"One of the most significant matters is the realization the City's retail "trade area" has a population of about 120 thousand people, not the 250 thousand that has been touted by so many."

This man must be stopped!!!!!!!!

How dare he undermine the illusions of so many in this city!!!!!

"The discussion paper being presented to stakeholders"

Who are these "stakeholders"??? .. I think every single person in this city is a stakeholder!!!!!

Why have I not been consulted???? Where is this discussion paper available?

I think the first three paragraphs of this article were on the mark; then the whole thing got derailed once they started to identify the wish list of opportunities that should be subsidized by the taxpayers of Prince George.

Rather then sell time to the wish list of the discussion participants I think it would be better to just point to the obvious and say "how do you get people into the downtown of Prince George".

The whole marketing plan risks failing into the 'rob peter to pay paul' mentality where we handicap private fitness facility providers or post secondary success in other parts of the city for the benefit of the subsidized Marketing Implementation Plan.

One fact about Prince George that no marketing geak in Vancouver is going to realize is that in Prince George we go where our truck goes. If our truck doesn’t go downtown because of lack of convenient parking, then people don't go downtown. In the big cities they have convenient underground parking and mass transit that brings people in from the surrounding areas where people choose to live.

In the downtown of PG we are handicapped by our proximity to the river in our ability to provide underground parking making vehicular traffic growth that much more unlikely in any downtown revival. And to think people are going to want to move downtown in anything near its current state is too much to ask of the kind of people we would wish to see there.

I see it taking the form of a three-part revival for long term success if it is to ever happen.

Part #1 is the critical location of a Camaron Street bridge that facilitates, a dangerous goods route to the pulp mill industrial sites, with convenient access between the downtown, and both North Nechako and the Hart. Mindfull of a future downtown that could be located on the current CN Rail Yard, and the need for public river front access in such a scenario.

Part #2 is development of a high-density residential area within the city. Kind of a Yaletown in PG. Preferably this would have close access to the downtown, good existing infrastructure access, and hopefully clean air.

The location I see for high-density upper-end-residential is the Edgewood pit area at the corner of Foothills Blvd and North Nechako Road with the river front preserved as park land on both sides of the Foothills bridge. This area can handle the growth in vehicular traffic required of a high density residential area with minor upgrades; is a safe area with clean area; and can fully maximize Prince Georges number 1 asset which is our natural surroundings to attract the lifestyle residents. I would like to see the area accessed by the North Nechako Road by wide blvd's with lots of public space working from two story small retail with living accommodations across from the river front park working back towards the North Nechako ridge with zoned progressive high rise resident owned condo's and apartments. The cities shuttle service mass transit to the downtown would then be critical for the completion of a win-win situation.

Part #3 would be to get the heavy industry out of Prince Georges downtown river front. Have the province and the federal government help with the CN Rail yard clean up as part of a deal to get CN and the mills relocated to a more appropriate location. This gives the spill over potential for the downtown to create the best investment opportunities in all of Canada. That combined with proper zoning for maximization of pleasant public spaces would change the whole image of the city as one that is progressive rather then a funnel of negativity.

Time Will Tell

Here we go again on a new Camerson St. Bridge and a Dangerous Goods Route to the Pulp Mills. Would someone please tell me what Dangerous Goods we are talking about. 99.9% of Dangerous Goods for the Pulp Mills come in by Railway not by truck. So tell me where does the Dangerous Goods going into the Pulp Mills come from and what are they. Caustic Soda/Sodium Chlorate/Sulphuric Acid, all come in by rail. You have no Dangerous Goods outbound from the Pulp Mill. You do have Outbound trucks from FMC containing Hydrogen Peroxide, and Outbound tanker trucks from the Husky Refinery going to various Citys outside of Prince George.

One of the main factors that keep us from ever getting anything done in this town is the complete lack of understanding and denial by most people as to what is acutally taking place on any given day.

1. The citys population has not increased in 10 Years.
2. There have been significant reductions in the work force in Prince George in the last 10 to 15 years. Something like 10,000 high paying full time jobs have disappeared.

