I do not support this project by Shell. We do not need it for the cost to our environment. The cost is not worth either the jobs; the government revenue for the 604; nor is it worth the massive cost to our environment if it goes ahead. We have to draw the line somewhere IMO.

The same type of letters got sent to the politicians trying to put a stop to snowmobiling. After awhile these types of letters just get ignored. We always hear from the same population demographics that belong to nature clubs, buy bottled water and trot down to a local herb store for supplements. We like to get out in the snow and they don't like it, so we should stay home too.

Shell should ignore the letters, as in my experience they are usually full of nonsense and hearsay and old wives tails that depend on hysteria and Chicken Lttle stories.

Is Shell planning to send that coal bed methane gas to the Alberta tar sands - where they boil crude oil out of the sand so the Americans can keep driving their V8 gas guzzlers to get a six pack from the corner store?

More power to the protesters!

Appears the box is half full.

Cheers

You should have seen the first box they had. It was overflowing, so they got a bigger box based on the the rate they were receiving letters. For the time being, the rest of the box was full of methane.

;-)

http://sacredheadwaters.com

Looks like beautiful country. The type one would love to go snowmobiling through.

So why would snowmobiliers want to go snowmobiling through a countryside dotted with gas wells, pipelines and roads?

I suppose he does not snowmobile there so he really does not give a chit what happens in some other part of the country.

He must have forgotten that those people he described as writing the letters probably included more than just a few outdoor enthusiasts including hunters, fishermen, snowmobilers, etc.

FOr those of you who recall the ad by Horizon air to come to Prince George to see the Serengeti of Canada, I notice that this page says that the Spatsizi Wilderness is the Serengeti of Canada.

http://sacredheadwaters.com/home

I wish they would get straight where it is.

;-)

It seems that YDPC is a rogue member of the snowmobile riders in BC.

This is the view of the Outdoor Recreation Council (ORC) about BC's Endangered Rivers, which include the Stikine/Iskut River System

http://www.orcbc.ca/pdf/ER/2007/2006_%202007Suppliment.pdf

The connection with snowmobiles is that the BC Snowmobile Federation has a representative sitting on the ORC.

Must be one of those people that as YDPC puts it: "belong to nature clubs, buy bottled water and trot down to a local herb store for supplements."

And I am sure that he would agree that the BC Snowmobile Federation's postion on this is "full of nonsense and hearsay and old wives tails that depend on hysteria and Chicken Lttle stories"

;-)

YDPC,

Real outdoorsmen don't need snowmobiles. We use snowshoes.

In any case, this isn't a routine debate about use of the bush: the headwaters of THREE major river systems,all of them with anadromous fish, is a particularly sensitive area.

I wonder if the same purveyors of "environmental awareness" that came up with the names "Ancient Forests" for old, decadent trees; and the "Spirit Bear", you know, those albino ones that live in the "Great Bear Rainforest", dreamed up the name "Sacred Headwaters", too?

Agreed socredible... The environmentalists know how to play the game too. It's very easy to get behind protecting something called the 'Sacred Headwaters' even though you might not know anything else about it.

I wonder if the .. purveyors ... that came up with the names "Ancient Forests" for old, decadent trees;"

Actually I think those are the same people who came up with the name "elders" and "senior citizens" ... they are those who have an understanding of natural systems well as social systems and their interdependency of the various stages of life and recognize the importance of those various components.

Forgetting that and not understanding that is the sign that the system, whether natural or social is dying.

This is about energy. The energy to sustain life on this earth itself versus the energy to sustain a society which has a cancerous development which can end up eating the whole body.

The question is, do we let the cancer grow uncontrolled, or do we isolate it and remove it eventually.

This is a much bigger picture than many are able to udnerstand or want to understand probably because they are only here of some 80 years and that is all that is important to them.

Why do people think that the First Nations did not have their Vatican, their Mecca, their wailing wall and all those other sacred places of various cultures throughout this world?

Are you that insensitive about other people's culture? Anthropologists knwo full well that people who live and have lived close to the earth will idetnify such sacred places as being natural places, not man made place such as we do.

They are just as relevant, however. Unless of course you wish to be one of those who continues to promote cultural genocide.

Socredible
The white bears are not albino, they are a white phase of the common black.

In case anyone is interested in the science:

http://pubs.pembina.org/reports/cbmandsalmon-fs.pdf

In case anyone is interested in the Tahltan point of view.

http://www.sacredheadwaters.com/commentary

It states in part:

All of the impacts from all of the mines will destroy our environment. One of the greatest concerns to Aboriginal People is that roads increase access to traditional hunting areas and access for resource development into traditional territories. The Tahltan People have a deep connection to the land in which we live. The alteration and destruction of our land on Tahltan territory represents a personal, spiritual, traditional, and cultural loss to the Tahltan.

