pay parking would work if there was only one downtown.
Unfortunately, the city has allowed another downtown to grow, which is in college heights.

Pay parking will probably hurt downtown, and I don’t see them making any profit with this adventure.

It seems so wrong. This should be the end of the the current council and mayor if this goes through.

So a small amount will come from the from the Off-Street Parking Fund.

Where is the On-Street Parking Fund? Was there ever one? If not, why do we have an off-street fund but not an on street fund?

A fund for this and a fund for that and no fund for these things over here.

It seems to me that money from specific funds are often taken from accoutns specifically intended for other purposes but do we ever get told that funds have been put back and how that money was generated to enable it to be put back?

Or do we just have a lot of slush funds?

Who is keeping track? Where can the general taxpaying public go on the City web site to find a simple accounting for all the funds over the years?

Or do we all have to be financial wizards wading through one annual financial report after another to try to connect the dots?

Could someone explain to me why we have a debt reserve fund. Shouldn’t this money directly be going onto the debt to pay it down asap so we are not paying more interest?

The City’s Sustainable Finance Policy – August 23, 2010

http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/legislativeservices/CityPolicies/Documents/Sustainable_Finance%5B1%5D.pdf

That policy was approved with Green, Stolz and others on Council.

One of the funds it provides for is the Endowment Reserve fund which is a “revolving fund” with the monies borrowed being repaid with interest from the General Operating Fund.

Seems like the appropriate fund for this purpose. Probably depleted for all we know.

It states this about the debt reduction reserve fund:

“Policy 18.3
The City will establish a debt reduction reserve that may be used to pay out balances owing on Municipal Finance Authority issued debentures upon their 1st ten year maturities.

==================================

As far as following in Detroit’s footsteps …. we are a VERY long way away from that. It will need several more councils as we have now to move us closer to that.

But mainly, we do not have the massive suburban developments sucking an independent city in the center dry.

Good point littlebird. The City sets up a Debt Reserve Fund, then borrows the money for implementing the Parking program, then says that they will not repay the money to the Debt Reserve Fund. So our debt remains the same, and for all intents and purposes the City has borrowed the money, and is in fact paying interest, (because it did not pay the reserve fund money to down pay the debt).

This is another example of the **creating accounting** practices that the City has adopted over the years that basically allows them to move money around between the various funds. It also allows them to carry out projects and avoid borrowing, so that they can avoid a referendum or an alternative approval process.

This type of scheme relies on the average citizen not paying attention to what is happening at City Hall. It usually works fine, however every now and then they get caught, as in this case.

There is no net benefit to the City for downtown parking and one has to wonder why the hell they would even bother. One possible motive could be to make on street parking so expensive, that people go to off street parking, and into the parkades, and thus the City benefits from that source of revenue.

When the City borrowed money from one of their reserve funds for more road work in 2012, they were emphatic that money borrowed from other funds had to be repaid. Seems they have now changed their tune.

Such is the way of City Hall.

Compare Vancouver, that socialist ideal, (LOL) to Detroit. If Detroit had a Spaxman as town planner in the 70s and a Council that listened (unlike PG) Detroit would not be in the position it is in today.

Vancouver is a city that other cities look up to for what they have accomplished with an amazing mixture of uses. The main thing they have done is beat off the thrust of ribbons of freeways going into the center of the city. They have managed to use old grid streets such as Granville and Oak to bring car and service truck traffic into the center without killing neighbourhoods. Plus the core of the city has a great mixture of residential, office, retail, entertainment and people places found only in some world cities.

If anyone thinks that happened by accident, you are wrong.

I think that now that Surrey is the second largest city in te GVRD and likely to become the largest soon, it is trying to emulate the City of Vancouver. They appear to be densifying their core. I suspect they will have more of an uphill battle in today’s environment.

The parkades are virtually full!!!!!!

All I can say is–can’t wait for the next ‘municipal’ elections. This creative accounting, with no repayments is like a snowball rolling downhill–fast.

Anyone who believes things will change by voting the current Mayor and group of councillors out is dreaming.

Sounds like a three card montie game that the city is playing. the meters are rendered useless by vandals with in one year, and then we the tax payers get to pay an twenty bucks a year to subsidize the downtown.

How about the city start selling off the city properties.

how about getting rid of half of the administrators in city hall, cut down the bureaucracy, roll up our sleeves and get down to running the city like a business.

They should bring in a charge at each set of lights, who ever pays more gets a green light. How do I get that on tonight’s agenda :)

sjm….My hope is that we get a better slate of candidates to choose from in the next election. Most money ever spent on a mayoral campaign and we are seeing the results in spades.

