Those that want a PAC form a limited company and sell shares. I AM sure all those that want less government will step right up with there own pocket book, oh wait!

Posted by: seamut on November 18 2013 4:27 AM
Those that want a PAC form a limited company and sell shares. I AM sure all those that want less government will step right up with there own pocket book, oh wait!

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I want less government and I sure as heck don’t want a PAC.

I want BETTER government that is MORE EFFECTIVE and MORE EFFICIENT.

We have received no assistance with THAT from the EXPENSIVE CORE REPORT.

The core report was not part of BETTER government.

And now we hear that the good Mayor wants to try to do what Stolz could not do, become an MP. What a slap in the face to her community!!!!

An example of more effective and efficient would be to find out once and for all, how to plow snow properly.

“An example of more effective and efficient would be to find out once and for all, how to plow snow properly”

Oh, oh, off they go! Another delegation journeying to Korea or Sochi to see how it is done over there!

From the G&M plus “passionate eye”

“We’re told that the Vancouver Winter Games cost about $2-billion. Putin estimated that it would cost $12-billion to stage them in Sochi. That spiralled to $30-billion and is now estimated at $50-billion. Somebody says that “Putin is building a monument to himself.”

I would suggest not going to Sochi ….. they do things differently there … MUCH DIFFERENTLY!!!! ;-)

Plow snow – does this city own snowplows? – the streets on the Hart are horrible – maybe the amount went from 12 cm to 12 feet; I suggest that the city council create a task force for the definition of 12 cm and then with our storm drain upcoming taxes send a delegation to the equator (Africa) to checkout what 12 cm. of snow looks like ( they could be there for awhile).

The PAC Society presentation to-night is to get this project recognized by Council.

The Mayor and Council will support the idea, but state that during these hard financial times, it will probably be a few years before any definitive action can be taken.

This would satisfy the PAC people, who were in effect hired by the City and IPG to promote this venture, and it would allow the Mayor and Council to get through the next election without the aggravation of a PAC.
After the election of course it will be full speed ahead.

This project needs to be on a referendum next year, so that the Citizens get a vote.

Did the citizens vote on the CN Centre?
No

Did the citizens vote for the expansion at the Kin Centres.
No

Did the citizens vote for the Aquatic Centre?
No

Did the citizens vote for the Art Gallery?
No

Did the citizens vote for the Civic Centre?
No

For the Rotary soccer fields?
No

I could go on and on. Why is it that the PAC must have a citizen vote?

What the hell is wrong with this city! We already have the playhouse and civic centre that sit vacant most of the year. Performing arts are unfortunately on a downward spiral. Another stupid idea.

trueblue2… you are incorrect about CN Centre. It went to public referendum in 1993.

The Teresan Gas deal was also put to referendum.

So it is used from time to time.

The Aquatic Centre was on the same referendum as the CN Centre – check your “facts” Pylot.

Sorry Pylot, I should have said trueblue2 – checked my own “facts”!

If I remember correctly, the art gallery and civic centre went to referendum as well and there was a vote for a PAC at that time but it was defeated. The art gallery should have been defeated as well but it went ahead. Some of the money that was supposed to come from private interests was never received so it cost the city more than it was supposed to. When it came time to pay up the “art crowd” that had pledged money had no money. Go figure!!

So why do we not have public records of these referenda?

Courts keep records of past cases.

Libraries keep records of their books.

Cities keep records of their property owners.

Cities keep records of council minutes.

Elections BC keep records of election results.

Why can’t this City keep records of the questions posed at referenda and the outcome of the votes?

So that they can fudge things?????

What exactly was the question that was posed at the time of Discovery Place? I think that goes back over 20 years.

Discovery Place was defeated and the Civic Centre was built. But, I do not recollect whether it was because the existing one was condemned or whether Discovery Place was divided into two components, on passed, the other one did not. Or was it something else?

Just because other important expensive projects did not go to a referendum does not mean that the planned PAC shouldn’t!

It is a luxury item as we already have sufficient entertainment venues! The storm drain system needs more taxpayers money, as does the whole city water infrastructure (one water line break per week), the city streets paving is way behind and needs more money to do some real catching up, the winter games need to be funded, the RCMP new digs need to be paid for, the salaries and wages of RCMP, fire fighters, city staff and workers need to be paid for and possibly increased…no need to go on, even though there is plenty more demand on each and every citizen’s wallet!