3. Student enrollment in School District 57 has been declining for the past 5 years. CNC enrollments have been declining. UNBC enrollment in 2005 has declined from the Previous 2 years.

4. A major portion of the population in Prince George is over 50 and will soon retire, some will stay and some will go.
6. The increase in coal production in Tumbler Ridge will add some trains through Prince George to Ridley Island in Prince Rupert, and some jobs to Prince George, however the best you can hope for is to get back to where we were when the coal mines shut down, that is 2 trains per day in each direction. Tumbler ridge is just as close to Dawson Creek as it is to Prince George and Dawson will continue to get a good share of the business from Tumbler.

7. Most of the Major spending in the Prince George area in the last 10 years has been Government spending. Ie; Federal,Provincial,Regional, and Municapal. We have built almost all we can build without looking stupid, and without going further into debt. We already have a considerably higher debt load than most citys of our size in B.C.
8. The CN Railyard on first Avenue is located on the old River Bed and has been polluted by Diesel Fuel spills for the last 90 Years. Who is going to be responsible for cleaning this land before it can be used for any development?? The cost will be horrendus.
9. If you are going to build new apartments downtown, on Quebec & 5th and Quecbec @ 2nd. and on Victoria St. Plus the aparments that supposedly will be built if they sell the Golf Course, and you dont have any new industry locating in Prince George who will use all these apartments. The original plan for development at the Aberdeen Golf Course was for 200 houses . This was ten years ago. At this point in time they have approx 20 houses their, 10 of which are Spruce King raffle homes. How do you expect to build up the Edgewood area if you do not have an increase in population.

10. The city is littered with For Sale signs, and For Rent signs. Trailer courts in the Prince George area have over 100 empty spaces.

11. Once the beetle killed timber is logged off there will be massive lay offs in this area.

Lets operate from where we are actually at with both feet on the ground and quit forcasting all kinds of optomistic B.S. based on unsound information.

Every town from Hope, BC to Prince Rupert BC,and North to Fort St John have experienced a population decrease in the last 10 years with the exception of Ft St John, and maybe Dawson Creek.

A. Vancouver is Booming
B. Whistler is Booming
C. Squamish is Booming
D. The lower mainland is Booming.
E. Fort St. John is Booming
F. Grande Prairie is booming.
H. Northern Alberta is Booming.(FT Mcmurray)

I. Prince George is not Booming.

"In the downtown of PG we are handicapped by our proximity to the river in our ability to provide underground parking making vehicular traffic growth that much more unlikely in any downtown revival"

What a bunch of BS ..... you obviously have never been to Richmond. Seen any underground parking there? There are tons of cities in this world that cannot provide underground parking because they may be on rock formations which make it expensive in some locations (Ottawa is one example of that)

Parking in downtown Vancouver is not exactly cheap, easy, convenient, etc. And Vancouver is no exception.

That being said, I am sometiems inclined to think we should just allow the downtown to die as a "City Centre".

Perhaps the City should work with the group which which may end up buying the Golf Course, build a brand new state of the art City hall there very similar to many "suburban" cities such as Richmond, Mississauga, Surrey, etc. including performing arts centre all connnected to a shopping precinct connected to the existing Pine Centre, plus new opportunities for higher density housing and offices .....

The downtown will have to remake itself as just another "suburban" arm of the city.

The missing link is creating a more energy efficient and easier to use public transportation network.

"Part #1 is the critical location of a Camaron Street bridge that facilitates, a dangerous goods route to the pulp mill industrial sites"

The new bridge will take 2 years at the minimum to complete. Within no more than 10 years sawmill operations on River Raod will be shut down as will at least one of the pulp mills, if not both of the ones close to town. Investing in bridge in the existing location is a fool's investment.

"Part #2 is development of a high-density residential area within the city. Kind of a Yaletown in PG."

