Good!!!

Let’s see what everyone is made of – Feds, Province and First Nations.

Another Clayquot?

oops …. Clayoquot ..

Agreed.

Oka BC

Yinka Dene Alliance you have my full support. Thank you for taking this stand.

Nice thought, but…

According to the The Supreme Court of Canada, First Nations must be consulted, which is happening through the JRP, however they do not have the right to veto the project.

The YD alliance specifically has decided they don’t want to participate in the JRP, however that still doesn’t give them any special rights.

I’m not sure if the folks out West really understand how fragile the support for the Federal Government currently is.

They will never win a seat in Quebec, they haven’t made allot of friends in Atlantic Canada lately by all but insisting that they should just move to Alberta to find work, the Senate and election scandals have lost them some of their grassroots support in Ontario and there is more and more evidence of infighting in the party and Harper losing some of that control that he used so effectively in years past. Heck, even every “scandal” they try and raise about Trudeau is backfiring in their face.

They are desperate and the LAST thing they need politically, is to ram through a project that could alienate one of their western power bases and unite FN groups across the entire country. This isn’t even getting into the international optics, the concerns about getting too close to China, nor the revolt that would happen from within the party itself if they start to escalate this in the face of opposing public opinion.

IMHO, Harper has to decide if he wants the pipeline or his job as PM because that’s what it comes down to IMHO . . .

Voters are a funny bunch. People thought the Liberals support was fragile before the last Provincial election and look what happened.

If the project goes ahead, and as soon as people realize this pipeline is not the end of the world as many have portrayed it, they will move onto other issues.

“If the project goes ahead, and as soon as people realize this pipeline is not the end of the world as many have portrayed it, they will move onto other issues.”

Interesting point of view commonly made. However, those who make it almost consistently make the mistake that it works both ways.

Thus, if the project does not go ahead, and as soon as people realize that not having this pipeline is not the end of the world as many have portrayed it, they will move onto other issues.

“In a functioning democracy like Canada”

Ummm, wasn’t it very recently confirmed that electoral fraud did indeed take place in the 2011 election?

“Their decisions should be based on the rule of law and input from citizens, not political intimidation by screaming mobs.”

What the rule of law is, depends on who interprets it. We do not live in a codified law nation, other than Quebec. We live in a law of equity, common law, and natural law nation.

If one does not understand that it does not matter what the ruling of the JRP may be in the future. This work is proposed to go on right now. Someone may have given them a permit to do so. Seems that the FN were not “consulted” and allowed to participate in that.

Anybody with any sense would understand that. In fact, that should be a condition of such hearings and the panel should have the authority to be involved with any preliminary work that may be needed to provide data for the hearings. Of course even that would open the doors far too widely and someone would have to make a judgment of what is data collection and what is pre-work.

NMG …… gee …. I thought electoral fraud was an indicator of a functioning democracy …. LOL

Luckily this thread is only open for 24 hours, otherwise it would easily go to 100+ posts …

If this thread did go on to 100+ posts Gus, 25+ of them would be yours I’m sure…

This is unfortunate, because your multiposts aren’t nearly as interesting as you probably think they are.

Sometimes you can only be pushed so much, and then it’s time to push back even if it’s your last act. I can understand First Nations’ frustration. They continually get lied to and paid lip service to and then get run over by other people’s prerogatives (usually at the hands of non-first nations peoples.) Defacto, they’re a conquered people and I don’t hold out much hope for their continued survival long-term in this society. Make no mistake though, if they decide to oppose with force, they will be right in doing so. Anyone of conscience, would stand beside them, rather than sit silently by and watch them be brutally silenced once again. I guess time will tell if there are any men of conscience left in this country.

gus: “Seems that the FN were not “consulted” and allowed to participate in that.”

The YD Alliance were invited to be a part of the JRP, but they chose not to. Too bad.

gus: “Anybody with any sense would understand that.”

Interesting point of view. But as you say, it goes both ways. Anyone with any sense would consider the Supreme Court of Canada ruling before making such declarations.

Too bad that they don’t own 100% of the territory that the chosen route would have to traverse.

Funny how people suddenly support native insurrection when it meets their needs. What happened to the rule of law?

y’all are about to get a harsh lesson in economics and your place in the world. Neither the indians nor any of you trolls are gamechangers. Best learn that. go ahead and “reist” see where it gets you. My guess is the opposition will evaporate like Jumbo Resort protesters or NDP supporters after an election. A few threats maybe, then its back to mom’s basement to tend the crop.

Just because some of the visible opposition is dominating the public eye, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a lot of support to have the pipe line go ahead. The alternative is our railways and highways to move our resources. This is not a better alternative. All the railways and roads run right beside our beautiful rivers.

So, I think a pipeline is a better option, a safer option and we would have more control managing a pipeline.

At the end of the day, Canada is a resource based economy. We need to share (sell) our resources to those who need or want them. So, one way or another, they will be transported through our beautiful country.

