Time the lights down the bypass lots of idling at every light.

What happened to the group who was going to try to stop the major polluters? Do these people really believe that cutting vehicle idle time is going to offset the emissions from Husky and the pulp mills?It's winter time so let's cut down on vehicle idling and woodstoves.

I would like to report the CN Diesel locomotives that spend hours and hours idling then. One of those is probably like 40 or 50 cars idling at once.

I'm sorry for being a human. I'm sorry for being warm blooded so I need carbon to stay warm. I'm sorry for working and to get to work I need a vehicle. I'm sorry for working so I pay taxes that people misspend. I am sory that I need food to stay alive so I can pay my taxes. The food needs to be brought to me and needs to be packeged. I'm sorry that I have some waste. I'm sorry that me staying alive on this earth is going to use energy to play, work, enjoy life. I'm sorry for working and some "better person than me" constantly tells me I'm a bad person for being on this earth!!!!!

How about stopping these people from idling their smokes outside doorways! A law was passed that states "NO SMOKING" within 5 meters(I believe)of any doorway or ventilation fan. I am sick and tired of walking through a cloud of smoke to enter a business in this city.

If you want to make laws, have a plan in place to inforce them!

"there are already 9 complaints registered on the map"

Wow, thats one hell of a sample size, definitly worth a news story.


So each spot on the map is a registered complaint with the exception of a drive thru which had 3 complaints?

Truly pathetic, I surely hope my tax dollars arent supporting this tripe!!!

I'm 100% anti-(unnecessay) idling. There is no need to keep your car running while you run into the bank. There is no need to use a drive through for your morning coffee. It's well past time people stooped being so selfish and lazy. So your car is cold inside for a few minuted. Big whoop. Put on a coat and suck it for a bit.

This city needs to ban the drive through and they need to start handing out hefty fines to people who figure it's their right to add to the air quality problem.

So the brain trust has decided that we must not allow our engines to idle whilst in the lineup for drive thru service, hm.
Now, I don't use the drive through, but when I do feel like paying too much for a cup of coffee ( but it is GOOD coffee ! ) I park the truck and walk in, stand in line, idling, you might say. However, I notice that at peak times there are generally quite a number of vehicles in line, I have seen as many as twelve, some say they have seen more. Can the brain trust explain to us what the consequences to the environment are when you are stopping and starting gasoline or diesel burning internal combustion engines repeatedly, en mass, throughout the city wherever drivethrough lanes exist? It is true that your engine is not polluting or using expensive fuel when it is not running, but if you start and stop that engine say six times, as you move through a lineup, my position is that you are actually using more fuel, and spewing more pollution, than if you had just left the engine running. A while back, these same educated people were trying to encourage us to shut the engine off if you are stopped at a red light, well I don't agree with that either. In terms of intersections, salvation on the pollution and fuel mileage front will only take place when the powers that be decide to discover the benefits of under/over passes ( no stopping )
metalman.

Might as well cut out all the drive thru's in town then,Timmies will really go for that one wont they...Funny how they can take on the average joe,but are powerless against the real polluters in this town.

Be prepared for AirCare,because that will be next for this city,and with it more money out of our pockets!

faxman

let me guess, goverment worker? Communications manger? Or are you the guy that pulls up infront of buisness's to check on the fax machine while his vehicle sits idling at the curb?

Sounds like you live in the wrong town.

very good point metalman.

I admire the effort that this recent grad from UNBC it putting out, she is really putting everything she has into this campaign, the flyers and communicatons look great.

Here is where I see the problem, as others have said, she is targeting the wrong people. You wanna get maryjane leaglaized? Take your petition to the local college, dont stand if front of the police station and ask for sigs.

When its 20 below outside, never, ever ask me to shut off the engine of my vehicle, I have been in this town far to long to consider doing that. Warm up for one or two minutes in the winter and drive? Sure you can scrape the outside of your windows off, but what happens to the inside? They fog over, real safe.

Sound like allot of these recommendations come from somebody in Vancouver.

catylitic converters need to be hot to work - has anyone done any studies on what comes out of the exhaust pipe during start up? I once read that a diesel pickup needs to be shut off for more than 20 minutes before you are using less fuel than it takes during a restart (unfortunately I cant find that report now - hmmmm)

interceptor

the new figures are 3-5 minutes for a diesel.

