Sell it! The City should not be engaged in competition with other viable businesses in town.

The taxpayers of this city want the City to control costs, but every time they roll out a plan to do that, someone whines and snivels. I guess some people just can’t be appeased. We spend $20 million every year on parks and recreation. Well that’s ~$300 for every man woman and child annually. That could pay for a lot of road repair. You don’t need 10’s of millions of dollars in infrastructure to facilitate recreation, you just need a little imagination.

How much does the city want for it? Maybe someone can do a green space fund raiser and buy it off of the city. Give it to the regional district and they can run it!

Sine, if the spending at city hall was controlled we wouldn’t need to sell park space. Remember these are the clowns that wanted to spend millions on a dike for a river that rarely floods. If the city managed our money better we wouldn’t be in this mess.

Ummmm Pine Valley is a pitch and put and isn’t hurting the other golf courses in town.

sell it off. Or maybe another option. could it be made into a 9 hole pitch and putt and sell off half the land?

Ya maybe we should sell it, and then put in some more car lots, city council should concentrate on bringing in and retaining business downtown

Use the land to develop a beautiful subdivision with high end houses.

Pine Valley is an ideal course for seniors, younger people, and those with disabilities, plus regular golfers. It is close to the city, and is reasonable priced.

It is a City owned facility and for many, many years (when it had a driving range) it made significant dollars for the City. I believe in the last couple of years, because of the Pine Beetle, and our screwed up economy it lost $42000.00 per year. Hardly a huge cost to the City.

Other Cities have municipal courses, that serve the public. Greater Vancouver area has about five.

Council voted in 2010 to keep this Golf Course, and to preserve it as green space.

It was only when the sale of the Prince George Golf and Curling Club fell through that they turned their guns on Pine Valley for sale.

Once the course (green space) is gone, it is gone for ever, so people need to give serious consideration to what is taking place here.

My son went there on the weekend (twilight) with a coule of friends. I think there was one other group golfing and that was it. Sell it and hopefully some of the privately owned small courses can make improvements to the their facilities with the extra users coming to play.

I have been a long time golfer at Pine Valley and I know this golf course and green space is greatly appreciated by many, especially seniors…..does the City really need to be in the business of selling public assets, that are not in the red and also provide many social and recreational benefits to citizens…..Council’s decisions shouldn’t be just about ways to make money

What are they planning to use the proceeds from this sale (approx 13 mil)for? I don’t think it would be fair to sell off this large parcelof green/recreational space just to make money for infrastructure repairs, road rehab, etc, or to boost up development in other parts of the City i.e. downtown?

There seems to be a gap in long term planning and priortizing with this City Council. I don’t beleive they have yet figured out how to effectivly and efficiently use the tax dollars the city currently collects from citizens, i.e. spending approx $350,000 on a core review process that was conducted externally by KPMG…..just because KPMG suggested selling PV is a great opportunity and place to find money doesn’t mean it is in the best interest of the Citizens of PG….just saying

do the Citizens of PG and friends of PV want to pave paradise and put up another parking lot….we sure don’t need another car dealership in that area.

Those that want it sold because it doesnt make money, what else should we sell that fits that criteria? The minor boys and girls softball fields? They certainly dont “make money”. How about Massich stadium, get rid of it too. Fort George park cant come out ahead on the ledger book either can it? Oh and all of those soccer fields up on 15th, while thousands of people use them, they cant possibly MAKE money so shut em down too… We can have low income housing and car lots everywhere!

Maybe some should look at where the funds will go if PV is sold. It will not go into infrastructure. Talk to your mayor and council it will go into capital projects. Does the PAC ring a bell?

Why does the City need to be in the Golf business? Answer: It doesn’t.

Sell it. There are other options for pitch and put players.

^^^^perhaps you can tell us why the city gives the Golf and Curling club thousands of our tax dollars a year? What about the hockey team? They are businesses that should be looking after themselves. What the city gives to PV is peanuts compared to what they give these two organizations…

I am sure the Yellowhead golf course,a great pitch and putt, could and would welcome the ‘displaced’ golfers.