NO INDIGENOUS CULTURE COULD SURVIVE THE IMPACTS OF ALL OF THESE PROJECTS BEING DEVELOPED ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
Our people want a future, good jobs and to protect our lands and culture for generations to come. WE CAN DO THIS BY DEVELOPING ONE RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECT AT A TIME IN THE RIGHT LOCATION.

A good policy within Tahltan traditional territories is “sequential regional mining operations” so that the next 7 generations of Iskut, Dease Lake, and Telegraph Creek communities can still mine for copper, gold, and silver. Sequential mining will ensure that our resources will not be depleted within our life time. "
--------------------

So, everybody is up in arms about the government supporting industry when it comes to those things which matter to the WASP segement of our population. Remember Mackenzie. Or is that already out of sight and out of mind?

I do not read in any of that NO DEVELOPMENT.

Educate yourselves people! You are basically functionally illiterate for today's world.

Okay ... I have finshed exploring this on the net ....

here is the final bit of information:

"A 2008 resolution opposing Shell's drilling plans was officially endorsed by the Kitimat-Stikine Regional District, Skeena Queen Charlotte Regional District, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union, the village of Hazelton, British Columbia, the Town of Smithers and more than half a dozen First Nations band councils."

Something to watch. At the moment I would say Shell and the BC government have some fence mending to do if much more than exploratory work is to be done on this project.

When snowmobilers want to be careful of whether something will go ahead or not and if it goes ahead, how it will go ahead, you can be sure that the project is in trouble.

;-)

lostfaith:- "The white bears are not albino, they are a white phase of the common black."

Thanks, lostfaith, my mistake.

Owl wrote:-"This is about energy. The energy to sustain life on this earth itself versus the energy to sustain a society which has a cancerous development which can end up eating the whole body."
------------------------------------------
I wouldn't disagree with that, but I think you're probably thinking about it a bit differently than I am. Currently, we have to have that "cancerous development", which will indeed use up a great deal of energy needlessly, because we cannot conceive that there is a difference between 'real credit'(a correct estimate of the rate, or dynamic capacity of society to 'produce'), and 'financial credit. And that the latter is, or should be, only a 'reflection' of the former. Not something 'real' in itself.

To put it shortly, 'financially' we can't entirely pay FOR what we've done FROM what we've done. Only from what we're DOING, or are GOING TO HAVE TO DO. While 'physically' we do pay for what we've done from what we've done, or we couldn't do it. You can't eat tomorrow's meal today; it BECOMES today's meal.

In other words, the 'true cost' of ALL production over any given period of time is ALL consumption over that same period. That 'true cost' should be the basis of 'financial' price. It isn't. And so we have 'cancerous development', whether we 'really' need it or not, to try and bridge the 'financial' gap in the present by deferring it to the future.

I agree that our economic system is clogged up. It needs a good cleaning, hopefully in a gradual and supportive way rather than a revolutionary way.

As with everything else, we have to go back to the basics.

Why are we here?

What sustains us?

What can we do to assist in sustaining us?

What are the scientific and technological tools?

What are the social tools?

How do we ensure everyone plays a part, to the best of their ability, in assisting us to sustain us generation after generation?

How do we ensure everyone is dealt with in a dignified fashion?

I might have missed some, but those are the types of things which I think should concern everyone on this earth.

Nature runs beautifully. For millions of years it chugs along, a few catastrophes here, and a few rejuvenations there. All part of the system which is kept going on a daily basis by that single bundle of energy, the sun.

The Egyptians knew all along what God to worship. ~~)(~~

So, we have natural law, natural justice, natural medicine, natural teaching, natural childbirth, natural this and natural that.

Time for natural economics. Bring it back to economics based on social and environmental needs.

http://www.future500.org/speech/1

Here is what it states:
--------------------------

A few basic principles of Natural Economics.

(1) The acceptance of natural systems as the primary systems.
(2) Living off Natural Income, not Natural Capital.
(3) A re-evaluation of Value in modern society.
(4) Active reinvestment in the health of natural systems.
(5) A realization of the prime importance of resource productivity in production.
(6) A realization that consumption and accumulation of wealth cannot produce human happiness.
------------------------------
A key over-riding principle to keep in mind whenever one looks at options:

"Nature is always the main system, other man-made systems such as, for example, economic systems, can only be sub-systems.

If main system and sub-system collides, the sub-system cannot win, it will lose.

If the mother company/Nature goes bankrupt, all subsidiaries will go bankrupt along with it.

