Almost one half of every dollar earned in the country goes to the richest one-fifth. In 1980, 43 cents of every dollar went into the pockets and bank accounts of the top 20 per cent, a share that has slowly and steadily increased to reach a bit more than 47 cents. But even this understates the concentration of incomes since the underlying driver is the higher and higher proportion flowing to the top 1 per cent, who collected eight out of every 100 dollars earned in 1980, and 12 of every 100 in 2010.

The decline of the U.S. middle class is a Canadian story too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/the-decline-of-the-us-middle-class-is-a-canadian-story-too/article14540755/

I believe there is an actual “decline” in the wages of the middle class, unlike what the globe and Mail article refers to as wage stagnation, charles.

Both in Canada and the USA, the middle class is disappearing, because by definition middle class means “middle wealth”.

Could this be the reason why the middle class is disappearing?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/union-membership-middle-class-income_n_3948543.html

Three-quarters of all Canadian mortgages are insured by the federal government, up from only 30 per cent in 1988. Ottawa guarantees a total of $900-billion worth of mortgage insurance.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/after-decades-of-stoking-mortgages-ottawa-in-a-mess-of-its-own-making/article13705668/

Whatever you say charles… LOL

I just find it interesting how the media chooses what to report… shaping our perceptions of the world. Case in point. Most here would be well aware of the recent Islamic extremist attack on the West Gate Mall in Nairobi Kenya and could be forgiven for thinking that was the biggest terrorist event of the week.
However anyone that only reads Canadian news media would have no idea that elsewhere in Zamboanga, a city with over a million people, they had a terrorist attack that makes the West Gate Mall seem like a side show. Over the last week this Southwest Mindanao city was attacked by a hard core group of hundreds of Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF) rebels (Islamists) that tried to overrun the city and seize control taking thousands of civilians hostage as human shields.
The Philippine government has been fighting back house to house, and room to room for a week now. Latest reports had nearly a hundred MNLF killed, and over a hundred captured. The police have lost nearly a hundred as well in the fighting… the military is now using helicopter gun-ships on some targets. Nobody knows how many civilians have died until the fighting stops, but nearly 200,000 have fled the city, tens of thousands are huddled in the sports stadium for safety like Rawanda at its worst, and last estimates I heard were that over ten thousands homes have been completely destroyed from the fighting.
And yet not a word of this in the Canadian media? Had this happened almost anywhere else this would be headline news one would think. Mindanao is an island with the population of Canada in the center of the South China Sea along the worlds busiest shipping lanes, but it might as well be in the Burmuda Triangle or a black hole. Obviously the story is not news worthy in Canada.
I find it interesting because I’ve seen the MNLF eye ball to eye ball before. I was lucky in that there were lots of police around and I was in a safe area… but they have a stare that penetrates an evil intent like you won’t find anywhere else. It would be scary as hell having a mob of these thugs invade… its why I firmly believe good people in society should be armed as a deterrent… the ugly reality of the world necessitates this. Zamboanga was a city that had its civilian population thoroughly disarmed and were an easy target… when the MNLF decided to take over calling the police and military in after the fact hasn’t worked out that well for them.

Baucrats standing in the way of answers.

Charles you are a few weeks early for the skeptics. No doubt the US government shutdown is going to see interest rates go way up… its a perfect storm. There may well be a lot of unraveling when it all hits the fan, and you very well may be seen as a prophet.

As for the federal government and all the CMHC housing insurance… its what has driven interest rates down in large part because the banks are guaranteed to come out whole with no risk… all paid for by those forced to pay CMHC financing for their mortgages and of course the government backstopping $900 billion.

Without CMHC the interest rate would have to reflect the risk. CMHC recently announced they will be pulling back on issuing new insurance policies… this will cause a pull back in realestate as well as an increase in rates for those not insured.

To require CMHC one has to have less than 25% down payment… in the American housing correction prices dropped as much as 70% without an interest rate shock and absorbed by lower interest rates. The $900 billion CMHC insured will increase the national debt by an additional 150%… I don’t think the government can back it, and if not then will we still be talking about the big banks being the most solvent in the world? Who will the government guarantee the mortgages to the banks or the savings deposits of Canadians? My bet is they will try to save the banks and your retirement will not look so rosy.

Its anyone’s guess though. We no longer live in a world of financial markets governed by rules and markets. The central banksters are king, and they will be out to save themselves.

Furthermore its not only the media that selects what news it is we will be informed of… it seems to me the CRTC in Canada is getting way out of control in its censorship of what we can read and watch. My favorite show ‘Burn Notice’ is banned in Canada by the CRTC, I can’t download it on the internet without masking the ISP, but I can watch it Saturday nights on KOMO channel 8 cablevision? What is up with that selected censorship. I wanted to order online a book called ‘Murder Inc’ the story of America’s top mobster Meyer Lanksy who was the contractor for the Kennedy assassinations on behalf of Israel… the book appears to be banned in Canada? So this censorship stuff, who is it that is deciding what we are, and are not allowed to read and learn about? Why do we have more censorship here in Canada then they have in the old Soviet states of Europe? Why do they even try? Its not like people won’t find other ways to get the book or find the information. The CRTC has no moral right acting as a censor IMO.

Lots of questions with bureaucrats standing in the way of answers.

Swiss news
Hundreds of members of a Muslim rebel faction, angered by a pact struck with the main Muslim rebel group, marched into Zamboanga City on Sept 9. They took hundreds of hostages and began battling the security forces.

About 200 people, including 166 rebels, have been killed and more than 100,000 residents of the port city on the main southern island of Mindanao were displaced.

About 300 of the gunmen had surrendered or been captured, Zagala said.

The Zamboanga fighting has also cast doubts on the government’s efforts to bring an end to 40 years of Muslim rebellion that has killed 120,000 people, displaced 2 million and created a cycle of humanitarian crisis. About 750,000 people were displaced in 2008 by conflict in another part of Mindanao.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Philippine_troops_rescue_last_hostages,_kill_15_rebels_-_army.html?cid=36996658

Swiss news

Sudan security forces kill at least 50 protesters – rights groups

“Shooting to kill – including by aiming at protesters’ chests and heads – is a blatant violation of the right to life, and Sudan must immediately end this violent repression by its security forces,” said Lucy Freeman, Africa Deputy Director at Amnesty International.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Sudan_security_forces_kill_at_least_50_protesters_-_rights_groups.html?cid=36996256

Swiss News

Bus blast kills 17 government employees in northwest Pakistan

A bomb exploded on a bus carrying government officials in the insurgency-plagued Pakistani city of Peshawar on Friday, killing at least 17 people, including two women, officials said.