If nobody sells anything, nobody makes any money, nobody works, nobody pays any taxes and nobody funds all of the people and programs who are the beneficiaries of this cash. It’s the only thing that makes this world go around.

“Anyone with any sense would consider the Supreme Court of Canada ruling before making such declarations.”

So, the question then is have YOU considered at least some of the many rulings? I am not a lawyer, but I have read the DELGAMUUKW v. BRITISH COLUMBIA decision regarding Aboriginal Title and have quickly put some key words into the February 2000 information and research of the 1997 decision prepared by of Mary Hurley of the Law and Government Division of the Library of Parliament. So I offer that as proof that I have given the matter of what Aboriginal Title means some studied consideration over the last 15 or so years since the decision, but also more recently in light of the pipeline debate.

In my opinion one of the key issues is the justification test for infringements of Aboriginal title since that may happen and appears to have happened with the test drilling, roads leading into that area, all without consultation. As I wrote, I am addressing that directly, not the decision of whether the pipeline is given approval. And I would think that is what the YDA are referring to and are acting on. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

As it states:
“ The nature of the Crown’s fiduciary duty toward Aboriginal peoples depends …. on the legal and factual context at issue. While that duty may sometimes demand that Aboriginal interests be given priority, in other contexts it may involve further questions such as whether the infringement is minimal, whether fair compensation is available, and whether the Aboriginal group has been consulted. The degree of scrutiny of infringing measures required by the fiduciary duty will also vary depending on the nature of the Aboriginal right at issue.”

Thus, the question of whether an infringing measure is related to such objectives will require assessment on a case by case basis. And THAT, of course requires consultation, permitting processes which address that issue, etc.

It sounds to me that such has not happened.

“What happened to the rule of law?”

EXACTLY!!! Where is the legal justification to give the contractors a so called “temporary” permit to insert a road install some drilling pads and start drilling.

Can someone provide some background of what happened here, what the details of the work are, whether there has been “consultation” which may mean they have been sent a copy of the permit via Canada SnailMail?

Again, all we know is that so far notice has been given that the contractors are considered as participating in an illegal act.

Maybe we should invoke a temporary sharia law just for this pipeline. Heads would roll for that. Literally.

gus: “Can someone provide some background of what happened here, what the details of the work are, whether there has been “consultation”

It’s hard to consult with someone who doesn’t want to be consulted with or take part in the process.

Do not trespass on our land but keep sending money of which grows on trees.

It looks like the powers that be do not understand the word “no” coming from 70% or more of British Columbians. This is one issue that could bring all people of all colours together to fight against a project that just has too many risks for alot of people. Someday we will realize that money cannot be eaten.

Dirtcheap. Where did you come up with the 70% from? Is it from the same pollsters that predicted an NDP landslide victory in the last election?

“The alternative is our railways and highways to move our resources. This is not a better alternative. All the railways and roads run right beside our beautiful rivers.”

Not so. The oil (bitumen) can be piped to Eastern Canada using mostly existing pipelines (according to the industry). Presently the crude oil for Eastern Canada consumption is imported from Venezuela. At least one east coast province has already expressed its eagerness to welcome the jobs that would result from that!

There is no need to lay the pipeline across the treacherous and unstable land, right next to our beautiful rivers, creeks and lakes where they are planning to put it.

There is also both a northern and a southern option.

Treacherous and unstable land. That’s hilarious. All of a sudden BC is some diamond perched on an abyss. We had better dig up those current pipelines that criss cross this unstable land.

It’s hard to consult with someone who doesn’t want to be consulted with or take part in the process.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No means No…it’s hard to call anything consulting when you cannot be heard. ;-)

One spill into the Stuart River will end the lifestyle we have PG for a very long time. Sponge baths and bottled water trucked in from? F’ off Enbridge!

If anyone has ever watched or been to any one of these JRP meetings it is quite clear there is not alot of listening going on. The panel is just going through the motions trying to make it look like they really care,but the problem is their horrendus track record shows the exact opposite.

“The YD Alliance were invited to be a part of the JRP, but they chose not to. Too bad” .. I don’t know what the JRP has to do with consulting on pre-approval preparations for the pipeline? To me that just, once again, shows the arrogance of a company like Enbridge thinking this is a done deal, and the hell with anyones wishes.

How do you spell redneck? G-A-M-B-L-O-R. Y’all? What part of Canada is that dialect from?

LOL….and what the heck is “reist” ?

Northern Gateway is a project for losers. The tarsands are barely economically viable, Alberta is in the hole despite exporting 2.5 million barrels a day.

The only reason anyone is supporting Northern Gateway is the $130 million Enbridge slush fund that is being spread around liberally to conservatives. If NG doesn’t go ahead, the whole spiral of graft will unravel, Harper and his cronies with it. That is why you see the desperate hail-mary efforts of Joe Oliver.

LNG really is the only game in town that makes sense. That is why there are 15 different LNG proposed projects at the moment. Northern Gateway is a distraction for idiots.