We cannot win a fight against Nature; we can only win the fight against ourselves and our own greed.

This is a fight which we must win by finding a way to operate human society in such a way that it can function within the tolerance limits, the carrying capacity of Nature for thousands and thousands of years.

Hopefully the Shell bosses use some common sense and ignore the box with letters.
Let's start drilling so we don't depend on foreign oil.

Depend on foreign oil??????

Good god!!!! With the oil sands we won't have to depend on foreing oil for a 100 years if we don't sell it.

This is Royal Dutch Shell!!! they will be exporting the gas. It is not for domestic consumption. Let the oil run out in the oil sands, the fields in Saskatchewan, offshore oil in Newfoundland and other oil yet to be brought to the surface as technolgy becomes cheaper and oil more expensive.

Royal Dutch bought out Shell Canada. This is a foreign company that will be employing a few people here for a few years, leaving some royalties behind in the provincial coffers, and taking home the rest of the winnings.

I am wondering how come there are still people around here that do not understand that we are an oil rich nation. We have a petro dollar. If we did not, our economy would not be off much better than that of the USA.

Don't take out more capital. Create more income from the capital we are taking out. Value added in other terms.

Is this so difficult to understand???

Owl, the wise one, said, "The Egyptians knew all along what God to worship. ~~)(~~ "

That was AmmonRa, I believe!

Dutch Shell sold oil to the Nazis during the Second World War. Does this count?

AmmonRa ...... nice one ... :-) .. ^5

Owl wrote:- "I agree that our economic system is clogged up. It needs a good cleaning, hopefully in a gradual and supportive way rather than a revolutionary way."

It's not so much our 'economic' system, Owl, which actually works pretty well, but rather our 'financial' system that needs correction.

Left alone it'll increasingly force us to try and keep living off our 'capital', rather than our 'income'. Simply because ongoing 'incomes', overall, continue to decline relative to the ongoing, overall 'financial' costs of production being impressed into prices.

A lot of what's charged into prices nowadays are allocated charges, like all 'depreciation charges', for instance. Which do not distribute 'incomes' to anyone in that cycle of production. They represent money that WAS distributed, at some time in the PAST, but, for the most part, was spent as received and is no longer available to meet 'costs' coming forward.

The old saying that "the world would gladly pay all its debts if only somebody would GIVE it the money" is probably never more true than it is today.

Nobody 'gives' it the 'money', so it can only repay what it has borrowed by borrowing more. As long as it can.

Someday we may finally wake up to the fact that what it's really 'borrowing' ISN'T something that's already existing, some 'money' someone else has, but is rather just an estimate of the capacity to repay.

An estmate that's currently NOT based as much on there being a continual 'real' demand for some product as it is on there being a continual 'EFFECTIVE demand' for that product.

In other words, the ability of consumers, or would-be consumers, to pay a price in 'money' sufficient to cover ALL that product's 'financial' costs.

A situation that makes the TERMS maker and the DEAL maker/breaker one and the same ~ those who currently hold a 'monopoly' of (financial) credit. That's a 'monopoly' that has to be broken if we're to ever have a sensible financial system that's truly an ongoing accurate reflection of physical reality.

Dutch Shell was one of many. It happens when a company has investments in a foreign country and those countries go to war with each other.

Standard Oil was in Germany at the time of Pearl Harbour and the US was forced into the war. So was General Motors and Ford. Bush's family had dealing with Krupp, I believe.

Just to name a few.

If I were concerned about companies supporting corrupt governments I would not have to go further than the country to the south of us and start with its government.

We are talking environment and community suppor here.

"Dutch Shell sold oil to the Nazis during the Second World War. Does this count?"


They were just playing the old Shell game.

Owl, the wise one, said, "The Egyptians knew all along what God to worship. ~~)(~~ "

That was AmmonRa, I believe!
------------------------------------------
Nowadays if you drop the "Ra" and put a "M" in front of the "A", you'll find they worship the same God a lot of people here seem to, too.

The last time people listen to 'nature' type people we let the pine beetle grow out of control because they had something against logging in a park. Enviromentalist ususally cause more damage than most.

Again, we have an emotional (in this case politically motivated) reaction rather than a scientific and factual reaction.

http://www.sampaa.org/PDF/ch9/9.3.pdf

As it states just below the middle of page 2:

"a popular misconception developed that the current mountain pine beetle outbreak began in Tweedsmuir Provincial Park. While the large infestation in Tweedsmuir has no doubt contributed to the beetle population in some areas of north-western British Columbia, infestation centres in many other lodgepole pine stands across the north central and southern part fo the province developed almost simultaneously and have rapidly grown beyond control. The infestation centres share management challenges with Tweedsmuir such as HISTORY OF FIRE CONTROL, ABUNDANT HOST, AND REMOTE LOCATION LIMITING ACCESS AND TREATMENT."

