Of course the Liberal government doesn’t like binding arbitration, that would detract from their true goal, which is to destroy public education. They don’t want them to go back to work either, until they’re doing it on their knees. BC Liberals don’t care about the education of children, they care about commerce and patronage.

I am beginning to think this isn’t a lot to do with the teachers being on strike so much as how much damage can the government do to the union before settling.

Come on Fassbender, bite the bullet, accept you and Clark lost, and lets get this deal done.

The government is going to have to get rid of this big pot of money and have separate pots for different ministries.

“While not flatly discounting the idea of binding arbitration, Fassbender has made it clear it is not something he would like to do “I think the reality is I’ve never been a fan of binding arbitration.”

Yep with their record in court I wouldn’t like it either!

Like I said in the other thread, if the arbitrated settlement cost is higher than the other public sector unions bargained for, it’s not going to happen.

If the BCTF accepted a deal similar to what other unions bargained for, this would have been over long ago. They clearly want a lot more than that.

Stick to your guns Christy. We can wait. This province can’t be run by public sector unions. Period.

I got a continuing education course calendar in the paper this week and found a couple of courses the bctf should sign up for post-haste. The first is Negotiation Skills Level 1. When they complete that one should tranfer to Mediation Skills Level 1. It is clear they are lacking in both areas.

There is no way the province should hand over the provincial purse to an arbitrator. Sign within the range or continue wearing out your Birkenstocks walking the line.

Of course he’s no fan of binding arbitration…an arbitrator would look at what other provinces are spending on education and compel the government to match. No chance he goes down that road, wants to continue to completely underfund the education system in BC to promote and fund the private school system for those financially capable.

For those touting the “range” I ask you, have the teachers been offered the 4% over 2 that all the other public sector unions just finished? I’ll save you some work, the answer is no. Take that plus the 5.5% over 5 that the other unions are currently agreeing to (the range) and you have 9.5% over 7. I ask you, how much are the teachers asking for over 7?

Fate: “Of course he’s no fan of binding arbitration…an arbitrator would look at what other provinces are spending on education and compel the government to match.”

An arbitrator would of course know that Nunavut and the NWT throw the average off considerably. BC is about average when it comes to spending.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Editorial+education+spending+lower+crisis/9559273/story.html

“As for devoting $1,000 less per pupil than the national average, the countrywide average — $12,557 in 2010-11 — reflects per-pupil funding that is, not $1,000, but rather $725 higher than what B.C. spends.

But even that disparity is not terribly relevant. That’s because the national average is totally skewed by out-sized per-pupil funding in the northern territories, of between $18,000 and $20,000. Among provinces, B.C. does not spend substantially less.”

JB I dare you to answer Fates bottom paragraph, think hard buddy.

Teachers that I talked with said that much of the gov’t rhetoric is an attempt to divert attention from the major sticking point which is clause E80 . The gov’t insists on this clause that would nullify the results of the court case.
According to Global news, “it’s the government’s attempt to negotiate out of their court loss”…. the next ruling would be its third loss.

Teachers that I spoke with said that the gov’t has not gone to arbitration or legislated them back to work, but has employed a “strave them out” approach in an attempt to force this clause through. In other words, the gov’t is trying an end play to get around losing in court

Maybe this was the plan last year when Fassbender dismantled the BCPSEA (which was made up of reps from elected school boards) and replaced them with one gov’t appointee: Michael Marchbank. Fassbender said that removal of boards from bargaining was, “ actually going to enhance (their role)”; however, the boards, expressing frustration and disappointment, didn’t see it that way. Removal will enhance their role ? Fassbender is a beauty.
.

Here’s an article on the court case. There are many similar articles to choose from.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/01/29/Why-Clark-Refuses-to-Hear-What-Supreme-Court-Tells-Her/

Well well well. These teachers are plain gready.
They’ll get more desperate every day though.
Hold on Christie!
Starve them for a few weeks and see how united they are?
They’ll run like rats from old iker and toss him under the bus when this is all finished.

buzzinga, easy to answer assuming all years are equal non-compounding.
BCTF is asking 7.5 over 5 or 10.5 over 7.
BCPSEA is offering 5.5 over 6 or 4.6 over 5 or 6.4 over 7.

