That little patch of dirt is the economic engine of the downtown core. With the new lawsuit filed this week and all the other ones still to be heard there are a multitude of lawyers employed. Way more economic activity than a trinket and bead business or a mailbox store creates. Gus mentioned that the Niner’s Diner/Tony Roma building was sold and will be turned into office space…law offices with ring side seats is my guess.

This has also become the George Street entertainment district. Who needs a PAC with little make believe plays when you can see live performances at the courthouse with all the twists and turns of a daytime soap opera, the he said/she said, fast friends and business partners becoming mortal enemies and of course money money money.

The working title of this little operetta “As The Wick Burns Down” will likely have to be changed as construction starts:D

Our downtown is good enough for a small city of 70,000… as good if not better than most other cities of same size. We like to sell ourselves as the ‘northern capital’ and think we need a better downtown to justify that I guess?

Facts are we can not have underground parking downtown in the George area due to the water table, so its availability is limited for development. Also we have major industrial polluters right across the river in a bowl area, so residential development is suspect. We do have good commercial development as is, although missing the forest industry doesn’t help.

What PG really needs is an entertainment district somewhere in the city that is safe and has vibrancy for locals and visitors alike. Lacking this gives the impression we are a city with little to no life… problem is the 20-40 year old cohort has declined in half in recent years. A chicken before the egg sort of problem.

Agreed Ben. I’ve said for years there’s no such thing as downtown revitalization! This is especially true when as you stated the city approves fringe centers like Westgate.

BTW What’s the scoop on the development on the property by Happy Trails RV?

“Long ago someone decided that we were going to follow the path of other cities who simply moved their downtown to the edge of the city and it spite of seeing the pitfalls of doing this, we followed them down the same road. We have no one to blame but ourselves”

I would agree completely Ben. The destruction of the downtown core has either been through deliberate action or the result of gross incompetence. Look at some of the examples:

– CN Centre built beside a residential neighbourhood well outside of the downtown core
– The Aquatic Centre built beside the CN Centre
– The Casino being moved out of the downtown core
– The continued desire to expand commercial development between 16/97 and Peden Hill
– Development of the new RCMP station on a parcel of land that could have been used for more strategic purposes in developing the downtown core
– Little to no attempt to do anything of significance to beautify the downtown area or make it a place where people want to go. A downtown park anyone? Pedestrian friendly areas? Zoning changes that would encourage development in the downtown?

All one has to do is travel to the hundreds of cities across this country who celebrate their downtown cores and make very deliberate attempts to make them places where people want to go, to see what needs to be done. The examples are plenty, all the way from tiny villages to large urban centres. This isn’t an insurmountable challenge, but it would require the city to develop a plan and to follow it through. Much like the OCP though, this seems to be something that the city simply can’t do. They are too busy thinking day to day, week to week or month to month and not what would be vest for the city 3, 5, 10 or 20 years out. In short, they have NO vision whatsoever. Their plans for the Pine Valley lands proves it.

To be blunt, the city of PG couldn’t care less about improving the downtown core. IMHO, that means that the city of PG couldn’t care less about improving the city. To be blunt, the wrong people are in charge of leading the city.

I, will also be blunt. Downtown PG is ugly, it smells bad, and it is full of “street people” that don’t have a dime to spend. Personally, I would never locate my business in downtown PG. Look at all the money we spent fixing up 3rd avenue, and what has it attracted ? More “street people.

I have been in PG for over 30 years. From day one I have heard about downtown revitilization. We have funneled millions of wasted dollars to this and its time to stop… downtown has been dead for 20 years. We are NOT big enough to support a new downtown. Its time to stop wasting our money on this dead horse.

“They have had to resort to trying to peddle the Pine Valley Golf course to free up some money.” Yes. And bringing back downtown pay parking isn’t just done with the stroke of a pen: It’s going to cost a million and half dollars, at least! Where will the money come from? Sell the Pine Valley Golf course! Easy, isn’t it? Even a child could do it!

Take alittle walk by the Plaza 400. There is a nice little statue of a gear I believe with a commitment to downtown revitalization with a bunch of people’s names on it. This little gear has a date on it of around 1985. So 28 years the downtown has been trying to improve. So this isn’t going change anytime soon. Maybe OP250 could go down there and take a picture of it for us!

P Val is right. They have been wasting our tax dollars on downtown revitilization for years. I would like to know just how much money has been spent INCLUDING all the tax breaks that are handed out. Every year my taxes go up and yet in downtown they get their taxes waived. If I put up an awning can I get a discount on my taxes?