The remote-control bomb struck on a main road in Peshawar, near the frontier tribal areas of the northwest where Islamist militants have their strongholds.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Bus_blast_kills_17_government_employees_in_northwest_Pakistan.html?cid=36995366

This site is for 250 News

….. world news is best gotten from some Canadian sources and more so from British, Swiss and other sources, as well as sources from world hot spots which have to be read carefully since they tend to be filtered or embellished a bit more.

Then there is CNN …. and RT, the Russian cable channel broadcast on some local cable providers.

If anyone likes to follow world hot spots, there are apparently 60 countries involved in wars with over 450 militias-guerrillas and separatist groups involved.

We can each pick our favourite guerrillas to follow and there would still be enough left to go around for newcomers. ;-)

In the meantime rumours are being circulated that the proponents for the hotel/condo development on Brunswick are poised to name the hotel chain they have struck a deal with.

Now that there is a crane installed at the WDIC development, I am waiting to see if they are going to build a concrete core elevator/stair shaft or will use a more unconventional way of enclosing the typical central core for such a post and beam building structure.

“The ongoing conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have taken a tremendous toll on the people of those countries – resulting in the deaths of between at least 158,000 to 202,000 civilians”

http://costsofwar.org/article/civilians-killed-and-wounded

And all we have to worry about are potholes and DOW750 and People#1 style thinking. Neither has fired a shot yet. ;-)

oops … he is not up to 750 yet …. LOL

And on another topic…this week brought one more sudden “retirement” at City Hall. Beth James seems to be cleaning house. One more manager gone, this time from purchasing dept. If I were a CPG manager I would be watching my p’s and q’s.

Hey Gus. Thanks for bringing up the topic of elevator shaft/stairwell again like I did last week. Those will take up mucho square footage in an already small floor plan. As for the look of the building can I say non-ornate? No imagination from the architect? Maybe the architect was Art Vandalay. Looks to me like a “Jenga” length way piece of design. Will the windows open out? Six inch walls? Solar heat in keeping green? Along with the stairwell/elevator shaft, what about the furnace/boiler/air conditioning? There goes the whole first floor. If they have air conditioning they probably won’t have windows that open. No outside fire escape with sliding ladders and all? Firemen will like that. The building itself IMO will be as useful as Dannos $17 million dollar hot water pipe down George St. Will this WDIC have the hot water pipe plugged in from the street? And on and on.

Eagle one- have you seen the Zeitgeist movie? Might want to watch it

Seems PG is happier lately, walking through the mall more people are smiling and casually acknowledging each other. So nice to see. Happy friday everyone.

Eagleone, Charles, Gus, yay, how interesting. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Not me? Boo hoo.

I’m tired of these cut and paste world news stories on here on Friday morning. I know its a free-for-all but it’s a race to who gets to post the first link.

One for Seamutt
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/global-warming-extremely-likely-to-be-man-made-un-panel-says-1.1870378

Sorry PGguy1234

I would be much more curious about who buys the $800k condo in the new project. The hotel only has to convince a person to stay for a night or two, the condo on the other hand is a longer term commitment.

Maybe the guy that dropped $55 million on a downtown Vancouver condo had some pocket change left over:P

It’s a shame they took out that tennis court across from the Sandman Signature. It was nice seeing people playing there as we drive by on the hyway… Where else you see people playing sports like this.

Do we need a MERGE lane coming from Super Store to head West at the intersection????

Yesssssssssss WE DO… ANYBODY AT CITY HALL READ Any of these comments??? Or the Highway Dept ???

Unlikely to see a merge lane there Stillsmokin because of the twin turning lane off Queensway onto 16 West.

PG drivers have a hard enough time with a regular merge, information overload if they also had to figure out which lane a turning vehicle is in:)

Stillsmokin,

The problem with a merge lane there is you have a left turn off of ferry west onto HWY16 which is a 2 lane left turn.

If it was a 1 lane left turn I wouldn’t hesitate but with 2 lanes you could cause accidents easily. Someone wouldn’t pay attention when merging and would merge right into the side of a chip truck.

You could maybe get around that if the merge lane was very long. Perhaps all the way to Woodwheaton but if it was like the 97/16 intersection I could see problems.

I’m not saying it couldn’t be done, just that it’s not a simple construction project.

Say that again. There’s an $800k condo where? In PG?…

There are at least two books entitled “Murder, Inc.” listed by Amazon.ca, which presumably means that they are available in Canada. Here’s a link to one of them: http://www.amazon.ca/Murder-Inc-Burton-B-Turkus/dp/0615643027/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1380296733&sr=8-2&keywords=Murder%2C+Inc.

An announcement of the Hotel/Condo complex and the name of the Hotel is to be made on Monday.

My guess is that this complex will be somewhat less than originally planned. Much like the $67 Million 10 Story Wood Innovation Building that will now be 6 stories and $25 Million.

Seems the clearing of land etc; West of Happy Trails on 97 South is for an expansion of this facility. So the siting of some Chinese looking at the land may in fact have no bearing on the expansion. In addition I see that the Inland Kenworth, Parker Pacific property is now for sale, so one would assume that they are not going to build on this location.

Merge lanes in PG are generally too short. On of those is the one coming from the Ferry on ramp to HWY 97 south just before the Fraser bridge. That needs to be a yield since there is not enough room to speed up to the traffic speed typical for those driving on HWY97 and allowing people to merge.

Very few in PG know how to merge, which includes the people driving in both lanes which have to be aware of the merging process. As a result, too many people end up stopping.

Gus, you win again for the most cut and paste spam. I’m shocked.

That’s the best you can do? … figured as much!!

Neither of us two zebras will ever change their stripes …. along with a few others. We are who we are. You shoot from the hip. I don’t.

Harbinger wrote:

“Hey Gus. Thanks for bringing up the topic of elevator shaft/stairwell again like I did last week. Those will take up mucho square footage in an already small floor plan.”
————————————-
There are at least 4 buildings downtown which have a similar building area (the footprint size of the building)

1.Federal bldg. on 3rd and Victoria = 6 storeys

2.Scotia building on 4th and Victoria = 6 storeys

3.Royal Bank Building on 6th and Victoria = 9 storeys

4.Telus building on 6th = 8 storeys

The Federal and the RBC building have one exterior wall which has a short section of windows plus a blank wall in the middle. The blank wall has the following spaces behind it: elevators, 2 stairs, washroom and mechanical electrical riser shaft section of each floor.

