The RCMP continue to try and cover up their bad cops and practises. When will they get it ??

Hooray! Another cop-bashing thread!

I think it was 100% the RCMP's fault that Clay Willey was a violent drug user.

MrPG,
This is not cop-bashing, it's not about a violent drug user, it's about how things are investigated. Are you a cop ?

In light of all the deaths that have occured involving the RCMP, I feel this probe is warranted. I am not bashing the RCMP, in fact I truly respect the hard work they do every day. However, the reality is the public's confidence in the RCMP's ability to carry out their duties is dwindling. The public is wanting reassurance that the organized body they rely upon to maintain safety and order is responsible and accountable to its code of standards and ethics. The public is entitled to this reassurance.

I am laughing on the outside but crying on the inside. Quesnel, read your first post, then delete your second (for your own sake).

Corruption, your post was unnecessary and out of line. The dead deserve respect, no matter what they did in this life. The universal law of Karma will take care of the rest.

We have removed the commenting privileges of “corruption”, if you can’t make a comment without using that kind language; find a site who will accept that kind of conduct

"Cpl. Graham was deeply affected by the event and suffered post-traumatic stress disorder, according to court documents. That and notoriety attached to the Reid case were likely behind his transfer to B.C."



"transfer to B.C." ....haunting words don't you think Mr.PG?

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2248669

Yup, this thread is going pretty much as planned.

I have always said that if there is mis-conduct, let it be investigated and dealt with. And don't whine and cry 'cover up!' when the decision doesn't go the way you hoped.

Well we might just have to if the video was tampered with. Let's see shall we?

You know I think our whining and crying was put on the back burner after seeing time and time again of things not going the true way. So I see where you're coming from. Let them investigate because really why should you care? You and your way of thinking are covered. Until people with this way of thinking have a wake up call then the RCMP rep. can never improve.
Don't you want to see the RCMP better themselves MrPG? Let's deal with the problems, find solutions and move on! Your way of thinking keeps this process stalled.

If this latest fiasco is truly about improving the self investigative actions of the national police force, then good.
I think the cops have a tough job to do, and it is a job I would not want. Having said that, I believe a lot of these young cops are sissys who don't want to get their hands dirty. It seems to me that they avoid physical confrontation, why? are they afraid they might tear a finger nail? To put my potentially inflammatory comments into context, consider that the cops reportedly tasered Willey more than once, and the cops already outnumbered Willey. We are told through the media that Willey was not armed, he was disobediant, and resisted arrest. With two or more trained officers of the law on hand, why would'nt they subdue Willey physically? It would not be difficult for someone trained in self defense to put the miscreant to the ground on his face, and hold him in an arm or wrist lock, while applying hand cuffs, plus there was at least two cops, it might get rough, it might get bloody, but it would not be lethal. Think about the unfortunate Mr. Robert J. at the Vancouver airport, same situation except there was a lot more cowardly men in uniform facing down one man.
metalman.

The bottom line heidi, is that people like you expect perfection from the RCMP or 'it's not good enough'. Perfection is not realistic. The police, like the rest of us are human, and they make human decisions. 99% of the time, those decisions are good, and we never hear about those. For the 1%, let those be dealt with accordingly.

As for the whole idea that police are 'cowardly' for not fighting and restraining violent individuals, that is ridiculous. So many things can go wrong, like the perp making a grab for the officer's gun, that I wouldn't expect them to do this. I'd like to see you face down some drug-induced violent individual in hand-to-hand combat.

couldn't agree more metalman

Actually metalman it appears this one officer wasn't afraid to break a nail. Too bad the wires in his brain couldn't quite match up his bravery with integrity. Red flag.

"Cpl. Graham was one of the officers who wrestled with a deranged Clayton Alvin Willey prior to his arrest in Prince George in July 2003, the civil rights group explained. Cpl. Graham bound Mr. Willey's feet and hands behind his back in a "hogtie," a restraint position that contravened RCMP policy.

Mr. Willey was dragged on his stomach into an RCMP detachment where he was Tasered multiple times by two other officers. He went into cardiac arrest while being transported to hospital, where he died the next morning. His cause of death was determined to be cocaine overdose."

Perfection is not realistic MrPG???? Wow, what a fool I've been all these years!

:)

Be honest heidi, there's really nothing the RCMP could do to be seen well in your eyes. Mr. Willey was a violent drug abuser who was in a deranged state at the time. Maybe according to you, he should have been handled with kid gloves. Maybe the cops thought he would hurt himself if left unbound. Who knows, I wasn't there and neither were you.

Best of luck in your search for perfection.