I will continue to idle while waiting in lines, I will warm up my car prior to driving away in the winter.

I will have campfires in my back yard with family for hot dogs etc.

I will idle my car on the side of the road while talking on my cell phone.

For God sake does the City have this kind of money to blow?

We need to clean house at City Hall, top managment needs to go.

Four freaking words! Sawmills! Husky! Pulpmills! That is where you start. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh OMG! How do experts get dressed in the morning without help.

I agree with metalman, what are the consequences of stopping and starting your engine repeatedly. Has that been looked into, should be good for another grant.

When it snowed last Thursday I didn't see any bicycles around.

Please define climate change, is that warming or cooling, seems to be some confusion there. Hey since we have gone from a natural warming cycle to a cooling cycle even Al Gore is starting to backpedal on his globull warming scam. He recently said it looks like C02 does not have as much effect as the warmers thought.

The fourth was the place that makes the blacktop for the roads but I could not think of the name. :{

It never ceases to amaze me how rabidly defensive people get when they feel their love affair with their vehicle is being threatened. It's well past time to stop being so selfish and to start thinking about the big picture. Idling vehicles are part of the problem and they're the easiest part of the problem to address. We have to start somewhere, let's start but not idling our cars.

It always boils down to pounding the poor citizen over the head to comply with a stupid law.

Why doesn't government adjust traffic lights so that instead of stopping on a schedule and forcing people to stop for no reason but to keep you in town, to only change when needed? Oh wait, then the city wouldn't be able to funnel traffic into major shopping centers in the hopes they'll get out and shop. Our traffic lights are not programmed to necessarily be efficient for commuters, but for sending traffic to business.

The most stress on any engine is when you stop and start it. Anyone who's had car trouble will likely attest it usually broke down when trying to start it. So for the sake of saving a cup of gas, you could be due a rather large fortune in repairs from unnecessarily starting and stopping your vehicle. I wonder if unnecessary repairs factor into these enviro-nazis math. I wonder if unnecessary wear and tear from un maintained roads factors into the cities math.

"We have to start somewhere" Tell that to the pulp mills,Faxman!

Oh! what's that smell dad,nothing son we are just entering Prince George, thats all.

P.s. thats not the smell of idling cars.

I'm curious if unnecessary red lights would help PGAIR. They sure would help those that drive after the "9 to 5" hours. If anyone from that group is watching the comments here, here are some intersections to go and watch. Most are supposed to be triggered only when traffic pulls up from the side street but later at night, they change all by themselves, stopping traffic for no reason.
For The Ministry of Traffic and Highways.

2nd and Victoria
4th and Victoria
6th and Victoria
7th and Victoria


For the City of PG.

15th and Ospika

These three are not automated but are real idle zones and really stupid at night.

4th and Queensway
5th and Queensway
And the most silly of all...
15th and Spruce

Hope this group can do something about these intersections.

Lot of whiners here.

Opinion 250 RUEZ, thats all!

I was going to comment but I think it has all been said. How stupid are these people and where is the "common sense". It's the same in our Politics, go after the commoner, not the big business goofs who create the problems. Heaven forbid if we insult them or they get their suits dirty.

What a load of crap! I will run my truck & warm it up for however long it takes in the morning, especially in the winter. Remote start works great.

"It never ceases to amaze me how rabidly defensive people get when they feel their love affair with their vehicle is being threatened. It's well past time to stop being so selfish and to start thinking about the big picture. Idling vehicles are part of the problem and they're the easiest part of the problem to address. We have to start somewhere, let's start but not idling our cars."

Let me see. I have a company that has a payroll which accounts for 70% of my operating costs.

We do in house photocopying that costs us 0.5% of our budget.

When I need to reduce my costs substantially, will I find it in my photocopying budget or will I find it in my payroll budget?

The analogy applies to this cause. People promoting this are looking at saving the company by looking at photocopying. That will do nothing. It is what I call wasted effort. Wasted? Yes, because that effort will get a better return if it were applied to getting the largest polluters to make changes.

We have no ozone problem in this city. We have a particulate problem in this city.

