They are trying to provoke a strike, isn't that obvious ?

This economic turmoil is gong to shake up the unions badly. Companies cannot continue the egregious compensation and benefits demanded by unions.

Hopefully the union leadership will pull their collective heads out of their collective behinds and work towards sustainable employment for their members instead of trying to max out their wages.

Companies want to stay in business and need employees. However, if costs exceed revenues, the plant/mill/factory will be closed and possibly moved to another area. There is not much more to cut other than wages. Sure, upper management can often be trimmed the same as the front lines. It likely should happen, but those that make that decision will not end their own tenure.

unions have put our economy in this situation...get rid of them

It was the greedy US banks that put us in this situation, driving the world into a recession. Unions and their members are as much victims as the companies are.

Unions are needed to keep companies from abusing their employees. It was abuse by companies that lead to the idea of collective bargaining. So if you want to get rid of unions, you must first ensure that companies will not abuse their employees or give preferential treatment to favorites. This is impossible in today's labour market.

Before you go off half-cocked, I am not nor have I ever been in a union. I am too prideful to work in that environment.

It is because of unions that other workers get reasonable wages and benefits, not to mention other social safety programs.

It is too bad that they have managed to push wages and benefits to the point where our products are now priced out of the global market. Why do you think most products are now manufactured in China and India? That is great to have great wages, but great wages for no job is still nothing.

Unions are the only thing employees have to protect them from corporations. The employees didn't cause this mess in the forest industry; it was the banks & business.

"Unions are the only thing employees have to protect them from corporations. The employees didn't cause this mess in the forest industry; it was the banks & business."

I agree and so does the rest of the world, if you do some more reading.

We have had strong unions for so long, that people don't remember what the conditions were like that spawned unionization in the first place.

Goods are produced in countries like China and India because they have poor regulations regarding worker rights and compensation. Lax environmental laws allow North American companies to move shop over there and bypass labour and environmental standards found here in Canada and the US.

I think if most people knew how employees were being exploited in these other countries they wouldn't be lining up at the Wal-Marts and Zellers of the world to buy their products.

People know good and well what living and working conditions are. The key here is that everyone wants top wages for themselves and still have the ability to purchase a less expensive gizmo. That is the catch, isn't it?

Walmart et el, were born in the USA because someone listened to consumers screaming for better prices, so they went shopping around the world and found those cheaper products. There was and is no way that a North American made product could be as cheap as something made "offshore". We brought this on ourselves. Yes, the banks and investment firms brought down the global economy to which all companies are responding with layoffs, closures and wage roll backs. The however here is that we still wanted to spend less and have more. Well now we have it.

The answer my friends will not be easy. We have a global economy and our wages impact the price charged for our products. The only real solution now IMO is a global government which it has been said the UN is the predecessor of. It is coming, like it or not. There you go Gus, look that up, psst (Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club). We also need these same unions to go over seas and fix up their employment standards. that would raise their prices to be more in line with what we must charge. So in the end we will all pay more for less.

It used to be the wage disparity between continents that allowed us to get high wages and to buy cheap goods. Now it is coming to bite us in the back side. The other alternative is to roll back to their wage levels. That would make it pretty tough to pay that quarter million dollar mortgage. So I guess housing prices would have to tumble, and so on.

One cannot have their cake and eat it for long.

I assume that the union made there standard offer to reduce salary and wages for post baby boomers (ie screw them) while the most senior and least productive members of the workforce continue to be over compensated!?

After all the unions have proven again and again they arent against eating their young (Overwaitea, UAW, etc, etc).

Could it be that the standard practice of screwing junior members has run its course and the senior people are actually gonna have to make some sacrifices? Oh NO!

"It is because of unions that other workers get reasonable wages and benefits, not to mention other social safety programs."

BS! I earned my higher wages through self improvement. I give absolutely no credit to unions.

This is a pretty standard comment (its included in the recent radio campaign). It may be debatable for unskilled labor (but then how do you explain $8 per hour?) but its right out to lunch on professionals. They have always went out of their way to make sure they arent union (interesting isnt it that some people actually view union membership as a stigma). The NHLPA is a great example. Clearly its a union, but they make the distiction that they are a 'players association' to avoid being grouped with union members.

