Building For Use, Great Fixer Upper
Saturday, October 12, 2013 @ 4:47 AM
P.G. RCMP Detachment Building future not certain post 2015 Games – photo 250News
Prince George, B.C. – What does the future hold for the old RCMP building on Brunswick Street once the city detachment moves to its new digs on Victoria?
Will it be sold to a private investor? Will it remain in the City’s property inventory and say, leased out to a non-profit group, or groups? Will it be torn down and the property used for retail space or whatever purpose across the street from the brand spanking new Delta Hotel complex? There likely are as many suggestions as there are readers of this article. One thing is certain……Prince George city council will be determining the future of that property. Which council? Possibly the group voted into office in the 2014 civic election.
In the meantime, it appears the old police building is going to be a busy place once the Mounties saddle up their ponies and head over to 4th and Victoria. The City’s Manager of Real Estate Services, Ian Wells, says “Our plan right now is to use that as a facility for the Canada Winter Games, so they’ll be the main tenant in that building and they’ll be ramping up to that as stages go.” Wells says the Games people can use the entire building or portions of it. And he says they will, in all probability, be using the building right through to the completion of the 2015 games.
Mike Davis is Director of Marketing and Communications with the 2015 Canada Winter Games. He says “It is a building that we are looking at and assessing just how we’re going to use it. The areas that we’re thinking of using it for are the Games Management Operations Centre, our Mission Centre or maybe our Volunteer Centre. We’re still in our planning so we have not finalized that yet.”
The Management Operations Centre would be the area for service departments including transportation, security and environmental issues. The Volunteer Centre could be the main hub for the 4500 volunteers working at the games as well as processing, registration and accreditation. The Mission Centre would be used by the mission staff sent by each province and territory competing at the games.
Davis says sites other than the RCMP building are being looked at as well. “We need the space of some of these facilities and we have a few ideas so we’re really just looking through our options right now. We are looking to see how the venue and location will affect some of these programs so we are just finalizing our plans in terms of all our needs and are hoping to confirm those very soon.” He expects those decisions to be made before the year is out. “I would say probably within the next month or two we’ll know exactly how we’ll be using our venues.”
Over at City Hall Ian Wells says “the (police) building needs some major upgrades as we indicated when we were moving the RCMP. It needs a new heating system, a new plumbing system, electrical upgrades so there’s substantial upgrades that are needed.” Davis says “the building has to be functional and operational and if there is work that needs to be done to make sure that happens then it will be done before us getting in there.” That brings up the question of who will be responsible for any upgrades. Davis says “that’s a good question. I’m not sure if that would be a City thing or a Games thing. I don’t know that at this time.” Asked whether the City will be undertaking any upgrades of that building on behalf of the 2015 Games, Wells says “no we won’t.”
Davis says if the Games organizers decide to use the police building “I think that if we were to be in there we would definitely be utilizing the whole space. We have equipment that needs storage, sporting equipment and equipment of other types as well. But it definitely serves a variety of purposes for us.” Regarding occupancy he says “we would move in as soon as we could and would be there right through the games and perhaps after through a transition period.”
The City’s Public Safety and Civic Facilities Director, Rob Whitwam, says nailing down a vacancy date for the building is difficult. “That’s a little bit of a moving target right now. It’s going to depend on how things come together. There’s a whole bunch of logistics (at the new RCMP station) that we have been working on and continue to work on, but I suspect it’s probably going to be around the start of December. We’re looking at having them (RCMP) in there before the holidays.”
Whitwam says while his focus has been on getting the new police headquarters built, “there may need to be some assessment done after it’s (the old building) vacated just to see what needs to be done in there, but certainly our focus has been concentrating on the new building and not wanting to spend money in an old building that we’re moving out of and may still continue to function a bit. We’ve been trying to keep it going until we can move out of there.”
So what happens to the old building once the games are history? Wells says “We’ll look at it as a real estate holding and we’ll determine the best way to deal with that, if we’re going to dispose of that asset or how we’re going to do that.” Asked about possible ideas for future use Wells says “we’ll explore all options and council will make the decision." Wells could not say when there will be council discussion on the matter. “Not at this time, no.” Asked if that discussion would take place closer to 2015, he says “yes.”
