I see no issue with raising the minimum wage as the cost of living keeps growing (and will continue to do so) In leaps and bounds. The only way a minimum wage worker can currently sustain themselves is by either living rent free (at home with parents) or by crowding into a place with many others.
One other move I personally would love to see would be a move by the govt to supply some free post secondary education. Something in the form of a credit towards a certified trade. The govt likes to advertise that we our becoming critically short on trades people, and talk about ending poverty. Well, make it possible for anyone (willing to) to better their situation.
I highly doubt that any min. wage worker could save enough to put toward education if they live with having to pay household bills, feed their kids etc.
Applaud the move towards higher minimum wage? ..Yes, but it cannot stop there. Ending poverty will take some serious movement on the part of the govt at both the federal and provincial levels. Abolish the “free ride” system of welfare and get all able bodies out there working to free up valuable tax dollars to keep the ball rolling. Other countries can do it, so can we.
But that is just my opinion.

All wages, whether they’re at the minimum level or higher are a ‘cost’ to the business that pays them, and if that business is to stay in business all ‘costs’ have to be fully recovered in ‘prices’. If ‘prices’ increased exactly the same amount that the added ‘cost’ of an increased wage did, all that would happen is that we all get to work with bigger figures. Some might feel better about that, but the net benefit is nil. That won’t happen, because there are ADDITIONAL ‘costs’ associated with a wage increase, and those ‘costs’ will push up ‘prices’ higher than the increased incomes still available to meet them. We all recognise there’s a problem with an ever rising number of lower income people being able to make ends meet. But the traditional way we attempt to solve this problem simply doesn’t work. We can see that clearly by looking at the constant call for an accelerated future increase in minimum wage now being made not that long after the rise to the current level was supposed to do such wonders. But didn’t. Time to look elsewhere for a solution.

We have a very large “public sector”. IF the minimum wage is raised by almost 50%, does anybody really expect that our public sector unions won’t demand wages increases that match the rise in the minimum wage?

Taking socreds comment one step further, businesses will not only be faced with much higher wage costs for their employees, they will be saddled with higher taxes to support the increased costs to our public sector. Higher prices will follow as the business deals with remaining solvent!

Round and round and round we go, and where we stop, nobody knows!

watchdog:-” Abolish the “free ride” system of welfare and get all able bodies out there working to free up valuable tax dollars to keep the ball rolling. Other countries can do it, so can we. ”
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Sounds wonderful, but it simply doesn’t work. Separate the ‘moral’ question of the justice supposedly involved in whether somebody’s getting a “free ride” or not, from the ‘economic’ question of whether we actually NEED to have 100% of those who can work actually working to produce and provide everything we all need and desire. If we DO actually NEED that, then we must be a terribly inefficient country so far as our production of actual goods and services is concerned.

That’s right, Hart Guy. But even looking at the issue without the public sector and other unions all wanting an increase, too, if the minimum wage rose, just the additional costs of employer paid EI ($ 1.40/employer vs.every $ 1.00 deducted from employee, on the higher gross) and WorkSafe premiums (100% employer paid based on a percentage of total gross payroll, which has then increased), are going to increase the gap between total incomes and total prices that have to be met from them. And we do still have a ‘graduated’ income tax. The more one makes, the greater the PERCENTAGE of it the government taketh. The solution, as I said before, lies elsewhere. It ISN’T going to be found the way the socialists and their fellow travellers think they can do it.

When a large business can afford to give the higher ups 6 figure salaries and huge bonuses while paying their workers next to nothing, then I say they can take the hit. Small business will be the only one’s to feel the real pinch. Maybe this could be the push for govt to give bigger breaks through taxation to small businesses. We have been giving insane breaks to big business long enough, yet whenever possible they pay their employees very little.
While I too fear that there is the possibilty that a hike in min wage may only serve to raise prices, this is most likely as much fear mongering as it is truth. How many executives are really worth over $100k+ a year? The few that I know certainly dont work more than a 40hr work week, do they really show that hey are worth this pay? As the saying goes “the rich get richer and the poor get poorer” the middle class wage earners are becoming extinct as the gap between rich and poor accelerates. Tax breaks and corporate subsidizing needs an overhaul, the way I see it. Meanwhile, those who are trying to claw enough together on min wage to pay rent, food, utilities and transportation costs will be hoping this goes through.

