I am wondering if anyone has any hard information about what the market for townhouses is in the CBD of PG.

Have the ones on Victoria north of second sold yet?

Has anyone bought any land from the City yet for townhouses elsewhere in the downtown?

Same for condos. Commonwealth was going to build market housing condos on the site where six townhouses were originally going to be built. How is that demand going?

When is the hotel/condo project going to go ahead on Brunswick? Too late for the Winter Games market by now. When will the street closure take effect? When will the closed street property be purchased? Is there a deadline for that?

Any nibbles for city land adjacent to the WDIC building? Construction fence is up. BID should be ready to make an offer by now! ;-)

How is the land supposedly set aside for the PAC going? Has it been taken off the market or is it for sale?

Along the same lines, how is the Quesnel PAC doing? They should be starting construction by now.

http://ourmulticentre.com

Quesnel seems to have over $25million of the $30 million required to build its theatre/arena complex.

They have a nice page showing the contributions from the community businesses coming in. How’s our PAC doing with their community fundraising efforts?

All is quiet on the PG front. Anyone in charge now?

I’m not a lawyer, but if you keep granting extensions, then the “time is of the essence clause” doesn’t mean anything.

I’m guessing that Commonwealth is off the hook. As long as they say, “we are going to build”, they never have to build…

I say we buy the air space back for a dollar and continue with the buy high , sell low policy that seems to work for this city. Please someone grab the steering wheel.

Last week I saw them torching on a type of roofing material to the top of the concrete pad…looks like they don’t plan on doing anything for quite a while I suppose.

The property was bought by John Major from the City. It was then bought by Commonwealth Health from John Major. They took over the conditions of the development which the property has attached to it.

At any time when Commonwealth Health defaults on that condition, the City has the option to buy it for $1. It is an offer the City should take, If they do, they get back the property for $1 which they were much more for.

There is no question of buying high and selling low for this portion of the air rights.

And yes, Icicle, I am also not a lawyer, but I agree with you that the City has taken too long. The argument can be made mode ways though, and there is ample historic info that property downtown is not moving and that the City is not growing.

Now, if there was proven interest in the property and the City had a possibility to develop it as long as it was in their hands, that would give them good grounds to invoke the condition in their favour.

“Last week I saw them torching on a type of roofing material to the top of the concrete pad”

Hmmm. So the concrete was not sealed or the seal was broken and leaking water to the garage below it seems.

This once again begs for the question: “what does The Commonwealth Group” have on The City?” In any other municipality this type of business dealing would not be tolerated. Yet another example “Of Only in Prince George!”

I think that most of the free cash flow for Commonwealth is going to pay lawyers in the various lawsuits they have on the go and do not have the coin to erect a pup tent on the site.

That being said there is nothing in the covenant that said the construction of the townhouses would depend on market conditions.John Major had better lawyer up as he might be next for a visit from the process servers for not telling “developer” Dan there is no market for townhouses in the CBD of Prince George.

The city should wait and keep the loonie in their pocket until Sept 8th 2017 as even an undeveloped airspace should bring in a few dollars in taxes between now and then, especially given the recent improvements that have taken place(a few pails of tar:)

Demand for condos downtown reminds me of the demand for cargo planes to make a “tech” stop here. Both are pipe dreams. With tax hikes the way they are and snow removal being added to the utility bill, who in their right mind would want to live downtown. If I was planning to move here I wouldn’t buy in the city limits.

Don’t forget to pay your taxes! They are due this Friday.

“John Major had better lawyer up as he might be next for a visit from the process servers for not telling “developer” Dan there is no market for townhouses in the CBD of Prince George.”

Why would John Major need to say anything to Dan MacLaren? Dan’s a big boy with the ability to read. I’m sure there is a contract pertaining to the sale and I imagine that it is a fairly large in-depth one to boot.
When you are dealing with covenants, enforecability becomes an issue when they are constantly ignored. If you build in a subdivision that has a covenant that you have to build only 2 car garages and 75% of the neighbours built 1 car garages and the covenant agreement wasn’t enforced, it becomes a worthless document attached to title. As long as the city doesn’t push the issue with Commonwealth,it will become less of an issue for Commonwealth.