As far as local receptor effects on the people parked behind the idling vehicle and taking in the exhaust ... turn off the "resh air" fan while waiting or park and go inside the building. It is a personal choice that can easily be made.

The spin doctors have done a very effective number on these people!!!! So much for PGAir!!!!!

RUEZ sayz .... "lots of whiners here"

So, RUEZ

Posted by: RUEZ on October 21 2009 10:14 PMWe need police enforcement of current laws, not just new ones.
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/14356

Posted by: RUEZ on August 4 2007 7:45 PMThat's five stories now about this. You'd think it was the news of the century.
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/6666/1/cn+derailment++smoke+drifting+over+prince+george

I can post more WHINING BY RUEZ if you want me to. :-)

LOL, that's awesome. What kind of pathetic loser goes back months to dig up old comments to make an irrelevant point? I see a whole bunch of whiners on this site. People are trying to clean up the air in this city using various methods. One happens to be cutting down on idling cars, but all you whiners can do is complain about the industries. Well guess what whiners, people are going after them too. It's not like they said hey forget about all the pulpmills and other polluters let's pick on those poor driving slobs sitting at Tim Hortons for ten minutes waiting for thier fix. Some of you are probably the ones sitting in your diesel pickups letting it idle right beside someones door while you wait outside. Here's a clue, 10 degrees isn't that cold. If you can't be bothered to care about the affect you have on the air why should anyone else?

Time for me to hit Timmies drive through then texting on my phone during my drive to go park out in front of my buddies wood burning house with my car idling away..

Easily done in less than a minute ..... put RUEZ in the search engine for this site at the top right of the page and you get your pick .......

What is it with your personal attacks anyway? You seem to make a habit of it ....

"pathetic loser", "whiners", "driving slobs"

I just purchased a brand new Honda this spring. Woo hoo!

The owners manual actually states that newer vehicles are actually more efficient if not allowed to idle for extended time. Usually a driver is to get in, start up and go. If it is chlly out, a few minutes of warm up is adequate. When it got real chilly a few days ago, I let it warm for 5 minutes, and it was just right, the windows were clear and my hands did not freeze.

Once a vehicle has been driven a few kilometers, the catalytic converter will retain enough heat to function correctly.

One of the hypermileing techniques is to shut off the car at lights. I do this when I get there about when my lane is stopped. That is up to 5 minutes of no burning fuel. Come on man! It will not get freezing cold in 5 minutes of not running and you can leave the key in the accessory position to listen to your radio.

Diesels may be a different story as they are designed to run at idle for long periods. Starting a diesels does consume more fuel and burn much less efficiently at start up spewing more particulate until the engine has reached operating temperature. That is the old word, need to research the current recommendation for new diesels.

In the end, read your vehicles owners manual. It's the little book you got with the car under every thing else in the glove box. It has maintenance schedules, safety warnings and suggestions on how to operate it efficiently. Pretty cool, eh?

Someone else suggested a few over passes to reduce idling at lights. I suggested that for Central at 5th, 10th, 15th, and Domano/Tyner/16 west a couple weeks ago in the article about the completion of Tyner intersection. They spent 9.5 M for that upgrade. I think they could have put in an overpass for that price. We could use a few more up the hart as well, like at that stupid light at the Hart Wheel.

Of course tinfoil hats don't have any valid opinions.

"Of course tinfoil hats don't have any valid opinions."

What about sheeple?

This stupidity is absolutely out of control.

btw, Tim Horton's sux.

5 minutes stopping in a lane? In a contruction zone, yes. Lights typically change at intervals of one to two minutes.

I am not a mechanic, so can someone please tell me what happens to a starter if it is used, let us say, 5 times more frequently than normal. Is its life reduced by a factor of 5?

Here is what I have been told by a mechanic.

"From what I understand, 30 seconds to 2 minutes is the cross-over point for fuel consumption. Older cars take more gas to start than newer ones, so turn off your late-model cars earlier.

The trade-off is for increased tailpipe emissions. After 30 seconds to a minute the catalytic converter cools off. On restart, the car produces higher levels of NOX and CO until the converter reheats.

To summarize: turning off saves fuel but creates more smog. Idling burns more fuel, but keeps the air cleaner."

Anyone have other input on this?

