For The Price We Are Paying For The Backpacker Housing We Could Have Built 130 Units

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 03:45 AM

When you see the costs of the Backpacker/Friendship Lodge housing hitting $8million dollars you can’t help but wonder who is doing the planning for these projects?

The 8 mill will give us 30 units at about $266,000 each. Now let’s do some basic common sense thinking, we know that the wood industry is suffering badly in the province. We know that anything that we can build with wood will help workers keep jobs.

I took a look at what it costs to have a single storey home built by Winton Global Homes. Using the Willow Creek model which gave the residents 1033 sq ft. and using a final cost of $53,000 per unit, we could have built 100 units for $5.5 million.

Now if we want to go green (which we should) we could supply the facility of homes with one source of underground heating, provide one central location for a laundry facility and to my way of thinking still have a million left.

The backpacker idea may be okay but it is formed using Vancouver as a basis. We are not Vancouver we have lots of room, lots of open space and if you want to have someone show some pride in their living space what better a starting point than their own home?

If you deducted $1 million for heating and other servicing costs, we still could have built 132 units for the remaining 7 mill that we are dumping into the Friendship Lodge.

If we need someone on site to supervise those living there, then fair and well, make that, 131 units.

Have a problem with them being located in one area; spread them around the city to the areas in most need.

We are about to drop 8 million on a project that could have served our entire homelessness needs, all we needed to do is step back take some time and realize that in providing single detached housing we are helping the forest industry while at the same time providing housing to those in need.

Now if I could come up with that idea in an hour, just think of what could have been done had we thought about it over the last three years since the Friendship Lodge idea was developed?

I’m Meisner and that’s one man’s opinion.

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Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 03:45 AM in Views by Ben Meisner

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Comments

Posted by: szd on December 17 2008 5:41 AM

I don't think $53,000.00 gives you anything but a shell, what about windows, someone to build it, finishing, land etc. etc. When it went out for tender the city building trades were very busy and a labour premium was also being paid. No doubt we probably could have got more units per $ spent but your numbers are way out of line.

Posted by: metalman on December 17 2008 8:00 AM

szd, are you sure this project actually went out to tender? I thought that it was negotiated somehow. I think Ben's comments are correct, however you choose to do the math, we, as taxpayers, could have seen our 8 million spent more wisely, and in a fashion that would benefit more people.
metalman.

Posted by: Starbright on December 17 2008 8:20 AM

I agree with Ben, yes you could have easily spent the amount of 8 million dollars on affordable homes and still in part go green, not to the extent of a million on each home, but at least in part. I don't know who did the thinking on this project. Too bad the deal is done now.

Posted by: lifesucks on December 17 2008 8:36 AM

Ben you are right, but the city only sees BIG numbers costs for less work and productivity. I just hope that mayor Rogers does not follow in Kinsley's footsteps. We are sitting here looking at a very huge overcost on the Cameron Street bridge, we will be lucky to have it finished for the olympics. I think everyone on city council should wear paper bags on their heads so we do not know who they are. They go about things as if residents of P.G. are millionairs.

Posted by: diplomat on December 17 2008 9:35 AM

Who pays the 8 million? The city? My estimate would have been less than 2.5 million, key ready.

Posted by: gus on December 17 2008 9:42 AM

This Willow Creek model is only 816 square feet.

[url]http://www.wintonglobal.com/downloads/A4-TheWillowCreek.pdf[url]

Building 100 units, of whatever size, is not so called "green" since it would promote urban sprawl. Then there is the little matter of purchasing the land, getting it subidvided, engineering layout, building the roads, getting the services to it, building the driveways, fencing, putting in some grass, trees.

I doubt that for $53,000 one gets much of a foundation/basement, heating and plumbing system, electrical system. In fact, I do not expect to have flooring included.

I am with szd on this.

If the units really are that cheap and the p[rice all inclusive to turnkey standard, I would think that some of the bigger ones would be built by Winton Global rather than Heyer Homes. It would be the best kept secret in town.

