People complain about enforcement. There are people abusing the on-street parking.

The City’s response is: let’s charge for parking.

I don’t see how pay parking and enforcement are related. Enforcement and pay parking are two separate issues. I think you need enforcement no matter what style of parking you have (pay or free).

Wouldn’t it make sense to get the enforcement issue sorted out first–particularly if it meant you could collect the outstanding fines? If you can’t get the enforcement issue sorted out, how is pay parking going to solve anything?

I will pull into a down town parking spot right in front of my place of work, then I will buy an all day parking pass now I will not be breaking the 2 hour parking laws, and I will not have to move my car. Win, win for me.

All day parking pass isn’t an option Walter! So hop to it every hour!

Free parking downtown was an experiment. It failed. Too many guys like Walter198 killed it. Let’s move on.

Icicle … you have hammered the nail on the head … the real issue is enforcement … how is it that other jurisdictions (i.e. City of Vancouver) can have effective enforcement and Prince George doesn’t? … with all of the technology available today, it should not be difficult to track time use and repeat offenders in a cost effective manner

as an aside JB, unless we develop a back bone and address the enforcement issue, offenders like Walter198 will continue to find other ways to abuse his fellow citizens … he has already declared his intent

Downtown does not invite shoppers. With all the other shopping areas it’s rare to need to go downtown. So why make it even less desirable to go there?

Did anyone notice an increase in downtown shopping or did the downtown fluorish in any way when the meters were removed the first time?

All ‘free’ parking did was give people who worked downtown a nice parking spot during the day. Now at least they’ll have to plug the meter for it.

There’s a couple of businesses on 3rd I go to fairly often. Out of say 10 visits, maybe twice I couldn’t find a convenient spot. I have also noticed there is lots of parking downtown Sat/Sun and after 4:00 which coincidentally is the times Revenue Canada is closed. I actually wonder if the problem really is people can’t park, or the city can’t make money on it. For me the $1.00 won’t be the deterrent, it’ll be humping from my car to the pay kiosk – in the minus 20 cold and snow, then back to the business, and then when I get distracted and spend more time than I thought, do it all over again to put another $1.00 in – I’m assuming we’ll have a two hour maximum.

Lets not move on JB. Enforce the rules. This is like killing a fly with a sledge hammer.
DBIA, C of C, retailers and petitioners don’t want it. The economics look plain stupid. This is dumb on so many levels.

Again, people forget that metered parking isn’t new to the downtown. We’ve had some form of pay parking for the majority of the time.

Taking the meters out didn’t have any real effect on downtown shopping or development, it was an experiment that failed. Perhaps if many of the people who work downtown weren’t so selfish, it might have been an idea that worked. It didn’t.

I have to agree with both sides. Removing the meters was an experiment that failed but spending a pile of money to put them back now is even dumber. Leave it as is and concentrate on enforcing the rules in place and collecting the fines.

The removing of the meters was not a failure, even though people like Johnny Belt would like you to believe it was. It wasn’t a failure because some business’s reported an increase in business. Some apparently as high as 17%.

In any event pay parking downtown is nothing more than a city ploy to force you to either use their off street parking facilities, or pay to park. Other areas of town do not have to pay, and downtown is no different.

In fact, the people who work downtown are also the best customers, because they are there 5 days a week, and spend a lot of money in the area. Much more than a lot of people who support meters, but don’t shop downtown.

I say, DO NOT GO BACK TO PAY PARKING, .

Continue with the present system, and find a better way to collect the fines. Not really complicated. The City can quit grinding the people of Prince George, and start to do something positive for a change.

Palopu: “It wasn’t a failure because some business’s reported an increase in business. Some apparently as high as 17%.”

Site your source please. Anecdotal evidence doesn’t count.

Palopu: “In fact, the people who work downtown are also the best customers, because they are there 5 days a week, and spend a lot of money in the area.”

This is nothing but pure speculation, and a common argument that people like to trot out. You have no idea where those people spend their money.

JohnnyBelt.

No.l I worked in the Downtown area for over 20 years, and have a pretty good idea where people spend their money. Its mostly in the restaurants and the shops in the area.

What do you think they do on their lunch breaks. Sit in a dark room and stare at their computers??

No. 2 Insofar as the increase in business goes, the information comes from the DBIA which they forwarded to the City to dispute the Cities claim (like yours) that the experiment with downtown parking was a failure.

The big failure in this town is people like yourself who cannot see the forest for the tree’s and continue on an ongoing basis to support the Cities policies regardless of how inane they are.

90% of the people in Prince George are against parking meters. You, the Mayor, and maybe Four Councillors, along with a few administration staff are in favour.