By poking his head up and commenting on certain controversial issues IMO Dan Rogers is considering another run. Would likely win against Green but not really a step forward.

Fader, Bruce 306
Fetterly, Eugene 513
Green, Shari 6969
Huber, Alex 1200
Lewis, Brandon 707
Rogers, Dan 5332
++++++++++++++++++++++++

I could not fill a full slate on the ballot and am not overly impressed by some of the new faces so far. Name recognition seems to be a bigger factor than past performance to get re elected- no other possible explanation for Stoltz still wasting the air in council chambers.

Affleck, Scot 2621
Beebe, John 2443
Dickenson, Joanne 2482
Everitt, Frank 5638
Friesen, Dorothy3537
Frizzell, Garth 6189
Gadsby, Jordan 5117
Gagnon, Brad 2625
Hall, Lyn 9529
Koehler, Albert 7324
Krause, Murry 7976
Munoz, Debora 4853
Shaw, Travis 1598
Skakun, Brian 9040
Stolz, Cameron 7146
Turner, Myrt 4182
Ulch, Harry 2790
Wilbur, Dave 6932

“Anyone who believes things will change by voting the current Mayor and group of councillors out is dreaming.” I dream of someone like Harold Moffat stepping forward.

PG residents of today couldn’t handle a Mayor like Harold Moffat. It was a different time.

I just read recently how one winter he suspended snow clearing/plowing activites one winter back in the 70’s. I couldn’t imagine something like that happening today.

I commend JB, lonesome, gus and the other posters for contributing to the debate … by contributing, you are at the minimum proving that PG is worth a discussion and potentially laying out some ideas for the future.

For what is worth, John Backhouse was IMHO the most effective mayor we have had in the multiple decades I have observed PG politics.

John’s focus was a balance between process and outcomes. He used his capacity as Mayor to ensure that reasonable discussion occurred, diverse input was received and usually rational decisions were made leading to positive outcomes. One of John’s most defining quotes was that 60% of the voters had voted against him so it was his job to make sure that the wishes and needs of the majority were met, not his.

The current council has a predetermined agenda, defined what is good and what is evil prior to a reasonable investigation and discussion and avoids open, transparent processes whenever possible.

It is possible to find an effective council in the future. However, we will have to look past the traditional agendas and find someone without an axe to grind who has a commitment to good process. And who is NOT looking at the Mayor’s chair as a step to further political roles.

Nowdays, we get governments that bend over backwards to every special interest group. This has cost us all dearly.

“John Backhouse was IMHO the most effective mayor we have had in the multiple decades I have observed PG politics.”

Bang on!!!

BUT ….. who can remember the Councillors?

Try Art Stauble, for instance. Nothing much would pass by him!!

I liked Backhouse too, but even he was wearing his welcome out near the end of his career… when a guy named Kinsley came along and started selling the false dream of having it all with low taxes.

One thing that should not be overlooked is the importance of having an effective city manager.

The jury is still out on Beth James but seems more assertive than Derek Bates was and hopefully is up to the task of making the department heads accountable and get city hall headed in the right direction. It was a bit of an over-reach to ask that all questions to staff go through her but could be a result of what she sees going on behind the scenes on Patricia Bvld.

She might even notice that the planning department exists in name only:)

I think Dan Rogers was an excellent Councillor after the initial year or two. I think he had some poor Councillors during his term that gave him grief. He certainly new his governance responibilities and had a much better public presence than either Kinsley or Green.

I also think that Zurowski made an excellent Councillor after one or two years in that position. He was very conscientious of his responsibilities and was up to snuff on most issues.

Dezell tried hard, but was not up to the Stauble level in my view.

Moffat …. too old fashioned and possibly a bit autocratic for my liking. Far to WASPish in my opinion. This is not Dutch Reform country. Try Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Lynden for that philosophy of life.

I did not follow Council too closely during his time.

Gus, the parkade on 2nd Ave is not full, you can rent it to store your boats, etc over the winter. The reason it is not full is that the federal government workers park on the street as “they are afraid to go into the parkade”. Another parking lot empty is the Friendship Centre, the people that use to use it now park on the street.
What they need to buy is the license plate recognition system.

I enjoy shopping downtown but I know people that will not shop downtown when the meters come in. They are the type that just go down for bread, etc. which means that they are only there for 10-15min and they won’t want to pay $1.00 for that.

“One thing that should not be overlooked is the importance of having an effective city manager.”