You are dreaming. Yaletwon is unique in Canada and is a direct result of the policies promioted by Spaxman to not put ribbons of highway type arterials feeding the downtown of the city. As a result, living close to downtown has an advantage for those who need to be there due to their work. Thus, those taking jobs in downtown are also those who do not mind to live downtown. This happens in no other city in Canada to the percentage that it happens in Vancouver. It certainly will not happen here in the next 50 years.

Tumbler Ridge is about 400 km from PG, 200 km from Dawson Creek, and 325 from Grande Prairie.

Geographically, Tumbler Ridge is associated with the Peace, not the Central Interior.

For the most part bang on Palopu .....

We need to start with understanding what you are saying, then go from there. There are too many people in this community who think that mentioning those things is being negative.

From my point of view it is beginning with reality rather than a fairytale. One is much more likely to be able to develop realistic goals if one understands fully where we are and looks at opportunities from there.

Think of buildings in the past 10 years. I think private has outpaced government.

The key government has been UNBC additions (the original buildings + road are barely older than 10 years) + CNC addition + Court House + multiplex + art gallery + swimming pool + airport.

Other than that we have had the BDC building, Barton Insurance, remake of Parkwood, WalMart, Home Depot, Canuck Tyres, Superstore, Future Shop/YSK/Winners, COSCO, remake of College Heights Shopping Centre, Casino + hotel + the one across the highway, plus several smaller developments such as 2 shopping areas on east side of Central, the one on hwy 16 at Art Knapp, a couple of churches. In addtion, there have been addtional buildings constructed in the BCR area.

What trumps the government spending very quickly and easily, even if infrasturcture such as the bridge twinning is included is including the money spent by the mills in this City to keep up with technology. We too often forget about that continuing investment in facilties.

I think the point that you all miss is that if you create a city where people will want to live then it can take on a life of its own. Now in the age of the inter-net it’s possible for people to live just about anywhere and do business. Prince George loses out on, because we are a closed off community that hides its strengths and promotes its weaknesses.

Palopu, regarding the dangerous goods route. Not all pulp mills get their dangerous goods by rail. I once hauled a dangerous goods load years ago for a company I won’t mention. Work was tight at the time and I only worked for the company for one trip after I found out they only wanted to pay $10 per hour. They were contracted by another company to haul a chemical trailer to the pulp mill in Kitimat. I was the driver pulling the load. I was given no instructions on what to do should a spill happen and I found out once on the road that the trailer was an old converted milk trailer that had no baffles in it to control the slosh of the load when doing things like braking for lights at the bottom of a long hill. That was a dangerous good, and that is enough for me to be convinced that you don’t need 100 trailers a day laden with explosives going through downtown to have an accident that take only one trailer with no baffles hauling a dangerous good with a driver paid $10 an hour and given no training for a spill.

A dangerous good is not so much the main reason for a dangerous goods route either. The sheer size of large rigs, and the weight of their loads demands consideration in its own right as a potential danger and pediment to the city traffic rushing about daily life. Large chip trucks weighing 150,000 pounds should not be competing with bicycles on 5th Avenue. That is a danger to the public the more that kind of situation is encouraged for lack of infrastructure. How many drunken j-walkers do you get on the sidewalk coming from the BX alone.

The pine beetle bonanza may die down in years to come, but you can not deny the tremendous growth in Asian trade that is about to bust open the west coast ports into overflow through Northern BC if you call yourself a man who knows anything about the shipping industry. Rates are going through the roof in the American ports and on the American rail and long haul lines where the infrastructure can not handle its current loads. Its inevitable due to economics that the over flow will be shunted north to Prince Rupert. The question should be, do we want to be proactive and encourage these economic factors forward, or do we want to pretend things are going back to the 1950’s and start complaining about the cost of paved highways.

Answers to your spin:
#1 The population of PG did shrivel up in the last ten years and a lot of that can be attributed to relative unattractive quality of life that this city promotes.

#2 Yes good jobs have been hard to come by the last 10-15 year, and this is a hard lesson to learn that not all eggs should be in one basket.

#3 No jobs no children. That one was easy.