Point is moot as Iker says there is only 1% between the offers, you can see he is no math teacher.

Get real lildigger the gov will cave because they don’t stand a chance in court for the 3rd time

“BCPSEA negotiator (Peter Cameron) only  heard about the offer five minutes before  BCTF President  Jim Iker went public with the offer”
Good thing you’re keeping the battle out of the media eh iker?

Need a “Like” button. Two thumbs up interceptor.

buzzinga: “JB I dare you to answer Fates bottom paragraph, think hard buddy.”

Challenge accepted. There is more to the cost of the proposed settlement other than wages and percentage increases. Benefits (like massages, signing bonuses, and fertility drugs) must also be taken into account. Other provisions like class size and composition changes also cost money.

In the end, we will all be footing the bill to pay for this settlement.

Buzzinga.
As I don’t have a vested interest in the teacher strike, my judgement is not clouded like yours.
The court decisions mean nothing.
If Christie loses she’ll just stiff the teachers on future raises.
Do you think there is an endless pot of money to perpetually pay babysitters/teachers from?

I, as a taxpayer do not want my government to go to binding arbitration, I want the BCTF to get realistic. Iker doesn’t seem the least bit concerned with students, he’s a grand stander just like his predecessors.

Everyone that keeps spouting off the demands that the bctf are making, you need to go and check what has been removed from table. And if I was in a union I too would ask for more and then work from there.

karmann, you criticize Fassbender and call him a beauty for the removal of boards from bargaining?

Isn’t that EXACTLY what the Glen Clark NDP Government of the day did back in 1998 when they negotiated(?), actually when they gave their sweetheart deal to the BCTF???

You seem fine with what the NDP did back then but now you criticize Fassbender? Kind of hypocritical, don’t you think??

JB. You need to host a birthday party for 28 kids, 5 days a week for 6 hrs a day and meet all their needs for 10 months a year. Three with special needs, one type one diabetic, 5 with severe behaviour problems, one anxiety disorder and 2 with anaphylactic reactions. 3 kids were very happy to receive their first meal in two days. Now you have lived a day and the life of a teacher.

And if this was Vancouver 10 do not speak basic English.

” Iker doesn’t seem the least bit concerned with students”

Comments such as this truly make me laugh. All you Liberal lovin’ fanboys think that this Prov. Gov’t cares a pinch about you? Families First is their mantra…. what they mean is their families first, not yours. If they truly cared about the children of this province and their education, they would have legislated the Teachers back to work by now.

Talking about hypocrisy (by Hart Guy), perhaps one of the pro-government apologists could explain the hypocrisy of the government regarding the court cases.

They have appealed a decision by the courts to award $2 million to the BCTF and restore the provisions of the collective agreement violated illegally. In other words, it is before the courts.

In previous cases (Basi & Virk, BC Rail) the government refused to comment on the matter, arguing that it was inappropriate to do so because it was before the courts.

Why, then, do Fassbender and Clarke insist that the subject matter that is before the courts should be discussed in contract negotiations and in the press, insisting on the inclusion of a clause that any final court decision can be rendered null and void. Isn’t that gross hypocrisy – no comment when its convenient and comment in spades when its what they want? To be consistent and keep to their own dogma, the government shouldn’t touch the matter under appeal with a ten foot bargepole. Still, intellectual consistency doesn’t appear to be Clarke’s forte.

8, if I had chosen a profession which turned into the disaster scenario which you are describing I would have done the obvious: change careers! I changed mine three times when it became necessary. That did the trick! It takes courage, of course!

Exactly PG. And despite 8’s ‘disaster scenario’, there are still a surplus of teachers in this province. Seems funny that so many educated people would be willing to choose a career with such poor conditions… unless they’re not quite as bad as 8 would have us believe.

ammonra: “If they truly cared about the children of this province and their education, they would have legislated the Teachers back to work by now.”