It’s time for the funding to end but it won’t until the public finds out just how much tax dollars have been wasted.

Why would city hall ever believe the downtown core would be revitalized? A fine example of a white elephant is Victoriaville in the city of Thunder Bay. Roads were closed, buildings demolished, and a ton of taxpayer money invested. What has it resulted in, closed specialty shops from a lack of customers.
People want no pay parking and the ability to have access to different big box retailers such as the case with Westgate.
Quit trying to turn back the clock. Downtown cores die and it is all called evolution.

I’m trying to imagine Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Walmart, Costco, and Superstore and their parking lots in the downtown core.

Nope, can’t do it.

The downtown has been dead for at least 20 years. Let it rest in peace.

Eagleone wrote: “Facts are we can not have underground parking downtown in the George area due to the water table”

Let us wait and see what they do with the foundation of the new Wooden Building going up across from Plaza 400.

There are public garages below the flood level of the Fraser in New West with notices of closure when the water rises in them. Put nothing down there that water can affect, accept the fact that the spaces cannot be used for part of the year, and you got underground parking for most of the year.

We do not have to go to the lenght they went in Cologne to put an entire concert hall underneath the flood level of the Rhine river. Buikld a double hull of sorts, waterproof it with vinyl similar to a pool liner, put in some pumps, and you are in business.

“I’m trying to imagine Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Walmart, Costco, and Superstore and their parking lots in the downtown core.”

Poor imagination …. LOL….

Along with that, try imagining buying up the totally underdeveloped property east of the Queensway.

How did I know that you would be along shortly after my last comment, gus… I must be psychic! :-)

When I read this article I sensed a different tone than any other that Ben has written about downtown (in)activities.

I read a sense of resignation, a sense of getting tired of all the public hyperbole by many of the players who we have put in place to develop a city infrastructure we can be proud of.

The citizens of this city are wonderful with a spirit that keeps many here to fight for another day. But one can only wait for so long if one also wants a community with a visible heart. The people we have in charge now and have had in charge for the last two decades have been ruining our city infrastructure by letting it fall apart and by not following the vision they have laid down in the official community plan …… let us call it by its full name rather than OCP, to remind us what the words are and then hopefully we understand what it means.

NMG has laid it all out very well. Why do I think NMG is able to do that so well? Because he comes from here. This is where his “home” is. This is what he has left to go to a place he feels will provide him and his family more opportunity. In so doing, he is experiencing other places and he can compare them to PG. As a result he is finding out first hand what we could be and is wondering what is preventing us from going where others have been going.

When people write such things as:

1.Our downtown is good enough for a small city of 70,000

2.I’ve said for years there’s no such thing as downtown revitalization

3.Downtown PG is ugly, it smells bad, and it is full of “street people” that don’t have a dime to spend.

4.We are NOT big enough to support a new downtown. Its time to stop wasting our money on this dead horse.

5.So 28 years the downtown has been trying to improve. So this isn’t going change anytime soon.

6.It’s time for the funding to end but it won’t until the public finds out just how much tax dollars have been wasted.

7.Quit trying to turn back the clock. Downtown cores die and it is all called evolution.

8.I’m trying to imagine Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Walmart, Costco, and Superstore and their parking lots in the downtown core.

It shows they do not understand. When we have such people dominate the community, it is a difficult thing to fight.

Unlike some of the small cities, like Nelson, which do not have these grandiose ideas of growing at 4% per year, but instead focus on a “sustainable” city, PG is focused on growth ….. but, we all know that we have a static population over the past 20 years. THERE is one of the major factors in downtown not developing further and in infrastructure not getting fixed. We have one vision of having all the bells and whistles of a larger city, without having a larger city. We do not see the fact that it is the entire city which is failing. Virtually every move we make, we put another nail in the coffin.

Read NMG, examples …… How can those people who are responsible for such promotions be so stupid!!!

If anyone wants to see a depressed area, go to donwtown Bellingham for a change. The ravages of time show there while the city is booming with all the shopping the Canucks do in the malls of the outlying area.

I see none of the pessimism there though that I see in PG. Instead, the downtown is starting to come alive again. The green spaces are beautiful and plenty. They are proud of their University and community college. The historic area, Fairhaven, is thriving with residential developments, shops, restaurants, and plenty of special activities including a wonderful enclosed, glazed public market building. You know, the type that was talked about in PG some 15 years ago ……

So, do not dwell on the unsuccessful downtown renewals, look at the successful ones and make some efforts to learn WHY they are successful and WHY others are not.

Forget twoinning with CHINA. That gets us nowhere fast. TWIN with a city that has successfully rejuvenated their downtown AND has successfully stopped SPRAWL …. it is a 20 to 30 year program.