Mr PG touches the heart of virtually all discussions of the rcmp these days: Bias. While anyone supporting the RCMP are accused of being on the payroll, there seems to be no similar suspicion of the other side. Some folks on this site are upfront about their beliefs that the cops are untrustworthy, and generally at blame all the time. Others try to disguise their bias as something else.
In either case, calling cops 'cowards' is no better (and certainly no more well informed ) than the comments corruption and others have made about Mr Willey (without the f-bomb that is). At the risk of stifling some rather amusing exchanges I would suggest people stick to the story at hand, rather than lapse into hyperbole and baseless expressions of contempt.

All of you naysayers and armchair quarterbacks make me laugh. You sit and criticize police actions with an out of control, drug induced, violent individual with comments like: it should have only taken a couple of officers trained in self defense to restrain and cuff this individual. You have no idea. Just a thought: why not buy a pair of handcuffs and have two friends come over and as some kind of training excersize try to physically restrain one and cuff them. (while they are resisting). It won't be easy without someone getting hurt. From my own experience in another jurisdiction an individual who was violent, drunk, under the influence of drugs and out of control...and who was 5'9" and had just committed two robberies, resisted arrest and it took 7 of us to get him handcuffed.
Knowing and having dealt with the person who is the topic of this article during my time in prince george I have no doubt that it took what it did to get him under control. The police dive in to control these whacked out people in the interests of keeping the general public safe from them and I will bet that most of the naysayers if confronted with the same situation would just sit in a corner with their tails between their legs.

As a victim of Willey's break and enters it is hard to have any sympathy for his loss of life. After having to sell my house because my kids were afraid to be there, increased insurance costs, etc, my hat goes off to the RCMP who have to deal with the low lifes like Clay Willey. A loss to society.........not likely.

If I remember right it took 7 police to arrest Wiley while the 8th officer vidieo taped the affair. My self if I were a police officer and had someone resisting arrest that voilently I think I would of just shot him thereby preventing any harm to myself and to any others. This man was a known felon so now the public is safe from him. He is not committiing B&E's.
He is not selling drugs to our young people. He is not assaulting and robbing others. He should of been taken off the streets along time ago.

With all due respect, I bow to your experience Imorge. You seem quite credible, and as you say, you have personal experience. Contrary to some other reader's interpretation of my opinion, I did not label all cops as cowards. It is my sincere opinion that some situations could be dealt with physically, and that ability should be a part of a policemans' arsenal. Your comments provoke thought, and I thank you for that.
I certainly do not want the job.
metalman.

heidi1555 - Wow, what an eyeopener your National Post link is. It makes you wonder who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.

I thought that if an RCMP officer had a criminal record, that he would be discharged from the police force.

Yes, arrest the guy, take him in but why the torture? It makes nobody a hero. I hope you see what I'm trying to get at. They had him bound and were dragging him in. They had him. He's not much of a threat with no use of arms and legs. Why the torture afterwards?

my2bits I agree. He needs to go. He should've had help long ago. He doesn't seem to be going anywhere so all we can do is hope he received help as he's on our streets now.

I appreciate your comments metalman. At the risk of plagerisim I am pasting the following article:

Saturday, November 07, 2009
Received | Reçu: 2009-11-07 4:38 AM WINNIPEG FREE PRESS
COLUMNS, Page: H6

It's easy to criticize Mounties, hard to be one -
Robert Marshall

Maybe it's time to cut the Mounties some slack. At one time, the corporate side of the RCMP did a splendid job of filling Canadian minds with confidence and storybook images of the men and women who wear the Red Serge while serving coast-to-coast-to-coast. Never afraid and often
a lone figure, a Mountie was the Superman of the community, pure, proud
and strong, someone who always got his man.

But the Hollywood schmaltz ran thin during the reign of former
commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli, a guy who was surrounded with yes-men
that were more interested in the executive high life than the front
line. That administration was scandal-plagued, forcing Zaccadelli out.
He landed gently in Europe as an Interpol bigwig while the front line
carried on wearing the smell of dirty laundry.

Then there was the Braidwood inquiry and its examination of Tasers
and the RCMP's role in the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver
International Airport.. The number of Mounties involved in that matter
was small, but the toll taken on the 25,000-strong force was huge..

And today, without cause or evidence, there are those who thirst for
Mountie blood at any suggestion of impropriety. Recently, any lack of
wrongdoing on the part of the RCMP seems inconsequential.

Contrary to their venerated image, the men and women who make up the national force have no special powers.

The RCMP as well as most municipal police forces, the front line is simply a cross-section of Canadiana and I emphasize that the iconic Mountie is hardly perfect.
Recruits bring their individual strengths to augment an intensive
training process, but they also bring flaws and weaknesses that make
them unique and human.