Pine Valley has never made money, ever. Even when it had a driving range it was always subsidized. Not as much as now, but still subsidized.
That being said, no municipal recreation facilities make money, nor could they and still provide their services at a rate that folks would consider reasonable.
As an example, there’s a reason there’s no private ice rinks in PG (Actually two reasons)- 1) no one would be prepared to pay enough to keep it profitable ($250+ per hour easy), and 2) there is also more than enough ice for PG currently. I’ve heard the conspiracy theories of the City trying to prevent private ice and they’re all lies. Do up a business plan and you’ll see they can’t compete in a population our size as long as there is subsidized municipal ice.
As for Pine Valley I have no issues with it being subsidized as long as it is serving a unique target market that requires that type of service. It certainly fills that bill for seniors and lower incomers at the moment compared to other golfing options.

The issue is not about whether the City should be in the Golf business or not….the bigger long term picture is looking at what makes a City healthy, safe, vibrant, interesting and affordable.

Shouldn’t the main objective be about building a city in which we can all be proud of; a city where people want to establish home and where there exists a sustainable and diverse economy and create a city in which people choose to retire in….thats what I’m looking for

IMHO a more balanced approach to the City’s future development is needed and not just jumpimg at the first money making opportunity that comes out of the Core review. What options are available? Is the City open to looking at selling a portion of PV and keeping some for a smaller par 3 golf course or for green/recreational land use?

Save Pine Valley, sell the cemetery. The city doesn’t need to be in the dead people business.

ya’ll been snookered.
They want to sell off the golf course to make it part of the pg automall being developed along that stretch.

Chev has already moved in.
Honda is up and running.
Toyota is being built.

Business interests trump life style.

once the golf course/park has been sold, the City will eventually lose control over the lands long term use (just look at the other recent land use fiascos)

in the verse of a famous prairie girl, ” That you don’t know what you got ’til it’s gone. They paved paradise to put up a parking lot.” from Big Yellow Taxi .. Thanks Joni.

there are three major problems with the idea of selling this green space.

1. Pine valley offers a causal and easy introduction to the game that provides valuable recreation, easily accessible to both youth and seniors who will not go elsewhere to play.

2. If the city is to remain attractive and competitive parks and family oriented recreation opportunities are critically important and the city already doesn’t have enough green space.

3. The biggest argument against selling is the current market reality. To sell there has to be a buyer and there is already lots and lots and lots of available and properly zoned land for commercial or residential development for the next twenty plus years. If the city brings this property on the market now it will reduce the value of both Pine Valley and all the private property that’s already available and waiting on a buyer. It makes absolutely no sense to add property when there is little to no demand or need. Keep it until the market demand increases in about twenty years then if you want to sell it at least taxpayers will get maximum return. It comes down to basic supply and demand and something that the city is already well aware of.

The real question is will the political backroom maneuvering result in a fire sale of PV or will the principled approach that staff should be taking in reviewing this prevail. I am betting on the politicians getting their way as there are a few powerful special interest groups that would like to see Pine Valley close and others that would like to get their hands on the money that might come from the sale.

I am a right winger, but I don’t think we need to sell Pine Valley gold course.

You really want to save money. Get rid off 100 positions in city hall over the next five years. 250 person years. That will save us probably 15 million dollars in that time period.

As a tax payer, I don’t mind expecting less services from the ivory tower. Don’t cut the jobs from the field workers. Deal with people with their heads stuck in the red tape and dreamers who come up with lets “make a position for that”. Get back to basics. Let free enterprise do their job.

How do we do it with the unions. Have plan to provide less. For the next five years, for every 3 person that quits or retires. only one person gets hired back. Less expectaion from the taxpayers means city provides less services! I’m for that movement.

There is not a lot to do in this city, so, please do not get rid of the golf coarse. It is one that our kids can get to easily and have excerise doing something beside sitting on computers. This city really needs this.