It has taken us 20 or 30 yers to kill the city by simply sitting back and following the stupid money. Now, let’s deal with SMART money and developers for a change.

gus: “It shows they do not understand. When we have such people dominate the community, it is a difficult thing to fight.”

Perception is hard to change. People have been promised lots of things by the decision makers of this community for many years with respect to the downtown. And you wonder why people are pessimistic?

Time to move to Nelson, eh gus? :-)

But guy’s….Christy said a 10 storey, er, 6 storey, wood building will revitalize downtown Prince George. Don’t you believe her ?

censored, I believe Inland Kenworth is relocating to the property beside Happy Trails RV.

Actually there is a more likely candidate.

Nelson is far too remote and too small for my for my liking. I can take one, but not both.

I thought I was getting larger and remote, when I moved to PG. It was great for 10 years. Okay for the next 10 years, but the last 20 have been the chits.

The spirit and the fun has gone out of this community.

Middle finger … the things you have to say when you want to be positive about a project … especially when one is a politician.

It is the local yokels at Council that wanted an ingestion of senior government money into downtown. They forgot about the court house and plaza 400 and cannot see that those have not helped one bit for private money to come in.

The province need to stick to pushing the economy of the Cariboo and other similar remote regions. Mining and forestry do not cut it anymore. They will still be needed, but they do not create the jobs they once did while they still create the money sucked away by services located in the lower mainland.

My real state agent in Prince George gave me this advice many years ego:
look for properties west of highway 97 in PG. Forget about east of HW 97 …

The PG downtown area is full of zombie like characters even chasing cars for illegal business. It is too depressing to visit the area. Despite the nice park and being surrendered by rivers. What can be done to improve it:

1- Move the rusty and ugly train station to the other side of river or near airport … and transform it into a river promenade area. We are in the 21th century and trains don’t need water to operate anymore.

2- Find out why it is the gathering place for prostitutes and addicts (is it because of hospital or business opportunity from HW16) and move the source of attraction to other side of river. E.g. HW16 detour to HW97 around airport region.

3- Bring the university to downtown hospital area and move hospital to its place at the top of the hill. Many students have asked for it.

…

Quite a few posters point their fingers at City Council for the lack of downtown revitalization, despite lucrative tax breaks for businesses who would choose to locate and open in the downtown area.

It is time we asked ourselves; what is the reason behind retail businesses closing, and not reopening in downtown Prince George?

I would suggest that “big box stores” are a significant contributor to the closing of many smaller retail businesses in our downtown area. When Wal-Mart, Costco and Superstores open in cities, smaller retail outlets cannot compete and close, leaving a net reduction of retail jobs in those cities.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/study-proves-walmart-super-stores-kill-local-small-businesses-article-1.140129

You may want to make some popcorn, sit back, and watch “Wal-Mart Nation” while you are at it.

People1st: “I would suggest that “big box stores” are a significant contributor to the closing of many smaller retail businesses in our downtown area. When Wal-Mart, Costco and Superstores open in cities, smaller retail outlets cannot compete and close, leaving a net reduction of retail jobs in those cities.”

Welcome to the free market and competition. For all the complaints about big box stores, there are sure huge numbers of people that shop there. Who would have thunk it… people like to pay less for stuff.

JB states; “Welcome to the free market and competition.” … “people like to pay less for stuff.”

Unfortunately that free market, competition, and lower prices, dictate the use of slave labour which propagates poverty, human suffering, and death in Bangladeshi garment factories used by these “big box stores”.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2012/11/28/walmart_disney_clothes_found_in_bangladesh_fire.html

Hard to defend and celebrate something like this… is it not JB? Wal-Mart, et al, lowest prices is the law come at the cost of substantial and profound human suffering. But it’s money and profit over people every time… right JB?

Univ says tear down the train station and have river front park, do you suggest removing the rail yard as well? Maybe relocate that out to the airport as well? Then relocate the hospital somewhere up the hill because some students would prefer that and put the university where the hospital once was? Can you even begin to imagine the cost of these crazy ideas not to mention the sheer logistics of what you suggest? Container traffic in the yard combined with the coal trains that roll through there is only going to increase. I know people that work there and they tell me they expect a huge increase of traffic and are planning on adding tracks to accomadate. Impossible to reloacte all that infrastructure.

“But it’s money and profit over people every time… right JB?”

You say that as if it’s a bad thing. So what’s your solution, People? Everything (supply, demand, pricing) controlled by the Government? That’s been done too with less than desirable results.