Socredible: if every able bodied welfare recipient was forced to participate in the workforce (ie: welfare work projects) in order to get pay, then they would be further motivated to attempt to get a better paying job if they have to put out that amount of effort. Regardless of whether it motivates them, we the taxpayers would get something out of a system which currently promotes abuse of it without any real return for the dollar.

Hart Guy: You have a serious hate-on for people in the public sector. You should come to grips with the fact that the public sector is a necessary evil. Cops, ambulance, your garbage truck driver, the the nurses who may save your life..Do you hate them all? If so, I feel for you. Get counselling before you go “postal” oh yeah, they are public sector too. If any of your family became a public sector worker, I fear that you may disown them.

socredible:

“If ‘prices’ increased exactly the same amount that the added ‘cost’ of an increased wage did, all that would happen is that we all get to work with bigger figures.”

That’s not what is happening now. The prices are going up constantly, why, we don’t know exactly. The problem is, that wages are not going up in concert with them.
We need to know why goods are increasing as much as they are and maybe put some brakes on that first, in order to have a real gain in increased wages.

Is there a correlation between having the lowest minimum wage and the highest child poverty rate ? Just remember the next time a woman serves you some fast food or cleans up after you in your hotel room . Not only is she being short changed but her children are living in poverty . Cristy Clark the child starver . Has she ever missed a meal ? I doubt it .

I am not sure what meaningful measure (such as the cost of some standard food items such as milk, bread, butter, cheese, peas, you name your own “basket”) those minimum wages can be compared to. No one can tell me that the basic items will cost the same across Canada, especially remote territories and rural communities.

Some will have subsidies for low income families that will offset some of those differences, some will have different sales taxes on non-food items.

For different reasons, I am with socredible, minimum wage is a useless tool to hang onto.

Start fresh. What is it we want to accomplish, and how are we going to accomplish it?

There is a direct correlation between child poverty rate and unemployment rate. That is based on national averages, not by province/territory.

To start with, there is no official government definition and therefore, measure, for poverty in Canada. That is the first challenge we have in making any comparative statements from province to province to territories.

When looking at provinces like BC, one has to look at things such as the population differences of urban versus remote living, high First Nations population, high differences of children born into various ethnic groups, high elderly population, etc. These topics all become very controversial for those who want to be politically correct. Without facing the truths, one cannot start to solve ANY problem head on and expect to be successful.

Watchdog, you ask “How many executives are really worth over $100k+ a year? The few that I know certainly don’t work more than a 40hr work week, do they really show that hey are worth this pay?”

I know a lot of public sector workers that pull in over $100k per year! They certainly don’t work over 40 hours per week. Perhaps you might ask if they are worth over $100k per year?

I also know a lot of people that work in our sawmills and pulp mills and many of them also pull in over 100k per year. Some of them joke that the hardest work they do all day is trying to “look busy”! Most certainly don’t work more than 40 hours per week. Perhaps you might ask if they are worth over $100k per year?

The problem that I have with the public sector is that it continues to grow in size, regardless of economic conditions. Wage and benefit packages also continue to grow, again regardless of economic conditions.

We have seen massive layoffs in the energy sector due to declining oil prices. God forbid that we ask for some review of our public sector, the size of the public sector workforce and the wages and benefits paid to this sector of our economy?

