How can you predict weather 3 months away when daily forcasts are wrong. What about the 20+cm on Friday? No warnings or even forecasted!!!

And people that drive slow in snow storms are an extreme danger to everyone else that uses the highway and should not be on the road if they ca not drive to the conditions. Pull over and sleep till a snow plow drives by and potentially save a life.

In white out conditions some cars will slow to under 50kph on the highway with a posted limit of 100kph. In those conditions a loaded tractor is like a freight train in that it needs its momentum to make the hills, even the smallest of slopes when the conditions are really bad. Anything less than 70kph is a spin out danger zone on the most unlikely of slopes... with 50 feet visibility and a parked transport truck on the highway spun out covered in snow blending in with the blowing snow and parked like a brick wall unseen by moving highway traffic... you now have a very very dangerous situation for any family traveling the highway as well for the driver of the truck that has to chain up hoping not to get hit in the process... parked on the highway with no visibility... a tractor should never be forced to spin out on the highway in those conditions.

When visibility is 50 feet it is not ok to only do 40-50kph on the highway driving in the middle of the road forcing on coming traffic onto the shoulder... because it makes you feel more safe. You are worse than a drunk driver at that point and a hazard to everyone that uses the highway... pull over at the next side road and sleep it out till the snow plow comes to guide you out, or at least allow transport trucks to pass you, so they are not parked on the highway creating extreme danger for everyone else... maybe even you someday.

Monekate, you're right. We haven't had an accurate forecast in PG for at least a couple of years... they are almost always short on their snow fall estimates and can't get the three day forecast right at all. Not sure why, but environment Canada seems to just throw out averages for this area, rather than predictions... its a danger to a lot of people that depend on accurate forecasts.

Don't believe weather forecasts, and especially long term weather forecasts. They're just guessing like the rest of us.

Good post, Eagle.

I'm confused. If I can only see 50 feet or am driving in a white out, I should ensure that I drive at at least 70 kph so that a truck driver who can also only see 50 feet or less doesn't have to put on chains? Perhaps if the visibility is actually that bad everyone should pull off to the side and have a little sleep. Oh wait, since the visibility is so poor, maybe one of those speeding rigs will not see the family parked in the car and ...

I admit that I've seen some pretty useless/dangerous drivers in cars, pick-ups and SUVs, but I've seen some pretty useless/dangerous 'professional' drivers as well.

Everyone should drive to the conditions of the road. We sure can't rely on the weather forecasts and sometimes conditions change very quickly.

Tractor Trailer Crash Claims a Life North of Ft.Nelson.

And then there is the accident on 97 south just recently when a load of lumber was spread across the road when a big rig lost control and the road surface was DRY.

It appears those big rig road hogs are not much different then the guy driving down the centre line on our highways for fear of ending in the ditch. Maybe they know their capabilities.

Having driven over northern highways from Atlin to Prince George to Ft Nelson in winter and summer conditions the big rigs have as many problems as any other driver And they consider themselves to be PROFESSNIONALS. Spent six hours one night behind a big propane rig across the raod and in the ditch so that no traffic could get by on the road between Meziadin and Terrace.

The big problem is the big rig drivers dont seem to know when to chain up.

Cheers

eagleone wrote:

"with 50 feet visibility and a parked transport truck on the highway spun out covered in snow blending in with the blowing snow and parked like a brick wall unseen by moving highway traffic... you now have a very very dangerous situation"

Good Lord!!!!! That has to be the understatement of the year!!!!!!

Where is the obvious conclusion from a professional driver?

If anything less than 70kph is a spin out potential on a slope, and 50 feet is the visibility limit and the braking distance on an icy road is greater than 50 feet at >70kph speed, what does a safe driver do?

PULL THE HELL OVER AT THE EARLIEST CONVENIENCE AND WAIT FOR THE WEATHER TO PASS!!!!

Fail that question and you don't get a license.... pretty simple. You are a danger to others on the road!!