Lets see them go on strike- no cares- will be off for a couple of years before anyone notices. The end is near for this Union.

Born in BC: the comment was directed at unskilled labour and not professionals such as yourself and me.

I am guilty of thinking union membership as a stigma. The statements I made were a regurgitation of propaganda that I have received from my resistance to unions. They do have a basis in fact.

I would never want to be one of those sheeple and so have missed out on toys and nice home because of it. These union members are now facing reality as they have few marketable skills for other employers.

I am in full agreement with the statements made by ammonra and mythoughts earlier on.

Why bash the so-called unskilled worker (who has no control over anything) when those so-called skilled decision makers at the top ran the whole entire train off the rails?

The poor and unemployed people don't pay much in taxes, the corporations don't pay their fair share (so it is claimed) and the rich people have ways of avoiding paying taxes - that's why they keep getting richer!

That leaves only the increasingly stressed unionized *middle* class that works in the mills, mines and forests to carry the largest part of the load because up to now they have been making fairly decent wages.

Why attack them?

Conifer/Confer which is it, to be honest never even heard of the outfit.

Conifer. They are a labor relations outfit for forestry companies.

What ever happened to corporate responsibility? You know ; where companies could rape the forests, pollute the rivers, poison the skies and kill and maim workers and in return they provide good paying jobs and pay taxes. Now these same corporations can still legally pollute, poison, rape maim and kill but whine and snivel and negotiate through the compliant medias so they can get away
from good paying jobs and paying taxes.
It amazes me that there are so many morons out there that just lap this propoganda up!!!

Denaljo, that's a great post!

Does anyone know that the BC Teachers Federation was forced into being union by government of the day? Then government cut wages,then they call them an essential service and took away their right to strike. Should I go on?? Guess who the culprit is??

I'm surprised it took so long. Everyone knew Canfor would play hard ball and that the mills are looking at lockouts most likely as soon as the mills have a firmer knowledge on the US summer construction sales going into the fall.

A lockout will allow the employees to collect EI and Canfor to cut production if needed. A strike would be on the employees dime, and would destroy the union and they know it.

Therefore in a lockout situation I would say the union would be smart to hold fast on the benefits and negotiate wages only with a sunset clause on any potential short term roll backs. Wages can get back a lot easier than benefits and it fills the companies 'short term' needs?

IMHO

What do other sectors do? Mining and oil companies shut down production if prices are too low to make money. At some point the commodity increases in value to a let them restart. What does the Forest Industry do? Fire up more shifts and build inventory to sell at half the price it is actually worth. We have been giving the U.S. and Japan our wood for nothing for far to long. I am not a union member, but I do work in the forest industry and the workers are not at fault here.This was coming long before the recession started. This started when so much fiber was put in the hands of so few corporations. The guy who owns 30-40% of Canfor would love all of us to work for minimum wage, as long as he has his billions.

Loki said: "The only real solution now IMO is a global government which it has been said the UN is the predecessor of. It is coming, like it or not."

I am not sure why a global government would be a solution. Look at the disparity within the different regions of the USA, even Canada, as well as other large countries such as Russia, China, Brazil, etc. There are geographical realities that even most countries cannot deal with.

I would like to think that countries in the world will continue to work together.

Linking the Bilderberg group to this is like saying that the several local groups who get together at Winston's and other locations in the city have great influence over the local government. I see no real evidence of that although it might appear to outsiders that is the case.

Here is the list of this year's attendees. Sort it by country and see who attended from Canada and the USA.

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Bilderberg-Participants-2009.htm

Onassis used to have a group of "thinkers" get together each year as well. I am sure that there are many others with a variety of objectives.

Well said cougs78!!! Thank you!

This has nothing to do with workers, this has everything to do with companies bleeding red ink in 45 gallon drum sizes, and trying to reduce the flow any way they can. It was only a matter of time before they looked at the workers.