The available office space is flexible ranging from a single occupancy per floor when “corridors” can be open to increase space efficiency, to a more fixed multiple occupancy layout with a u-shaped public corridor plan.

These building sizes are common in smaller cities as well as core parts of much larger cities which have not had old building torn down yet to be replaced by taller buildings with larger footprints.

The advantage, if you will, is that the floor layouts can be easily designed to accommodate access to daylight, even if the windows are not openable. The further one gets away from the windows, the bigger the spaces have to be that have window access, or the larger the area has to be which do not have natural light access.

They may seem inefficient from the point of view of ratio of service spaces to rentable space. However, one has to remember that scissor stairs take up less space than two independent stairwells, that there is a maximum distance to travel to an exit stairwell, that more occupancy per floor requires more washroom space and likely larger elevators and eventually even more elevators.

Designing any multi storey building to be as efficient as possible is an exercise in trade offs. One thing is for sure, square buildings are more efficient when it comes to heat loss per square foot floor space.

The mechanical systems are all housed in a penthouse on the roof. That level is not counted in the storey height. The elevator in this case is likely pneumatic and will require a small elevator room on the ground floor. But the building will likely have some sort of loading dock facility on the lane anyway.

Those are all factual matters.

When it comes to the building aesthetics that is a personal matter.

I know one thing, if the video of the building shows what it will look like, none of the office buildings I mentioned as being similar have as generous and potentially nice a lobby with as much daylight and street visibility as this building will have.

Due to the first level having a mezzanine floor, it could be argued that the building is 7 storeys high, but not so by building code definition and BOMA standards.

If anyone wants to look at a butt-ugly and cheap exterior building, look at the new BCHydro building.

interesting watch for the drivers out there that have a few minutes…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BKdbxX1pDw

The new hotel/condo will just be a hotel (Delta).

The project went to the design review panel and the “residential” portion was deleted (back in June I believe).

The WIDC building’s elevator shaft will be constructed out of cross-laminated timber wall panels, the elevator pit will be concrete.

Rounder: “The project went to the design review panel and the “residential” portion was deleted (back in June I believe).”

If that is indeed the case, it is probably because of the limited (i.e. non-existent) market in PG for $350K – $800K condos in the downtown.

For the Gullible Warming folks, here is a news item everyone needs to read.
Yes, you got that right. The extremely COOL Arctic summer has resulted in the polar icecap growing by 60% this year!!!

That is more than ONE MILLION SQUARE MILES LARGER than in 2012.

The link below shows that picture shows the year-over-year change from NASA satellite photos.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/Global-cooling-Arctic-ice-caps-grows-60-global-warming-predictions.html

There is small market for Condos in the Winnipeg-Vancouver corridor.

I think there would also be a market for smaller condo units – bachelor to one bedroom, which could have some flexibility built into them from the point of view of users if the hoteliers would be willing to provide booking and some other hotel services to the condo owners.

There are snow birds who maintain one or more bedroom condos here and some type of residence in the USA or Mexico and the more adventurous types even into South America.

But, it is simpler to do a standard development than one where the envelope is pushed a bit for the hinterland mindset.

What ever happened to seeing LOCAL, news items here?

stillsmoking,,,,
can’t you wait a few seconds til the lights change?what’s your hurry.

To get away from the pollution in the bowl

hahahhah Yeahhhh I know… lame excuse

Yesss a long merge lane would be great there.. They shoulda put Super Store in CH.. Easier access and more room..

They need to lower the MERGE sign in CH at the intersection.. Sits so high people don’t SEE it.. Or add another one halfway down closer to the ground.. Think that sign was meant for people in trucks.. :)

VestedInterest so you are a fan of the UN a bloated, corrupted ineffectual organisation of which the IPP a political arm not scientific, is part of. Since that wack job Kerry endorsees this non factual report you must be a John Kerry, a false self proclaimed Vietnam hero, fan.

Here are some facts about that report, might make your head explode.

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate

How come there has been no warming for over 15 years, goes against all computer models? How come the arctic was not ice free this summer as predicted by some so called esteemed scientists? How come the Northwest passage never really opened this year? Do you know 22 vessels where trapped the non existent ice.

How come if sea level was supposed to be dramatically rising I can still stand on the same rock in Horseshoe Bay as I did 60 years ago when I was a little rugrat?

I can refute you all day. Maybe the Citizens acclaimed science columnist could attempt to help you out. I will be ready to pounce.

Gus the new Hydro building I believe you are looking at the back of the warehouse shops. All the various hydro departments are being combined into one location. Oh the building is functional not glitter like the cop shop.

The Citizen science columnist just ran a series of biased columns about DDT. He drank from the goblet of Rachel Carson.

DDT has been much maligned from poor biased science. Carson left out a lot of details in her refuted book.

Because of unscientific banning of DDT over 50 million have died from malaria. For those who believe in population control in poor countries they may say what is the problem.

Here is an informational link

http://junkscience.com/1999/07/26/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/

I attended the Evening in Pink on Sept.21st. I would like to congratulate Monica and her Volunteers on a very successful night. It is nice to see the young people helping out with the event and also out there getting donations for the silent auction. The only downside was the music which was too loud and you could not understand a word she was singing.

Re: BC Hydro’s new building

It sure would be nice to see them landscape the grounds at this new building. Looks terrible right now. Maybe they could have used the $1,000,000 in bonus cheques for this project instead.

I would rather see Hydro in that building instead of the Taj Mahal of a cop shop we have now. Holy crap. Wish I was a cop. Pretty fancy place to take criminals etc.

seamutt, what branch of science are you educated in?

“How come if sea level was supposed to be dramatically rising I can still stand on the same rock in Horseshoe Bay as I did 60 years ago when I was a little rugrat”

Who knows. How big is the rock? How much of the rock is sticking out of the water today compared to how much was sticking out 60 years ago? Have you taken measurements? Were your instruments calibrated to measure differences in fractions of millimetres? Did you test the differences at the same time to account for tides, seasonal fluctuations, etc? Are you using the same definition of “dramatic” as everyone else?

