Some Vets Not Keen On Plans For Veterans Plaza

Monday, July 21, 2008 03:58 AM

Consultant Erik Lees and City Parks Planner Laurie Kosec talk about the potential upgrades to the cenotaph and Veteran's Plaza (photo Opinion 250 staff)

Prince George, B.C. – Members of the Prince George Legion are not exactly thrilled with some of the plans for the Veteran’s Plaza in front of City Hall.

Under the Province’s “Spirit Square” funding the City has received half a million dollars. One of the conditions of getting that funding is that any design include Native Art. “I think that would give some people recognition over and above others” commented one Legion member attending a session with the square design consultants “All who served are recognized on the cenotaph, maybe someone should tell the First Nations this is their cenotaph too.”

There are five goals for the revamped Veteran’s Plaza:

Create an urban plaza that will be the “place to be”
Honour the historical significance of the site as well as the natural and cultural features of the community.
Design a comfortable space with amenities that attract people and activities.
Incorporate details throughout reflective of a high level landscaping treatment.

The designers, Lees and Associates of Vancouver, say there is money available through Veterans Affairs Cenotaph, Monument Restoration Program to upgrade just the cenotaph.

Those who attended the afternoon session on Friday expressed a variety of concerns about the possible changes to the area. One man said he takes his children to the ceremonies every November and he says the condition of the cenotaph is embarrassing, a woman noted she would like to see the area developed to encourage lots of people to spend time in the plaza so the less desirables wouldn’t be so likely to show up.

The designers say while there is no plan yet, ( conceptual drawings will be presented in about a month) ideas would see wheelchair accessibility, improved space around the flags, benches, new types of shrubs to reduce the number of hiding places, paths to accommodate pedestrian travel through the area.

The Request for Proposals had some specifics:

This Veteran’s Plaza upgrade is driven by the provincial ‘Spirit Square’ initiative to support the creation or improvement of civic squares. The development of this design will be shaped around the vision of Veteran’s Plaza as a ‘place to be’ that identifies the community of Prince George throughout various themes and elements. The urban plaza would be suitable for special occasions such as community celebrations and commemorations, along with the informal park use of the area. The design must also carefully balance the need to retain the ‘signature’ elm trees while establishing a more urbanized plaza area.

“It needs to be a comfortable, informal park” says consultant Erik Lees, but even though the landscape changes would be to reduce undesirable activity, he admits the changes will do nothing to address the social problems which plague the area. Even as design consultants talked with Legion members at the Cenotaph, homeless people were sleeping under the trees, and earlier in the day Lees said they witnessed drug activity.

The Legion members are very concerned about increasing the level and type of activity in the plaza. “I am not against remodelling the cenotaph” said one man “but to increase the level of activity in the area will make the cenotaph lose some significance, after all, this is not a playground it is a tombstone.”

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Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 03:58 AM in News by 250 News

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Comments

Posted by: giterdun on July 21 2008 7:51 AM

Here we go again... Native - Native - Native. Taxpayers are getting sick of it. Time to declare war on our idiotic bureaucrates. If they have nothing better to do than dream up these rediculous schemes then they should be sent kicking horse turds down the street. This cenotaph commerates all races of people who paid a sacrifice during the war. This is not a Native art center. That should be built in Shelley by the Natives themselves. Quit trying to stuff this bu77s4it down our throats.

Posted by: lmorg on July 21 2008 8:36 AM

Our cenotaph is an embarassment compared to other towns the size of Prince George. It looks like two outdoor barbeques stuck side by side.

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 8:53 AM

If the Cenotaph is for First Nations too, exactly what is the objection to including their art forms? Why would Second Nations art forms be acceptable, as represented in the fundamental design, but First Nations art forms be objectionable anywhere around it?

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 9:01 AM

Oh, and as a taxpayer, I am not sick of it!

I did not realise that First Nations servicement only fought to protect the Shelley Reserve. I thought they fought for Canada, all of it, the whole country, everywhere. I always thought First Nations people also paid the ultimate sacrifice during The War. Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought that meant their sacrifice should be honoured not represented as "bu77s4it". I thought that those of us who live in freedom as a result of the deaths of these First Nations servicement, should be respectful of their sacrifice, not treat it with the contempt that giterdun displays.