And, of course, warmer than normal winters.

Of course for Ludites who do not understand factual data and prefer to go with the rumour mill promulgated for political purposes, there is no way to talk sense to them.

Free Enterprise, you are right.

I say drill first, talk later.

And let's forget about that bs about Shell selling oil to the Nazis, fcol, that's over 64 years ago. Get real.

We need more of our OWN oil right now.
I'm getting sick of this NIMBY attitude around here.
Stop the wining, let's get at it and create jobs.

We DON'T need "more of our OWN oil right now." We have more than enough oil, there is no 'real' shortage of it in BC. No service stations have run dry, the delivery of home heating oil continues, lubricants and other petroleum based products, including plastics, are all still readily available.

What we DO need is a means for pricing that oil, OUR oil, to us, the final consumer of all the products made from it, in a way that reflects their true costs of production. Plus a reasonable profit for all involved, for no one expects them to work for nothing. Not a price based on what some speculators in London or New York have manipulated it up to.

Your call for more "jobs" is understandable, but ridiculous. The "jobs" we've got aren't returning the full "price" of the products they're making. How is "more jobs" going to change that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this drilling has nothing to do with oil.
They are after methane.

Precisely!!!!!!!!

As I keep saying, some people cannot read, refuse to read, and when they do read, do not retain the information they have read.

They are like bulls ..... wave a red cape in front of them and they charge. It is an automatic, emotional reaction.

Red capes = First Nations, environmentalists, taxes, consultants, BCLiberals, NDP, Federal Liberals, Conservatives, etc. etc.

And then there is YDPC who is in a category all by hisself.

;-)

I am not sure, but if they end up extracting methane, I would assume that it will be piped to Rupert where it will be liquified, put on a ship, and sent to purchasers in other countries.

I doubt we will see any of it in this part of the world since we have enough gas to last us for several decades.

As socredible says, I wonder how much of the pie of the final pricve we will get here via lease, royalties, salaries, business taxes, etc. and how much we have to put back in for infrastructure upgrades and social and envoronmental costs.

Where is the balance sheet on this business plan. Is this a good deal for all concerned.

You are all wrong.
This is only about making more money for some companies shareholders. They do not care about our land or what becomes of it. All they want is money.
As I keep saying, money is the root of all evil.
metalman.

Wrong Metalman, money is not the root of all evil.
Money does a lot of good in this world.
It is the l o v e of money that's the root of all evil.
Big difference!!

Ok, Socredible if jobs are not important tell me WHAT is?
I bet your idea is raise taxes and give and give and give some more...and keep giving.....I say, like old Bill Vanderzalm said: Give them a shovel.

No, HD, my idea is NOT to "raise taxes", and "give, give, and give some more..and keep giving". We are already grossly over-taxed in this country for what we get in return for them. I'd like to see ALL taxes either greatly reduced or completely eliminated

I'm glad you brought up Bill VanderZalm and the famous 'shovel' incident of long ago. It was a brilliant piece of politicing by VanderZalm when he publicly upstaged those 'unemployed' Lower Mainland protesters who did as he'd told them to do.

Who 'picked up their shovels' and marched down to his greenhouse and nursery business to apply for the jobs they knew didn't exist, only to find that his nursery manager, having been tipped off beforehand by VanderZalm, was prepared to hire every one of them.

That MOST of them didn't want to work was revealed in an instant for all to see on the evening news, when they refused the employment offered and through down their shovels in disgust, and sulked away. VanderZalm's political stock with the public soared, no doubt paving the way for him to become Premier later on.

The bigger story, however, was almost completely overlooked by the media. It appeared later, in the back pages of the Vancouver Sun. Written by one reporter who didn't leave when the protest fizzled, but noticed that a few of the protesters actually did accept employment and went to work.

They spent the rest of the day moving a large pile of mixed sawdust and manure from one section of the the nursery to the other. By hand, with shovels and a wheelbarrow.

At the end of the day he interviewed one of the new hires, and asked him what he thought of his 'job'. The young fellow said he was glad to have one, he'd been looking for one for some time without any success.

But then added that even though he didn't mind to work, what he and his co-workers had been doing all day, by hand, was utterly stupid. Because he, or any one of them, could have climbed on the tractor with the front end loader on it, and moved the pile it took them all day to do in less than ten minutes!

But, of course, if any one of them had done that, well, then they wouldn't have had 'jobs' any more, would they?

Nice story.