It seems to me that much of this is emotional on both sides of the issue with little factual information to support either side.

How many starters are we going to use because of all this stop and start. What about the carbon footprint it takes to make all these starters.

What teeth does these do gooders have over us. Can they fine us, or just call us bad names. you know what they say, stick and stones .....

If you want to be a do gooder, identify yourself by wearing Orange, show us how you live all the time. Do you live in a house that is energy efficient, do you have hybrid cars, do you recycle everything, is your house less than a 1000 sf. Is your furnace 98% efficient. do you use hot water on demand. Do you do your laundry with only cold temp. Do you do your dishes or throw it in a dishwasher. Do you walk to the grocery store. Are all your lights CFL. do you have a compost bin.
Is your consumerism a minimumlistic existance. Is your house temperature set at 17 degrees Celcius, and it is turned down during the time your not there. do you take all your holidays in country or do you fly south. Are you on a 100 mile diet. I don't respect people who tell others that we are so wasteful, when they can not wear orange and say, I live a frugal existence to do our planet good.

Sure we all have to start somewhere, but come on, in a few months its gonna be -20 and I want to get into a nice warm one ton diesel pick up.

For the record: Tim Horton's rules. Live with it bush eater! :) More important though, and the offense that has people's backs up is the effort by PGair to ban (at some future date) a convenience that so many people use and appreciate. Like all regulations aimed at curtailing peoples rights/vices, this one is being suggested by zealots who do indulge in the right/vice in question. Honestly, if i hear one more utter fool dictating what someone else 'needs' I will scream! Thats what gets people angry, its not interference with their love affair, its other people trying to tell them what they can or cant do. Worse yet, it is other people telling them that they are selfish or lazy (slobs) or stupid or just plain bad. Lets face it, we are all bad people in the carbon footprint sense of the word just for owning a car, so lets not have you kettles remarking on us sooty pots.
News flash: many people do not believe that banning idling at Tim Hortons is going to significantly improve the airshed (though it would give the owners a legal claim to compensation i should think). The key word there is 'significant'. The argument that every little bit helps may hold water with charitable donations but it is not valid as grounds for increased regulations of peoples behaviour.

Its a good thing the Treasure Cove Casino does not have a drive thru at their restaurant..... Talk about the slowest service in town.

How many creams & sugars do you have to put in your T-Ho's coffee before it starts to 'rule', Caran? ;-)

I agree with rest of your post, though.

caranmacil: well said
I would like to hear your opinion of this approach as apposed to actually going after the major contributors, meaning industry.

I read recently that BC will gain up to 50% capacity (from memory) by conservation. Meaning that the citizens will have to turn off lights more and use less so the power generated could be sold to the USA.

What a waste of effort. Maybe someone is feeling all good about themselves by attempting to do something/anything. This is misdirected, feeble attempt at 'educating' people to see a point of view.
I have spent alot of money the last few years buying less polluting vehicles, and I want the lovers to get the hell off our backs. How many times have you been under a diesel changing a starter from overuse? Me, every 3 years. Diesels burn up to 90% less fuel at idle than comparable gas engines, so much less they have trouble making heat to burn clean and defrost in winter. I won't be turning mine off at lights and find out it won't start when light goes green, can you imagine the furious commuters when there is a traffic jam because someone wanted to save 30 sec of fuel and the battery is low.
Oh wait, I parked the high particulate diesel(but cheaper to run) and spent a wad on a new, cleaner gas engine truck. I do not idle near as much as this engine warms up very fast, and costs more to run. IT COSTS ME MORE TO RUN. But I am helping clean our air with a low emission engine.
I do not cater to drive thrus, was pissed when they put up drive thru bank machines at the mall, and even had the nerve to call them 'green machines'.
To top it all off, I ride my bicycle to work a couple of times a week, even in last weeks snow. It helps me stay healthy(again benfiting us all) and saves me money by not driving my gas guzzler.
I'm doing my part, so forgive me when I snap when some snooty upstart from lotusland reports me for starting up my truck so the windows are fully defrosted for my drive down the Hart at 20 below. My vehicle runs on fuel, not hot air.