NMG, you are assuming that seamutt knows what science is. LOL

Industrial metal siding and exposed concrete block. Yes, that is 1960s functional. We see them all over the place in old light industrial districts.

I guess the best way to describe the architectural style is 1960s industrial retro. LOL

I do grant them that the upkeep will be much easier than the wood exteriors appearing on all sorts of commercial buildings. Basically it will look the same 40 years from now as it does today. – uninspiring.

I believe they are tearing the old brick building down.

The brick, btw, also lasted 40+ years …. and the brick has not even turned past the teenage years of brick lifecycle.

But this not Toronto. Brick masons are a rare breed in this part of the world.

BC Lib-Cons are under criminal investigation for the ethnic outreach scandal and have delayed sitting of the legislature.

The Conservatives have a number of senators under criminal investigation, and more recently a Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro faces 4 criminal charges of fraud, and they have delayed sitting of parliament.

With our pathetic city mayor and council we now have a trifecta sweep of dysfunction at every political level possible… have a good weekend everyone ;-D

Seamutt,
You’re a little defensive aren’t you. I did not state anywhere who or what I believe. I just though you might be interested in what the article had to say. Since you have an open mind and all.

“I can refute you all day. Maybe the Citizens acclaimed science columnist could attempt to help you out. I will be ready to pounce.”

Well, I guess you told me huh?
I merely posted a link. Who’s the “wack job” here?

VestedInterest sorry I took your showing the link the wrong way. I thought it was a criticism towards me considering the political statement of that release.

A good atricle by Tom Fletcher which highlights the absurdity of the anti-smart meter crowd:

http://www.merrittherald.com/blog/regulators-reading-on-smart-meters/

VestedInterest, you need to understand that seamut’s global warming “denier” belief system is being threatened.

Deniers are a minuscule minority, so he does not have much support. Also consider the overwhelming evidence that continues to confirm global warming exists and that it is anthropogenic in nature (human caused). You presented him with even more evidence today, something that would serve to perhaps cast doubt about his denier belief system.

I can see why that would upset him, but he is following a predictable course of action that all deniers of the truth take.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” – Arthur Schopenhauer

seamut has yet to reach that third and final stage regarding the truth about man made global warming… right seamut?

rcmp building —- double ugly to me but I see it received an award the other day. I guess I am out of touch.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” – Arthur Schopenhauer”

Every conspiracy theorist uses this as a lame line of defense. I’ll bet Mr. Schopenhauer would be disappointed to see people misusing his quote this way.

NMG looks like the IPPC could use you to measure sea level since all they can use is computer models and not real world data.

That rock location is near Sewell’s marina. The rock s barely above high tide. Yes I know tides vary and I know tides having been around and worked on oceans most of my life. It has not disappeared. Yes sea level rise since the LIA is measured in millimeters.

Here is some sea level information for you.

http://notrickszone.com/2011/02/16/a-level-look-at-sea-levels/

What branch of science is Gore educated in?

What branch of science is Rajendra Kumar Pachauri educated in. Do you know who he is?

Hows your science knowledge Gus. Got to do more than just read headlines.

bornandbred do you really think Hydro will leave the land looking like that? It is a construction zone with temporary parking.

So People#1 you believe all warming is anthropogenic and no other cause, not very scientific. So what about all other times when it was much warmer and man had not even showed up yet.

Hey what about the Roman and Medieval warm periods which was warmer than today, before man even contributed to any significant C02.

Hey how come that great Canadian hero Suzuki with five kids says man is cooking the earth and he cannot even answer basic climate questions. Oh the five kids part if you don’t get it, he believes overpopulation is destroying the world. So you can’t have money or kids but he can.

Come on People#1 refute something I have posted?

Hey how come the earth has not warmed in over 15 years according to the five main bases of measurements. Do you even know what they are?

So you say there is no natural warming? Oh you will be hard pressed to find a sceptic, denier is a offensive term used by those with no argument, That does not say man has not had some contribution. The question is how much or how little. Hell researches don’t even have a clue how much natural input there is or isn’t let alone figure out mans contribution.

Check this post http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate

Anything you can refute.

Do not read this if squeamish. It is about the torture of victims in the Kenya mall siege. Says it all about the terrorists.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2434278/Kenya-mall-attack-torture-claims-emerge-soldiers-Eyes-gouged-bodies-hooks-fingers-removed.html

I, and most everyone else on this discussion board, do not claim to be an expert in climatology like you seamut.

I choose to believe NASA scientists and 97% of the worlds climatologists over an armchair sceptic like you any day of the week!

Stop embarrassing yourself!

Gus your post of 9:47 today. Yes the merge lane from Ferry to Hwy 97 south is very short, I travel this 3-4 times per week. What I have noticed however is that the vehicles traveling in the right lane most will move over to the left lane if they can, so merging I have found is not a problem.

Ah sheeple#1, your the embarrassment. Seamut raises valid points. He is far from a “miniscule minority”. When the “Gores” of the world rant about the science being settled and any sceptic as a flat earther, you know this needs scrutiny.

These scientists have been caught cooking data, withholding evidence, etc. There models have been out by miles. Remember these clowns that predicted a a record hurricane season when it turned out to be the tamest in decades? Its clear that these scientist know the science is far from settled, why don’t you sheepl#1

@ dow7500; Of course a pro-BIG OIL mouth piece like yourself would be set against science and side with the global warming deniers.

Just like Big Tobacco in the 70’s where the industry “denied” a link between the use of their product and lung cancer.

Now it is BIG OIL’s turn to “deny” a link between the use of their products (CO2 intensive fossil fuels) and global warming. This is just history repeating itself.

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://bradleydibble.authorsxpress.com/files/Global-Warming-Deniers.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bradleydibble.authorsxpress.com/2013/08/16/climate-change-deniers-honoured/&h=370&w=499&sz=54&tbnid=qc66UwOaqfS48M:&tbnh=128&tbnw=173&zoom=1&usg=__ney-B-apLxjJRTGqWuSPyApe-yM=&docid=eeaXX9SQsxyINM&sa=X&ei=NidGUv-tCqa6yQHkj4CIDA&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAw

So what branch of science are you educated in again seamutt? I didn’t see it in your post, but forgive me if I missed it. I’m being genuine here. I’d really like to know your credentials in regards to such a complex subject.

Oh, and by the way dow7500, you start your comment off with the use of “your”, it should have been “you’re” as in “you are”. But don’t let the proper use of the English language get in your way!

dow7500:”These scientists have been caught cooking data, withholding evidence, etc.”