#4 This is a good point, because I think most will stay. Not only that but when they retire it will be like a renaissance for PG. The average age at the pulp mills is over 63 so within the next few years hundreds of jobs could become available through retirements fueling a boom of locals that stay here in PG rather than moving away. Most of the pulp mill workers were all of the same age when the pulp mills started and only now in the next couple of years will this demographic issue come to favor Prince George.

#5 What happened to #5 Papolu? I see where you get your counting from.

#6 Great points all the more reason to get the CN Yards out of the downtown. My suggestion is to make the 50 km connection from the CN line to the BCR line at Vanderhoof-Fort St James, then make the flat lands around either Bear Lake or Vanderhoof a major distribution center supported from PG, and thus shorten the route for coal from the Northeast.

#7 Show me the figure Papolu. I’d be willing to bet CANFOR alone spent more money then the government on infrastructure in this region over the last ten years. Lets see each pulp mill shut down $15 million dollar expense. 3 pulp mills mean $45 million a year just on pulp mill maintenance. What about multi-million dollar expansions by companies like L&M in Vanderhoof that sell to the bed frame crowd. I think the government has a long way to go to catch up with industry in this region and even further to go if they want to even get close to the amount of our tax dollars that are supporting government projects elsewhere.

#8 This is exactly why I said the federal and provincial government should be paying to relocate the CN Rail yard. We’ve paid for it 1000X over in taxes generated as a result of this liability in our community. Not to mention it is a result of an essential infrastructure for national trade stretching from the Prarries on East. I suspect it will be a couple of hundred million to free the downtown river front from its position as a multinational hostage in a way the addresses the environmental concerns. It should have been a part of any BCR deal, but the government again dropped the ball.

#9 The plan to grow the residential base in Prince George is to plan ahead and build the kind of city people will want to live in. This is not done by doing nothing. One of the things PG does not have that big cities have is high quality residential options within a high density neighborhood with all the neighborhood amenities within walking distance served to the downtown by an efficient mass transit system. This can be achieved by first selecting a location for this kind of development and then zoning this land and then working from a small service oriented scale using a public space natural boundary and working outwards from there. As each block is added it takes on a life of its own. The critical factor is to have land reserved, and start in an area that is not known for its crime or urban safety issues. Big city people that grow communities don’t want a yard, they want to cuddle up in self sufficient neighborhoods. These tend to be the kind of people who have careers that are less restricted to geographical locations not to mention the millionaire factor of moving from a large city to PG. Start at Edgewood today and then apply that to the CN yards in the future.

#10 I think having a high vacancy rate for low end housing is great for the community and is nothing to be negative about. Land is cheep and thus housing is affordable in this community. It should be seen as a positive for future growth potential.

#11 I think that is a rather alarmist and defeatist attitude to take. Again I refer to the lopsided demographic issue that has every yellow belly politician in 5000 miles calling for the immigrant solution to our potential labor shortage now that they have effectively starved off a generation. By the time any beetle kill wood dries up three spruce trees will take its place and the port of Prince Rupert should be firing on all cylinders. The bigger question is what leads you to believe the Port of Prince Rupert will not have an effect on this region.

Finally for the cities you mentioned the common thread to their success was either oil and gas or quality of life. Both of which are attainable to a motivated city in the next five years if we had a strategic plan rather than an Offet.

If you read all that then thanks <;-)

"By the time any beetle kill wood dries up three spruce trees will take its place"

Chadermando .... a few things ...

Pine and spruce around here take roughly 80 years to mature for harvesting. The forests were being harvested full tilt without consideration of an epidemic outbreak of beetle kill. Thus, in fact, the harvesting was not being done on a sustainable basis. A little glitch in the system that people never considered..... its called mother nature ....

So, we were harvesting on an unsustainable basis ....

The amount of wood being harvested, plus the kill remaining will cause a blip of something like 50 years in the local AAC ...

It is something that the general public really seems to have some problem grasping, even though we are living in a forestry community.

This town was built on forestry ... we would not exist at a population higher than 10,000, if that, if it was not for forestry.