Wal-Mart has changed every town it moves into even towns that had vibrant city cores. Wal-Mart moves to the outskirts for cheaper land and taxes, more big boxes follow and then malls for the smaller stores.

Myself I love the downtown and it seems since the City set up the Downtown Business Association the downtown has gone downhill faster.

Regarding parking I find it funny that people can’t walk a block when they are downtown but they will walk farther to shop in a mall. First they have to cross the large parking lots, then they walk from one end to another in the mall.

I’d love for the downtown to be revitalized. I think under the right city leadership, the downtown has great potential but as it is right now we avoid it.

Last week we went downtown just to wander around and look at some of the shops and stores because it was a nice day out. I hadn’t even fully parked yet before someone was knocking on my door asking me for change. We walk around for roughly an hour and in that time we were hit up for change 5-6 times, saw several people walking around openly smoking weed, a couple of busted pipes and a lovely used needle with blood in it. Oh can’t forget to mention the used condoms and wrappers in the gutter.

I like the downtown and we enjoy going to things like the Farmers Market and little shops on George St, 3rd Ave and places like Homework and the Northern but as a father of a young child, why would I subject them to that? I have in the past, been shoved and spit at in front of my child simply because I refused to give spare change to someone.

As an idea to improve downtown, I think number one should be a more visible police presence. would also like to see perhaps a longer one way on 3rd Ave. Have it one way from Victoria to the Courthouse. Narrow the driving part of the road, widen the sidewalks and make it more walking friendly. I’d also really enjoy seeing a large green space in that area across from the Ramada with benches, a place to set up for live music and things like that. I know there is no money in all of that but one can wish.

A couple of years ago (after the old hotel was torn down on George Street) somebody posted a link here for downloading a drawing. This drawing featured a wonderful circular plaza occupying the area consisting of the hotel lot and the parking lot behind it. Fronting on the new plaza were the Ramada hotel, the Twisted Cork and so forth! Apparently it was presented to the City and predictably ignored.

A plaza, a focal point, a starting point for revitalization…well, you can lead a horse to the water but you can’t make it drink!

BTW: JB, people are more important than profits, money and stuff!

Of course you hypocrites telling JB that people are more important than profit have never shopped at Walmart yourselves, right…?

“Apparently it was presented to the City and predictably ignored.”

I am sorry, but I ignored it as well. We need some serious work on the downtown. An example of some serious work was done with the “smart growth on the ground group”.

As with Centrum back in the 1960’s, it ain’t goin’ nowhere fast. One more total waste of time and money.

I am amazed at the frequency some people get hit up for change, etc. in PG. I see much more of that between Georgia and Robson in downtown Vancouver where there is a bit more money walking and driving than there is here.

interceptor: “Of course you hypocrites telling JB that people are more important than profit have never shopped at Walmart yourselves, right…?”

Ding ding ding… we have a winner!

gus: “I am amazed at the frequency some people get hit up for change, etc. in PG.”

And you know it’s not going to food.

interceptor states; “Of course you “hypocrites” telling JB that people are more important than profit have never shopped at Wal-Mart yourselves right..?”

Why even answer your question when you assume we have by call us hypocrites?

Our quest for knowledge, facts and truths is an ongoing, evolving process. Some of us probably have shopped at Wal-Mart since it opened. However, it is when we become aware…as we learned and acquired knowledge, facts and truths, such as; how Wal-Mart treats their workers, and how they condone slave labour to keep their merchandise prices low, that some of us have stopped shopping there.

Having researched and commented on the oil industry, I have recently learned, and became aware, of the fact that Husky Oil is 90% foreign owned! Will that newly acquire knowledge change my, or anyone else’s, spending habits at the local Husky gas stations? Who knows, but just because I gassed up there before I knew it was 90% foreign owned does not make me a hypocrite!

Having said all this… care to debate the fact that Wal-Mart, and big box stores, kill local business?… or would you rather debate Wal-Mart, and their big box store competitor’s, use of slave labour to keep the costs of merchandise they sell low?

“I am amazed at the frequency some people get hit up for change, etc. in PG.”

The next sentence was: “I see much more of that between Georgia and Robson in downtown Vancouve”

I guess I should have continued to say I am not one of those who sees that in PG. In fact, I can truthfully say I have gotten hit up much more in parking lots in suburban PG shopping centres …. always came with a story of how they are stuck in PG and need some money for gas … lost their wallet and so on.

“If history is any indication, nothing could be further from the truth. Chicago’s struggling West Side learned the hard way that Walmart’s stores destroy more retail jobs than they create.