If giterdun wants to be kicked down the street by bureaucrates (sic), then he should lie down in front of the Cenotaph, and some of us non-bureacrats can join in as well, with distinct pleasure.

Posted by: diplomat on July 21 2008 9:57 AM

"Even as design consultants talked with Legion members at the Cenotaph, homeless people were sleeping under the trees, and earlier in the day Lees said they witnessed drug activity."

Well, there you have it! They are putting the cart in front of the horse again! It is obvious (at least to some people) that it would be smarter to address the issues of homelessness and drug activity FIRST, before putting another half a million bucks into uprooting existing shrubbery and replacing it with some behind which people can't hide - if there even is such a thing!

The arguments about First Nations and Second Nations human beings are beginning to sound like a record player with the needle stuck in a groove, for Pete's sake!

Labeling people as per race, origin and priority can have more bad consequences than good ones!

We are all Canadians. Make the design reflect that fact, no special exceptions given to anyone or any special interest groups.

The Canadian flag is a good example. It represents all of Canada. There are no special design elements on it for some who demand to be given more than the recognition all of us receive EQUALLY.

Posted by: owl on July 21 2008 10:47 AM

These people have to be joking .... changing the park to get rid of the "less desirables" ..... sounds like they are a leper colony of old .....

We really have not come very far as a society haver we?

And we certainly have not trained our urban planners very well if they think that this kind of planning will change the use of the area. In fact, it might do the opposite and I defy any one of them to guarantee that change with a 100% performance bond of their fees. That will make them think a little harder about what they utter out of their mouths.

These days they also need to be carefull tht they do not make the area more skateable. Skateboarders do not like grass. They love pavement, benches to jump up on, etc. etc.

I agree that the Cenotaph can be improved. I think it would be worthwhile to put a few hundred thousand dollars into a more apporpriate recognition of the wars and the role those who gave/give their lives play in them.

None of the locals have died in Afghanistan yet, but we could be adding new names there one of these days the way things are going.

Posted by: lostfaith on July 21 2008 10:55 AM

Ammonra

Giterdun has a valid point and your response to it is a little off the deepend.

So is it normal for the consultant to also be the designer?
Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

Lets do a memorial like the USA.
We can have life size bronze statues of all the races of Canadian people that fought for Canada, raising a Canadian flag on a flagpole.

Posted by: Bridge on July 21 2008 11:24 AM

Seems odd that veterans were not mentioned in the design. Seems we are making changes for all people.Maybe we are just more interested in getting votes at election time.

Cheers

Posted by: Bridge on July 21 2008 11:26 AM

City Council is paying $78 thousand dollars to a Vancouver consulting firm which proposes to look at the site with a view to making it more people friendly.

One block away at the Four Seasons pool or what ever they call it now they redesign it to make it people unfreindly?

In my battalion in Korea we had three native guys but we had lots of second generation polish, german, french, british and the list goes on. Should they too have their culture recognized if the cenotaph is redisigned. I thought we were all Canadians.

Veterans Affairs seems to have a lot of loose cash these days after depriving many veterans from the first world war the second world war and Korea of assistance that was badly needed by some veterns. Would it be because we are now engaged in a war that will never have an end.

Over one hundred thousand Canadians are buried around the world that died in combat. Their Mothers and Wives received a telligram when they died. Today the all of Canada seems to mourn when another Canadian arrive home in a casket from Afganastan. Politics is alive and well.

Cheers

Posted by: lmorg on July 21 2008 11:28 AM

Good idea lostfaith. A competant sculptor should be able to depict persons of various ethnic origins in such a tribute wearing the canadian uniform.

Posted by: giterdun on July 21 2008 11:58 AM

ammonra... Re read my post. It says.. "this cenotaph commerates all races of people who paid a sacriface during the war." This means people of all ethnic backgrounds including Natives. My point is... Why are we thinking of incluing only Native art and not the other nationalities. Treat everyone equal and we will all get along. So far this minority is getting most of the attention from the spineless bureaucrates. My fight is not with the Natives. It is with the government, that seems to be hell bent on promoting segregation. Different laws, different governments, Native only programs only go to pitting whiteys against indians. It is not healthy and has got to stop. If only our government would use common sense, it would go a long way towards settling this problem.