Watchdog, last week I stopped by the Government Liquor Store in the Hart. When I walked in the door, I walked past a clerk who was putting some stock on the shelves. Another clerk was doing the same, further towards the back of the store. Yet another was sitting in the office section. Not a single one said hello or acknowledged me in any way. I picked up some beer and a bottle of wine, walked back to the front of the store and placed my items on the counter. Eventually one of the employees sauntered over to the till and rang through my items. She told me my total, I paid by credit card and left.

Contrast that with the staff at the Hart Home Hardware store. When I entered the business the same day, all three staff members at the front counter greeted me, saying things like “hello, hi, how are you today?”.

When I took my times to the till, I was asked if I found everything that I was looking for? After I was paid, they said goodbye and things like “have a nice day” and “thanks for coming in”!

Funny how the lower paid clerks at the Hart Home Hardware are able to greet and engage a customer AND thank them for their business, but our well paid Government clerks can’t be bothered!

I really hate the term child poverty.
It is inaccurate and deceptive.

Children do not earn income or have expenses, therefore they cannot be categorized in economic terms.

Children can be in poverty stricken family groups, certainly. To imply that they are the ones that can do anything about it is absurd.

“Child Poverty” is a term used by politicians and a marketers to tug on the heart strings for the intended sympathy reaction. Suckers.

IMHO, the minimum wage is too high as it is. One cannot live on minimum wage, it is not a livable wage and never was intended as such. If this is your situation, then you need to get training, credentials, and certifications to increase your employability and income potential.

If you choose not to get those employment requirements, it is your choice to continue earning minimum wage. It is a choice that I am tired of paying for. Get off your butt, get to a training facility and quit your whining.

Governments of Canada, and BC have this jobs plan thingy where the government will pay the shot, so what is your lame excuse. What, you will do it later. Enjoy your minimum wage bud.
It is going to cut into time with buddies?
Too bad, so sad, your lazy drinking/drugging buddies will hold you down.

Watchdog:- “When a large business can afford to give the higher ups 6 figure salaries and huge bonuses while paying their workers next to nothing, then I say they can take the hit. Small business will be the only one’s to feel the real pinch. Maybe this could be the push for govt to give bigger breaks through taxation to small businesses. We have been giving insane breaks to big business long enough, yet whenever possible they pay their employees very little.”

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Well, Watchdog, I happen to own a small business. One that pays considerably more than minimum wage to those that work in it, and always has. The only break the government could give me on my business taxation is on my property tax, which rises consistently. Yet is not tied in any way to the ability of my business to generate the earnings to pay it. It’s based on an arbitrary assessment. So far as income taxes on small business corporations are concerned, even the socialist NDP lowered them when they were last in office here ~ there’s simply no more sense in trying to flog a dead horse than there is to try and wring income taxes out of earnings that just aren’t there. But with property tax, it’s pay up or lose your land. And then they wonder why there’s corporate concentration. I think if you study the matter closely you’ll find that business profits taken AS A PERCENTAGE OF SALES are generally falling, not rising. For all businesses.

Give More:-” The prices are going up constantly, why, we don’t know exactly. The problem is, that wages are not going up in concert with them.
We need to know why goods are increasing as much as they are and maybe put some brakes on that first, in order to have a real gain in increased wages.”
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Wages can’t go up in concert with them, Give More, because there are a large number of business ‘costs’ constantly coming forward into prices which are ‘allocated’ and not ‘distributed’ to anyone as CURRENT incomes. That these ‘costs’ WERE, at some time in the PAST, distributed as incomes, is largely immaterial. Most of them are represented by what we would call ‘Capital Costs’, business expenses for “things to make things with”, and when they were distributed as incomes they were spent as received AT THAT TIME on things which most of us need or want, i.e. consumer goods (and services), and raised the prices of THOSE goods and services AT THAT TIME. We really can’t solve the problem the way we’ve been trying to do it. If minimum went to $15 an hour, I’ll bet you right now there’d be a call for it to be $ 20 within a year. And so on. All that is is pure ‘inflation’. Nobody wins, we all lose.