There is absolutely a good case for keeping this Golf Course. There will be many more seniors in the town in the next few years, and this is a good course for them. In addition is serves youth, regular golfers, and minority groups. Once its gone, its gone forever.

The money from the land will not go to fix roads. In fact the Mayor is on record stating that the money for roads will come from the road levy, and if they need more money the road levy will be increased.

In fact the money will be transferred into the Capital Funds and be used for Capital Funds projects, or other infrastructure projects. However no one seems to know specifically what these projects might be.

The only Capital Fund projects that are presently **hanging out** at City hall are the Performing Arts Centre, and perhaps the City still wants to build the dike, however without having to borrow the money, so they can side step an alternative approval process, or a referendum.

Sooooo. The real question is. Where will the funds from the sale of the Pine Valley property be spent???

Anyone care to give us an answer???

Loki has it right. We are being snookered.

Can you say more white elephants, a la widc or pac, or downtown heating system, or nissan leaf, …

If it does not yet exist, they will come up with a way to piddle away tax money on go nowhere projects while leaving infrastructure to deteriorate.

City hall priority seems to be providing select contractors with projects on public money for private profit.

What do you say to a Vancouver style municipal party to run against the green machine next election? Call it “pg citizens for a better city”.
I nominate Gus, with Palopu as campaign manager.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. This could be a PERFECT location for PG’s first “village” or “borough” type development.

Have light retail, higher density residential and ample green space. Service it with transit to and from UNBC and the downtown core and plan it in such a way that encourages foot traffic within the development area itself.

Make it a neighbourhood with character that has easy access to the essential stuff that people need and have attractions that will draw others into the area (nice park, skating pond in the winter, nice running/rollerblading trails in the summer, etc.). Make it a community within the city. Based on what I’ve seen in my travels on this side of the continent, people LOVE places like that.

I say try something different from the typical PG development and see what happens. You may just be surprised with the results. Of course, the only downside is that there isn’t a soul in PG who could actually develop something like that. It takes vision . . .

I echo NMG. Offer it to a lower mainland developer…they know how to do it and quickly.

Realitycheck. My understanding is that the Pine Valley Golf Course actually made money for the City when they had a driving range. (which the City sold). They made approx. $80,000.00 per year from the proceeds of the golf course.

There is talk of putting a driving range back in, but even if they don’t, it only costs the City $42000.00 per year to operate, and this could and will be a lot less as more people utilize the course.

If you have facts and figures that Pine Valley has never made money, even with the driving range, and has always be subsidized I would like to see some facts and figures.

This is a no brainer, the city sells the golf course, then builds the performing arts center. Just wait

You might be right seamutt. Seems they are going to sell the Playhouse Theatre lands, and the money from the sale will go towards the Performing Arts Centre. If they need more money not doubt they can get if from the Pine Centre land sale. Who knows.

I would not like to think that the City would sell the Tennis Court lands build new Tennis Courts on the North end of the PG Golf and Curling club. Put $800,000.00 into the Golf Course building, then sell the Playhouse lands and put that money into a Performing Arts Centre, and then sell the Pine Centre property, and tell the patrons of Pine Valley to take a hike.

If that actually happens, then we need to determine if funding and finance in this town is discriminatory .

On tonights news Stoltz talked about more value selling Pine Valley then a bit later Green talks about the PAC. Coincidence?

It’s a crap golf course, and not cheap for the product. Been there, haven’t seen many seniors or disabled relishing the experience. Go to yellowhead for the game. Time for some tough calls. This says sell to me.

Do a search on the city website: Pine Valley 2008 add different years up to 2012.

The property was slated for a car mall many years ago.

When the PG Golf & curling was looking for land years ago on Foothills it was slated Pine Valley would move there as a smaller golf course and all the other areas in the vicinity were to be apartments, condos,little green space, hotels, small strip malls and a humongous car mall.

Maybe Wood/Wheaton knew something the rest did not when it was built on the prime of the highway?

