Calling it now: there’s a net-zero chance of averting this strike without the City dropping its absurd “net-zero” policy.

wait till next week to go on strike dont screw with the Band Perry concert why make so many people suffer!!!

It’s really just this simple- Green and her city managers need to stop approving raises for themselves and spread the wealth with the city labourers and if that’s not an option for the pencil pushers with large salaries, perhaps they should climb into a plow truck, garbage truck or a vactor and do the job!
Oh and while they’re at it, stop spending our money on your trips to China, hiring people like Beth James and KPMG core reviews that are redundant.

How much more are taxpayers going to have to pay to keep City workers happy? That’s the question.

Wait until next week pfft. Get it over with now! Sick and tired of hearing about this crap. Lived here for 1 year and I’ve never seen such a crappy team of council members and a lame mayor who do everything BACKWARDS! It’s 2014, get with the times! And no I don’t have the option to move away.

There sure seems to be a lot of new users lately with the same writing/lack of grammar style. Just sayin’.

“How much more are taxpayers going to have to pay to keep City workers happy? That’s the question”

It will probably be less than you and the company you work for will be raking in when all your favorite taxpayer funded projects like the Site C dam get approved.

Well the clock is ticking and Green maybe feeling some heat as the canceling of events will cause some major pain and embarrassing for sure. However she is a knot head so who knows.

Is it true that a Janitor’s wage for the City starts at $27/hr?

I wonder what Shari’s and the management at city hall starts at if you figured an hourly wage??

Management is significantly higher, and equally obscene. That said, I find $27/hr to be a rather high wage for a janitorial position (if true).

It is true that custodians start at $27 an hour but they are not the lowest paid or least skilled workers. They also have to take care of building maintenance and do their work around everyone else. They do clean but they also take care of the equipment in the various city facilities. I used to work for the city and I know most of the custodian earn their pay based on the short time I worked at the city. I can’t say the same for management.

The Custodian is a caretaker, not a maid.

I’ve changed my thinking on this. Okay, last contract CUPE won – but the city wanted that 5 year contract – so that’s the price they paid. Going forward, they should at least get inflation – they shouldn’t have to go backwards. Now, one could point to other jurisdictions where CUPE workers are paid less than here – but you know what – they don’t have to live in Prince George. To keep good people here, you have to pay them well. It’s almost generally agreed the city has blown tons of cash on less than necessary items, and so, we the taxpayer/voter, have to live with the people we elected, but that’s not the worker’s fault.

And let’s say the city wins this, and they accept net zero – so now we have a workforce that’s angry, and I think what we’ll see from them, is net zero effort.

I’m not saying any different. I’m simply intrigued at the rather high level of compensation across the City workforce (both Union and Management), with Management being preciptiously worse.

The city employees are very well paid for what they do. Most of the employees in the streets division have very little experience, they are earning 28.00 – 30.00 plus per hour. They receive at least $10 per hour in benefits and they have the best pension plan in the industry. What more could they ask for. I just had my street plowed today and I am on a bus route. There hasn’t even been a plow truck there since before the 15th of December. I don’t think they will have the support that they would like from the people.

So Casey you are saying it’s the workers fault for the condition of the streets? Can you back up the very little experience part?

“last contract CUPE won – but the city wanted that 5 year contract – so that’s the price they paid”

The City did not WANT the 5 year contract. They did not WANT a 4% increase in the last year. So, they took a gamble to hold the line at 3% and extending I another 2 years.

The gamble did not pay off. In hindsight, they should have accepted 4% and the negotiations would then have gone into an economic recession cycle and they would likely have been able to get at the most a 2,2,2 contract the same as many others around the province.

As far as workers being “angry” …. the ones we know have been depressed for several years now. They saw the writing on the wall when Green came in as the Mayor. People started leaving even before to go to places they were more comfortable in, even at lower pay rates they were used to here. Some of that is public knowledge and has been identified on this site as it happened.

The city employees are very well paid for what they do. Most of the employees in the streets division have very little experience, they are earning 28.00 – 30.00 plus per hour. They receive at least $10 per hour in benefits and they have the best pension plan in the industry. What more could they ask for. I just had my street plowed today and I am on a bus route. There hasn’t even been a plow truck there since before the 15th of December. I don’t think they will have the support that they would like from the people.