The part that really gets me is the tax credits etc. that flow to the parties before they actually do anything. Build it and get a tax break. If you don’t build it, no breaks.

I imagine that is a little of “robbing Peter to pay Paul” going on here.

Guess I should have put a “:)” on the end of the sentence :)

If the latest copy of the On The Move newsletter is any indication of what IPG is doing to sell the longer runway,refueling pad and logistics park you could be right NoWay;(

http://www.initiativespg.com/Documents/FINALJune2013OTM.pdf

I get 4 blank pdf pages…with the city preaching green you would think 1 would be enough.

So I have to pay my taxes and we are giving breaks of $137,000 dollars to companies that don’t even fulfill their committments to the city.

What do I have to promise for a little $137,000 gift from the taxpayers of Prince George?

Has anyone from Commonwealth said thankyou to any of you taxpayers out there? I’d thank you if I got one.

The delay on building the townhouses might fall on the lap of city hall. Perhaps someone blew the dust off a copy of the MyPG plan. Here is a direct quote from MyPG Easy Actions in the section entitled:
————————————–
Use communication and dialogue to strengthen support for downtown and for compact development
————————————–
“Begin and maintain a dialogue with and between developers,
regulators, and buyers to align perceptions with market and
cultural realities. Support this dialogue with applicable data
and analysis as needed”

Conversation might have went:

Dan it’s city hall calling, just wanted to let you know that we have looked at all the data and could not find any demand for townhouses in this area of town. Searched high and low for a buyer, i mean we really beat the bushes and that only produced a few drunks and druggies.

K…Thanks. Bye.

The original requirement demanded by the City can easily be seen as done under duress. As we know, there was no demand, for either on the ground or upper floor residential condos. It was a figment of the City’s imagination.

City hall seems to be operating squarely under the mandate of “it’s who you are and who you know” rather than what is right and best for the taxpayers and city. Perhaps the city staff will be just as
lenient when all the taxpayers decide to ‘miss the deadline’ for paying city taxes. Can you imagine how that would go over. Maybe it’s time to look into putting the city operations into trusteeship and perhaps hiring commonwealth to manage the city as they seem to do quite well, apparently getting away with all sorts of stuff.
just think, we could miss the deadline for paying back the municipal finance authority for borrowed money from the new palace on victoria street and all kinds of other money. we could then just borrow, borrow, borrow and never worry about paying back or following through on any obligations. what a world we live in.

There would be demand for condos in the downtown core if the city actually made it a priority to develop the area into a place that people want to live and frequent.

Instead, however, they are focused on what has been the status quo in PG for the last 25 years. They will influence the abandonment of the downtown core by approving large projects to take place anywhere but there and they will support residential sprawl, even though the city doesn’t have the population density to financially sustain it.

IMHO, the best thing that could happen would be for the city to NOT pay the dollar for the air space right now. They should wait until after the next election and then pay the dollar for it. At the very least, at that point you may have a group in place who could do something constructive with the asset at a future date instead of squandering it, which is almost certainly what would happen under the current group in City Hall given their track record.

It’s a sad day when you are relying on a Hail Mary to move the city forward!

You can’t force people to live downtown. Similiarly, if the City wants to be seen as ‘business friendly’, they can’t force business to locate in the relatively small downtown core.

Business has naturally located and developed to the west to match much of the population movement out that way. People for various reasons decided they wanted out of ‘the bowl’. You can’t fault the City for that.

The only crime as I see it is how much energy, time, and money we’ve put into ‘downtown revitalization’.

Downtown,
Do we not have a loitering bylaw in this city ?.Seems everytime I near George and 3rd the same crew of people are comfortably sitting on the planters enjoying their day while putting the run on touists and locals alike .I’ve got nothing against a guy down and out , but to encourage this kind of ” its ok hanging around ” bringing our town down attitude has to stop .