Initially the discussion about the future of the old police building centered around having groups such as the United Way and Studio 2880 utilizing space there. But again, the cost of repairing the building, constructed in 1972, is now seen as very expensive and perhaps prohibitive.
Comments
All these gas developments in the north seem to be hiding behind the limited liability of a subsidiary corporation. If we are going to allow them to transfer the cost of risk to the tax payer through limited liability subsidiaries, then they should at minimum have their headquarters based in Northern BC.
The old RCMP building might make a good ready made office building for a gas company that wanted to really show its commitment to the North.
That said its an ugly building and to me it just looks like a great location for a grow op. One of those medicinal marijuana start-ups with a secure perimeter and loading dock area. Its built to add floors, so the top floors could be green house style with 15-foot ceilings… call it garden center maybe and give a sort of atrium look to the area. If the building could tap into the community heating system it would be well placed to out compete their competitors on the sustainability eco-weed market.
It would probably never happen, but I think it would good to re-develop that spot into something that would actually attract people downtown. Keep the office space further down Victoria and try and develop that into a retail, services and/or park space.
With the new Delta adjacent to that spot, it could be a very nice area if they complemented that development and the others in that area with something a lot less prison looking, LOL.
Considering all the negative publicity that this building received from the City, and the general public. Ie; Excrement running down the walls, dampness, and mould, etc;, how can they now say that it can be sold??
Perhaps all the negativity was to make a case for building the new police station, and they will now tone down the BS, and try to sell or utilize the building.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they renovated the building (at our cost) for the Winter Games, and then utilized it, even though they argued that it could not be renovated for the police.
Lets sit back and watch the antics on this one. Seems they have already started.
I tend to agree with you, Palopu. It certainly looks that way.
They had better make up their mind quickly, whatever they do. The words in the article from both the city and the Games people do not give me much confidence.
Someone should have done an assessment of the building by now. The question is, is there enough value in the structural system of the building to make a major investment in it to reclad the exterior of the building and redo the plumbing, electrical and mechanical system?
When looking at that, one has to remember that many of those “renovations” are tenant improvements which go on all the time in our community in both the retail and office commercial spaces and we really never consider them, other than the tenants as well as the landlords who will provide some incentives to new tenants with longer term leases.
Look at the recent exterior recladding of the Scotia building. Prior to the that TD building across from it was reclad with new curtain wall. There are rumours around that the RBC building will be reclad as well.
The Scotia building had a considerable interior upgrade over the last 5+ years as well with new elevators, addition of a mechanical ventilation zone, as well as incentives for offices to renovate and meet a higher finishing standard.
Some people take care of their buildings.
I hope someone will take care of our new PAC. I am waiting for the living walls to be planted.
For a simple visualization, look at the old RCMP station reclad with the “stone” used for the Scotia building, replace the main floor with full height windows and an improved entrance and one would never recognize the building for the fortress that it was intended to be to be in case of attack by whoever people thought would attack the “public security” building in Prince George in the early 1970s.
Knock out a few floor slabs as they have done in some other older building to open it up to upper floors and things could start to get interesting.
The main thing is to figure out what use is best. Our downtown is really far too spread out. I could see an interesting restaurant/nightclub development there, given the new hotel across the street. It would also make a good private “arts centre” with studio spaces, gallery store, restaurant/coffee shop and small performance space similar to books and company.
Commonwealth likes deals. Maybe they can turn it into a medical building …
Or maybe we can take a page from the BMO, donate it to UNBC and say, here you go, it is all yours …. ;-)
oops … forgot about CNC …. they need a downtown presence …. their architect can do wonders to the building, just look at the conversion of the original Canadian Tire into the Brink trade building. That was nicely done!
Everybody forget bout the parking??? There now is no more parking for that building
Turn it into low income housing. Get the crazies off the street. If they can’t live there then there is a cabin on the hill for them.