Shoot, shovel and shut up. Good for mad cows, good for Northern Gateway.

“It looks like the powers that be do not understand the word “no” coming from 70% or more of British Columbians.”

Are these the same pollsters that were all but declaring the NDP as the next government?

I missed oldcoots post. lol.

LNG is a losing prop. Many countries across the planet have LNG in the works or planned. Seabed methane hydrate is the future for carbon fuels. Mark my words.
metalman.

hey johnnybelt its a little bit more than about who voted for who at stake here because when one of those tankers screw up we all are going to pay dearly.why don’t we question that grade 2 pipe is used through out the whole project no cheapening out on safety valves also and besides fyi an independent economic forecast has the liberals putting us in debt in 2 years at the tune of 3 billion keep on working you ignorant ol coot you obviously voted for them

70% against NGP? I call bc big time. If these sandal shod greenies asked the same people if they were interested in promoting economic growth for the North would you get the same reponse? I think not. The greatest potential economic boom ever for the YD bunch would be the NGP but the Chief Louies of this area would lose control in a minute. Just picture 100’s if not thousands of first nations people learning trades, getting real income and getting off the welfare titty…The same people that bash Enbridge on here bash used to bash first nations for being on the public trough, now heres a chance for them and you’re against that too? And what spill in the Stuart river…all you bashers on here on the guaranteed government payroll too? What about the rest of the people that actually have to work for a living?

After this we will start working to get tanker traffic banned off our east coast.

yes, 15 full time jobs permanent jobs after the pipeline is completed is going to change the aboriginals forever…give me a break. Do your research, the jobs and economic benefits to BC are minimal at best.

If there was a spill on the Stuart river that would be a big problem Contractor. A spill anywhere along the pipline route would be a problem but the Stuart would be extremely bad. With Enbridge’s track record it isn’t a matter of if it is a matter of when! How long did they keep pumping tarsands bitumen into the Kalamzoo river Contractor? Fresh water is more valuable than gold. This is a bad idea, bad route by an incompetent company.

Not on traditional land, well, I say we have been here a hundred years, and I say its our traditional land. Lets go have a civil war and decide who’s land it is.

So, if Canada has lets say 30 million motor vehicles and 10% of them leak one litre of engine oil or transmission oil every month. that is equal to 36 million litres of oil dripping on our driveways, parking lots and highways, which all finds its way into our water systems.

The kalamazoo oil spill was a large spill, which could have been a lot smaller if the pumps had been shut off. that oil spill was about 4 million litres, after what 40 years of operation, equalling less than 100,000 litres a year.

” We had better dig up those current pipelines that criss cross this unstable land.”

Good idea! However, they have been digging up regularly spots where leaks needed to be fixed – almost weekly, it appears! This is going on when pipelines supposedly never leak!

“So, if Canada has lets say 30 million motor vehicles and 10% of them leak one litre of engine oil or transmission oil every month. that is equal to 36 million litres of oil dripping on our driveways, parking lots and highways, which all finds its way into our water systems”

Exactly! Now just imagine if there were 40 million vehicles and they all leaked 2 litres a month! Yeah I know, now I’ve just gone and made the original argument silly . . .

Remember he spoke …… “the solution to pollution is dilution” …. that is an age old phrase which we actually still adhere to in dealing with pollution although very few will admit it.

There is a difference between standing in a 20 car unventilated parking garage while they all have their engines running and standing on a surface parking lot with 20 cars idling with a 5kph breeze blowing.

Or, put another way, 36 million litres of oil spread evenly over the surface of urban Canada and the same amount being spilled into the Don River in Toronto.

There are far too many people who do not even understand the basics of pollution.

or, put in another way … pee in the bath, pee in the pool, pee in the lake, pee in the ocean. ;-)

“Lets go have a civil war and decide who’s land it is.”

Been there done that. As a result we have laws which are called treaties. Treaties are between nations.

So, it would not be a civil war, it would be a war against many other nations.

At the obvious end to that Canada would be tried in the world court for genocide, which should have been done in the first place.

JB wrote: “It’s hard to consult with someone who doesn’t want to be consulted with or take part in the process.”

That was not an answer to my question. That was a comment. Some would not know the difference.

Were they consulted with? A simple yes or no would do plus some supporting evidence that the answer is correct.

BTW, that is the way it normally works.

Harbinger: “After this we will start working to get tanker traffic banned off our east coast.”

As I understand it, it is not about tanker traffic, it is about super tanker traffic. There are at least 4 refineries on the coast of Washington. They are all on complex coastal waterways. They are all served by tankers. Supertankers are prohibited. Any that do come to the state’s coast have to offload their oil at Port Angeles and transfer it to smaller tankers.

gus: “That was not an answer to my question. That was a comment. Some would not know the difference.”

Some would also understand that I have little concern about what other posters think about my posts.

He Spoke! The Kalamzoo was preventable. Enbridge knew that the pipe needed maintenance 5 years before it burst. We can’t have a neglected pipe like that over our drinking water.