I sure wish people would be as sceptical of scientists who condone adding a certain chemical substance to PG’s tap water supply.

Does anyone have a card table from BBO Poker Tables? They are purchased online. I would like to look at one in person before I order one. (They look good on the computer screen.) Otherwise I will have to go to Vancouver and see what they got at their warehouse. I went to a review website and all of the good reviews kinda sounded like they were written by George the guy who does the you-tube videos of the tables. Ha Ha I am probably just being paranoid about that.

I figured you was an English teacher not a science teacher.

“The extremely COOL Arctic summer has resulted in the polar icecap growing by 60% this year!!!”

Growing? ….. in area, in depth, in volume?

As compared to what as the baseline? 2011? 2001? 1991?

Growth is relative. The shorter the frequency, the more spikes there will be in data such as that …..

Without identifying the relationship, the whole thing is meaningless.

When chunks of glaciers fall off that are many thousand years old and float away as icebergs to melt on their journey to the south, and then get replaced by several feet deep winter ice which melts again when the weather gets warm, that is not permanent area growth of an icecap. We need to be a bit more precise if we what to talk science and not just table talk at an afternoon kaffeeklatsch.

“I, and most everyone else on this discussion board, do not claim to be an expert in climatology like you seamut.

I choose to believe NASA scientists and 97% of the worlds climatologists over an armchair sceptic like you any day of the week!

Stop embarrassing yourself!”

That’s funny I never said I am an expert but I have never seen you refute any thing I have posted except for school yard name calling. Oh the 97% of scientists that has long been refuted, of the more than 14000 scientists polled after study it is only 47 scientists believed man only warming.

Gus Gus Gus the arctic was supposed to be ice free this summer a claim by some scientists. Gus the volume of ice in the Antarctic is growing that seems to be somewhat permanent. Did you know that the Athabasca glacier spits out wood, where did that come from. used to be forest there at one time.

NMG why do I have to be a scientist but Gore who has made hundreds of millions promoting the scam doesn’t. NMG you there, hello, hello.

So folks please tell me the utopia the earth is supposed t be in?

The IPPC admit no warming for the last 15 years and they do not know why. But then say it will keep warming, have faith, just believe us. We are supposed to go with that, really.

Of course they will say that because there is hundreds of billions at stake. If they had said no problem hundreds of billions would go poof, research grants poof, huge subsidies to wind and solar power, poof. Those subsidies are ending anyhow and that industry is collapsing. Taxes, poof. Control, poof.

NMG did you find out who Rajendra Kumar Pachauri is yet, and his background. Would you call him an authority?

Hundreds of billions spent and no firm science on climate. All that money spent and they can’t say why no warming despite increasing C02. Their much referenced models did not predict that. Some of these scientist where predicting another ice age in the early seventies, that did not work out so they moved onto warming.

No refuting of what I posted eh, just name calling.

Here is something that will make some of your eyes roll. For you anti Harper types and plant fertilizer is bad for us types, C02 climbed during the Liberal watch and is decreasing under Harpers watch even after dumping that Kyoto bs.

I can see heads exploding now.

Peole#1 here is your 97%, care to refute or only call names

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/icing-the-hype/cooks_97_consensus_disproven_by_a_new_peer_reviewed_paper_showing_major_mat/

seamut states; “Oh the 97% of scientists that has long been refuted, of the more than 14000 scientists polled after study it is only 47 scientists believed man only warming.”

Thats funny, here is the authoritative source that says you are WRONG!

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

seamut verses NASA, hmm.. which one should we believe… LMAO :D

Thanks Bill. your link wasn’t the book I was looking for but I found it anyways. Its odd last week when I tried to locate it on Amazon it didn’t come up in any of my searches and the American Amazon wouldn’t ship to Canada. But I just ordered a copy and should be here in a few days.

I wanted to find out more about that Lansky character and how he controlled the mob and how it relates to JFK.

http://www.amazon.ca/Murder-Inc-The-Story-Syndicate/dp/0306804751/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Speaking of merging. I had a guy earlier in the week on Highway 16 heading east at the Blackwater merge. The guy with a N on the back of his pickup with highway priority stopped (complete stop on highway) in the highway lane to let the car in the merge lane go in front of him… damn near caused a huge pileup.

Seen another guy today driving down the highway with his box full of garbage blowing out onto the road as he speed by. That kind of stuff really bugs me… he had to see it.

On a more positive note one sure notices when outside of PG that our neighboring town take a lot of pride in their communities… driving through most of them its hard to see any garbage what-so ever this year. Its good to see.

Seamutt, I would be interested on your thoughts of ocean acidification. To me that is the real threat more so than global warming. Apparently the carbon chemically reacts with the ocean raising acidification that weakens crustations and skeletons of fish… opening up the ocean for a take over by jelly fish… they say its getting to unprecedented levels.

To me if we kill the oceans, then we are all at risk.

“NMG why do I have to be a scientist”

You don’t. Heck, why does anyone need to be a scientist anymore? Don’t they know that everything is on the Internet now?

LONDON (Reuters) – A large freighter completed a voyage through the hazardous Arctic Northwest Passage for the first time this week, showing the potential for cutting shipment times and costs as global warming opens new routes.

The 75,000 deadweight-tonne Nordic Orion, built in 2011 by a Japanese shipyard, left the Canadian Pacific port of Vancouver in early September and is scheduled to arrive in the Finnish port of Pori on October 7, according to AIS shipping data.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Big_freighter_traverses_Northwest_Passage_for_first_time.html?cid=37000458

———————-

Interesting find on the Swiss site gus linked to. I think its too early for Canada to be allowing super panamax ships through the northwest passage.

Interesting read, thanks for the link Eagleone. Wonder how much seamutt, dow7500, and JB will appreciate the article?

Strange though I didn’t read about that in Canadian media either. A story about Canadian coal shipped from Vancouver through the Northwest passage as the first of the Super Panamax ships to make the crossing… and not a peep from Canada’s media?

Eagleone and People#1, a perfect pair.

The Canadian media has been “Harperized”.

You know what really throws me? The whole concept that our fossil fuel carbon emissions have been causing global warming, which is melting the arctic ice cap. As the ice melts and recedes, it is opening up new areas for Canada, Russia and the US to explore for guess what?… yup more oil and gas reserves.