If the BCTF truly cared about the children of this province, they would have accepted an offer in line with what other public sector unions got.

JB, you really need to start paying attention to who wrote what. You’re in such a tizzy over this subject that you’ve twice now responded to my comments, and pointed them towards someone else.

JB (see how easy that is?) the Gov’t is responsible for providing education to the children. The teachers are the employees. If it was truly important for the Liberal Gov’t, this would solved by now. But it’s not important to them. Never was, never will be.

Now if the teachers were working on a longshore, we’d see some action.

this govt sickens me, pay Christy what I make and her kid would not be in private school and she would put the money where her mouth is ,,, family first see ya Christy ,,,I know you could care less because the gold plated freeway is right there on your way out ,, move far away ,, sicken someone else and take your other fat no good cats with you

It all boils down to a fight over taxpayers’ money

One thing sticks in my mind. In past negotiations and as late as this spring the government was very big on declaring education, or parts of it,
an essential service. What has changed that now makes it a non-essential service? Would it have anything to do with trying to crush the BCTF?

VICTORIA — Fresh from an election victory, Premier Christy Clark’s BC Liberal government has significantly increased the maximum salaries it can pay to its top political staff.

A cabinet order signed June 3 boosts the maximum salary that can be handed to Clark’s chief of staff by 18 per cent, up to $230,000 per year.

Clark’s deputy chief of staff can now also make up to $230,000, representing a boost of almost 60 per cent from the position’s previous cap of $144,000.

Passed by Clark’s outgoing cabinet, the executive order also reclassifies the top aides to several ministers, elevating them from ministerial assistants to chiefs of staff, and allowing for a maximum salary of $105,000 — higher than the base salary now given to MLAs.

So far, the government has named 17 chiefs of staff across the various ministries, with two of them making the top allowable salary.

Clark refused to talk about the changes Tuesday, and the government did not say how many people had received increases as part of the restructuring.

Finance Minister Mike de Jong would also not give any specific details about the changes, but said the budget remains unchanged.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Christy+Clark+boosts+maximum+salaries+aides+cent/8510982/story.html#ixzz3CV

Round and Round it goes. Where it stops nobody knows.

1. BC’s graduation rate is approx. 75% which is basically the same as most Provinces in Canada.

2. Some drop out rates to ponder.(2009)

PEI Women 6.3% Men 9.6%
ONT 5.1% 9.3%
BC 5.6% 7.0%

The Province with the highest drop out rate is Alberta, guess what Province pays teachers the most???

Anyone who thinks there is a correlation between good teaching and salaries are living in a dream world.

There is no hard evidence to support the case that by adding costs of $1000.00 per student would produce a better product.

So much for ***its all for the children***

Have a nice day.

Why is it that in the past and as late as this spring that the education system or parts of it were declared an essential service but at present are not? Could it have something to do with crushing the BCTF? Just wondering.

Pylot: “JB (see how easy that is?) the Gov’t is responsible for providing education to the children. The teachers are the employees. If it was truly important for the Liberal Gov’t, this would solved by now. But it’s not important to them. Never was, never will be.”

Um, the teachers are on strike. They could end it tomorrow if it really was ‘for the kids’. The BCTF looks after its own members interests first and the kids are used as pawns.

I agree Palopu. I’ve said it before, you could pay teachers a million dollars each and have two kids per class and its not going to change the fact there are many HORRIBLE teachers out there teaching the children with absolutely no system in place to reward the good ones and get rid of the bad ones.