Think about Derek Bates and the circumstance of his leaving as well as Tim McEwen.

At least in the case of Derek Bates we may have actually made an improved choice.

Time will tell on that one.

seamuttt: “So Casey you are saying it’s the workers fault for the condition of the streets?”

Are you saying the workers are happy about the job they’ve done so far? I’m not even talking about the streets that haven’t been plowed yet. I haven’t seen such a half-a–ed snow plowing job in a long time. And that’s saying something. From the two lane roads that turn into one lane and back again along with the windrows that don’t go away. Terrible! Not to mention dangerous.

Casey17, I do not know whether you live on 1st avenue between Tabor and Foothills, but it sound the same. That section of road normally gets plowed within 48 hours of a significant snowfall, as does the sidewalk because it is a bus route.

That has not happened this time around.

They are just not maintaining their standard. Are they now going to zones only?

Too many echoes in here.

I am saying that it is the foreman who are responsible for an area and if they are not out driving the area’s to see what is going on and what has been done then they can not be on top of their crew. I can back up the lack of experience but I will not in this forum. I would think that these posts are being read as we speak by some of the managers that are in control

I am saying that it is the foreman who are responsible for an area and if they are not out driving the area’s to see what is going on and what has been done then they can not be on top of their crew. I can back up the lack of experience but I will not in this forum. I would think that these posts are being read as we speak by some of the managers that are in control

Seamut(t) wrote: “So Casey you are saying it’s the workers fault for the condition of the streets?”

I like to think of modern work relationships as teams. Worker – supervisor – manager.

They ALL have a part to play, including the part about communicating with each other about work methodology, schedules, equipment, operators capabilities, skills/knowledge/attitude improvement, expectations, etc.

This is not a blame game. When it goes to that lowest denominator, no one wins. If there are mangers, supervisors, workers that cannot work that way, they need to be given the opportunity to learn. If that does not happen hey need to be moved elsewhere where they may be a better fit, or else let go.

Maybe that is one of the problems. Union and management cannot work together to accomplish that.

“The city employees are very well paid for what they do. Most of the employees in the streets division have very little experience, they are earning 28.00 – 30.00 plus per hour. They receive at least $10 per hour in benefits and they have the best pension plan in the industry.”

Simply put, BULLS*it!! The BEST pension plan in the industry, are you Nuts! First off WHAT industry?…..the “Industry” of municipalities? If so there are NUMEROUS citys with better pension plans than the City of PG.

You state that most of the employees in streets have very little experience (Is that just your guess or do you have facts to back that up)and they are earning 28 30$ an hour. And??! You mean like the guys at sawmills with grade 10 educations or truck drivers for 30$ an hour. Bottom line is its the cost of doing business and nowadays if ANYONE thinks that 28$ an hour is a huge wage my guess is your working at mcdonalds. There are kids driving around this City in brand new jacked up trucks that they bought cuz there making 3x that in industry, mining, oil fields. The city workers are the ones that are buying your vehicles, shopping at your grocery stores, gassing up at the local station AND paying the same local Taxes you are…..so if you think that 28$ an hour is a ‘huge wage’ in 2014 your way wrong. Its not the workers fault that this Mayor and the idiots following her around council cant balance the books yet can find Millions for a Performing Arts center….cuz we all know how badly a northern mill town needs THAT Cultural icon!

I am saying that it is the foreman who are responsible for an area and if they are not out driving the area’s to see what is going on and what has been done then they can not be on top of their crew. I can back up the lack of experience but I will not in this forum. I would think that these posts are being read as we speak by some of the managers that are in control

CrysBaron, you are obviously passionate about this issue, fair enough.Your views are your own & certainly are entitled to them. However, again, do some research before posting as your views look more reactionary & less thought out. First, $28/hr is a very good wage no matter where you are if you are unskilled &/or uneducated. Second, not too many workers are making $84/hr (3×28), personally I know of 3 1st Class Engineers making around that, most Oilsands workers are up around $50/hr. Mining wages are around the same as Forest industry wages & nowhere near what is paid in Oil & Gas. Third, a person needs at least Grade 12 to get even entry level in most forestry related jobs now. Fourth, you ask for evidence on postings from others, please back up your statement; “If so there are NUMEROUS citys with better pension plans than the City of PG.”