How insane is that??? I though we were the smartest species on this planet, yet we seem h*ll bent on pushing this planet to a point where even we cannot live on it.

Yeah, sometimes I just shake my head…

Eagle here ya go

. It is Interesting to note that we somehow have an accurate measurement of ocean acidity from 200 years ago when the apparatus to measure pH was only invented in 1924 and it wasn’t conceived as a measurement until 1909. It should be impossible to conclude within .1 pH unit the actual oceanic pH 200 years ago.

2. The maximum possible change from atmospheric CO2 pre industrial to today is less than .001 pH units, it is thus impossible to measure

3. Even if we could measure .001 pH units there are plenty of questions on the accuracy and calibration techniques associated with the measurement

3. It is impossible for CO2 to deplete carbonate ions in solution

4. Rivers and freshwater lakes are more susceptible to carbonic acid from atmospheric CO2, so why are we worried about the oceans?

5. It is essentially chemically and biologically impossible for carbonate dependent organisms to suffer from CO2 increases

6. Carbonic acid is not the same as hydrochloric or acetic acid.

7. pH from carbonic acid tells us nothing about the CO2/Carbonate system

8. There have been no experiments to demonstrate harm, only hypothesis and models.

9. The experimental framework for testing carbonate organisms with increasing CO2 is easy, yet unperformed

10. The organisms most susceptible to ocean acidification from CO2 evolved at a time when concentrations were 15 times higher than today.

11. Ocean acidification means nothing if the rate at which CaCO3 is being produced exceeds the rate at which carbonic acid consumes it.

12. The buffer capacity of the ocean is huge and incorporates carbonic acid, further demonstration of CO2 overwhelming this buffer is needed.

About these ads

One ship, wow be still my heart. Hey look up the USS Manhattan an oil tanker that sailed the passage in 69. Nothing new here move on.

People and Eagle you guys are too easy, Nite nite.

Gus – rather than just typing away out of ignorance in your reply to my comment, why don’t you actually READ the article that I posted the link to?
It actually answers every single one of your questions.
Your post proves that you just like to comment, but not actually put any thought into it.
How hard can it be to read the article first?

Jetstream …. rather than typing away out of ignorance in your reply to my response, read the questions I asked. They are NOT answered in the rag that you cite.

Learn from this, if you want to, and go to the source of the information. In this case that would be the scientists who make it their job to look at these phenomena using the scientific method, not the method of some reporters who like to sell papers through sensationalism for simpletons who know no better and like to show off that they are smarter than some career scientist.

Here is the NASA site.
http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/arctic-sea-ice-minimum-in-2013-is-sixth-lowest-on-record

From that:
1.This year’s sea ice extent is substantially higher than LAST YEAR’S RECORD LOW MINIMUM. On Sept.16, 2012, Arctic sea ice reached its smallest extent ever recorded by satellites at 1.32 million square miles (3.41 million square kilometers). That is about half the size of the average minimum extent from 1981 to 2010.

2.This summer’s minimum is still the sixth lowest extent of the satellite record and is 432,000 square miles (1.12 million square kilometers) lower than the 1981-2010 average, roughly the size of Texas and California combined.

3.”I was expecting that this year would be higher than last year,” said Walt Meier, a glaciologist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. “There is always a tendency to have an uptick after an extreme low; in our satellite data, the Arctic sea ice has never set record low minimums in consecutive years.”

4.Look at the image with the yellow line which depicts Arctic sea ice on Sept. 12, 2013, the day before NSIDC estimated sea ice extent hit its annual minimum, with a line showing the 30-year average minimum extent in yellow.

5.The remaining Arctic sea ice cover is much thinner on average than it was years ago. (that goes to one of my questions)

6.Further to that, satellite imagery, submarine sonar measurements, and data collected from NASA’s Operation IceBridge, an airborne survey of polar ice, indicate that the Arctic sea ice thickness is as much as 50 percent thinner than it was in previous decades, going from an average thickness of 12.5 feet (3.8 meters) in 1980 to 6.2 feet (1.9 meters) in recent years. The thinning is due to the loss of older, thicker ice, which is being replaced by thinner seasonal ice.

7.Most of the Arctic Ocean used to be covered by multiyear ice, or ice that has survived at least two summers and is typically 10 to 13 feet (3 to 4 meters) thick. This older ice has declined at an even faster rate than younger ice and is now largely relegated to a strip along the northern coast of Greenland. The rest of the Arctic Ocean is dominated by first year ice, or ice that formed over the previous winter and is only 3 to 7 feet (1 to 2 meters) thick.

Some may understand some of that. Some may chose not to understand some of that because it does not fit their hypothesis. That comment fits both sides to the argument.

So Jetstream, learn how to read, learn how not to attack people, especially without knowing how they actually work and what care they might take to assure themselves that they read all information for content and credibility. Do I give NASA more credibility than some sensationalistic rag on the internet that write articles for gullible people?

YOU BETCHA!!!!!

A handy graph showing the extent of the ice from 1979 to 2013.

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Screen_shot_2013-09-17_at_12.58.50_PM.png

It is well known that one cannot make predictions over short periods. Trend lines will only show up over many cycles. Individual cycles will have spikes as the ice cover did this year.

The same goes with air quality, which is very much dependent on weather conditions, fatalities in an industrial sector such as transportation, etc. etc.

You think there is a change towards improvement, the trend looks that way for 5 cycles, 10 cycles, all of the sudden a cycle will spike up or down for once … then happens again the next cycle, skips a cycle, and then again.

The choosing of a meaningful number of cycles when reporting tendencies is extremely important.

But why should a writer for a rag of a news service even want to allude to that? It takes away the sensationalism and is thus counterproductive to the objectives of the rag.

Posting the original link by jetstream so that anyone who may still be reading this does not have to find it.

I am also making it clickable (instructions of how to do that are below on this page, Jetstream)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/Global-cooling-Arctic-ice-caps-grows-60-global-warming-predictions.html

Anyone who does not believe me that the questions I ask are not answered, please read the article yourself and determine on your own who actually read the article, jetstream or me.

Here is how the article ends:

“Professor Curry said the ice’s behaviour over the next five years would be crucial, both for understanding the climate and for future policy. ‘Arctic sea ice is the indicator to watch,’ she said.”

So, in her opinion, a 5 year cycle would be long enough to make a prediction of whether a reversal is taking place. That sounds like the start of some reasonable measure.