Watchdog:-“Socredible: if every able bodied welfare recipient was forced to participate in the workforce (ie: welfare work projects) in order to get pay, then they would be further motivated to attempt to get a better paying job if they have to put out that amount of effort. Regardless of whether it motivates them, we the taxpayers would get something out of a system which currently promotes abuse of it without any real return for the dollar.”
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Former Social Credit Cabinet Ministers Bill Vander Zalm and Phil Gaglardi both espoused exactly what you’re saying, Watchdog. But what sounds so sensible in theory simply failed to work out in practice when both tried to do what you’re advocating. You have to look at ALL the components of ‘costs’, and there is a lot more than the CURRENT labor component to them. Which means, in effect, that incomes gained from labor are, in total, are always going to be insufficient to fully liquidate the overall ‘costs’ that flow through into ‘prices and ‘taxes’.

How poverty is tracked can sometimes be misleading.

Take for example Richmond, BC. Statistics Canada continues to show the entire city of Richmond as one of the poorest cities in BC, yet it has the third highest prices for single-family dwellings, only behind Vancouver and West Vancouver.

How is that possible? Albert Lo, head of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, says people are underreporting income. Quite often the head of the family works in the USA, China or East Asia to make money, while Richmond ends up with the spouse and children. No income money is declared. No taxes paid. Social services and health care delivered for free.

To a number cruncher at Statistics Canada, they’re in poverty, but they’re skewing the numbers in the wrong direction.

“If you choose not to get those employment requirements, it is your choice to continue earning minimum wage.”

Seems you forget that it is not everyone’s choice, Loki. It is all too often someone fate in life whether they are seniors with only a government OAS, on WCB disability when they are being paid the least that WorkSafeBC can get away with …. the variables are endless.

To imply that it is always by choice, or most of the time by choice is totally ignorant of the real situation.

Business in BC will go broke and move to Alberta if the min wage is increased.

So let me get this right. If we raise the min wage in B.C all the Business will move from a right wing governed province to an evil socialist governed province that just raised its min wage. Very Interesting, and where are all the Business going to go when we elect a federal NDP government?

Seniors have made their bed by choosing their retirement financial plan, such as it is. Also, seniors have deteriorating health and would only be physically able to work in minimum wage scenarios.

The WCB scenario is a bit of a sticky wicket because if one is receiving WCB, then they are precluded from any employment due to an injury claim, and so should not be employed at any wage.

As to your assertion of fate: I spit in the face of fate, I will create my own fate thank you very much. Even the bible says that we are born to free choice. Any one who allows the fates to determine their conditions with full acceptance deserves the fate provided.

74% of all employment in the future will require some form of post secondary training. Do you want to be part of the 60 to 80% of job seekers competing for those 26% of jobs that do not require training or skills?
What kind of income can one expect in a no skill/low skill employment?
What does your employment security look like?
What does your financial security look like?
What is your self worth if all you can get is intermittent low wage jobs?

“If you don’t design your own life plan, chances are you will fall into someone else’s plan, and guess what they have in store for you?

Not much.”

Jim Rohn

Socredible: I love how you keep trying to teach this rabble macro economics. Your messaging has been consistent and text book correct.
You could probably copy and paste most of your previous posts it is so consistent.

What would you expect from union, and mill production workers with no more future planning interest than 1 box of beer or two and a mickey for the weekend.

These are the same folks that have payments on a new truck, new quad, new sled and mortgage on a half million dollar city lot they cannot afford to furnish.

Flame suit on.

People these days believe they are entitled to everything these days. And the financial institutions feed that belief with easy credit. This generation can have zero credit, and even if your mama or your dog wont lend you money, you can still drive a brand new Dodge. 4 kids and have never had a job ? No problem….the government will raise your kids. And buy your ugly tattoos.

The amount of people that are lined up in front of Tim Hortons every day I would say that they would have no problem paying $15 an hr. but they don’t have too because Harper made sure of that with the TFW program.