I have to agree with Palopu. This building HAD to be replaced. Or….. were we lied to?
We were lied to, of course we were. It’s really a no brainer. It’s because Canada isn’t a democracy any longer. Been trying to stay this for a while now, but Canada doesn’t want to hear it!
From the above article; “the (police) building needs some major upgrades as we indicated when we were moving the RCMP. It needs a new heating system, a new plumbing system, electrical upgrades so thereâs substantial upgrades that are needed.â
THere is a concept, one that is not well known or understood by our feckless civic leaders, but, predictably, is very pertinent to those whose own resources are utilized in the care of their own possessions…………
MAINTENANCE!!! ( by competent persons )
metalman.
I have to agree with Palopu. This building HAD to be replaced. Or….. were we lied to?
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Cheers
I vote for a nightclub/restaurant/jazz bar type of development. Bring some much needed entertainment options into the downtown for the adult crowd.
And yes, it is rather curious how this building was basically condemned and now it seems to have been brought back to life, LOL!
I don’t trust anyone in charge of anything in Prince George, BC right now! All have proven to be corrupt to the bone. All need to be booted out and retrain some good people, in all areas.
Like a hospital renovation it is nearly impossible to perform any major work while the building is occupied. Once it is unoccupied there is a lot options that can be done to rejuvinate this building. Personally, I could care less if it is reno’s or demo’s… as long as there isn;t another gravel pit in PG. Lets do something with this property. Not a fan of low income housing though, I don’t imagine that will help clean up the area. Seems some of the folks on the other side of Victoria are making an effort to clean up the area and the city should keep it going.
The itch to build a new classy facility needed to be scratched so they totally condemned the old one. Palopu says it so eloquently!
Now, however, it is not that bad after all?
An upgrade here, another one there – voila, it will be a great place after all!
Better open up the walls and ceilings and check for asbestos! Buildings of that vintage often used it in flooring, pipe insulation and other places!
(Just a free of charge hint).
Thats a good point PrinceGeorge, but asbestos will be an issue regardless of reno or demo.
“It needs a new heating system, a new plumbing system, electrical upgrades so thereâs substantial upgrades that are needed.â
“But again, the cost of repairing the building, constructed in 1972, is now seen as very expensive and perhaps prohibitive.”
Now I don’t know what all that means, but it sounds like the building is in very poor shape and perhaps the cost/benefit ratio may be approaching or even surpassing one in terms of refurbishing and selling it. Never mind refurbishing it so that it can be used by non-paying tenants. From that perspective, probably not a good investment idea. Nor does it sound like it’s suitable for housing the 200 odd people that perform a vital 24/7 function for our community. Good thing they’re moving out I guess so a true assessment can be done and the proper decision rendered.
Well first off, who let it get in the shape it is? Why wasn’t there any maintenance done to keep it up to snuff? Who pays or is supposed to pay for the building upkeep?
The new building looks very nice.. Perfect place to house the criminals and cops. We have patients in hallways in the hospital waiting for a bed, but at least the criminals are well looked after.
1972 is right eh. What a flipping waste. Give the place up for a dollar and let some good go into it.
Only pea brains would not spend the money on upgrading the place over the years. Not very good management whatsoever.
“it sounds like the building is in very poor shape”
Actually it is not for a 40 year old building which has not changed use. The ground floor was originally a courtroom with the RCMP upstairs. Around 1977 or so, that courtroom was removed from the building in part because the City expanded into more of the Hart, CH (the large population addition) and South Fort George) thus there would have been an increase in City RCMP and likely a decrease in regional RCMP.
To the best of my knowledge, that was the only renovation/upgrade there was.
Let us take the Canadian Tire store on Central, converted into a trades building. The basic structure was sound – foundation, exterior walls, roof structure, service connections ….. The same goes for the RCMP building.
Trades building needed more washroom than a store, needed different downstream HVAC and lighting configurations, likely insulation upgrades, flooring, ceilings in part, more partitions for offices, storage associated with teaching spaces, etc. and exterior cladding.