I was just downtown around 4pm to-day, and on third avenue from Victoria to George, there was at least 75 empty spaces.

Its time to stop the BS about downtown parking. Its all about ripping off people and generating revenue so that the City can continue to piss the money into the wind, under the guise of doing **good** for the City.

If you and your cohorts think it such a great idea, then why don’t you get the City to put it to a referendum on the next election. That would settle the issue once and for all.

JB, site your sources that free parking was a failure. You keep repeating it as if it were gospel. I work downtown. I pay for offsite parking. As Palpou says, I eat lunch and shop all the time in the area as do most in my office. Pay parking won’t have a big impact on me, but I am baffled why some people(vast minority) see this big problem with parking. This justifies borrowing a million to install and hundreds of thousands to maintain? Its moronic. Wake up man.

The City says the downtown parking experiment was a failure.

Has anyone seen how that experiment was conducted? I have not. Perhaps we have a bit of a study somewhere that tells us the indicators they used to determine that other than sticking their wet finger in the air to feel which way the wind was blowing.

Where are the several indictors such as

1. number of cars parked during specific time periods.

2. number of storefront businesses and types of businesses

3. number of customers for those businesses.

4. number of complaints regarding parking availability

5. number of parking infractions and face value of tickets issued.

6. number of tickets paid

7. number of tickets sold to a collection agency and money received from that sale.

8. cost of monitoring for parking infractions

9. number of vehicles towed

10. if they had a license plate scanner, they could even log information about the habits of the plate – when parked, where parked at a minimum.

I do not think it takes too much thinking to know that the City really did not do a reasonable study from which to reach any sort of conclusion of how to solve the problem.

Do we have a map of where pay parking will be in effect? I have not seen one.

I am concerned that there are businesses in the 3rd/George area that do not really have a parking problem. Because we have not proper study, we really do not know where parking infractions were a problem. Second? East end of third? North end of George? fourth? How about 5th?

Then there is the pool parking lot? People who may be working in the new Woody downtown may find it convenient to park there for free.

Palopu: “What do you think they do on their lunch breaks. Sit in a dark room and stare at their computers??”

Let’s quit with the BS. Do you think the presence of meters will somehow suddenly make people not eat? Where did they park their cars back when meters were present? Those workers who were abusing the system will simply have to find a more legal way to park. Too bad for them.

Same with this myserious figure you quoted of some business experiencing a 17% increase in business when the meters were gone. What an absolute load of hogwash. Assuming this dubious figure is correct for a business, how do ‘they’ figure the meters were the sole reason for the increase?

The DBIA shot themselves in the foot when they didn’t do anything about the abuse. Now they’re crying foul. I don’t have a lot of sympathy.

The linked transportation and parking study by opus Hamilton is quite thorough. It identifies problems and suggest solutions. I am not sure which solutions, if any, were implemented.

Anyone serious about determining whether the free on-street parking experiment was a failure needs to look at this 2007 report which is likely the best baseline we have pre the current experiment and find out which recommendations were implemented along with the free parking and what the results were specific to most of the indicators in the parking study.

In my view, doing anything less than that is not a fiscally responsible way of conducting civic business.

http://princegeorge.ca/citybusiness/longrangeplanning/transportationplans/downtownplan/Documents/dtn_trans_report.pdf

I agree that the DBIA is to blame for not participating in the whole survey. I would like to hear from them that they tried but were rebuffed by staff and Council.

They present a business plan each year for “approval” by Council as part of their agreement. That should have been a key part for each year and likely should have been funded on a 50/50 basis by the DBIA and the City.

As far as the increase, I would like to know how that figure was derived the same as I would like to know how the City determined the experiment was a failure.

Now, the interesting thing is that there was an increase over the year or two, even though they had complaints about people using the spaces to play musical chairs and plug the meters even though they did not shop.

The Opus Hamilton study, btw, points towards reducing the price of monthly parking on the City’s off street parking lots. That is a notion which has come up on here a few times. Since I do not use those lots, or any downtown parking spots for long term parking, I wonder if the fees were reduced as suggested or not.

Does anyone know how much it costs for monthly parking? According to the study the cost in 2006 or so was over $80/mo. They suggested it drop to half to encourage people to park there rather than one the street.

BTW, the parking on 3rd was free at the time of the study. There did not seem to be many complaints about that from the merchants at the time according to the report.

What changed?

Gus, what’s your opinion about bylaw 6056 section 9 subsection 3? I think the bylaw basically says that it’s okay to move your car across the street every two hours. Across the street is on another block…

Exactly how do you expect the DBIA or anyone else to enforce something that the City bylaws says is okay?