How about some sort of licensing system? You cannot practice medicine without a license. You cannot drive a car without a license. Yet there is no system in place to weed out poor teachers once they have put their time at university. Anyone can go put the time in at anything and learn what you need to know but if you don’t have the passion for what you do, its going to show in your efforts and results. If going to school and graduating meant you were capable of doing the job well, why do doctors need to be licensed by the medical board before legally practicing medicine? You wouldn’t want a crappy doctor operating on you or responsible for the health and welfare of you and your family, so why don’t people want the same for the welfare of their kids in school? I want the best possible person teaching kids, not someone who has more seniority or someone who doesn’t see the job as more than a paycheck. Many years ago I worked with a guy who was trying to become a teacher and I asked him why since he told me many times he hated kids and him and his wife weren’t ever going to have any. His response was great hours, great benefits and fat pension. I never found out if he became a full time teacher but imagine how kids would suffer under someone who was only looking out for themselves like that.

You can disagree all you want but there are many of those teachers out there and I have personally experienced it in school myself and I have personally witnessed it with my child and schoolmates.

I have a financial planner in the family. They have to do continuing education every year to keep their accreditation, and the initial schooling was about the same as a teaching degree. At the end of this they make about the same as the top end of the teachers wage scale. The differences? Only three weeks off per year. Actual 8 hour work days. Fail the yearly exam and lose your license. Dont meet targets and get fired. Teachers? Do whatever you want and short of a felony you will never be fired. No upgrading or competency exams to worry about. You work 5 hours a day with the rest a grey area based on your say so that you do a lot at home. Oh, one other difference? The financial planner I know absolutely loves their job and doesnt complain about it…

sounds like you had better sign up interceptor and help the poor bugger hit his target goals before they fire him, or better yet help him organize a union.

if any ordinary citizen defied the law like this govt. has you would find yourself in jail lickety-split

uh guess what pd days stand for its called professional development days so it is an ongoing upgrading, learning new skills, understanding better ways to educate your child to become the best that he/she might become!

hell I wouldn’t negotiate either if I could make up the rules as the game goes along. THE LIBERALS are more crooked than a dogs hind leg, we are becoming the ALABAMA of the north.

Tired of this greedy subject. Teachers are so self centered and narrow mind to think they will be settling for a much higher % rate than the rest of the public sector has already settled for is retarded to say the least.
I hope the teacher are out for 3 months. When all the smoke clears it will be interesting to know how they figure they will make up the $20,000 in lost wages not to mention regaining their credibility and trust with the tax payers of B.C.
It is time for all this greed to end. Tax payers have paid their entire lives in the hopes of a comfortable retirement. If inflation continue, it won’t be just them suffering it will be everyone suffering.

JB: “Um, the teachers are on strike. They could end it tomorrow if it really was ‘for the kids’. The BCTF looks after its own members interests first and the kids are used as pawns.”

The teachers don’t run the education system, the Gov’t does. The Liberals could legislate the teachers back to work tomorrow, but they won’t because they enjoy using children has pawns to push through their ideology.

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/5763650?1409867289&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Kind of a pain but thanks Charles for the post links info!

Posted on Friday, September 5, 2014 @ 10:35 PM by maverick 1965

Tired of this greedy subject. Teachers are so self centered and narrow mind to think they will be settling for a much higher % rate than the rest of the public sector has already settled for is retarded to say the least.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maverick and Johnnybelt both keep using the argument above. I challenge them both to directly answer the following question. The BCTF was never offered the 3.5% over 2 years that was the pattern that everyone else got. Why should they follow the new pattern, but not be part of that pattern. For this argument I will say that if the 3.5% over 2 everyone else got was added to the 5.5% over 5 that everyone else got, there would be no discrepancy on wages. The BCTF has already lived through the first 2 with 2 fat zeroes. So the pattern logically should be 9% over 5.

Pattern pattern pattern, everyone else settled for it, blah blah blah. One more question. If the pattern is the thing that must be done, why has the government never even once offered a 5 year contract through this ordeal when every other union got that?

Posted on Friday, September 5, 2014 @ 4:11 PM by slinky

buzzinga, easy to answer assuming all years are equal non-compounding.
BCTF is asking 7.5 over 5 or 10.5 over 7.
BCPSEA is offering 5.5 over 6 or 4.6 over 5 or 6.4 over 7.