I found at least 3 different consulting firms that this city hired – wasted our tax dollars on when our planning dept should be doing this work……

If I am not mistaken: The City of Prince George had a registered Section 219 covenant interest in all of the PGGCC lands. The general terms of the covenant are that the PGGCC lands are to remain in recreational use. Therefore, the City controls the uses of the lands through
both the zoning regulations and the existing restrictive covenant.

dow7500. I have been there on a number of occasions and have seen lots of Seniors, juniors etc;. The course (greens) are in excellent condition, and will only get better as the year progress’s.

Pine Valley gets about 12000 rounds per year, so someone must be using it. That’s about 500 rounds per week, or +- 70 rounds per day.

Why should we sell out a Golf Course that we own and use (at very little cost) to facilitate some commercial endeavor that could locate anywhere in the City.

Its time these business interests started to look somewhere other than recreational property to build their enterprises.

The whole development of Highway 16 West is to capture the traffic coming in from the West. ie; Kitimat, Pr Rupert to Vanderhoof BC. and to sell them their products at a huge profit.

Why should we give up a Golf Course to these salesmen???

In any event those who are in favour of keeping the course should try and get to the rally on Wednesday May 22nd at 6pm, and those in favour of selling don’t need to do anything.

Guesswhat. There are a number of issues regarding the land along Highway 16 West. This property was given to the City back in the late 1930’s when the Airport was relocated at its present location.

One of the conditions of the Federal Government giving this land to the City was that it was to be used for recreational purposes in perpetuity. I don’t believe that the PGGCC land was part of this agreement.

The City got around the issue of perpetuity, by offering to relocate those people who were using the land for recreation, to other areas of the City;
Ie; The ball diamonds, were relocated to Carrie Jane Grey Park and North Nechako, and the Horseshoe pits were relocated to Carrie Jane Park. This allowed the City to sell this land for commercial development. Ie; Shopping Centre, and the Sands Hotel.

In addition the City is now moving the Tennis Courts and relocating them to the North End of the PGGCC, even though they just established the Tennis Courts there appx 10/15 years ago. This move will cost approx. $1.5 Million which includes a $800,000.00 reno to the PGGCC, and probably does not include the cost of razing a perfectly good building and tennis courts.

The Pine Vally Golf Course lands are part of the Federal Governments gift to the City, and therefore if they are to be sold, at the very least the City should provide another course at another location, and In fact in the past they have offered to do so. One location was to be in lower college heights.

The users of the Pine Valley Course prefer to remain where they are, and in fact have every right to do so. The City in fact voted in 2010 to leave this course where it was, and designated it a (green belt) in the Official Community Plan.

Fast forward to 2013, and they want to sell it again. Mayor green actually voted to keep Pine Valley where it was in 2010, along with a majority of other Councillors, so what has changed.??? Furthermore the City now states that the offer to locate the course in a different area is off the table. However it seems that they can sell the Playhouse Theatre, and use the money from the sale, to build a new performing arts centre downtown.

So I say the Pine Valley Golfers are getting screwed while the Golf and Curling Club, Tennis Club, Ball Clubs, Horseshoe Clubs, and Performing Arts Centre are getting relocated.

The City should back away from this idea, and stay with their vote and plan of 2010 to leave the course where it is. Lets quit changing the plan every couple of years whenever someone makes them an offer.

I agree with dow. It’s probably the worst of all the pitch and putts. There are far better options out there. If it goes, I won’t miss it.

Palopu – The airport was part of where the PGGCC golf course is was it not? Was there not a covenant also on the Pine Valley?

It does not matter in this city anyways, as the OCP is a guideline only, according to the city, to alter at their whim….. Is the OCP not what the Haldi people are fighting? Might as well throw the OCP out the window.

A developer in this city once told me that if land use was left to the citizens of this city there would be no progress. Guess us taxpayers have no say in anything except through the courts. Sad.

So why does the city keep giving money to PGGCC when it is suppose to be membership driven?