It's a hard life for the Mountie in northern BC or anywhere for that matter who responds to a call knowing that the nearest backup is kilometres away, sometimes by boat. Regardless of training, how easy could anyone feel knowing an
emergency response team is desperately needed but has to muster in vancouver before boarding a plane and flying for an hour?

Two years ago, the tune of the lone Mountie being able to overcome
all adversity was still being sung. Backup translated to overtime that
was sure to compromise the bottom line. And that was a no-no.

Those were management tunes, the kind of elitist recklessness that
had no place in the 21st century where gangs, trafficking and guns and strung out people with the strength of a gorilla are
commonplace, not just in Toronto, Vancouver but in Prince George too.


A 10-year negotiation between the staff representatives -- and Mountie management
did away with the antiquated protocol, replacing it with a policy that
mandates backup to meet the challenges of certain calls, acknowledging
that officers are not indestructible, nor perfect. And that the ordinary
can become the extraordinary in a matter of milliseconds.

The new policy arrived late in 2007 on the heels of two Mountie
murders, both of which were rooted in the "routine."

Chris Worden was allegedly shot dead by Emrah Bultaci, an armed drug
dealer out to make a quick buck in sleepy Hay River, N.W.T. Worden had
been dispatched to investigate a common disturbance. I guess that if the new policy had been in place, Worden's widow, Jodie, and their toddler would not be alone today.

Days after the Worden's murder, Const. Doug Scott, just a kid with
six weeks' experience, was killed north of the Arctic Circle, allegedly
by Pingoatuk Kolola, who reportedly had been armed with a high-powered
rifle. A bullet smashed through the police windshield, instantly killing
Scott, who had been responding to a seemingly straightforward
impaired-driving call.

The fact is that in today's environment, nothing is routine.
Mounties, especially those in smaller communities, are always "on."
Whether working or on-call they must be primed and ready to enforce,
counsel or lend an ear, leaving little time to enjoy the luxury of
unfettered downtime. It's a life of service in communities where most
are friendly but few are friends.

Imagine if your job meant crawling around the cab of Doug Scott's
RCMP vehicle measuring trajectories and analyzing blood spatter while
your dead colleague remained slumped beside you. Maybe some Mounties are
super.

Super or not, the accountability and standards to which RCMP
officers are held must be balanced with a deserved and rightful measure
of support. They have a tough job. All cops on the street do.

lmorge it's nice to see you on the emotional side of things. I can relate better to that approach. Good find and well written.

What most people are not cluing in to however is the fact that we (most of us) appreciate the hard working HONEST RCMP members. Why wouldn't we? (We all know someone in the force or know someone who does.) That's all we've been wanting to see and need to see more of. We crave that in an officer. The respect is there for THAT officer.

The problem is obvious and everyone knows the problems. We can all read, attend inquests and watch youtube. The lies, the messing with of evidence, the lack of discipline, the transferring of RCMP members thinking that will solve the problem. Out of site out of mind? That's not fair to any human. We as humans deserve better no matter what shirt we wear. That is what matters here. Take no offense when people direct their anger at an officer who has done wrong. It's not directed at you and your ability to be a good officer. See the difference. See the problem and fix it. This is fixable.

"Whatever you fight, you strengthen, and what you resist, persists." � Eckhart Tolle

"Take no offense when people direct their anger at an officer who has done wrong."

I have no issue with that. However, some people are quick to pre-judge whether an officer has done 'wrong' before any investigation has taken place and then use their pre-conceived notions of the police to paint all officers with the same brush. Look at pretty much any thread involving the police to see what I mean. I believe that's the part you're not cluing into.

"Yes, arrest the guy, take him in but why the torture? It makes nobody a hero. I hope you see what I'm trying to get at. They had him bound and were dragging him in. They had him. He's not much of a threat with no use of arms and legs. Why the torture afterwards?"

And again, you're making some rather large assumptions and conclusions based on...? This is the kind of pre-judging that I was talking about above.

Let the investigation happen. If wrongdoing is found, let the officers involved be punished. If the investigation reveals no wrongdoing (and it's entirely possible -- we weren't there and Mr. Willey was in a deranged state), watch the anti-police people cry 'cover-up!'.

MrPG they tasered him while hogtied.

Why?

I don't care if you and I weren't there it's still uncalled for.
This has nothing to do with prejudging. Actually come to think of it you have prejudged me. I read those facts. I didn't just assume.

.....persists.

Let the investigation answer that question. I didn't bring up inflammatory terms like 'torture'. You did.

Again, you and I weren't there. Maybe Mr. Willey was banging his head against the wall or acting violently in some way which the police felt he was going to seriously injure himself. Is that kind of situation so difficult to imagine?

In Canada yes it is.

Why?