“You can’t force people to live downtown”

Of course you can’t. What you can do, however, is develop an area so that people want to live there. That extends to the downtown core.

====================================

“Similarly, if the City wants to be seen as ‘business friendly’, they can’t force business to locate in the relatively small downtown core”

Now that is nonsense. The city most certainly does have the ability to control development, especially if it requires zoning changes. At its most basic level, PG is a pushover and developments occur in PG that would never in a million years happen in other cities in Canada. IMHO, this is because PG is too small minded to join the ranks of modern communities who actually demand excellence in regards to how their city is developed. It has nothing to do with being “business friendly”.

====================================

“Business has naturally located and developed to the west to match much of the population movement out that way'”

“To the west”? You speak of it like it’s 40KM out, LOL! Are there really car lots and other retail developments slated for Beaverly? A new swimming pool perhaps? All of the major “new” development in PG over the past 20 years is literally a 5-10 minute drive from downtown. It’s far enough from the downtown core to not have a “draw” effect, but that’s about it. PG isn’t big enough to need major services at the peripheries of the city. It’s simply poor planning IMHO.

Askum, I agree, maybe we should all lure them away onto 2nd avenue by providing sofa’s with canopies.

Its a dump down there. Why would I waste my money building down there? Commonwealth realises that too.

NMG, you don’t have to like what I have to say, but to use an overused cliche, “it is what it is”. The fact of the matter is that downtown is not a place people want to live and/or do business. It has been that way for at least 25 years.

Call it poor planning or whatever you like, but living in the past and rehashing ‘mistakes’ of past City Councils isn’t going to solve anything. I’m not even sure there is anything to solve at this point… at least not that I want put more of my taxpayer dollars to ‘fix’.

Was this information in a recent report to council? If not why not?

Was city administration trying to keep it quiet so that some on council who at least ask the tough questions aren’t aware of what’s going on behind closed doors? Thanks Ben for digging this up.

Maybe Brian Skakun can shed some light on what’s going on.

This is a promise that was made to the taxpayers of pg. Usually there is a consequence for not living up to a legal agreement but maybe that depends on how many friends you have at city hall and it seems McLaren has a few in the right places.

JB wrote: “The only crime as I see it is how much energy, time, and money we’ve put into ‘downtown revitalization’.”

So how much is that compared to the money we put into creating and maintaining single family residences each with 60 foot be 120 foot lots and the utilities, including roads to service them?

What is the comparison of servicing the new Sandman on HWY 16, for instance, to a new hotel on Brunswick if that hotel had the same number of rooms as the Sandman instead of condo apartment units?

If you do not know those figures, you’re whistlin’ Dixie, JB.

“Was this information in a recent report to council? If not why not?”

Since it is a legal matter between the City and a contractor, it MAY be kept to an in camera session ….. but it is not REQUIRED to be kept in camera.

I wonder what advice City Council may be getting about that from our new City Manager.

JB wrote: “The fact of the matter is that downtown is not a place people want to live and/or do business. It has been that way for at least 25 years.”

So, it simply becomes a matter of how long we go with the lowest common denominator in our pool of cro-magnon business people.

There are many North American cities that have started off going that way, but most have eventually turned that around. It is just a matter on how low we can go on that. Right now we have gone very low.

The reason why it does not look as bad as it actually is, is that the City has torn a lot of places down. Many have not taken that route. Instead, place are boarded up and have graffiti on them. We had a fellow here from Seattle who spoke about how they turned those kinds of places around. We do not have those kinds of imaginative people here.

What this City has effectively done by tearing place down is made it difficult to start up again. Someone now has to come in and build places at today’s construction costs which means they require an economic rent of say $25 to $30/sf. Unless they can get a subsidy. So, it is actually the City which is one of the reasons why developers are looking for tax incentives. The older places, spruced up, can be economically viable with around $10/sf annual rent. This allows a small business to move in and try to make a go of it.