In 2006, the big-box retailer promised to bring jobs to the cash-strapped community. But according to a landmark study by Loyola University, the company’s rhetoric didn’t match reality: Within two years of Walmart’s opening its doors, 82 local stores went out of business.

Chicago’s cautionary tale isn’t isolated. Countless communities, and peer-reviewed surveys across the country, all reach the same conclusion: When Walmart moves in, small businesses, and jobs, move out; Main St. dies.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/study-proves-walmart-super-stores-kill-local-small-businesses-article-1.140129#ixzz2Vb7m0dPV

So, how many downtown retail business closures are directly attributed to Wal-Mart, and other big box stores, arrival? Nothing like past PG Mayors and Councils welcoming these big boys on the block in to PG. Too bad our local businesses do not have the global reach these big boys have to take advantage of poverty stricken third world countries manufacturing low priced merchandise dirt cheap. Local businesses just can’t compete with that!

Our city core has changed alright, and I think we know some of the reasons why. We need a Mayor and Council that are willing to tax these big boys hard, and provide all the tax incentives needed for small local businesses to survive and level the playing field.

“taxing the big boys hard ,etc. to level the playing field ” sounds like socialism to me…if the big boys are not located in pg, I bet many pg shoppers will go where they are located.

I’ve been to Fort Smith Arkansas where Walmart sucked the life out of its downtown. All you see there is Hotels, Pawn shops, restaurants, for rent signs and Bail bond advertising. The only thing that is different between PG and Fort Smith is PG doesn’t have the bail bond adverts. This is true for many US towns. Big box on outskirts, downtown dead or dying a slow miserable death. 25 years from now we will be having the same conversation.

Folks….you only have to look as far as Quesnel. Wal-Mart opens, mall across the hi-way empties.

I agree NoWay, Prince George’s downtown core is dying like Fort Smith Arkansas, and many other communities across North America. Where ever Wal-Mart goes it doesn’t just become a part of a city’s retail community, it takes over and becomes that city’s retail community.

“If Wal-Mart were a country, its revenues would make it on par with the GDP of the 25th largest economy in the world by, surpassing 157 smaller countries.”

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/25-corporations-bigger-tan-countries-2011-6?op=1#ixzz2VbbyIctH

bc2412… how would / could small retail businesses in Prince George compete with a retail corporation that big???

Too bad we did not take the same approach as New York City which forbid Wal-Mart entry into their city retail market. Maybe protectionism is better socialism? I wish our PG Mayors and Councils of the time had the same concerns as NY City’s.

Another Ben Meisner shot at city council at the expense of downtown.

Nothing positive will happen until people start acting themselves. Quit the gripping. Get off the couch and do be a part of the solution.

So tell me tburbee, what exactly have you been doing to turn downtown around?

Perhaps you do not mind downtown being the way it is?

In case you have been doing something, has it worked, in your opinion? I know in my opinion it has not because, in my humble opinion, it continues to get worse.

For anyone who thinks Meisner is wrong, and for those who think downtown should not be a concern or cannot be turned around, please read the linked article from 25 years ago and relate it to PG and the things we DO NOT DO here, which I believe to be a major reason in our lack of success, other than our flat (to put it kindly) population growth curve.

http://www.ecdevjournal.com/index.php?Itemid=30&id=76&option=com_content&task=view

A few sample points for those who do not like to link to another site.

1.Downtown Revitalization is a bit of a misnomer. Perhaps it would be better called Downtown Economic Redevelopment.

2.Municipal Economic Development Offices deal primarily with industrial/commercial development or recruitment, not Downtown Economic Development. It was attempted by IPG and failed since they did not have to capacity and authority.

3.Responsibility for Downtown Development is in the hands of the B.I.A. The PG BIA has not been able to do this because they do not have the capacity.

4.It is so very important to preserve the character and individuality of a community. This really needs to be at the forefront during strategic planning. Where is the relation with MyPG and the BIA?

5.Communities are judged by the viability for their cores. Many people on this site do not understand that simple fact. Developers are attracted to municipalities that have healthy downtowns which are viewed as the heart of communities.

6.In striving for downtown redevelopment, municipalities and B.I.A.’s must co-operate (the city and our BIA do not co-operate) in the provision of adequate and convenient roadways, public transportation and the provision of parking

7.The B.I.A. should not be viewed as a special interest body. It is a board of the municipality and by virtue of this must enjoy a close working relationship with the municipality as it carries out its improvements on public property.

8.During this time of new development and business recruitment, physical improvements are probably on-going. B.I.A.’s sometimes fall into the mistaken impression that once these physical improvements are completed the task of revitalization is over.