Posted by: gus on December 17 2008 9:42 AM

http://www.wintonglobal.com/downloads/A4-TheWillowCreek.pdf

Posted by: Andyfreeze on December 17 2008 9:45 AM

Can't help wondering if this money would have been better spent on a place perhaps like Baldy Hughes?

Posted by: Bridge on December 17 2008 11:05 AM

I thknk that Ben has over simplefied this whole issue.

Fifty threee thousnan is only a skin. The gyproc may or may not comes with that costand the cost of drywall installation, there is the plumbinh, electrical, heating, landscaping and the cost of a lot.

And government contrcts are never cheap. There is little room for extras and they have to be built to specs. Then there is the question of who will occupy the building. Would a signal family plan be suitable when the occupants requrie constant supervision.

We alraedy have low cost single family housing in the area thats called the HOOD. and look at the disaster in that subdivision. Notice the low cost housing along Ospika. It is well maintained. The lawns and boulavards are mowed and the grass is green. The people that live there have some pride and feel part of the community.

Acoss the street we have a number of privately owned apartment buildings. The lawns are never cut and in some cases the winters gravel is the form of boulavard cover. So get back to the drwing board Ben give us the real cost.

cheers

Posted by: Rounder on December 17 2008 11:29 AM

Try using a squarefoot cost between $110 - $150/sqft. That should cover everything from foundation to paint and fixtures. The specifications for a government project are overkill compared to a simple house.

How long did it take the contractor to put in all the pilings or whatever they were doing all summer? There has to be an extra cost for all that work.

Posted by: mythoughts on December 17 2008 2:19 PM

The price is high, but the cause is good. It will help out a lot of needy people and we can't put a value on that. Like the Mastercard commercial..."priceless".

Posted by: diplomat on December 17 2008 2:29 PM

The Heaviest Element Known to Science

Lawrence Livermore Laboratories has discovered the heaviest element yet known to science.

The new element, Governmentium (Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.z

Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert; however, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.

Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2- 6 years. It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.

In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.

This characteristic of morons promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical morass.

When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons.

Posted by: taxinapothole on December 17 2008 6:48 PM

Ben, your point is right on. The problem with a lot of the folks that comment on this site is, they know nothing about the subject at hand. I.E. how the city goes about snow removal!!

Right now, if you look in the real estate paper, there are many 3 bedroom homes, with some having basement development, for around $200,000.00. I say, 3 bedrooms, possibly 2 or 3 bonus bedrooms in the basement.

So lets go on the 3 bedroom house, for $200,000.00. We the tax payer, can house 2 to a bedroom, using bunk beds (this ain't the RITZ), we are talking about people down on their luck for what ever reason. We can set up a few beds in the undeveloped basement. So, 3 bedrooms, times 2, equals 6 people. Are you staying with me on this one?? Maybe 4 in the basement, (again, not the RITZ), we have housed 10 underprivileged people for approx. $ 200,000.00, with maybe a few more dollars, to do some minor adjustments.

So, let's put the final cost at $250.000.00 per house. That will house approx. 10 people. Pretty good investment I would say!
If you divide, (using a calculator because I know most of the younger people can't even count change back) 8 million dollars by $250,000.00, the answer is 32, correct??? are you still with me on this one Andy, Gus, and everyone else. So, if you take 32, and multiply it by 10, it becomes home for 320 desperate people!!

Bottom line folks, I think Ben was pointing out, what a waste of tax payers money this "PINK ELEPHANT" is. Way over priced!!

I do have a little knowledge about construction and building, I am a journeyman carpenter. Don't do much of it now, as I blew my back out years ago. But I am still very up on the business.

$8,000,000.00 is a rip off, big time!! Kinsley's buddy's, I am guessing!

And, there are places in the hood that could be required for way less money, and with some renovations, shelters!!

Makes too much sense, doesn't it!! There was no need for this shelter to be built, none, there were many more viable options available!