Whenever I have gone downtown to either visit a store or have lunch, I’ve never had a problem finding a parking spot. It may not always be directly in front of the door of a particular store, I may have to walk a short distance, but most of the time I’m within a close walk to where ever I want to go. There is no parking problem as I see it. I think Palupo nailed it on the head, that this is nothing more then an exercise to find another way to make some money off the citizens of Prince George.

If there is a problem with parking that I don’t see and if it is caused by employees parking where customers should be parking. Then make the respective business accountable. If it is determined and proved that a certain business is allowing it’s employees to plug up the parking, then fine the business and the offending employees. It’s really not that hard to solve.

The idea to borrow over a million dollars from a debt reduction fund, to finance parking meters (or parking system) is totally crazy.. How does that make any sense to spend money we really don’t have to discourage down town prosperity? I have to agree with Gus that there appears to be very little research into the benefits of parking meters. The city comes up with ideas, but where is the research? It’s been reported in the local press that some stores have seen an increase of 17% in business since parking meters were removed. Where is the city’s data to support that it was a failure, as Mayor Green has been reported saying?

JB wrote: “This is nothing but pure speculation, and a common argument that people like to trot out. You have no idea where those people spend their money.”

Walk down the street and see where they spend their money by looking which places die and move on, which ones barely survive, and which ones continue to do relatively well. It is ye olde business school approach …. ;-)

Survivors?

1. breakfast, lunch and coffee places which are typically open from early morning to late afternoon – a bite if got up too late for breakfast, break time for getting out of the office, lunch time to join friends. There are several scattered around to service the office workers. One may even be able to move the car, plug the meter or even wipe the chalk mark off the tire or move the car a quarter of a wheel turn at the same time.

2. specialty restaurants which open for lunch, possibly close for a couple of hours, and open again for the evening. Nancy O goes one better and has evening entertainment.

3. businesses which are open for mid to late night entertainment, although they have had problems in PG which has turned more WASPish over the years and rolls up its sidewalks earlier than it used to.

4. destination shops (unique in the city)such as bakery, sports/hunting, unique style hardware, etc.

5. second hand stores (cheap rent and close to customers)

6. travel agents – although they seems to be vacating

7. banks – they too seem to be vacating but their downtown business and personal banking still maintains some of them for the time being. The BMO has pulled out and the RBC has closed a second branch.

8. empty ground floor retail is being rented to professional services due to opportunity of visibility for small professional offices accompanied with low rent. – lawyers, engineers, financial agents, etc.

9. Then we have what is likely the largest change over time …. empty lots which used to have businesses on them over part of the last 4 decades but no new businesses have been built on them. Take a walk and most will likely be surprised of how many of those there are.

The last one means no boarded up spaces, but other than that is a sign of a dying retail area.

So, if people AND BUSINESSES do not use the downtown street level businesses, they would all have gone. Most cannot survive on after office hour business alone.

Finally it appears to me and to most of the citizens of Prince George, that the current Mayor and a few councillors are once again trying to hood-wink it’s citizens.

I agree with you icicle. No definition of bock in the bylaw. thus we go to dictionary definition such as “city block – a rectangular area in a city surrounded by streets and usually containing several buildings”

I think the only way to reasonably record it is through a license plate reader, time stamp and GPS coordinate recording system. Anything else would be mickey mouse these days.

Once it is recorded properly, then they can talk about how to enforce it.

Cheetos, according to the study they collected over $150,000 from meters in 2005 and just under that from fines which were $10 at the time. The report authors thought the fines were too low.

We have not heard about fines. The meters were $0.50/hr then.

Double that for more than $300,000 income, triple the fines after the first fine and that can get $300,000 in as well.

$600,000 per year will pay for the system very quickly. I have not read the staff report of pay back, but given staff costs plus system cost for purchase and maintenance, return on “investment” could be not much more than 5 years.

How much of that will be paid through loss of business by merchants? How will we know how much that will be? Will someone be doing a credible baseline report before the paid parking system is installed, followed by annual reports of agreed to indicators?

Let us not make the same mistake again of having to rely on anecdotal info. THAT should be a definite requirement coming from the “conversation” on the 28th …..

“AutoVu is at the core of your license plate-enabled parking (LEP) system, allowing you to automatically capture license plate numbers to enforce parking permits or time-limited zone rules, and conduct lot inventories.

“With powerful features such as digital wheel imaging for chalking and shared-permits enforcement support, the AutoVu system captures license plate characters, vehicle images, time stamps and GPS coordinates, decreasing the number of parking ticket disputes and increasing compliance.”