Here is some food for thought though:

For every lift of lumber we sell below what it costs us to produce, that removes the possibility of selling that same lift of lumber for profit at a later date.

We are not only losing money right now, but allowing people to purchase and/or stockpile cheap lumber, which removes some future sales at a profit, further lengthening the recovery time for the industry.

LET'S REMEMBER TO BE KIND TO THE WORKERS, IT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT.

I think we agree on the workers. Now the bleeding red ink. It is 20/20 hindsight according to industry,but when 2 bohemuths try to take each others share of the market there is only a couple of outcomes.One company wins or both get crippled, which is exactly what happened.Now they are getting concessions from all levels of government.Not only are the workers impacted but all taxpayers are as well.Where did the hundreds of millions of dollars in profits go. If you own shares in these companies I guess you know.Oh well I guess you guys have figured out I ain't on the companies side in these negotiations.

Most of my fellow union memebers have little issue with a wage scale tied to the price of lumber.

The main issue is the length of the contract. The Companies want to roll back everything to 1990 levels and then lock in for the long run.

Why not try a short term contract and/or tie wages to lumber prices.

Frank

PS No profit sharing. Accounting practices play too many games!

Time to look at changing the adversarial roles of union and management, I think.

The law in Germany requires the Boards to of copmpanies with more than 2,000 workers to have a 50/50 representation on the Board of Directors.

The interesting thing is that this has led to very low wage increases compared to some other countries who have no such requirements. Of course, it has likely also kept the German manufacturing firms competitive. Can't have it both ways unless you are operating under a dictatorship of either the left or the right.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/065.html

from 10 years ago ...
http://www.boeckler.de/92462_29077.html

If there ever was a time for corporations and government to ask for the farm, then now is the time. The narcissistic corporate leaders of Canfor, West Fraser and the other remaining forest companies will with out question bring all unions to their knees if the unions allow it.
The forest industry is definitely struggling, but this is not a new thing. This struggle has been going on for 20 years or more now. Look back and count for yourself the number of forest based companies that have gone extinct because of corporate greed based decisions. These decisions were made by the same people who are running these corporations today and the political leaders who were in power from the start of the industry monopoly shift are still in power today....why does anyone expect anything change? If you continue to wipe your proverbial a@#$+!$# the same way why would expect the toilet paper suddenly not to be dirty.
I am not now nor have I ever been affiliated with any form of a union but I have to say that if there ever was a time for a union that has the balls to stand up to guys like the two Canfor Jimmies and West Fraser Hank (to mention only a few) then now is the time. I have never seen the likes of the bullying that I am seeing in today's world of the forest industry....it's shameful and disgraceful. Our elected political leaders and the corporate leaders of the world who have the power behave like psychopaths using their power like guns and this needs to stop.
I say that if the corporations want to reset the wages of the common Joe then the government should forgive all dept for the common Joe, this would allow the common Joe to survive on ten to fifteen bucks an hour or less. The government has forgiven the dept for the pig farmers and many others, why not the common Joe.
I have to say to the unions, perhaps now is the time to stand tall and be tough. Unions are not the reason for this depression, it has been and still is the fault of the big banks, governments, and corporation greed. It appears now that the only way to fix what we are mired in is to completely shut down what remains of our economy and start all over.

I am angered by our situation just like many of you are but in my mind the only persons who have relatively clean hands in this mess is the common Joe. If wages are to high then wages have been to high for a very long time, this should have been addressed a very long time ago not now. If the benefits are to high then benefits have been to high for a very long time and they should have been regulated a long time ago, not today. The failure to address these two issues is not the responsibility of the unions, it belongs with Conifer and all corporate leaders.
The supervisors, managers, General managers, CEO's, CFO's, business owners, banks, government leaders and others who may have been involved in the decisions that put us here, should be the ones taking the bullets right now, but they are not. Remember, if you know of a wrong doing and say nothing or do nothing then you are just as guilty as the person who did the wrong.
It's time to perform a complete world cleanse......lets get on with it.