Yes the janitor does make the big bucks – but are they tired after their 8 hour shify? No – they apply for casual custodian for the school district and work another 8 hour shift and laugh about it – who can put 16 hours per day and not be tired! Check out the uninon’s no layoff contact clause – no worries about losing your positions. Speak to a reasonable city CUPE member and he /she will tell you that wage is not important- they just want to keep their job security – no layoff clause.

CrysBaron…you say, “You mean like the guys at sawmills with grade 10 educations or truck drivers for 30$ an hour…”

Look, us “guys at the sawmill” are also union members and support the City workers, so don’t be taking pot shots at us millworkers and truck drivers saying we are poorly educated…that’s a low blow.

“grade 10 educations” … I see.

Casey17 u know NOTHING! its not the Foreman that call the shots. its upper management that dictate where and when areas will be cleaned. Just look at the last couple years. snow removal has gone down the drain. Ms Green Has her area and her route to work cleared first!!! u don’t believe me check it out yourselves, she lives on Clare crescent. she tells her niggers to tell upper management on “how to” and “when to” do snow removal! and why do I know this! Because I work for the city!

CF18, lay off the offensive rhetoric. You do no service to your fellow workers by referring to them in such an offensive manner. I live close to Ms. Green & I can tell you the roads in question are in horrible shape.

I like the team approach. Fancy meetings and all that bs, we will work as a team. Yep as long as it’s the company way. Seen it, done it, did not work as advertised. Kind of hard for management to mark the closest tree when the pee-ons are allowed feedback.

CF18 – yes please be respectful. Other than that I agree totally with your comments.
Also, most people don’t know this, but it is a FACT that when it snows the mayor has her ‘special’ little parking spot hand shoveled by the parks division. If it snows more that day, she calls the foreman and the staff come back and shovel it again. Again, this is FACT.
I’ve been told its cause she doesn’t want to get her pretty little shoes wet.
ALL previous mayors used to park right at the corner of the building where Cable 10 also parks. When the back hoe used to come in to clear that parking log before 8:00am, they could just make a few big swoops and get the parking lot done right away.
Now, like I say, she has ‘special treatment’ for her little parking spot – which is next to the dumpster I might point out !!! lol

“Seen it, done it, did not work as advertised”

I apologize …. I forget about the level of education we are talking about.

“Third, a person needs at least Grade 12 to get even entry level in most forestry related jobs now. Fourth, you ask for evidence on postings from others, please back up your statement; “If so there are NUMEROUS citys with better pension plans than the City of PG.”

I appreciate your comments too, be they incorrect on many points. U personally know of 3 1st class engineers, well I personally know of at least 6 individuals working at a sawmill here and in Quesnel that have grade 10 (In fact there’s an older lumber grader there with GRADE 8) As for other city’s having better pension plans,

City of Chilliwack, City of North Vancouver, City of Kelowna, City of Abbotsford. Now if you want me to do ALL your research for you I simple don’t have the time.

Blackjack- I didn’t mean to offend mill workers or truckers, the comment was in response to the suggestion that City workers are inexperienced and being paid to much, something I am sure you see yourself in the Sawmill industry. I am well aware that this is a Strong Union City. Railways, Hospitals, Pulp Mills, Sawmills, Airports, trucking etc etc are all Unions. My passion is simply that I am sick and tired of hearing mental midgets voicing there hate towards city employees WIDESPREAD just because there street isn’t in the condition they like or they didn’t get a Bylaw Officer out to them fast enough. This is a case of a Mayor who from DAY 1 has had her eye on Provincial/Federal politics and is trying to use “Breaking the City Union” as her resume. Shari Green will go down as the worst, most arrogant, out of touch self absorbed, narcissistic Mayor this City has EVER seen. I guarantee you if Colin Kinsley or hell even Dan Rogers was Mayor this labor dispute would have been over a year ago!!

Gus. Don’t think you should use the WIDC Building as an example of how workers get things done.

The Worlds tallest all-wood residential structure, the 30-metre-tall Stadthaus tower in East London 9 Stories. It took the four-man KLH construction crew just 27 days to erect the nine-story structure. The construction time savings helped to compress the overall project schedule to just 46 weeks.