Point is moot as Iker says there is only 1% between the offers, you can see he is no math teacher.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You asked me to answer this for you last night in a different thread. I wrote out a post, it never got put up for some reason. Then the site went down last night, and I had a busy day today. The other thread is closed for comment so I will answer it in this thread.

Iker keeps saying they are 1% and 1 year apart because that is what the most recent offers are.
The current BCTF offer is 8% over 5 years
The current Gov. offer is 7% over 6 years
You have challenged his math skills twice now. 8%-7% = 1% and 6 years – 5 years = 1 year.
So there you have it, 1% and 1 year apart.

“sounds like you had better sign up interceptor and help the poor bugger hit his target goals before they fire him, or better yet help him organize a union”
No need ice, they are good at their job and do very well on their own skills without a big group of like minded whiners bullying the employer into letting the culls keep working.

Not worth my effort spelling it for you “smooth”. Make a career change or stick with it and suck up your losses in the end life is all about choices.

If Maverick1965 can’t answer it then I challenge any of you. Why should they accept the pattern now considering they didn’t get the last pattern (3.5% over 2 and instead got zero and zero), and why should they accept the pattern now considering the pattern is 5.5% over 5 when they have never been offered a 5 year term even one single time?

Posted on Friday, September 5, 2014 @ 11:02 PM by Smooth
“The BCTF has already lived through the first 2 with 2 fat zeroes. So the pattern logically should be 9% over 5”

Not true, Iker is asking for 5,000 signing bonus to cover the zeros since the last contract expired. So 7% over 6 as you say the deal stands now is money aplenty.

Which brings up another point. Iker is so quick to go to the media and wants people to be behind him on this deal yet nowhere has the deal of 8% over 5 been even mentioned. If he will settle for 7.5 over 5 then why does he report to the media that is where he stands now?

As far as I am concerned the BCTF is a bunch of conniving lying cheats, huge den of thieves and media manipulators. Hope the BCPSEA and government sticks it to the union and they go hungry until Christmas

End transmission

Slinky,

I didn’t say the BCTF was asking for 9% over 5. I was arguing that because the bctf never received the 3.5 over 2 everyone else got that 9 over 5 would match the pattern closest. I agree with you that if 9 over 5 is where it ended (which it wont and is more than the bctf is asking for) then there should be no signing bonus. No one has yet to take me up and answer why the bctf must follow the pattern but never got the last pattern which has been better than all the others.

To answer your question about why Iker has never shared the current offer of 8% over 5, itis because before today’s arbitration announcement, Iker was really sticking to not sharing any details through media. The details he shared around massage the other day were only done to clarify Christy’s misinformation. He likely would not have shared details otherwise. I was quite disappointed that he went to the media first with arbitration and never gave the other side more advanced notice.

Can you give me an example of where the bctf has cheated or thieved?

Careful smooth the gang you are trying to explain the facts too in the simplists terms possible will take the ball and go home if not getting their way.

Bunch of thieves of taxpayers money and lying to the media to get sympathy. I will be on the horn to private schools on monday, this bunch of liars can do without my child’s 12,000 annually

I asked for an example, not a repeat of the statement. Please give an example of when taxpayers money was stolen (theft) and when they cheated.

Hopefully someone in the morning crew can answer my earlier questions.

Have fun paying that extra money in private school Slinky. When you see the bill just think of a single parent with 2 kids that have t o fork it out because there is no more public school.

Bunch of thieves of taxpayers money and lying to the media to get sympathy. I will be on the horn to private schools on monday, this bunch of liars can do without my child’s 12,000 annually

I totally agree slinky. This government is stealing our tax dollars. Could not of said it better.

I spend more than 300 bucks a month on coffee, don’t worry about my finances there buzzinga just keep listening to Iker lying to the taxpayers trying to cheat them out of more tax money. Go stand out on the picket line Smooth so I can flip you the bird as I drive by.

buzzinga Christy is a single parent with 2 kids. Her son Hamish and her newest baby “destroy public education”. ☻

Theif – one who commits theft or larceny.
Arguably many of the old time teachers that have been doing it for years, have lesson plans ready, get their kids to mark tests etc. They are mailing in 5 hours a day for the top end of the salary scale. And yes, there are quite a few of them. Why teachers don’t self regulate is beyond me. Must be a fear of being blackballed by the union bullies?