13 States in the USA raised their minimum wage, and the results are not what the doom and gloom “job killers” had imagined. In fact economic activity in the majority of those 13 States increase compared to States that did not increase their minimum wage.

New Zealand increase it’s minimum wage to $14.75 per hour, with no increase in the prices of fast food in outlets like MacDonalds, where the price of a Big Mac remains reasonable to prices in other countries like Canada and the USA, where minimum wage is far lower than $14.75 an hour.

http: //mic.com/articles/92983/here-s-what-is-happening-to-the-states-that-increased-minimum-wage-this-year

Carry on with your unsubstantiated “opinions”, and “beliefs” that increasing minimum wage will detrimentally effect jobs and the economy.

Thanks, Loki. I know you’re absolutely right, but I somehow feel I should still try. At some point, and I don’t know when it will be, enough people are finally going to realise that raising wages just isn’t the solution they’re so sure it’s going to be. Wages today, at whatever level they’re at on average, are still only a PART, and with ongoing technological advancement an ever declining part in total, of ALL the costs that flow through into prices. No matter how high they’re raised, a ‘part’ of something that’s still only a ‘part’ of it, is never going to be able to pay for ‘all’ of it.

Digitus:-“People these days believe they are entitled to everything these days. And the financial institutions feed that belief with easy credit. This generation can have zero credit, and even if your mama or your dog wont lend you money, you can still drive a brand new Dodge.”
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How many people would still be working these days if financial institutions DIDN’T feed that belief with easy credit? The traditional theory of economics held that all costs could be fully liquidated in price. Costs=incomes=spending from incomes. We don’t make Dodge trucks or anything else simply so someone can have a job. We ‘produce’ to ‘consume’. And we’ve long ago solved most every ‘production’ problem that resulted in any actual scarcity of anything. Today a glut, of Dodge trucks, gas or diesel to run them with, and everything else is a far bigger problem. We know how to ‘produce’ it, but we’ve never solved the problem of how to ‘distribute’ it. And the agency of distribution is ‘money’. Why should we ever have to ‘borrow’ to consume, when clearly the actual costs of poduction ~ the physical costs ~ must have all been met in the course of that production, or it couldn’t have occurred. For there is no such thing as a ‘debt’ in nature. ‘Money’ is supposed to be an accurate numerical REFLECTION of physical reality. Why don’t we make it so? It’s really not that hard to do.

f-150:-“…and where are all the Business going to go when we elect a federal NDP government?”

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A lot of them will go out of business. More will be bought up by larger businesses, as corporate concentration towards monopoly continues, likely at an accelerated pace. The NDP will publicly deplore this, but they won’t ever do anything about it because they’ll be too busy thinking of all the tax dollars they’ll be able to get off the larger business. To fund all those wonderful social programs to provide things that people used to be able provide for themselves. Even so, they’ll still not be able to fully fund them, and so deficits will rise, and then we’ll have to see some form of austerity. Like the Greeks might be facing. Or those who really call the shots, our financial overlords, who are just as comfortable with a socialist government as they are with a right wing one, maybe even more so, will do horrible things to us.

Sophic Sage:-“Carry on with your unsubstantiated “opinions”, and “beliefs” that increasing minimum wage will detrimentally effect jobs and the economy.”
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Do we have more or less child poverty today with the minimum wage where it now is than we did when it was half that amount? Do we have more or less homelessness today than we did in times past? If raising the minimum wage to its current level DIDN’T make things better, in total, for those most in need, but rather, (if we’re to believe those on the ‘left’ the situation is actually worse), what makes you so sure making the minimum $ 15 an hour isn’t going to only bring added misery? At best, Sophic, it would allow the recipients to indebt themselves still further just to live. That’s no solution. But then the NDP and the big banks always did make strange bedfellows, didn’t they? And the Greens still stranger.

Umm.. why did only present the minimum wage part of the equation socredible? Why no mention of the increases in hydro, food, rent, or other esstential, over the years. This is the primary reason why so many children live in poverty, minimum wage increases have never come close to keeping up with the inflationary costs of the essentials of life.