Remember folks, those people who do retroactive studies are much more likely to be accurate than those who do predictive studies.

Remember, PG was supposed to hit a population in excess of 200,000 by now according to statisticians looking at urban growth in the mid 1970s.

The mistake they made? Looking at trends over too short a period and having insufficient understanding of what causes city populations to change over time.

Oh cool…..it’s still Friday.

And still Friday……..
yay, time saved, I can catch up on what I missed yesterday, or can I?
metalman.

Maybe it is next Friday ….. ;-)

Wow so we have a bunch of global warming deniers repeatedly stating temperature records and research over the past 100 years is no where near long enough to prove global warming exists.

Yet jetstream makes referral to a UK Daily Mail news article that has a global warming sceptic professor’s opinion:

“Professor Curry said the ice’s behaviour over the next five years would be crucial, both for understanding the climate and for future policy. ‘Arctic sea ice is the indicator to watch,’ she said.”

So 100 hundred years of climate measurements is not enough but the next 5 years is??? Typical denier hypocrisy!

I do not recall one mention of the recent price drop of gasoline(close to 20 cents a liter) on the Friday free for all? Any possibility COSTCO had something to do with it?

People#1 … you are just as bad as jetstream, seamutt and others. You simply do not understand the methodology and meaning of time series analysis and determination of trends.

From what I can see from the NASA information, the trends respecting the seasonal growth and shrinkage of the north polar icecap have been a reduction of the summer area and even more so the volume of the summer ice cap. Last year was an anomaly, and it is quite proper to take a period of something like 5 or 10 years to determine whether that trend will continue or not.

The facts will speak for themselves over that time, just as the facts speak for themselves based on the last 30+ years.

To take one year and compare it to the previous, however, is true stupidity. That is especially so given that 2012 summer ice was the lowest point area reached in the last 30+ year.

No, COSTCO had absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, if it had not been COSTCO, the price would have dropped even further.

And if you believe that, I have some land I think you might want to buy in the Old Crow flats. ;-)

People#1.

To me the important issue is not whether global warming exists. It does and as many point out, it is a cyclical phenomenon which has existed for millions of years, long before humans inhabited the earth, and most certainly much longer than humans, in significant numbers, started burning fossil fuels and domestic cattle started expelling greenhouse gas. :-)

One of several question surrounding the warming/cooling cycle is whether the amount of greenhouse gases created due to human activities has a significant influence on global warming.

From the link posted by Jetstream comes this statement:

“The Northwest Passage from the Atlantic to the Pacific has remained blocked by pack-ice all year. More than 20 yachts that had planned to sail it have been left ice-bound and a cruise ship attempting the route was forced to turn back.”

Here is a report of a coal carrier going through the passage:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/27/northwest-passage-crossed-by-first-cargo-ship-the-nordic-orion-heralding-new-era-of-arctic-commercial-activity

“An ice-strengthened sea freighter has become the first bulk carrier to traverse the Northwest Passage through Canada’s Arctic waters, heralding a new era of commercial activity in the Arctic.

“Travelling with a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker, the 75,000 deadweight-tonne Nordic Orion left Vancouver on Sept. 17 carrying 15,000 metric tons of coal. It is currently off Nuuk, Greenland, where it let a Canadian Arctic adviser off board.

“The Northwest Passage is more than 1,000 nautical miles shorter than the traditional shipping route through the Panama Canal and will save time, fuel and reduce carbon dioxide emissions,” said Nordic Bulk Carriers, the Danish owner of the ship.

“The company said the Arctic route allowed it to load the commercial bulk carrier with 25% more cargo than would be possible through the shallower Panama Canal, where freighters must sail higher in the water.

“The Nordic Orion’s route will shave an estimated four days of travel time — worth up to US$200,000 in savings — when it reaches its destination, the Finnish port of Pori, on Oct. 7 and delivers the coal to Ruukki Metals, a Finnish steel producer.”

Seems the Daily Mail report was a bit too early.

Yup….it’s still Friday….

gus states; “People#1 … you are just as bad as jetstream, seamutt and others. You simply do not understand the methodology and meaning of time series analysis and determination of trends.”

A rookie mistake concentrating on the rate of ice volume over a 5 or 10 year trend, instead grasshopper we must ask ourselves what is causing the ice cap to melt in the first place, it is here in the rising global temperatures over a 100 year trend that we find our answer.

This is the best interactive chart out there on rising global temperatures, move your mouse over the last blinking dot, what you read will surprise you, and may help you with your doubts about anthropogenic global warming.

http://climate.nasa.gov/interactives/warming_world

@ middle finger; I appreciate the folks at 250 news have left a couple of discussion threads open for comment longer than is usual.

As a result, myself and others were able to do additional research to uncover the facts and truths on the important topics of global warming and unsustainable Natural Gas extraction rates.

Personally, through research, I have learned some things, as I hope others have in reading my, and others comments.

Well okay People#1… I believe the ocean temperature would be a good indicator of what is happening.

Is that better ?

What is happening and what has happened is the easy part. The only thing we have to make sure to verify that is that the methods used to determine are actually picking up accurate data.

I suspect we are getting relatively good at that.

The difficult parts are:

1. to determine WHY past event changes happened, such as annual temperature fluctuations of air and water temperatures

2. the determination of what future event changes WILL be.

Those two are the contentious areas which have created a number of different future scenarios supported by different scientists with different opinions based on their understanding.

I am not a climatologist and do not need to have an opinion on the matter because there is not a single thing I, or the people immediately around me, can do about those things.

I find the topic of interest, but my time is better spent applying my knowledge in other areas more meaningful to me and producing more meaningful change.

“A rookie mistake concentrating on the rate of ice volume over a 5 or 10 year trend, instead grasshopper we must ask ourselves what is causing the ice cap to melt in the first place, it is here in the rising global temperatures over a 100 year trend that we find our answer.”

You made the rookie mistake to show me a graph which has a time span of over 120 years and primarily shows the rising temp trends. A longer time period is needed in order to present a credible theory of why change is happening. In fact, there are at least 40 data points of wither low or high temps presented without explanation.

Let us focus on those, if we think we know the others. In fact, one of those for which there is no explanation could be masked by a wrong determination of ocean current and volcano activity.