So true, lonesome sparrow!!!!!! Chester Jeffries most certainly was a great City Manager. George Paul was also tolerable/excellent. They are hard acts to follow.

I want to hear more from the City Manager. Where is she going to be taking us? It is her show.

Implementation is everything in my world. One can have all the best intentions by setting direction, but when no one can or even wants to implement that direction, the operation is dead in the water!!

I am waiting for the day that I can see who is wagging the dog by the tail, or whether everyone is clicking together like a well oiled machine.

I didn’t always agree with Harold Moffat but I also think that he was a good mayor as he told that administration that they work for him and council and that they, mayor and council, worked from the citizens.

Part of the problem is that we are paying too much for our mayor, being mayor was never to a full time job. We are told by the politicians that if we pay good money (better money than the private sector) we will attract good people, but all we get are career politicians at all level of government that feel they know better and are better than the unwashed general public.

If they will really put the minimum time at 1 hour I will also not go downtown, that is for sure. I wonder what will happen to the old Hudson Bay Parkade. I used to park there when I wanted to stroll around 3rd.

I go to Wasabi Sushi. That is a destination. If I can park for free in the parkade next to it, I will continue to go, even though it will mean a longer walk and a very unpleasant walk. I will not pay $1 or even $2 to take in a meal there and do the little people watching one can do there.

As far as making parkades pleasant in PG, we are certainly challenged, especialy the monstrocity on 2nd. Looks like a bombed out city in which the parkade was left standing!!!

They could actually spend some money to fix it so that it is more people friendly.

Look at the parkade at the hospital. Nice and open. Any hospital workers complaining about usiing that, other than possibly the distance to walk?

I had the pleasure of watching the Billy Barker parade in Quesnel this Saturday. This parade was in progress for at least 30 Minutes, and had approx. 5000 people or more lining the sidewalks through out the downtown.

Interesting to see Mayor Green, riding in a convertible and waving to the crowd. I don’t recall seeing her in the Pr George Elks May Day parade, but perhaps I missed her.

In any event the parade gave Ms Greene a great opportunity to see all of downtown Quesnel from an elevated position, and guess what???

NO PARKING METERS TO BE SEEN ANYWHERE.

Quesnel has shopping centres outside the downtown area, ie; South Quesnel, where they have Cdn Tire, Staples, Cdn Superstore, Walmart, Lordco, to name a few.
In addition they have a shopping centre and stores in West Quesnel.

Soooo. It seems that the town of Quesnel has proven that you can operate a City (Town) without parking meters. Interesting concept. Perhaps the Mayor should take some Councillors to Quesnel to see this phenomenon first hand.

This is nuts, most of the parking on the street is taken up by employees, pay the fee and move on.

I’m not sure what your point is, Palopu. Some towns and cities have parking meters and some don’t. Are you saying a parade can’t take place on a street that has parking meters on it?

The point has been made elsewhere, the DBIA shot themselves in the foot by not engaging downtown business owners and employees who are taking up most of the downtown parking spots.

Wasen’t Backhouse the one that shutdown downtown redevelopment from Fairfax?

I probably shop downtown Quesnel more often than PG.

What I trying to infer was that with Harold Moffat you could be pretty much assured that the decisions that he made were in his opinion the best for the city and not a special interest group(campaign contributor). A person did not have to look behind to see who was really pulling the strings.

When Dan got the big chair he also got a bad case of OCD…..Only Concern-Downtown…from almost first day in office saw his legacy as the person who spearheaded the effort to rebuild with the holy trinity:WIC PAC & Cop Palace.

JohnnyBelt. I though my point was clear.

1. Both Quesnel & PG Have a downtown.

2. Both have outlying shopping centres.

3. Only PG has parking meters to gouge those who shop downtown. Quesnel seems to be able to cope with both downtown and shopping centers without putting in pay meters.

4. The Mayor being in the parade was able to see that there were no parking meters anywhere in Quesnel, and so maybe she and the Councillors might want to ask the Mayor of Quesnel, how they managed to do it.

The Mayor talks about a pilot (to remove the meters) that failed: By who’s standard did it fail? Businesses reported an immediate 17% increase to their businesses.

The Mayor talks about extensive consultation before bringing the meters back: Who did she talk to? She didn’t talk to the DBIA or any of the major stakeholders.

Some people talk about office workers using the free parking. It’s possible, but who cares? There’s still lots of room to park.

Those office workers are getting tickets right now and they’re not bothering to pay. Why would they pay if meters were brought in?

The Mayor talks about starting towing: That’s great, but what is that going to look like? Is there going to be more ‘extensive consultation’ about this? Extensive consultation where she talks to nobody?