When a government set a minimum wage at $10.00 per hour, what it is doing is legislating poverty!

Socredible , the population , lucky for you and me , is increasing . Ip so facto we gets mo of every thing . Are you texting from a cave ?

Socredible , don’t worry about the Greens . They just make sense . Who needs that eh ?

Very few of their ideas make sense, Ataloss. Not when examined closely in light of the actual ‘big picture’. And they’ll never bite the ‘financial’ hand that feeds them. And that’s going to be their undoing as a means to effect any needed real changes.

The Greens don’t owe anyone any thing . That’s the beauty . Pure logic . If it doesn’t make sense ,it doesn’t matter .

Sophic:_ “Umm.. why did only present the minimum wage part of the equation socredible? Why no mention of the increases in hydro, food, rent, or other esstential, over the years. This is the primary reason why so many children live in poverty, minimum wage increases have never come close to keeping up with the inflationary costs of the essentials of life. ”
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And they NEVER will, Sophic. Because, if for no other reasons, and there are many, there is a large difference between ‘gross’ and ‘net’ pay. And on top of ‘gross’ pay there are a whole bunch of other increased costs when minimum wage goes up that have to then flow through into prices. Or the employer, if he’s not lucky enough to have some people with six figure salaries on staff he can eliminate of cut back, (and that’s most employers), goes titters.

We could carry on this argument ad infinitum, because it is of a similar nature to the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” one. The simple fact of the matter is that in regards to that latter, ‘production’, of anything, is a continuously dynamic process. No one knows where or when it started, or when it will ever stop. We ‘produce’ to ‘consume’. There’s no other sane reason for so doing. That being so, we should always be able to fully pay FOR what we’ve done, individually or as a society, FROM what we’ve done. Not from what we’re doing, or are going to have to do. And today we increasingly can’t. If ALL costs are included in prices, but only a PART of those costs are distributed to people as current incomes, there is always going to be a gap between the two. Currently we bridge that gap with increased indebtedness. Raising the minimum wage will only increase that indebtedness further, and increase the control those who have a monopoly on its issue have over us and our government. We’ve got to look beyond that. What is needed is a different way to augment earned incomes that is NOT going to be costed into prices. Nothing else will be found to work. But don’t take my word for it, raise your minimum wage, to $ 15, then $ 25, then $ 40 an hour and just see how much better off you are!

There you go again socredible; falling back on that same old minimum wage raise will cause increased prices, or minimum wage increase will kill jobs. The very same two issues I attempted to address in my 7:37 pm comment. Might want to read that comment or, for your convenience, here is the link again:

http: //mic.com/articles/92983/here-s-what-is-happening-to-the-states-that-increased-minimum-wage-this-year

No price increases, no doom and gloom job killing caused by minimum wage increases, but “fear of it” is something to be peddled and sold by some on this site… I suppose.

Ataloss:-“The Greens don’t owe anyone any thing . That’s the beauty . Pure logic . If it doesn’t make sense ,it doesn’t matter .
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You are in for a very rude awakening one day, if you truly believe that. You ought to look at just where the dough comes from to fund your Greens. The ‘real’ dough, not the pittance they raise by selling Party memberships. You might get your eyes opened. Pangs of conscience by some of the world’s historic worst polluters? Or an attitude like, “I’ve got mine, and I intend to keep it.”?

Sophic:-“No price increases, no doom and gloom job killing caused by minimum wage increases, but “fear of it” is something to be peddled and sold by some on this site… I suppose.”
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Inflation comes in many forms, Sophic, but usually it arrives first under the disguise of prosperity. Which it’s shortly found out to be anything but. That’s the amazing thing between those on the ‘left’ and those who see themselves as being on the ‘right’. Guys like Gordon Campbell, say. Neither seem to be able to discern that inflation and prosperity are two very different things.