Time to deal with that fact .....

The pulp mills are vulnerable even. They have been previously and will be more so now.

Time to realize the predicament and put thinking caps on. Three spruce trees per pine will not safe anyone for another 50 years ....

Owl I don't buy the sky is falling routine.

Facts are pine makes up less then 30% of the forest arround here, and of that they say we may lose 80% of the mature pine. So total effct is less then 20% of the fiber resource, and I say less because not all pine is currently mature and under attack. That still leaves 3 fur, spuce, and popular for every pine that is cut down from the beetle kill.

Hardly the end of the world and simply requires a switch of species for a few years. Granted Pine is a cash cow because it has less limbs and thus is better for straight 2x4's.

The pulp mills though are not restricted to pine. The pulp mills use what is called SPF (Spruce, Pine, Fur) and it all goes into the same pile.

Maximum effect on the pulp mills is a 10-15% reduction in fiber which is hardly the end of the world and can easily be made up for with better efficiencies in fiber collection. Pulp mills will not be closing.

The saw mills on the other hand will lose some of their strategic quality advantage with the loss of a substantial pine resource.

What I can't figure out is why we are not replanting the pine forests with a faster growing hard wood that could facilitate the growth of a furniture industry here in the north? It makes no sense when we always complain and subsidize and every other option to try and add value added industry to the north, but we never look at a fiber supply for that kind of industry with the current opportunities.

IMO calling the end of the world because of the pine bettle is a defeatist attitude for public officials to take concerning our economic future and like the softwood lumber scare only serves to create negative perceptions of this regions future and hinders development initiatives of all kinds.

Time Will Tell

Chadermando ...
It does not matter whether you buy it or not...

the fact is that those who work as professionals in the field, and those who have been given the responsibility to advise the people of this province of how to manage the forests are telling you that this is an epidemic which has drawn down the Annual Allowable Cut to a level which will be considerably less than waht we have been used to and that that will be for about a 50 year period ........

here is part of a report based on current inventory levels and cutting rates ....

http://ye-olde-owl.tripod.com/PG_TSA-MPBE_forecast.pdf

The other thing I am surprised you do not know is that vegetation is specific to biogeoclimatic zones ... you can't just replant an area with anything ... seeds are collected and recorded as to location and seedlings are generated and planted where the seeds were gathered ...

Chadermando ...

The AAC in the PG TSA has been in the 9+ million cubic metre area for about a decade or so.

In 2002 it took a first increase to just over 12+ million ...

A year ago it went up to almost 15 million ...

Easy to see why everyone is working all out to harvest, transport, and manufacture ... and service industries to maintain equipment etc is doing so well ....

we are becoming more forestry dependent for a decade or so ... then we will drop down to less than the 9 million we are used to ....

Forestyr operations are becoming more efficient and we are continually losing jobs .... new plants which will be built will be even more efficient ... you will notice shorter logs on the road now ... they are being cut to length as they are harvested to the specs of the plants they are going to ... more effciency ...

Anyone who thinks forestry is going to carry this region much beyond 8 to 10 years is a dreamer .....

As far as dependency on pine goes in the PG TSA ....

from the linked Chief Forester's Report

"Pine-leading
stands occupy 84 percent of the timber harvesting land base in the Vanderhoof District,
38 percent in the Prince George District, and 43 percent in the Fort St. James District."

So, your assumptions are off the mark .....

Here is how the figures work out for the Vanderhoof area:

"The base case for the Vanderhoof District shows that a harvest of 6.5 million cubic metres per year is required to harvest moderately and severely impacted pine stands for five years followed by a harvest of 3.64 million cubic metres per year for the following five years.

The harvest then drops to 1.25 million cubic metres per year in the
second decade before recovering to a mid-term level of 1.58 million cubic metres per year.

The long-term harvest level of 1.72 million cubic metres per year is attained sixteen decades from now."

16 decades!!!!! .. you and I will be long gone before it comes up to "sustainable" level once more ..... and who knows how many new investations there will be before then to take the rest out ...!!!