Because on the RCMP website it states:

CORE VALUES OF THE RCMP - Recognizing the dedication of all employees, we will create and maintain an environment of individual safety, well-being and development. We are guided by:

* integrity
* honesty
* professionalism
* compassion
* respect
* accountability

COMMITMENT TO OUR COMMUNITIES - The employees of the RCMP are committed to our communities through:

* unbiased and respectful treatment of all people
* accountability
* mutual problem solving
* cultural sensitivity
* enhancement of public safety
* partnerships and consultation
* open and honest communication
* effective and efficient use of resources
* quality and timely service

I don't expect perfection as lmorg suggested but I do expect the above followed.

Nice cut and paste, but you didn't answer the question. Why is it not possible that someone might be behaving in a deranged manner (as Mr. Willey was) and be a danger to themselves or might hurt themselves while in custody?

I know it's not something you want to acknowledge, that Mr. Willey played a huge role in what ultimately happened to him, but you have to consider all circumstances.

Speaking of cut and paste, you might want to re-read the excellent article posted above by lmorge.

If the investigation reveals that there was some sort of deliberate 'torture' perpetrated by the officers involved on Mr. Willey (which I highly doubt), then let that be dealt with. But you certainly have no right to level that kind of accusation.

I will get back to you after kids go to bed. If this article closes before then you may email me if you want. I wouldn't mind continuing this conversation and maybe do something with it for the public to read so both sides can work together and stop unnecessary deaths from happening.

In the meantime you can read the link I posted above and if you can find good reason in why they tasered him so many times while tied let me know. To protect him from hurting himself???? Please.

Oh hey lets taser the guy multiple times while hogtied so he doesn't hurt himself....give your head a shake and call it what you will but that sounds like inflicting excruciating pain to me. To me in Canada it just doesn't make sense....there I answered you anyway.
The noise of kids is happening so off I go.
Good night.

Forget about it. Take care of your kids. It's clear that you have your opinion and I have mine and neither will change. E-mail would just be more of the same.

I will say that the picture you paint of cops just sitting around wanting to torture the guy for fun or whatever seems just as far fetched to me, especially knowing they would be videotaped.

I'd suggest that if that's your view of the RCMP, that you should give your head a shake as well.

Good night.

Heidi - every large organization has a mission statement, core values etc that are pondered upon and set forth for all to read and aspire to.

But the RCMP as an organization is not perfect. The Brown report which called for sweeping changes within the RCMP has really only resulted in a better backup policy. There is still so much outstanding. The RCMP is only as strong as its weakest link. You refer to the Mission Statement and Core Values within the RCMP , lets remember our previous Commissioner Mr Zaccardelli preached them , however felt he was above them .

There are two factions in the RCMP: The men and women who go out on the street every day to do real police work. Then there are the officers (whiteshirts we call them) who alot of us feel are only interested in climbing up the corporate ladder and protecting the corporate image of the RCMP. I for one, do not see how you can portray or believe you can run the rcmp as a corporation. I know I will get lots of arguements about this, but I am glad of the recent court ruling that the rcmp should be allowed to have a union.

RCMP management have for eternity ruled with an iron fist over the cops who hit the streets every day...dictating things that do not even make sense to the members...we can't buy better equipment for our own protection, is one bone of contention. This is slowly changing...but the representatives we do have were set up by RCMP management themselves not too long ago...they are a management tool...if push comes to shove then they have to relent to an officer's orders.

Anyways I got off topic since this should be about the CPC investigation, but members aspire to what you pasted onto the site, but there are situations that do not always fit neatly into what you refer to.

Thanks lmorge I really appreciate your comments lately. It's nice to go off topic sometimes and it's necessary to do so.

Let's kick some whiteshirt apple.

:) Night.

By the way where is thereasonableman? Does anyone know? Miss him!

Both of you were like two peas in a pod and made about as much sense, yammering on about something that both of you know nothing about. Good entertainment though. Keep up the fair work.

lol...oh pete....and you were the slug on my pod. How have you been?

Hey check this out pete!

"Dr. John C. Butt, a specialist in forensic pathology, noted that touch stun is a less debilitating mode on the Taser gun and said it wasn't clear how many times it was deployed. He questioned why police would taser a man who was already tied up and face down, and called it a "cruel and unnecessary act."



http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Rights-Justice/2009/11/16/WorseThanDziekanski/

Wow there's more?

"Clayton Alvin Willey died of a heart attack several hours after police knocked him to the ground, hog-tied him, kicked him in the chest, pepper sprayed him and used a taser on him repeatedly."

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/rcmp-urged-to-release-arrest-tape-of-man-who-died/article1365897/?service=mobile

LOL at chilako-pete. Thanks for coming out buddy. Your infinite wisdom really shows in that one post.

And heidi, I appreciate your prowess at searching the internet to find some speculative comments in the media, but I say let the investigation be the final word.