That sort of change is done often with commercial structures, not so often with institutional or specialized government services buildings.
So, this building should not be ditched until a professional looks at it and does a few scenarios such as:
1.Sell the property as is
2.Tear down, sell the property
3.Fix property for another civic use
A few scenarios should be compared using net income or net revenue to the City in addition to maximum probable social value to the community, especially enhancement of that part of the downtown.
“Who pays or is supposed to pay for the building upkeep?”
In one way or another the City. The City RCMP detachment is the City Police Force and is paid for by the City.
I doubt there is an asbestos issue with that building. If there were asbestos insulated heating ducts, that should have been removed a long time ago. I doubt there ever was.
The only type of asbestos that may be found in the build is in VAT (Vinyl Asbestos Tile) as in floor tiles. They likely would have been replaced by sheet vinyl by now due to wear.
The asbestos in VAT is encapsulated and, unless extremely worn, is of no real harm. It can be removed relatively easily, not much different than any other glue down sheet flooring.
“We were lied to, of course we were”
Whenever someone writes a technical report such as the usefulness of a building, one has to remember that it is highly likely the report is not an entirely objective one. The reports are geared to the client.
As is most frequently the case, the report likely never went into the residual value of the building in case the RCMP would be housed elsewhere.
Do I get a new car or keep maintaining the old car? Do I get a new car and keep the old car for times I might need a second car.
If I get a new car, what is the resale value of the old car? If it has some value, do I fix it up, increase the asking price in order to sell it more quickly? Or do I sell it as is?
This is not much different.
This building need to encounter a close relationship with a wrecking ball, plain and simple. Structural issues, plumbing issues, electrical issues, leaking floors, asbestos cover piping. It’s done, remove it and sell the land for development. To allow anyone to lease or occupy this building is criminal knowing the extent of the building’s issues and potential health hazards from mold, asbestos, spores etc. They were whining the building was in poor shape and not worth fixing…. Doze it!
If it does have all the problems made public when a decision was made to opt for a brand new RCMP building (no flim flam) then it does need to be razed. Do that and sell the empty lot to the highest bidder!
However, why was it allowed to deteriorate into the claimed decrepit condition which was used as a justification for a new one?
Apparently, that building wasn’t fit for Pigs — but now it’s OK for the city and the games. What a scam — just as bad as the CO2 thing and the IPCC. We should take up arms and repossess this province. The RCMP are the biggest drain on the taxpayers of BC; bar none.
Gus:
“If I get a new car, what is the resale value of the old car?”
Do you really think buildings are comparable to old used cars?? You’re delusional. Does you’re house depreciate every year??
“Does you’re house depreciate every year??”:
Most definitely!!!! If you own a house, and have done so for 20+ years, look at the property value, which has typically gone up, and look at the “improvements” value, which typically goes down.
Unless you have changed your kitchen to something better than laminated plastic (formica, arborite), removed the carpets and replaced them with new carpets, or better still real wood floor (not that plastic chit), replaced windows, furnace, water heater, roofing, added insulation, painted, added a bathroom, and anything else to make it look more like a house built in the last 5 or so years, you improvements will have gone down by 20+%.
Same as the old police station.
The same will happen to the new police station. 30 years down the road it will no longer meet the requirements of the needs of a police force unless it is upgraded along the way.
The realities of buildings.
Do you really think buildings are comparable to old used cars?? You’re delusional. Does you’re house depreciate every year??
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Sorry Big Bore … Gus is right this time … anybody doing building valuations will tell you that houses depreciate over a 50 year period to zero value … unless regular upgrades and maintenance is done … maintenance expenses are forecast at about 2-3% of building value per year (does not property value)
“We should take up arms and repossess this province. The RCMP are the biggest drain on the taxpayers of BC; bar none.”
Big Bore, yup I hear ya there. Thanks for just speaking the truth!
Yup a night club would work well there too. It looks like its becoming more of the entertainment district in town anyways, so probably not a better location for that kind of use.
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