Bushes: A lot fewer sugar and creams than it taqkes for mcdonalds anyway. Besides, you are missing the point: donuts! Ok? Donuts!
Loki: I dont know much about pollution in the bowl but i do know that when i drive downtown i dont say: hey it stinks today! Who was idling at Tim Hortons? I also know that the clean air guys cant hunt elephants with a pellet gun so us squirrels have to watch out.
As for the current 'approach' i think it is reprehensible. It encourages an already over active group of righteous finger pointers to point fingers with the intent of possible infringing on other peoples rights or priviledges. When the whole city is colored orange then what? Maybe we allow the little meddlers to take down license plates and tattle to the bylaw officers....Maybe we could even make the sorry little do gooders 'deputies'. They could have little badges and even an 'air quality officer' uniform. We could maybe get one of the big industrial poluters to sponsor them. Money talks, environmentalists walk.

I guess we are in for another round of woodburning and weiner roasts as the big cause for poor air quality. I almost forgot about good old road dust. Until something is done about industrial polution I will continue to burn Bio fuel that is 16" long and round, preferably birch. I will also continue to patronize Timmys drive through. I see many Provincial and City vehicles that idle during the cold months also. Garbage, the lot of it.

If we use less electricity, that will give BC Hydro more power to sell to the Yanks. Win, lose.

"Yanks" wtf??????

Vehicles today have never run as clean...just the government getting ready to tax us,I know I can smell it! ;)

OK i have to put in my thoughts, I am sorry, but I drive an '81 Pickup that probably offers more pollution to this town then an entire parking lots of cars do. Simple fact, I cannot afford anything else, I need this vehicle to get to work to make a living. Maybe we could start by offering some incentive, a reward for helping, just like there is a tax credit for renovating if you put in more energy efficient windows or a high eff furnace. Not everyone is able to contribute based on circumstance, and we all have the rights and freedoms to make our own choices. We can all point the finger but lets face it, why would someone do something just because someone says we should, offer an incentive, people would be more inclined to pitch in

Cash for Clunkers????

Loki read what a mechanic told him. The rings in a diesel will carbon up if left to idle for long, it is not designed to idle for a long period unless it has an highspeed idle option. That is why I chuckle when I see owners leaving their diesel pickups idling in parking lots, unless the truck has a highspeed idle option, they may develop problems.

OK i have to put in my thoughts, I am sorry, but I drive an '81 Pickup that probably offers more pollution to this town then an entire parking lots of cars do. Simple fact, I cannot afford anything else, I need this vehicle to get to work to make a living. Maybe we could start by offering some incentive, a reward for helping, just like there is a tax credit for renovating if you put in more energy efficient windows or a high eff furnace. Not everyone is able to contribute based on circumstance, and we all have the rights and freedoms to make our own choices. We can all point the finger but lets face it, why would someone do something just because someone says we should, offer an incentive, people would be more inclined to pitch in

To give you some idea of how stupid this City is we have to take the following example.

The City shut down the Cameron St., bridge to all traffic, and because of their ineptitudes they kept the bridge closed for four years. The bridge could have been repaired in someting like 3 Months for a cost of $750,000.00.

Because the bridge was closed for this extended period of time there was additonal miles travelled by 8000 vehicles per day (Citys numbers).

In rough numbers 8000 vehicles per day over a 4 years period would amount to approx 1,813,660 gallons of gas/diesel. or 8,234,400 litres. This of course added a huge amount of pollutants to the air. In addition it cost taxpayers and industry an additional $9,068,300.00 in fuel costs.

So I think that we can say without any doubt that the biggest polluter in the last four years was the City of Prince George because of their ineptitude. To then come up with this stupid no idling idea borders on insanity. Its pretty obvious that they have no clue as to the damage they do to the enviroment on a daily basis. (They are one of the biggest idlers)

The next thing they will come up with will be **Idle Driving** no more idle driving. If you need to shop for groceries then go to the store nearest to you. Do not go outside your area and waste gas. No driving from the Hart Hiway to Walmart, as you will burn to much gas. No driving downtown to wander around the mall. No driving to the casino. If you must gamble do it on line, and you will not pollute the air.

Once we get used to **No idle driving** we will then implement **No idle Chatter**

Once **No idle Chatter** comes into effect we will no longer be able to communicate on this site, nor will we be able to pass the time of day with a friend.