The Prince George building looks very much like the East London structure, and I suspect it is nothing more than a copy, of this building. Cross Laminated Beams and all.

These buildings once designed are very much like jigsaw puzzles and all that is required is to put the proper pieces in the right place and screw them down.

Rather strange that Prince George, has to hype the building as the largest wood structure in North America, while ignoring the East London structure which was completed in August 2010. Furthermore it appears that we are behind in getting the frame of this structure completed. They are still frigging around on the second floor.

Building architect Vancouver, Engineers Vancouver, Cross laminated panels, OK Falls BC.

Credit for the building, BC and Prince George politicians. Actual credit. Wood Innovation architects, and engineers who have been doing this type of work for a number of years.

As the police would say. **Nothing going on here folks, move along**

Well, I paid 46,000 in taxes last yr, my road hasnt been plowed in 3 weeks. This is the most lame situation i have seen in a long time. My cust cant even get in or out without
damaging their vehicles. I think maybe none of us should pay taxes for a few years.
This might thin out a bunch of culls.

CrysBaron, reread what I wrote;” Third, a person needs at least Grade 12 to get even entry level in most forestry related jobs NOW.” I also know & have worked with several individuals who did not recieve a Grade 12 or equivalent education, however NOW you would not get in the front door in most forest companies. “As for other city’s having better pension plans,

City of Chilliwack, City of North Vancouver, City of Kelowna, City of Abbotsford. Now if you want me to do ALL your research for you I simple don’t have the time.” ??? I never made the claim of better pensions, you did. Back it up with hard evidence, not just rattling off the names of some cities.

I normally stay right out of these discussions. As Abraham Lincoln is quoted as saying, it is “better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt”. However, on the matter of municipal pensions, I wanted to offer that all municipalities in BC have the same pension plan. All municipal employees are enrolled in the Municipal Pension Plan, a plan that is administered by the BC Pension Corporation (they also administer plans for colleges, universities health authorities, and other public sector organizations). As such, member contribution amounts are defined by employee “groups” as specified in the Municipal Pension Plan Rules. The Municipal Pension Plan is one of the statutory pension plans in BC that that is legislated by the Public Sector Pension Plans Act.

The active member contributions are set on the member’s salary. Therefore, a municipal employee’s pension is a function of their pay rate. While I can’t speak for any other municipality, I can say that in the Okanagan (specifically the City of Kelowna and the District of West Kelowna), municipal employee salaries are typically less than in Prince George for many comparable positions. I am a former Prince George resident, a past municipal employee and now working in private industry and my wife, previously a local government employee in Prince George, is a municipal employee here.

I offer this only as clarification on municipal pension contributions.

Thank you for that information from someone who knows. I was under the impression both of the issues you speak of were as you mention.

What is so often shown on here is that people in general, at least those who post on here, are not very conversant with what happens around them.

I think it is sort of like Jay Leno’s “streetwalking” for those who watch that show …. it shows how little people know about what they really should know about.

I would not be surprised if less than half of the people who have a pension plan from work know the details of that plan. They may think they know, but they really do not.

I often wonder when we quote someone from the past how accurate that information actually is.

So, when I explored the internet for a few minutes those words attributed to Lincoln are also attributed to people like Mark Twain.

But I think the notion had its origins much earlier. From Proverbs 17:28 (KJV) come these words:
“Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.”

Quotes from Palopu

Quote #1 “Worlds tallest all-wood residential structure, the 30-metre-tall Stadthaus tower in East London 9 Storeys”

Things move fast …. tallest residential tower of wood is Forté in Melbourne, Australia completed last year – same 9 storeys at 32.17 metres tall. I’ve posted that on 250NEWS before.

http://makeitwood.org/made-from-wood/Forte.cfm

Time lapse of the construction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqXygHyU5ws

==============================
Quote #2 “It took the four-man KLH construction crew just 27 days to erect”

KLH is the Austrian company which invented the CLT panel system of construction. They are experienced at putting those types of buildings together. A highrise would have been simple for them compared to some of the more complex buildings they do.