Research to be done by UNBC here to reduce the likelyhood of that???

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hts/tsa/tsa24/tsr3/rationale.pdf

Owl no arguement from me on your 'PINE' numbers. I believe those numbers.

My arguement is that the forest is not made up solely of pine. I noticed the term "Pine-leading stands" to me this implies stands of timber that are a majority pine, but not pine exclusively. A lot of forests have a good mixture of pine and spruce and when the pine die the maturing spruce will fill in the space.

I was almost exact on my % of the PG forest district that are pine. Vanderhoof and Fort St James on the other hand have issues they need to deal with.

At least I don't base my assumptions on 16 decade long projections LOL. If thats what it takes to scare people then all the power to them.

Time Will Still Tell LOL

PS Thanks for the links I'll check them later.

Chadermando: with all due respect, it really does not matter waht your argument is, you are not the chief forester, not the long range and strategic planning forester for any of the licensees operating in this region. These are the people who have the detailed knowledge required to determine what they are faced with and how to deal with it so that their companies are affected the least. Government has the additional duty of enuring that the communities are affected the least.

If you have any knowledge that these people do not have which will turn the physicla facts as well as the thinking around, then you should get yourself to one of the many discussion tables which deal with such matters. I am sitting at three of them at the moment.

Owl with all due respect this is an issue that involves everyone who lives in this region. That said we are way off on a tangent from the intent of my original post.

I would love to participate in the bureaucratic decision making process, but unfortunately my time is restricted with other projects at this time, so for now I'll have to rely on the 'science' of 160 year projections for trees that mature in 80 years. lol I still get a laugh out of that one.

That said I do work in the forest industry, I do get around, and I don't base my opinion on a guess. Fear is good business for the incumbent industry no question. The pine problem will effect the structural lumber industry long term no question.

Maybe since you are a participant in the discussions, you might be able to raise questions about species diversification into hardwood species for a value added sector. I know hard wood grows good on my front lawn, and I'm sure wood lots of this kind could add value to future generations with now being the opportune time for action.

A friend of mine that makes eco friendly food utensils (knives, forks, and spoons) out of hard wood for the Asian fast food market (KFC being one client) resorts to buying his hard wood from residential property owners.

Also maybe the powers that be could look at the flexibility of the current fiber base into industries like pulp, wood pellets, fiberboard, and ethanol production, not mention the value added sectors. All of which are huge untapped growth industries for Northern BC.

Time Will Tell


PS No hard feeling I hope. I'm always hard on the issue, but have no intent on being hard on the person.

Chadermanod ....
if you are still interested, read this, it gives a more simplified picture of the story and indicates species comparative harvesting ... 60% pine, etc ....

keep in mind this is an old paper and the amount of attack has increased considerably since then

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hts/pubs/beetledoc_oct29LO.pdf

As far as other species goes, planting on massive scales would do no good in the short term anyway and it will truly make the land base into plantations, changing the whole ecology of flora and fauna ... plus it would alter the qualtiy of products traditionally supplied by this region, putting us into a completely different competitive marketplace where others have already established a niche .......

the issue is a much more complex one than most people appreciate ....

There is nothing that the companies operating here owe to the people of this community .... if it is a sink or swim for the company, and new, untried investment here means the high likelyhood of sinking, then they will simply shut the doors on their plants and put their money elsewhere .. we have no control over that ....

It may be that other, smaller comapnies and new companies will move in, but they will be looking employing people for less wages and be paying less for the services provided by suppliers and contractors .....

The next 8 years will tell ..... we can sit and do nothing ... or we can take action, take any money given to us by the feds, and hedge our bets by diversifying our economy ...

if forestry is not in as dire straits as it appears to be .. and if the oil/gas industry and other mining picks up on top of that, then so much the better for us ...

if you like growth .... ;-)

Owl. You may be right, however you missed a few Government Projects. Regional Police station at 5th and Ospika. Regional Building at 1st and George. City Hall renovation. Relocating soccer fields from PG Golf course to 15th and Ospika along with new buildings. 18th Avenue garbage transfer station. Renovation of the New Jail (6 Million)
There may be more but you get my drift.