Show some respect for those who must pay for this wish list not urgent nice to have if we can afford it thing!

This must be postponed for a time when all the must items have been looked after! To keep asking for the PAC is not realistic at this point in time!

Read Palopu’s comment.

GUS:”And now we hear that the good Mayor wants to try to do what Stolz could not do, become an MP.”

I like it when the week starts out on such a positive note!

Thanks!

“Performing arts are unfortunately on a downward spiral”

Actually they are not. There are more smaller cities that have built PACs in the past decade than ever before.

But then, we are normally behind the times. Except when it comes to arenas and gaudy, overpriced police stations.

“I like it when the week starts out on such a positive note!”

It is positive!!! We could have a Mayor of this City who is known for fiscal good management represent us in Ottawa and get us $15million federal money towards a PAC ….. ;-)

The other part of the good news is that she could get the then Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to come to the opening. ;-)

“49% increase in performing arts spending between 2001 and 2008

“After adjusting for inflation, consumer spending on live performing arts increased by 49% between 2001 and 2008. In 2001, for those households with some spending on live performing arts, 25 cents out of every $100 in household income was spent on live performing arts. This figure had increased substantially by 2008 (an average of 31 cents out of every $100 in household income)”

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“With an abundance of spending options, many Canadians choose live performing arts

“Canadians have many ways in which to spend their disposable income. As a comparator to live performing arts, the report also examines some indicators of spending on three other attendance-related activities: movie theatres, museums, and live sports events. The results of these comparisons show that a substantial proportion of the Canadian public spends a considerable amount of money on live performing arts.

“The $1.426 billion spent on live performing arts was slightly higher than spending on movie theatre admissions ($1.216 billion) and more than double the spending on live sports events ($0.645 billion) or admissions to museums and heritage-related activities ($0.519 billion) in 2008. In 2008, 37% of all Canadian households spent any money on live performing arts. In comparison, 55% spent any money on movie theatre admissions, 29% on museum admissions, and 17% on live sports events.

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Shocking to the hillbilly PG psyche, isn’t it Smiddy???? ;-)

More than double spent on PA than on live sports …… pitty!!!!

http://www.hillstrategies.com/content/patterns-performing-arts-spending-canada-2008

There is a reason why the smart communities in the country spent money on small PACs …… There is an interest.

Wouldn’t it be cheaper to refurbish Vanier Hall?

I think the PAC get’s a rougher ride than it normally would because it’s proponents are willing to use back channels to get this done. I have nothing against performing arts, I go to theatre, I like concerts, etc.

But when I see city crews freezing their butts off thawing the ground to repair broken water lines or leaking sewer pipes, it’s hard to get excited about borrowing millions for what is in a sense a luxury.

Now, if someone can come up with a business case that shows a PAC generating enough profit to repay the money borrowed by the city, with interest, and said business case is reviewed by competent professionals, and, the proponents all sign personal guarantees for say $5,000.00 each – so they have something to lose, then you’d have my interest.

Gus, problem is:
They don’t differentiate between different live performance arts, concerts are not held in PACs but rather in places like the multiplex not a PAC. Performance arts are also comedy acts, virtually anything that is performing to the public. A pub with a live band is performance art, not just dance and theater.

How many people went to a concert but would not step into a opera? How many would go to Dora the Explorer at Vanier hall but not go see a performance of Cats?

JB wrote: “Wouldn’t it be cheaper to refurbish Vanier Hall?”

A reasonable question which deserves a reasonable attempt at an answer.

There is the political reality that the SD57 and the City have not been known to play nice together. It is something that few like to talks about. Both the Bell Theatre (and it is just a theatre rather than a PAC – which are multiple spaces) in Surrey and the Sagebrush Theatre in Kamloops are true community theatres which are operated by an independent group not affiliated with the SD nor the City. There is a joint use agreement in place.

That would be the first thing that would have to happen, otherwise it would not work.

Next, we have the physical fact that Vanier Hall is not in Downtown. The major reason why that is important is that the City and Regional District each have separate reports which states that the City should build a PAC to serve the region and that it should be placed downtown because it would generate more activity there. Actually, for precisely the same reason why people say the University should be located downtown.