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 12:02 PM

No, giterdun does not have a valid point.

No matter how it is couched, nor under what circumstances, carping snide remarks are still carping snide remarks. He did not just express an opinion about the appropriateness of including First Nations art at the Cenotaph. If he had done so I may have responded, but it would have been different in tone. Instead he chose to include ignorantly insulting comments about the people involved in making the recomendation, and included an ignorantly offensive remark about First Nations having to build their own Cenotaph on a Reserve if they wanted specific recognition of their war dead.

www.spiritsquares.gov.bc.ca/docs/Spirit_Squares_Program_Guide.pdf

The url above is to the document outlining the Spirit Squares grant program in recognition of BC's 150th birthday. Note provision 1.3, last bullet.

If the Legion does not want First Nations art present at the Cenotaph, then turn down the grant. Then ask why a grant for a Spirit Square was requested in the first place, since First nations recognition is a fundamental part of it, and getting the $500,000 depends on it.

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 12:09 PM

Our posts crossed, giterdun.

You said more than that. You were grossly insulting to the planner and consultant, and insulted aboriginal war dead with your suggestion they should build their own Cenotaph.

Do you not think that comments like that are a part of the problem? Constant insults to First Nations exacerbate the ill feeling. How does a First Nations' person feel being told to build his own Cenotaph on a reserve, do you think? Does such a comment not infer, even if not meant, that First Nations' servicemen who died are second class? I suggest that is how such comments are viewed.

Posted by: Bridge on July 21 2008 1:30 PM

As a veteran I think the cenotaph is just fine it is typical of the cenotaphs across Canada. If it needs repair fine do it. Why would we spend a lot of money just to make ti user freindly. But our politicians dont care about veterans its about users and getting more tax dollars .

As we march on parade on November 11 it is gratifying to see thousnds of people in Prince George giving us recognition for our service to our country. Strange tho that the only time we ever see our Mayor marching with us is on an election year. Last year he gave the duty to councilor Zuroski and of course we will not see him this year as he will not be runing for office.

Cheers

Posted by: lostfaith on July 21 2008 1:43 PM

Ammonra
I don't believe Giterdun said the natives should build their own cenotaph.
I think he said they should build their own art center.
I also agree when he says the people that keep pushing this government sponsored racism should look for other work.

If whites were to have a whites only anything it would be considered racist. To have a native only anything is also considered racist.
For anyone, especially our own governments to keep pushing this racist agenda is criminal at best.

Posted by: Sparkle on July 21 2008 2:15 PM

How about lets keep the cenotaph the way it is. As Bridge says it is typical of all cenotaphs. Plus it has its own history which no one has informed us about. My grandfather is a veteran, and never talks of the war. I only asked once.

Improving its area will not bring peeps to the city center and "undesirables" will never go away.

If the city wants this money, the local first nations should have a say as to what art they want representing them... and this would include all reserves for miles, not just Shelley.

This art/ represtation could have many forms: environmental, social, lanscape, not just paint on a wall.

As for location, maybe a park in town needs some improvement. A family friendly place to go. I know I would not bring my daughter to PG's downtown after 5 pm.

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 2:19 PM

OK, he was referring to an art centre, point taken. The other point remains, why is aboriginal art unwelcome around the Cenotaph, when aboriginal people's lives lost in war is part of what it commemorates? By all means have an artistic rendition of all ethnic groups whose members gave up their lives, but what is wrong with First Nations being the first to do so?

I don't understand your reference to "native only" and racism. Nobody else has mentioned a native only project. Just because native art would be present does not mean the Cenotaph would be native only. Including aboriginal art does not make it racist, it diminishes the likelihood that it would appear to be so to aboriginal people. In other words, it would increase inclusion of all.

Posted by: Dozer on July 21 2008 2:23 PM

It is time all the people get treated equally. We are all Canadians I do not think the natives need more grants to build anything for thier own art center they have one at Bednestie lake which I have never seen open.Also the service station ect out there did not last long under native control.Mabey if the first nations started acting like Canadians they would get a little more respect and be treated a little different...