There is probably a small crew of around 6 on the WIDC if one counts just the crane operator the assemblers and the material loaders.

Here is their web site. Have a look at the complexity of their buildings.

http://www.klh.at

====================================
Quote #3 “I suspect it is nothing more than a copy”

What a stupid statement. The construction method of columns and beams has been used for centuries using wood, stone, concrete, steel.

The London building is a panel building … like a deck of cards.

The WIDC is a column and beam building with panels for floor infill and for core shear walls. Totally different methods.

While methods of construction might be the same, the actual building designs are unique.

==============================
Quote #4 “Cross laminated beams and all”

Beams are not cross laminated. Wall and floor panels are. Beams are standard longitudinal laminations as they have been for over half a century.

============================
Quote #5 “These buildings once designed are very much like jigsaw puzzles and all that is required is to put the proper pieces in the right place and screw them down.”

No different than building the Empire State Building with steel.

What you are actually seeing is a predominately factory built systems building. This type of building system took off in Europe after the second world war when there was a need for rebuilding cities and there was a shortage of men to build them.

Toronto was the only place in Canada where the European concrete systems buildings were introduced to this country. There were several plants in the USA.

There were two plants in TO. They put up residential buildings up to around 20 storeys high at a rate of one floor a week of up to 16 apartments per floor using two hammerhead cranes.

The new Delta hotel could be going up at the same rate of a floor a week after they finish the pour of the garage roof. In less than two months it would be topped off. The concrete panels could be shipped from Vancouver or Edmonton.

======================================
Quote #6 “They are still frigging around on the second floor.”

You really do not get around much, do you? They are actually “frigging” around on the 5th floor (counting the first floor and mezzanine as two floors)

http://www.unbc.ca/engineering/watch-construction-future-home-engineering-live

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Quote #7 “Building architect Vancouver, Engineers Vancouver, Cross laminated panels, OK Falls BC.”

That is the only part of your post that hits close to the truth.

We no longer have Architects of any note here. We never really had any engineers of any note here for structural, mechanical, electric, etc. for major buildings.

What you missed is that there are at least 3 times as many specialists working on the design of the building than what you indicated. They come from as far away as Ottawa. In addition, of course PCL is not a local contractor.

Other than concrete, most other building materials for such structures come from outside of PG. The RCMP station, Hospital, College, BC Hydro, UNBC, Box stores, etc. etc. all get their building materials from outside of PG. The WDIC is not unique.

The real key would be to get a plant to manufacture laminated wood in PG. That would be a major coup in my opinion.

Here is waht the Chinese are doing. The key is moving as much of the building process into a closely controlled and mechanized factory setting.

30 storey building built in 15 days in China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwvmru5JmXk

15 storey hotel in 6 days China – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNv13fY_3jY

There are rumours they may build the tallest building in the world in the same fashion in a time period of 7 months.

This is a concrete panel systems building built in 1971/72 in Toronto with a systems invented in Denmark – Jesperson.

I worked for the firm doing feasibility studies and the initial floor design layouts as well as site plans.

Still in good shape after over 40 years.

http://livehigh.com/uploads/condos/The_Copenhagen-lowrise-0081-2_Glenmorgan_Avenue-Scarborough-Cliffside-Scarborough_Village-Condos-5.JPG

http://livehigh.com/uploads/condos/The_Copenhagen-lowrise-0081-2_Glenmorgan_Avenue-Scarborough-Cliffside-Scarborough_Village-Condos-7.JPG

Cree Systems …. composite structures … which is what most of the wood buildings really are. Joint use steel, and floors may be wood-concrete composites.

http://www.creebyrhomberg.com/en

8 storeys in 8 days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kebdOnWIxS8

Knock yourself out, Palopu ….

One has to learn sometime … WDIC crew is doing quite well for newbies, in winter, and maybe even supply problems with the “just in time” system from the south.

One of the problems with buildings which go up like a deck of cards is that sometimes the connections fail.

This one happened in the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point

There was a failure of one under construction in Alberta in the 1980’s I think it was. Architect, Engineer and Contractor were killed as they were inspecting the building and someone removed a temporary cable too many.

The Russians also had similar collapses to the UK one. In addition, they sometimes got panels in the wrong locations thus no doors or windows where there should have been some.