On container traffic from Prince Rupert B.C. lets think about where it is coming from. Most of this traffic used to come from Japan, and Taiwan, and a lot of this industry has now located in China. This is not necessarily new business, but relocated business going to the same customers in Canada and the USA.
The company that is building the Container Terminal in Prince Rupert (Maher Terminals) is located in New Jersy and its news release says in part. **The new Prince Rupert Container Terminal will offer the most direct and convenient service for Intermodal trade between Asia and central North America and is expected to become a major hub for Mid-West North American trade.** In other words the containers will go to the Midwest USA loaded, and be reloaded and returned to the west cost. ie; Prince Rupert, Vancouver, Seattle, L.A. or whatever. These container trains will go through Prince George the same as the Coal trains. That is they will change crews, fuel up and keep going. There will be very little if any benefits to Prince George.

A number of years ago Prince George was referred to as the Spruce Capital of the World. We no longer make that claim. Why? Because we have logged off a huge amount of the spruce in the area. I beleive Houston BC now has the title. We however still have the title of **BC's Northern Capital**. Where did that come from, did we name ourselves that? or has it got some kind on legal meaning???

Palopu ...

I always shake my head at BC's Northern Capital ... I would get upset at that if I were living north of the Rockies....

I always tell people who use that term that I I take friends who come to visit us and ask about that to the Court House and say .."there it is, our Capitol" ... :-)

Owl thanks for the link.

I'd hate to get on your case too much, but the 60% pine harvest figure you cited is the % of timber that is pine that will be harvested over the next 10-15 years in light of the pine bettle epidemic. Therefore this means to me that with higher harvesting rates of pine to salvage the value of that timber the percentage of that species being harvested is higher than it would be had there been no pine beetle infestation.

Without the huge increase in harvesting rates of pine this % of pine in the harvest would not be so substantial.

That said what about the fire that burned Northern BC including Barkaville to the ground as a result of a massive beetle infestation in the late 1800's. Why did it not take 160 years for that to recover, and how do they know the temperature difference from then to today when our collection of this data only goes back as far as the mid 1940's. Too many models with funny science if you ask me.

Also I have a problem with your claim that the forest companies don't owe the people of BC anything. The fact is that those forests are public forests, and the people of BC who own those forests have every right to a say in how they are managed. Whether it be for forest companies, the value added sector, or for tourism purposes. Period.

It is my opinion that the forest tenures are a big part of our problem. I realize it secures investment, but it also restricts investment and is the basis of American subsidization complaints. I truely believe we would be far better off with many employers that compete in an open market (within forest districts) for the raw log resources from a fair economic perspective and from a social contract perspective. You I imagine are on the other end of that arguement.

Palopu, at least we will for the first time be on the container shiping superhighway for global trade between Asia and North America. That in itself will create huge opportunities for location economics.

The key will be to develop an airport container hub with a rail hub and trucking hub that can facilitate this region as a distribution center. Otherwise like you say the train might as well continue on to Edmonton.

CN and the BC liberals hacking up the line to North Van could be a problem in this regard.

PG as BC's Northern Capital?

IMO I look at PG as the largest city servicing this vast region in everything from services, to transportation, to education, to health care.

Lets face it the north has a lot of the same concerns politically and would be far better off as its own province than it is as a colonial outpost of tax revenue for the southern half of the province. If that means we can only make the claim in name for now then its a step in the right direction.

I'd like to see the Province of Northern BC with the Vanderhoof-Fort Fraser area as its capital. I think north of the Rockeis would support this as they have the same colonial problem that the interior and North Coast have. It would be more viable then PEI now and in the long run I would say more viable then any of the other Atlantic provinces.

Better yet if one could get the Yukon on board and make the capital in Tumbler Ridge. Or would that be a better capital for the nation of Western Canada. LOL