Posted by: giterdun on July 21 2008 2:27 PM

ammonra... Something tells me that you don't look so good. My Post... (in capitals so you can see it) "THIS IS NOT A NATIVE ART CENTER. THAT SHOULD BE BUILT IN SHELLEY BY THE NATIVES THEMSELVES." Next time you shoot off, do your homework. Like I have said many times before, I don't blame the Natives. I lay total blame on the Indian Industry, that is being perpetuated by Lawyers, Accountants, Greedy Native leaders and Short sighted bureaucrates.

Posted by: lostfaith on July 21 2008 3:08 PM

Ammonra
The point I was trying to make regarding native art and racism was, the only way the city can get funding for a spirit square is, if it includes native artwork.

Why doesn't it have to include Chinese artwork or Pakistani artwork or how about
Cajun artwork?
What about plain old whitemans artwork?

Another thing
What does a spirit square have to do with a Cenotaph anyway?
In my view the funds should be available to repair our existing infrastructure.

Posted by: giterdun on July 21 2008 3:18 PM

Hey doozer, don't get me goin' on Bednesti.

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 4:13 PM

giterdun emphasises his words, "THIS IS NOT A NATIVE ART CENTER. THAT SHOULD BE BUILT IN SHELLEY BY THE NATIVES THEMSELVES."

Why should a native art centre be built on the reserve at Shelley? Why can't it be built in Downtown Prince George, or the Pine Centre Mall, or anywhere else? Is that where you think a native art centre belongs?

As it happens there is a native art centre in the Native Friendship Centre. Visit it some time. Angelique's native art store may still be on George Street as well.

Posted by: diplomat on July 21 2008 4:24 PM

Ammonra: "OK, he (giterdun) was referring to an art centre, point taken."

Some people don't know when it is o.k. to apologize.

It's not that difficult...

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 4:25 PM

lostfaith says, "The point I was trying to make regarding native art and racism was, the only way the city can get funding for a spirit square is, if it includes native artwork."

A reasonable question. I believe it is because the Spirit Square program is in recognition of BC's 150th birthday, and the inclusion of aboriginal art is to recognise that aboriginal nations were already here. The other nations you mention were not.

However, whether that is the correct reason or not, it is written into the Spirit Square program that it must be included. If Prince George wants the money, then it must comply with the conditions. Foregoing the money is always an option if the conditions are not acceptable to the City.

Let me also say, since I have only expressed opinions on the inclusion of aboriginal art, that I tend to agree with the person who is quoted in the final paragraph of the article. I think a Cenotaph is a special memorial to the war dead. I do not believe that it is an appropriate focus for a recreational Town Square. The Spirit Square would be better located somewhere else. Perhaps the area of 3rd Ave in front of the courthouse where the Farmers' Market is held could be permanently blocked off and turned into a permanent people's meeting place instead.

Posted by: Bridge on July 21 2008 4:26 PM

Well we have certainly gotten a lot of irrelevent points across. Is there any wonder why our city is run the way it is. You people weather you realise it or not are a good representation of what goes on at City hall. All you seem to care about is getting your point across. Come on grow up and act like adults.

This feeling good about some of the post here may be OK down at the local pub. What our Council wants to get an argument going between us and then they can do just do what they want.

It is sheer stupidity to spend 500 thousand dollars on another park when the infrastucture in our City is falling apart. The City is incapable of looking after the parks that we have. If the City wants to spend more money on a park The Ginter property would be a great place to start.

Cheers

Posted by: ammonra on July 21 2008 4:26 PM

To diplomat:

Why would I apologise. Saying that a native art centre should be on a reserve is not much better than saying they should build their own Cenotaph. Keep them on the reserve where they belong, eh, is that it?

Posted by: Harbinger on July 21 2008 5:12 PM

Seems to me that Gordon Campbell is going to extremes and sucking up to to include First Nations culture (tee pees, birch bark canoes, totem poles, feathers, buckskin, etc) in every venue in hopes of getting his required peace during the upcoming Olympics. Maybe it will backfire. Time will tell. The Motor Vehicle branch here in PG has Aborignal Art galore. The First Nations didn't even have the wheel when the white people showed up centuries ago. Wheels? How ironic. It is to laff.

Posted by: onemansthoughts on July 21 2008 5:17 PM

We have plenty of artwork already. This is about the men of Canada looseing their lives. Artwork belongs in an art gallery.
By the way, does everyone work.. seems people have a lot of spare time to argue
on here?