Smooth: “Iker keeps saying they are 1% and 1 year apart because that is what the most recent offers are.
The current BCTF offer is 8% over 5 years
The current Gov. offer is 7% over 6 years
You have challenged his math skills twice now. 8%-7% = 1% and 6 years – 5 years = 1 year.
So there you have it, 1% and 1 year apart.”

From Vaughn Palmer’s column in the Citizen this week:

“Class composition AND benefits AND wages.

Taking those in reverse order, the union’s last reported position was for an eight-per-cent wage increase over five years against a government offer of seven per cent over six. One year and one percentage point doesn’t sound like much of an impasse. But the union wants incremental increases toward the front end of the term while the government postpone most of the increase to the end, so the cost differential over the life of the deal would be substantial.

Plus the union sought improvements in benefits and working conditions, which would further contribute to the overall cost of the settlement. The government reckoned the difference at several hundred million dollars, a plausible claim given Ready’s professional estimation that “they are a long, long ways apart.”

“The current BCTF offer is 8% over 5 years
The current Gov. offer is 7% over 6 years
You have challenged his math skills twice now. 8%-7% = 1% and 6 years – 5 years = 1 year.
So there you have it, 1% and 1 year apart.”

==> Smooth I sure hope that you do not teach math. The only way to make to directly compare the two offers is to multiply the number of years of each contract times the increase per year. Hence

bctf 8%/5year term = 1.6 per year on a 5 year term is 8% on a 6 year term is 9.6%
gov’t 7%/6year term = 1.16 per year on a 5 year term is 5.8% on a 6 year term is 7%

No matter what the term of the contract the difference is double what Iker keeps saying.

Smooth: “Pattern pattern pattern, everyone else settled for it, blah blah blah. One more question. If the pattern is the thing that must be done, why has the government never even once offered a 5 year contract through this ordeal when every other union got that?”

The government initially offered a 10 year deal, which the BCTF immediately rejected, because ‘it wouldn’t work for them’. Yeah, 10 years without having to hear from the whiny BCTF would be horrible, wouldn’t it?

You may not care about how much this settlement costs taxpayers, but there are lots of people who realize that the public purse is not an endless supply of money.

Slinky: “I spend more than 300 bucks a month on coffee”

I spend 1/10th of that, make it myself, and it’s better than any barista could brew. Bragging about spending $300 on coffee? No wonder you need a break on your taxes.

Parents shouldn’t have to fight for independent learning plans for their children.

So Slinky you don’t mind Christy going on vacation with your tax dollars then, that to me will make me more heated then what the BCTF is asking.

$300 bucks your coffee must be made of bat dung. I heard it’s the best coffee.

I find B52 coffee to be the best followed closely by Spanish coffee.

Posted on Saturday, September 6, 2014 @ 8:58 AM by interceptor
Theif – one who commits theft or larceny.
Arguably many of the old time teachers that have been doing it for years, have lesson plans ready, get their kids to mark tests etc. They are mailing in 5 hours a day for the top end of the salary scale. And yes, there are quite a few of them. Why teachers don’t self regulate is beyond me. Must be a fear of being blackballed by the union bullies?

The government dictates what lesson plan is going to be taught. Common knowledge is you actually researched it.

Here’s another point regarding the court decision which is being appealed by the government. The government claims that their legislation banning the negotiation of class size and composition was legal. Essentially, that is the crux of their appeal. Out of the other side of their mouths they want BCTF to negotiate away their right (which the government says they don’t have)to do this. Quite interesting that, the government says “You don’t have the right to negotiate that so lets negotiate it anyway.” What an interesting approach to labour relations.

Test

How to make a link in new format of 250news.com.
Read Example 1 in this lesson:

Lesson 8: Links in HTML