG who have gone unpunished …

On the overall scheme of things, what’s the penalty? A dirty look? An unapproving glance? A Tsk. Tsk? A word of censure? A smart ass remark about theft? Rat on them to the manager? Call 9-11? Call a cop? Have them arrested for theft under $500 dollars? Shake yer head whilst rolling yer eyes? Think about the world going to hell in a hand basket? What then? IMO I would just roll my eyes and thank my lucky stars I ain’t like them. Maybe a holier than thou moment for yerself? Would work for me.

Gus:”You forgot to say after washing them with fluoridated water. ;-)”

I do wash all my veggies and fruits with fluoridated tap water! It’s the only water I can get from the tap! The chlorine in the tap water makes water safer as it kills germs and bacteria. It’s a water treatment method which is relatively safe. Fluoridation however is not for treating water – it is a method of treating patients with a chemical without their permission or consent in an uncontrolled manner! :-(

Lots of food for thought today…-:)

“Too bad society still doesn’t recognize that right and wrong are absolutes”

Rights and wrongs are not absolutes in Common Law. That is why we have courts. If they were absolutes, then we could just have clerks administering the law.

Billy the Conquerer knew that as early as the 11th century.

I avoid St Vincent De Costco like the plague. The soup kitchen doesn’t open until about 10:30. I’m gone by then because I can’t stand looking at the sorry folks standing in line for two bites of pizza or a paper cup with three chips in it. I truly wish they would stop that insane practice. Maybe they could lower the membership fees if they did.

It’s only wrong if you get caught! If you see someone doing this and don’t turn them in then you are just as guilty as they are!

It’s only wrong if you get caught! If you see someone doing this and don’t turn them in then you are just as guilty as they are!
============================================

Really?? And do you think the RCMP will attend the scene? Should we whip out the smart phone and call 911?

You can drive drunk and kill people and don’t even get jail time….do you suppose they will get two years less a day for pinching a couple of grapes??

I don’t know about the situation because its too vague. Putting grapes in a box? Is it a grape box or a Cheerios box?

All I know is I buy lots of grapes… probably spend $15 on grapes every week. I don’t buy them unless I’ve tasted them and if the store doesn’t like it I won’t shop there. They cost too much not to sample or risk spending good money on rotten grapes. Its the cost of doing business not theft. The quality of things like grapes determines where a $200 grocery bill gets spent.

A couple of grapes to see if they are past the point of no return is reasonable and par for the course when I worked in produce at Overwaitea many years ago.

Stuffing a cereal box is another thing, that is theft clearly.

Grapes are the most pesticide and herbicide treated grocery item one can find in the store. It’s very difficult to grow organic certified grapes so unless they have those I refrain from buying grapes.

opine –my guess for the shopping area is kensington market in toronto

I think he was trying to point out how much of a jerk this women came off as.