Posted by: Harbinger on July 21 2008 5:55 PM

Argue? Tut. Tut. It is called democratic verbalized exercise. One of the few freedoms we have left in this country. Cheer up, lighten up, but for heaven's sake DON'T shut up!

Posted by: opinionated on July 21 2008 6:04 PM

I have one comment to make...What a bunch of racists. When are you people going to get it that people are people. There is good and bad in all.

Posted by: owl on July 21 2008 7:22 PM

lostfaith said: "So is it normal for the consultant to also be the designer?
Sounds like a conflict of interest to me."

Yes, it is not only normal, but also a requirement. Imagine if you want to have a house designed and you tell person A how you want it designed.

Then person A tells the designer what you want in the house.

The designer designs the house, and you do not like it. Who do you hold accountable, person A, or the designer?

If we but person B and C and D into the line you have the old church pew story. Whisper something in the ear of a person sitting on one end of the pew and then walk around to the other end of the pew and let that person tell you what he/she heard.

For anyone that reads the stuff on here, it should be obvious that thinkgs get lost in translation.

The designer is interested in designing something you want. In this case, the designer is interested in something people of many different wants want. That is not a conflict, that is a person doing the best work that they can do.

So, be more concerned about the qulity of the designer's past work. What was required, what was deliverd, were those who were consulted relatively happy with the product.

Posted by: owl on July 21 2008 7:44 PM

It is interesting that people in this community do not understand that visitors from other parts of the world want to see First Nations people, culture, art, etc.

If we do not respect their culture and art ourselves, then that reflects on the rest of us to the outside world.

These days that outside world is no longer just non-Canadians, it is also Canadians as well as BC inhabitants of the lower half of the province. Thus we continue to display to those individuals that we are simply a hick, red-necked town.

Looks like it might take another generation, maybe two if this is a subset of Prince George.

We may not have Native schools anymore that brainwash kids .... but we do have enough people around that simply do not understand what this is all about. You were all born 40 years too late. You could have practiced your racism much better then.

BTW, 1.3 states "recognize the unique history, culture and natural features of the community, including the contribution of Aboriginal people".

It does not remove anyone else, it simply makes a statment that First Nations should not be forgotten about. You should all know by now that is something we will have to put up with for a generation or two until more people get it. Once more people get it, then such obvious statements can be removed because it will be done naturally.

So, can we maybe all think a bit about what the blacks did? Remembering that our first governor of the province was a black person from the West Indies, and that the Giscome Trail is named after a black pioneer.

And the british, and the french, and the metis, and the chineses, and the norwegians, and the rest of the scandinavians, and the germans, and the italians, and those who were first second and third generation Canadians from the central and eastern provinces, etc. etc. and then there were plenty of people from the USA as well.

Look at the old census data and then look at the new data which shows where the dominant groups came from at one time and where they now come from.

This is a multicultural country. It is not a melting pot like the USA. We recognize and celebrate our roots. First Nations are part of those roots whether you like it or not.

Want to eradicate that? Revise history. How often has that been done in the world only for that history to be revived again eventually? Sometimes quite violently.

Posted by: lostfaith on July 21 2008 10:18 PM

Good post Owl but until our gov ends their racist policies in this country nothing will have a chance to change.

Posted by: meinbcbud on July 22 2008 7:41 AM

Lots of First Nation people fought and died in all the wars that Canada has fought to date. Many battles would not have been victorious if not for the fierceness of these people who would often fight right at the front line. They are just as Canadian as the representation we give all cultures in our great nation who fight for Canadian freedom far from home! Do the display you are planning, do not end it there.

Prince George, BC, more specifically the nation as a whole has a very diverse population; over history all of these cultures have been positively promoting Canada's image all over the globe by participating in our conflicts. Any display at city hall should reflect that thought and not exclude any cultures.

Posted by: diplomat on July 22 2008 9:17 AM

http://www.aboriginalbc.com/trellis/culturalcentres?gclid=CNfdhP7w05QCFScuagodgiehlg

There are native arts centers (on reserves) all over B.C. - so one on the Shelley reserve may have the potential to become a great tourist attraction and a real business opportunity!