Finally, we have the facility itself. Here we can go to a similar reason why the police station is in a new building rather than altering the existing building, why Save-on-Foods built a new store at CH shopping centre, and why BC Hydro built a new building rather than refurbishing the old – renovation displace existing use for a year or two, and renovations CAN be more expensive and certainly more complex than building new.

So, let us look at refurbishing Vanier Hall. Here is what needs to be done.

1.The stage is too small and has to be increased both in width and in depth

2.A fly tower has to be added, which means a new support structure on columns with footing dug into the ground

3.The back of house has to be increased considerably for a loading dock level with the stage, proper green rooms for the actors/musicians, storage space, associated washrooms, etc. That will encroach on the parking space, so additional parking will have to be provided to replace the parking removed. On popular concert nights the parking is packed.

4.The seating in the back has to be pulled up to a balcony and the roof raised for sightlines and improved acoustics. This will also bring the audience closer to the stage and, for smaller audiences, the theatre will not feel and sound half empty.

5.A foyer has to be provided with stairs to the balcony and washrooms at least on the lower level, if not also at the balcony level. An elevator has to be added. The theater needs separation from the school to separate the noise from the school activities and the theatre activities.

I think that takes care of most of it.

As far as cost goes, my best estimate is that one could build a new theatre in any other location in the city for the same price ….

Say total project cost of $30 to $35 million in 2015/16 dollars with all professional fees, etc. That is for a single theatre, not for a PAC with several smaller performance spaces added.

The savings come from “free” property and “free” parking spaces already provided.

I think the community is owed several options on locations with a proper examination of pros and cons. The City, however, wants it downtown. There is a cost to that. There may be benefits.
We are, however owed better explanations.

If the City and the SD had their act together, they could have built the PAC with Duchess Park HS. That is how the Bell Centre in Abbotsford came about.

http://www.sagebrushtheatre.ca

[url]http://www.bellperformingartscentre.com

[/url]
http://www.bellperformingartscentre.sd36.bc.ca/sp-datastore/cache/thumbnails/b/0/b011099d22cf6679e4b769a4ff7b37ba79afacef-06b72d09ca0be42c6acffac8d519f2dd412d2467.jpg

http://www.bellperformingartscentre.sd36.bc.ca/sp-datastore/cache/thumbnails/e/e/eecb77595c57ba0b2e0ccee6018183eddc80e1f1-06b72d09ca0be42c6acffac8d519f2dd412d2467.jpg

http://www.bellperformingartscentre.com

You are partly right, slinky.

Check out the frequency of performances at the CN Centre that are put on with only the smallest section open for the “stage”.

There are performers will not perform in large arenas which depend totally on amplified sound and there are many more who prefer to perform in smaller space. You are not going to have a Neil Young perform with an acoustic guitar in a hall like that.

I would love to see the breakdown of net income on the sports events and the “concert” events at CN Centre.

I have mentioned this a number of times, however I will do it again. Hopefully people will understand what is taking place.

The City, IPG, and the Performing Arts Society have been working on this project for years. They have already come up with a design, a location, and (secretly) a plan for funding.

THE CITY HAS NO INTENTION OF HAVING THIS PROJECT GO TO A REFERENDUM. NOR WILL THEY BORROW THE MONEY, BECAUSE IS WOULD REQUIRE GOING TO AN ALTERNATIVE APPROVAL PROCESS. THEY MIGHT LOSE A REFERENDUM, OR AAP, SO WHY TAKE THE RISK.

Here’s the skinny on what they are doing.

1. They will approach and get approx. $15 Million from the Feds, and $15 Million from the Province.

2. They will get some money from local donations, and probably the PAC Society will do some fund raising.

3. They are presently putting money into the Capital Projects Fund from the sale of land along Highway 16,. (Hence the desire to sell off Pine Valley Golf Course),. They have sold the Tennis Court Lands.

4. They will sell the property that the Playhouse Theatre sits on, and will tear it down.

5. With the money from the sale of lands the City will be able to fund its portion of the PAC ie; approx. $10/15 Million dollars.

So the plan for funding is already in place. The plan at the moment is to get this done after the next election.

So whats the problem.