Posted by: Harbinger on December 17 2008 7:06 PM

Just to be cynical and critical isn't there a planning dept. in this town? Seems to me that that Backpacker homeless shelter was placed too near the road. Were they given a variance to build so close to Queensway? Anyone could just walk down the street and just reach out and bang on any front window and disturb the tenants. Or is that purposely put there in case a drug vendor wants to install a walk by window? Kinda like Tim's drive thru but a walk by instead. How are the occupants gonna be chosen? Residency requirements? 50/50 for gender assignation? First Nations individuals get over riding preference? Or will it be racially balanced? Best hard luck story? A lottery draw for the units? Out of towners not gonna get first dibs on available suites? Do you have to know someone on the panel committee or board to be chosen? Will the building be subject to the Residential Tenancy Act of BC whereas you can only get kicked out of your apt. for either non payment of "rent" or if you damage the premises? It costs a lot of money and it is a lot of trouble to evict someone. Ask any landlord. Lotsa questions. If answering please be specific.

Posted by: gus on December 17 2008 7:31 PM

Taxinahole ... I have inspected "houses" like that. They are rooming houses and many do not meet zoning and neither do they meet the building codes.

Give it 5 to 10 years and they will be dumps. There are enough around town that you can view anytime you like.

Essentially you are expecting the government to become slum landlords. There are enough of them around here and in other cities without the government aiding and abetting.

Posted by: gus on December 17 2008 7:42 PM

Harbinger. Talk to the people in charge, BC Housing. They will be happy to provide you with details as long as you keep the "attitude" to yourself. It is amazing how helpful people can be.

http://www.bchousing.org/news/news_releases/2008/09/12/5590_0809120911-239?pageNumber=7

Posted by: taxinapothole on December 17 2008 8:08 PM

Gus, Gus, Gus, I was making a point, as Ben was!! The palace is way over priced!!

And, do you not think it will be a Central Hotel in a few years, destroying another neighborhood??

The "Hood" is what it is!! Always will be. When you put that many rental properties in one area, you create a slum. That is what my father said, as we watched it consume our neighbourhood, many years ago!! A neighbourhood that consisted of honest working people!! It is not that way any more!! Most, if not all, are down on there luck, because of substance abuse. No Ritz available, but housing for them in the hood, would certainly be better than they have now!

And Gus, I did mention that the properties would need some up gradings. And also, these clowns would not have a free run of the properties proposed.

Maybe it would be a way to set some sort of an example to others in that area, clean 'er up!!

Posted by: gus on December 18 2008 8:21 AM

taxinapothole ...

Let me make a very simple point.

The building that was there before was a perfectly good building. There was nothing wrong with the structure. With a few dollars, it could have been upgraded and, using the same to a room scenario, the number of people who are being accommodated now would have been accommodated.

On top of that, the project would have been about as "green" as one can get a project to be. By keeping a structure for a longer period of time, the carbon sequestered in the wood stays there rather than going into a dump and starting to decay. Considerably fewer new materials would not have been required including energy intensive materials such as concrete for foundations and the removal, transportation and processing of wood and mineral based products.

BTW, there are a number of schools that have been shut down which could also be converted.

Posted by: Bridge on December 18 2008 9:51 AM

Well I'm not a carpenter but I have known a lot of carpenters that like to hear themsevles talk. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT A SINGAL FAMILY DWELLING WOULD NOT BE SUITABLE FOR USE AS A FREINDSHIP CENTER.

Cheers

Posted by: Harbinger on December 18 2008 4:11 PM

Me? Attitude? Gadzooks! I hate to come across that way with just simple and honest questions. Oh well.

Posted by: caranmacil on December 18 2008 8:47 PM

ALl that aside, either you think 8 million is a lot, or you dont. I think it is a lot, just like i think the pineview hall at 800 k was a lot. The fact s, however that you cant use residential prices for larger or public buildings. Anyone can build the former, only qualified bidders can do the latter.

Posted by: DPJ on December 18 2008 11:52 PM

the price per unit seems in line to any new condo project.