Have a nice day.

And so Ms Lapadat-Janzen, what are you telling us from this unscientific mapping.
Oh yes, I am also looking for my brochure "softly" telling me to replace my wood stove which I do not even have!
What a waste of taxpayers $$$$$, time to cut THIS position PLUS that of new Communication Officer NOW! BTW, Scott Bone did this several years ago...don't you bureaucrats speak to each other at City Hall or just too busy sending out e-mails of fluff.

Palopu,

I read your numbers and I figured good point but dont overestimate so much, it just kills a good point, so I did my own math calcualtions.

I figured 8000 vehicles (you numbers)
An added 8 miles per day, if you come through the Cameron Street bride you most likely leave again, I guessed an average 4 miles extra per trip (may be more, just a guess) That adds up to and extra 64000 miles a day traveled.

Now we dont do this every day, lets just use buisness days, estimate 200 days a year, so that is 12,800,000 extra miles per year. 4 years it was closed so 51,2000,000 extra miles traveled.

Now lets guess these vehicles averaged 20 mpg, thats an extra 2,560,000 gallons of fuel burnt. Lets use the price of fuel today, .96 per liter, it has been higher, much higher peaking at 1.40 didnt it, but it has also been lower so lets just use todays numbers. 2,560,000 gallons is about 11,000,000 liters give or take, and at .96 per litre that works out to $10,560,000 spent.


So there you go, you way overestimated the costs to the residents of Prince George, oh wait, let me look at this agian, ........................................................................................................

Crap, by my numbers you actually underestimated how much was burnt. That is crazy, I wonder what the carbon footprint from all of this was?

Excellent point Palopu, I think this would make an excellent story in the papers to show just what kind of stupid decisons we have had to endure and how much it really costs up. Those new ambassadors and communications managers now pale in comparison.

Hmmm, I wonder how much money this cost Lomak and Excel alone?

(I understand this is a very rough estimate and many other factors should be put in, but it can be argued many ways, average miles, average fuel economy, actually usage.)

I heard that when the Cameron St. bridge closed the extra trucking costs to Canfor operations was estimated to be $1 million extra per year. Now is that helping the enviroment and attracting business?
How about all the times having to repave 5th ave/Carney areas of late, the costs? The pollution from all the extented traffic stops at 5th ave?
Back on topic, if the planners of our cities gave a rats ass about idle times the would improve traffic flows by insisting on better patterns designed to reduce stopages.
In my view this starts with reversing current trends with traffic controls and poor planning. Get the lights timed to move a lot of traffic quickly thru the area, not stop it and convince them to pull in and shop at your intentional traffic funnel. Oops, counterpoint will be safety, must make everyone stop every 2 blocks to keep speeds down. No one should be allowed to just drive down Victoria or Queensway on all green lights as it will lead to all kinds of mayhem?
And parking lots and new businesses! Why are bottleneck parking lots and drive thrus allowed to be developed? Because it keeps you the shopper funnelled towards the targets that the planners wanted to force you to. Simple marketing strategy, they all do it. If Costco can have a lot laid out in a simple grid with multiple entrances and exits onto more than one street, then why do we import this system of lower main land type strip mall one way traffic jam?
Tim Horton's? City planners should be fired for allowing the horrible setup on the Hart! 1 exit? And now more stores? A traffic light that lets 3 vehicles turn left to town in morning rush hour? A choked up intersection as drivers struggle to get out of that area because of poor road designing mixed with Timmy's traffic.
Why do they just keep getting it wrong? Because saving you money,saving the enviroment, is so far down the priority list it fell of the page.
To quote 'Dragons Den' billionaires when shown some new green idea, "show me how I can make money with this".
We have to realize this isn't about us, were just inconvienient cash.

why don't all you pgair people move out into the bush up north somewhere and ride your horses.

polar7018

their parents did that 40 years ago and ended up here, are you saying migration is a natural pattern?

My kids keep telling me that we should have created a gate north of Hope.

We thought tell telling everyone this is a gritty little mill town would have been enough. But oh no, all those who love gritty little mill towns actually ended up coming here. How innocent we were when we were young!!

So much for our plans. We didn't realize so many people actually loved breathing what some smoke directly.