1. The City refuses to fix our roads, or sewers, etc with money from the sale of land, however feels using this money for a PAC. is **Ok**

2. The City would have you believe that the maintenance and operating costs of this facility would be around $300,000.00 per year, when in fact it will be much closer to $450,000.00. So more tax increases.

There is very little interest from the General Public for a performing arts centre, and they are the one’s who will have to pay for it.

If the City was **honest** they would dedicate all monies available from land sales, etc; to road repairs, infrastructure, etc, and eliminate the need to raise taxes, or bring in phoney utilities .

Once this money makes a significant difference to the real needs of this community, then they can look at a PAC.

Keep your eye on the ball on this one. The first inning takes place to-night at City Hall.

Vanier Hall? Not very likely! The city has already bought the property where the potential PAC is going to be built. The die is cast! Once they have set out upon a certain path no amount of new info or calls for a second look will have any influence, as per past history! It also has to go downtown where parking has never been an issue! ;-(

After MP comes the inevitable run for PM! Natural progression…

Call me cynical, but I also think the Winter Games will be a potential funding source. All the costs up to now have been funded by taxes and other levels of government. When the games are actually held, who get’s the ticket revenue. There can’t be that many expenses because it’s mostly volunteer labour, so in theory the games should make a profit – which won’t be returned to the taxpayer via lower taxes to compensate for the winter games levy, but instead, will be redirected to the PAC.

PM??? Ford has told Fox News that he will be PM ….

Wonder if Harper has called Wynne yet ….

Ford is turning out to be a major nut case and embarrassment to all of Canada!

“They have already come up with a design, a location, and (secretly) a plan for funding.”

No secret to the funding. That was revealed when the city made application to the P3 invitations. I wrote that before, but people get stuck in a rut with their personal belief systems!

There is no design, nor agreed to location.

The design is a quick sketch type of design of what it could look like. There is one for each of two locations.

Should this ever get off the ground, there will be an RFP call, or an appointment of an architect and possibly architect/builder team similar in process to the WIDC project.

THAT is when the design will be done.

It would be really nice if those who pontificate do it with at least some knowledge of how these things work.

If you do not make efforts to learn that, that, there is no credibility attached to the words.

In fact, there is a third order of magnitude “design” which is on the PAC web page and included again in tonight’s Power Point presentation – the full block version which was used in the first report and used for the approximate cost estimate for the project.

Re; Vanier Hall.

Thanks gus for your expertise. Assuming your numbers are right, it sounds like we can’t afford a new PAC or a refurbished PAC.

If there ever is to be a PAC then it should be voted on at election time. If not then the proponents have shown they have no respect for democracy and the tax payers of this city.

I would be willing to bet there is far more support in PG for a world class dirt biking and off road ATV park out North Nechako that would cost a fraction of a PAC if done on crown land past the cutbanks… but those people aren’t going to ask everyone else to pay for it.

Tearing down the existing Playhouse would be a total waste and shame IMO.

Its only money, council would say, Why do we have a bunch of fools trying to hurt the taxpayer???? The worst part is most of these people are educated. Yet they dont understand debt. This winter games fiasco will be over with in about 2 weeks. WE will then be in debt probably for about 50 million. But hey, it will be great for our young athletes.
They need workers? Train a bunch of our young athletes for god sake. Just saying.I think the ongoing tax increases are keeping people from moving here. WE have about the same population as 10 yrs ago.

Hey … $50 million ??? pulled out of the air … certainly not based on reality …. love these people who don’t know what they are talking about.

Gus … based on the amount of writing you do on this site, you really need to include some life away from your computer. ;-)

Just thinkin’ of your health and all…

“THAT is when the design will be done.”

Seems to me that the society came up with a preliminary design/set of specifications for financial estimates of cost and continuing maintenance. It revealed that the new PAC would have only twenty seats more than Vanier Hall. This was extensively commented on 250. The problem with Vanier Hall is that it would have to be shared with the SD to accommodate the needs of the students. Also it does not have an orchestra pit, a serious drawback, no A/C and adding all that plus new washroom facilities, proper sound etc would cost too big a bundle.

Has the society started any fundraising yet?

Is there actually a way the citizens can stop this or not?

Maybe if you give them an offer they can’t refuse.