Stolz is talking about bringing in the ‘boot’. Good luck with that. How are you going to plow streets with a pile of vehicles there? What happens if a vehicle is forced to be left downtown overnight and it gets smashed? Who would be liable?

Palopu: “JohnnyBelt. I though my point was clear.

1. Both Quesnel & PG Have a downtown.

2. Both have outlying shopping centres.

3. Only PG has parking meters to gouge those who shop downtown. Quesnel seems to be able to cope with both downtown and shopping centers without putting in pay meters.

4. The Mayor being in the parade was able to see that there were no parking meters anywhere in Quesnel, and so maybe she and the Councillors might want to ask the Mayor of Quesnel, how they managed to do it.”

So you’re planning to move to Quesnel? You seem to hate the way everything is done here around PG.

icicle: “Stolz is talking about bringing in the ‘boot’. Good luck with that. How are you going to plow streets with a pile of vehicles there?”

Typically when a vehicle is booted, a phone call is then placed immediately to a towing company to tow the vehicle. I presonally would love to see boot system implemented… people who brag about never paying for parking tickets wouldn’t be bragging for long.

“Wasen’t Backhouse the one that shutdown downtown redevelopment from Fairfax?”

Cadillac Fairview [url]http://www.cadillacfairview.com[url]

The voters in PG actually shot that down by voting out most of the Councillors who supported that development.

It was actually a serendipidous vote since CF would have pulled out of any deal just about the time that properties would have been razed. Why? Because of the demise of Eatons which was a key anchor in that proposal. It would have killed the downtown in a different way than it has been killed over the years.

CF built a very nice town centre mall in Peterborough, a city about the size of PG. It eventually ended up lie the mall to the south of Quesnel. Died a slow death of lack of sales volumes. Malls are not a guarantee for anything. Their monolithic character means that they are hard to deal with when they fail. That is most noticeable in small communities.

Here is a recent article about the poor interest of City Hall in the downtown mall of some 40 years ago. It was much nicer, at least in my mind, of how it integrated with the downtown streets.

Yet it failed, big time, and it looks like the “revitalization” of downtown that is needed includes the mall.

http://www.kawarthanow.com/kawarthanowguide/2012/12/01/peterborough-square

When I worked downtown I parked in the 2nd Ave. Parkade. The second time I got my spot there (there was about a year when I didn’t need it), I got one of last spots that were available, the rest were accounted for.

The situation may have changed, but I don’t think there are as many open spots as people think. Many of them are bought by Northern Health and places like that to keep vehicles, vehicles that may not actually be in the parkade for a large amount of time. It looks like a space is empty, but it’s still paid for.

As for government workers, do people realize that hundreds of them work down there? Do you honestly believe that they all park on 3rd Avenue? Do you think it’s even physically possible for them all to park there? Here’s a hint, watch them when they leave work and you’ll see that most of them head to the parkades or off street lots, LOL.

An interesting document from the past …. around CF time.

Notice it is only the odd pages that have been copied here. Too bad people who take responsibility to put documents on the web do not at least make sure that they have the full document. :-(

http://icsp.princegeorge.ca/ICSP%20Documents/Downtown%20Revitilization%201996.pdf

JohnnyBelt. As usual you avoid the issue at hand and change the subject. Hate is a rather strong word. As for moving to Quesnel, maybe you should move there, and help them screw up their town like this one has been screwed up.

In fact I have a dislike for any Councillor or Politician who thinks that they can BS the average Citizen on a regular basis. It seems that they think we are all stupid.

Finding devious ways to get money out of taxpayers, either through user fee’s, increases in taxes, shifting money around from various funds, making private deals on City property that benefits no one but the **vested interest** groups, is in my opinion a p..s poor way to run a City, and certainly does nothing to make Citizens proud of those who supposedly represent them.

The problem from the CF proposal right up to the current Downtown Prospectus is that the city uses the Ta Da approach to revitalization.

Roll out the latest plan in front of as many cameras as possible hold their hands out and say “TA DA” and then all run back to city hall so they can be behind the counter with pencils in hand ready to fill out the necessary permits.

Eventually they get tired of waiting, do a little navel gazing and decide that maybe the developers need a little tax help. Roll out the tax plan….TA DA…back to city hall.

lather, rinse, repeat.

Maybe they should call for a meeting with the largest landholder in the downtown core to see where exactly the problems are….never mind.

Palopu: “JohnnyBelt. As usual you avoid the issue at hand and change the subject.”