BTW, the data points which are highlighted to attribute them to volcano activity and ocean current temperature changes are extremely selective. If you look at ALL the annual data points you should notice that the fluctuations of .4 Celsisu

Sorry .. computer acting up

We are coming out of an ice age, so what! 10,000 years in the grand scheme of things is a blink in time. Will the earth get warmer? Yup! Will it get colder yup! Has human activity played a part in the warming? Some say yah some say nah. Does Mother Earth care about what we do? Nope, she will correct herself with or without us.

Does mother earth correct herself like this NoWay?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/aug/06/starved-polar-bear-record-sea-ice-melt

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/climate-change-leaves-some-hudson-bay-polar-bears-starving-1.1204260

While I must admit these bears are a lot bigger… they really are our canaries in a coal mine. gus can go on about his data and trends, but when global warming causes rapid changes in habitat which threaten’s an entire species with extinction… perhaps we should take that as evidence as well?

Anyone remember “acid rain”? A big concern, particularly over in Europe in the 1980’s. Entire lakes were devoid of life, entire forests were dying, statues in town and city squares were eroding at an alarming pace.

While strict european environment regulations eventually brought acid rain under control, it was the first time we could demonstrate that human activity could affect the climate on a continental basis.

Now 30 years later, should we be surprised that we can affect the climate on a global basis?

“Anyone remember “acid rain”? A big concern, particularly over in Europe in the 1980’s.”

I come from eastern Canada. Anyone who does and lived there in the 1960s (way before 1980) would remember the concern about acid rain with the USA and Canada accusing each other of not taking the care of the problem adequately.

The cause of acid rain can be many fold. While sulfur is being removed from many fossil fuels, the increasing level of CO2 in the atmosphere apparently is a new concern.

Acid rain and climate change are two different issues. Acid rain caused by industrial pollution, and we know for sure that is a major factor, is quite different from anthropogenic climate change and the debate of how much impact there actually is.

[url]http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112663929/reign-of-acid-rain-is-far-from-over[/url

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112663929/reign-of-acid-rain-is-far-from-over

“when global warming causes rapid changes in habitat which threaten’s an entire species with extinction”

Not the first time that has happened. While some may have an attachment to them, let us just say that mother nature has put us on this earth for a purpose as she has with polar bears and woodpeckers.

Who are we to judge her wisdom and work against her wishes?

Let the universe unfold as it should.

“gus can go on about his data and trends”

not my data …. others have generated it just as others have generated the opinions you put forward.

we are just the peanut gallery whispering to each other what idiots those people who are bringing forward their bags of selective “facts” are.

Looking in on that charade is “mother nature” watching the action saying to herself what a wonderful game she has created to satisfy her macabre interests.

“gus can go on about his data and trends”

“not my data …. others have generated it just as others have generated the opinions you put forward.”

gus, I have read your comments on so many numerous topics. You tend to be quite academic in your approach and responses, just thought I would point out to you that global warming is more than just trends and data, there are real world consequences to global warming and our inaction to address it. So I used the polar bears as the canary in the coal mine example.

http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/kids/stories/animalsnature/polar-bears-threatened/

My hope springs eternal that all the sheeple will one day wake up and take action. Yet on the other hand perhaps it is up to our kids who read national geographic that will take the difficult choices and actions we as adults refuse to take today…

“there are real world consequences to global warming”

There are real world consequences to Henry Ford and others to have begun the mass production of automobiles.

There are likely just as many consequences to the Wright Brothers finally getting a winged craft off the ground.

There are real world consequences to everything humans do, just as there are real world consequences to the sun shining on this earth and influencing virtually an infinite number of processes involving animate and inanimate objects.

We are not infallible. We seek knowledge.

Finally, I believe in the saying “a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.”

Believe me, when it comes to knowledge, we who inhabit this site all have very little knowledge about most things. It is fun to debate for some of us, but nothing shall come of it other than debate, so do not get your hopes up, locust.

“You tend to be quite academic in your approach and responses”

Yes, that is because I am educated and learned how to apply science and the analysis/synthesis process to solve practical problems.

I am made aware of a problem and I work by myself or with others on a team to solve it. It has given me a lot of satisfaction to create something that people can use to improve the way they do things and the way they live.

Hopefully you do something that helps people around you as well, people#1.

If all human activity stopped today would it stop global warming? Maybe slow it down but it wouldn’t stop it. The release of human activity co2 into the atmosphere compared to natural co2 released is miniscule. Where one species declines another prospers! Seen any woolie mammoths lately people #1, were they the old canaries?

When we ‘net out’ Canada’s per capita emissions with its per capita natural absorption of CO2, Canada absorbs a net 0.22t/yr.

When we sell oil/bitumen/natural gas/coal and even biomass pellets outside of Canada, we have spent CO2 in removing those fuels and transporting them.

The only countries which are net absorption countries are Australia, much of Central Arica, Brazil and Canada. All other countries are net generators of CO2.

Given that, I can see Canada position, as taken by Harper, as being a strong position to take.

Why? Because it costs loss of efficiency and lots of energy to have such a large country with such a low population base.

Just another side to the decisions which have to be made to live together on a planet which is getting smaller by the day.

It is not easy to play in the same sandbox as all the other kids in the neighbourhood.

“Then in 1970 the U.S. Congress imposed acid emission regulations through the Clean Air Act, strengthened two decades later in 1990. By the 2000s, sulfate and nitrate in precipitation had decreased by some 40 percent.”

The above quote is from gus’s redorbit.com linked article. If we can reduce sulcate and nitrate in rain by 40% through regulation, can we not reduce GHG emissions by as much as well?

The more I read NoWay and gus’s comments on this subject the more I realize it will be up to our children to belly up to the bar and make the difficult decisions and take the hard actions to reduce global warming!

Let our kids save the world because the adults are not willing.

The adults are not willing in the countries which have traditionally had an abundance of today’s fossil fuels.

There is a reason why gasoline is cheap here and why some other countries with oil and gas even subsidize the cost nationally while taking other countries to the cleaners. Remember the original reason for OPEC.

There is a reason why countries in Europe and Asia tax the hell out of gasoline users. They know that they have a limited amount and that the population has to be weaned off it and other sources developed. As a result they have improved extracting energy from non conventional sources and they are the “experts” in that field as a result.

Those countries plan on much longer horizons than the quarterly reports of USA and thus Canadian companies.

In my view, we have it wrong.

But, as others say on here … time will tell. Humans are survivors. Some have brawn and are lazy, other have brains and are effective “workers”.

Remember the game of life on earth continues to be survival of the fittest.

Who will that be in the long term, not the short term?