I have recently seen what has happened in centre town Bellingham, WA. The transition from the old run down downtown to the newer vibrant and active Fairhaven and Railroad street “cultural” district is something to study since it is a city not that much larger than PG.

Let us see what the City does with the WDIC building area. They did not do much with the Plaza400 nor the Courthouse. I am waiting to be surprised to see if they have learned their lesson about leveraging such a development into more spin offs. It is IPG that should be working on that right? So what are they doing?

Does this sound eerily similar to PG?

http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/2613818-opinion-revitalization-of-kitchener-s-east-downtown-area-a-welcome-de/

For what it’s worth, I would be one of those people they describe in the first paragraph.

I visited Kitchener a number of years ago for a friends wedding and then returned last year after their downtown revitalization project had been completed. I couldn’t believe my eyes at the transformation.

From the article:

“City government played a pivotal role as well. Development of the city’s downtown core, spurred by Kitchener city council’s investment of $100 million, is credited with attracting more than $500 million in investment by the private and public sector”

It can be done if people actually make an effort to do it and not simply write-off the area as a “fact of the matter” situation. Facts change every day and what is fact today will not be a fact tomorrow if people choose a different path.

Throw in another million for some parking meters and add more social agency initiatives and housing downtown…lots of red feather logos on doors downtown. Maybe some empty buildings, buy some more air for another cool million and continue to subsidize business people and their personal wealth portfolios, maybe start with the bingo hall Great Flip or the Hotel Flip and throw more money in their jeans…OR invest a few million per year in an arms length organization almost 100% subsidized by city taxpayers, with a mandate to encourage business activity….we could encourage tourism activity with a visitor centre on first avenue that actually has no way to service or facilitate rubber tire traffic especially RV traffic, and plop Mr. PG somewhere out on the highway nearer where the visitors centre used to stand and made more sense(see the part about more money in individual’s pockets at taxpayer expense)….

Oh wait, we have done all that.

Part of the problem is that the credit card of the largest landholder in the core is reaching the limit. If a private landowner paid taxes for a few years with no income coming in from a vacant lot or a boarded up building he would have a lot more incentive to do something. I would bet that the cities you mentioned did not gobble up every piece of property they could get their hands on.

One can only hope that they follow the recommendation in the core review and unload some of these properties.

The city is well on the way to a 100 mill investments with the 50 mill cop shop, 15 mill heater, 2.5 in the PG hotel and another million for some air and if not for the voters millions more on a dyke. Better dumb it down a bit for those currently using up the chair space in council chambers and say SMART investments:)

And what is the current status of the downtown prospectus that was rolled out with so much fanfare not that long ago?

(0.0)
^

It’s too bad we didn’t have someone with the vision and acumen of gus and NMG. This City would be booming under their guidance, no doubt.

I’ll look forward to seeing gus running for Council next term, and NMG can be his campaign manager! ;)

“Part of the problem is that the credit card of the largest landholder in the core is reaching the limit”

I would suggest that much of that is due to the fact that they have to spend so much money servicing a sprawling area of 320 square KM’s, with 75,000 people living in it.

At what point will they start to realize that unless the population grows by 300,000 people, it’s crazy to NOT try and become more efficient by encouraging infill development, including a revitalized downtown core?

“I’ll look forward to seeing gus running for Council next term, and NMG can be his campaign manager”

That means I’d have to move back! Hmmm, let me think about it. Nah, I like my current environment more. People out here seem to get it ;)

There is one thing we have to remember …. history.

The people who developed the West came from the East ….. first from the East of Canada, and now from the East of the world.

That all worked out fine, until it came to the central interior of BC.

You see, when the overlanders came from eastern Canada and crossed the Rockies, some of them took the turn that took them down to Kamloops and further to the coast.

A smaller group, on the other hand, went down the Fraser to the PG area and beyond. They took the wrong turn, thus we ended up with the gene pool which struggles with developing in the right places.

We can see the results to this day. ;-)

Ah come on Gus, we all come from away, if you go back far enough.
Who is dat Gene guy you talk about?
;)
metalman.