My views on the parking situation are well known if you’d care to actually read my posts. I admit that I have an issue with people who are negative and constantly whine and bellyache about everything. If you want change and think you can do better, run for council.

The Revitalization of downtown Prince George – 1999

All one ever wanted to know about the efforts up to then.

“On 2 November 1981, city council denied a rezoning application that would have permitted the proposed expansion of the Parkwood Shopping Centre. At the 21 November 1981 civic election, the councillors who opposed the Parkwood expansion were defeated; the only official re-elected who supported the Town Centre Plan was the mayor. In February 1982, Cadillac-Fairview and the Bay withdrew.”

The Mayor from 1980 to 1986 was Mercier. Backhouse was mayor from 1987 to 1996 ….. some of the best years post 1965/75 or so extreme growth.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fojs.library.ubc.ca%2Findex.php%2Fbcstudies%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1519%2F1562&ei=T5_tUfHAIcr0qAHBoIH4Cw&usg=AFQjCNHSo473y85rZXvF_Ra_WJ1_DCaNsg&sig2=Vu8orZY_qA2eEQ_TmRpZKg&bvm=bv.49478099,d.aWM

Groundhog Day. Here is a report from 2000

http://icsp.princegeorge.ca/ICSP%20Documents/Downton%20Revitalization%20Study%202000.pdf

And 2001

http://icsp.princegeorge.ca/ICSP%20Documents/Downtown%20Revitilization%20Study%20Volume%202%20-%20Part%201.pdf

From that report:

“Past revitalization efforts in Prince George have tended to be grand endeavours, proposing detailed and relatively inflexible plans whose complexity and comprehensiveness contributed to their failure.

“A successful plan must be designed to adapt and evolve over time, along with the complex and ever-changing environment within which it must operate.

“Downtown redevelopment is a long-term project. If a plan’s level of detail is too high, or if it lacks flexibility, then it will not allow for an evolving urban environment and development process.

“A downtown environment that is too controlled and predetermined will be artificial and sterile and will consist of unrelated and detached elements.

“A plan that allows for an organic development process will result in a more coherent and better functioning downtown.”

BANG ON!!!!!

We have no planners in this city that understand that or are not listened to, or both …….

In fact, we have no planner. I want to know what the new city manager is going to be doing with that.

In case people forget or do not know, the City Planner reports to the City Manager, NOT City Council!!!!

Palopu attempting to engage a sack of hammers in meaningful debate? Good luck with that.

As for implementing yet another user fee for anyone parking downtown… it is unfortunate our Mayor and Council has no vision for this city. Kill the down town core to make a bit, if any, of money.

Continue to approve the building of new retail space outside the downtown core while the core has a surplus of vacant retail space, what insanity is this?

When Backhouse is being touted as one of the best mayors this city had, it sure says a lot for just how low the standards are for competition! :-)

He was the guy who changed the mayor’s job from part to full-time pay and was as willing to spend others’ money as the rest of them.

The problem in city council is not much different than any other level of government – not one of them look at tax money as something that IS NOT THEIRS!!! They treat the taxes paid into their coffers as their own spending kitty to do with as they wish and not be accountable to the very citizens they take the money from.

Bang On Jetstream.

JohnnyBelt Seems all you do is whine about the whiners.

You seem to agree with most of what goes on at City Hall. Why don’t you run for Council. You would fit right in with most of the present Council.

A quick drive through downtown this afternoon, showed between 7th Ave to 1st Ave. and Victoria Street to Queensway approx. 400 empty parking spaces. In addition four of the Citys off street parking lots had approx. 150 empty spaces.

If you went beyond the area mentioned above you would come up with another 4/500 spaces, not to mention all the customer parking spaces, plus private parking from some business such as Canada Trust, and Integres, etc;

So where is this serious parking problem. Does it even exist. Do we need pay parking to drive people away from the Farmers Market, and other business’s??

Hopefully at the Council Meeting to-night they will take another look at this whole fiasco.

ya’ll are missing the right questions:

Who will benefit from this project and who do they have in their pocket, ahem, who are they “freinds” with?

Palopu: “JohnnyBelt Seems all you do is whine about the whiners.

You seem to agree with most of what goes on at City Hall. Why don’t you run for Council. You would fit right in with most of the present Council.”

Again, this just proves that you don’t really read my posts. Carry on.

People1st: “Palopu attempting to engage a sack of hammers in meaningful debate? Good luck with that.”

People 1st trying to make a point without a personal attack? Good luck with that!

JohnnyBelt. I read all your posts. Do you??