There was an fairly well known accident in the lower mainland with a rig pulling fuel. Came to a T intersection with a stop sign. Couldn't see a thing in the fog.

Co-driver got out of the rig, stood on the through road to look for oncoming traffic. Couldn't see a thing there either.

Did not matter. Couldn't see anything, so felt it was safe. Motioned the rig to procede ... rig did ... smashed by a car coming through and was engulfed in flames......

Don't know if I got that exactly right, but some of you might me familiar with the case I am talking about.

When you can't see, for whatever reason .... don't drive...

Some of these professional drivers become mesmerized from staring at the center line and loose touch with whats going on around them.

Probably the first rule is how do I get out of this mess (weather) and use some common sence and if it means pulling over and parking do it. All the major highways have a shoulder to park on use it. Its called "defensive driving."
Cheers

Retired,

Its obvious you have never been behind the wheel of a truck. Maybe you should walk a mile in a truckers shoes before you start giving advice.

Pulling over onto any ole sholder IS NOT THE SAFE THING TO DO! You pull your truck over on a safe spot where you can completly clear the road, there are very few sholders that allow that.

That is safe driving.

These so called professional drivers are few and far between, I have been loading these rigs for 20 years, and half of them cant back up straight in to the dock, and yes there is lots of room, on many occasions I have has to back it in for them. Those of you that don’t reduce your speed in white out conditions are morons. No wonder so many collisions involving wildlife and vehicles happen.

Good post Gus

Retired, you can not pull a transport truck to the side of the road in a snow storm... it will surely get hit and kill someone... you can't stop to chain up for the same reason unless you have a chain up pull out stop to clear the potential highway traffic... the slower you go the more chance drag of the snow will cause a spin out in places where chains would never be required under normal conditions or normal highway speeds. Chains are designed to last for a hill or two, but not as a regular thing for the long haul on the highway... they just come apart and then you have nothing when you do require it.

The driver in Fort Nelson recently likely had his lockers in to climb a hill in blizzard conditions and forgot to disengage the lockers, which then pushed the truck not allowing it to make the sharp corner... thats what I think killed him and not speed or unsafe driving. Simply forgot to unlock his lockers for a sharp highway corner with some black ice or snow is likely what got him.

The example Gus gives is of an intersection and not a through fare highway where the expectation is that traffic is moving and not stopped.

Chip trucks have no choice but to stay moving because they have no place to pull over for the most part, and have a mill to keep running that has limited space in the bins before the mill goes down. Stop for snow and a mill goes down; and with a mill down they lose a lot of money ($10,000 an hour) and potentially a lot of people lose jobs if the operation can't run efficiently. You can't just shut down all the mills every time it snows.

Its about safety... if you can't drive the conditions stay off the road. I can easily do 100kph with 50 feet visibility using the rumble strip as my guide, but usually will only do 80kph in those conditions for safety reasons if its really bad... below 80kph and the trailers swings all over from snow drifts (lack of tension on the trailers), and spin out zones can happen on even small hills.

If one can not do close to 80kph in a storm they should not be on the road, because they apparently don't have either the proper equipment or the proper skills to be on the road.

I followed a guy the other night doing 40kph down the highway driving in the absolute center of the road forcing all on coming traffic almost into the ditch to avoid him; and even at the passing lanes this person would not allow anyone to get safely by him. That person was ignorant of the huge risk they were to everyone else on the road and their ignorance needs to be educated somehow... a drunk driver would have been more safe in those conditions.

Gus under your rule all highway traffic should stop in a snow storm, because very often in a snow storm you can not stop in the distance of visibility... thats why we have animal collisions and why the expectation is that traffic is moving on the highway and not stopped. Heck even in a good rain storm one can see often as far as their braking distance... heck on a clear sunny day with the way YRB does the roads one often can not stop from a mile away. Its the reality of the situation and the limitations of traction. A tractor is not like a small car or truck in that it has 60 tons of momentum pushing it and black ice is very common in these parts.

Its not much to ask for someone driving a simple car or truck that has the easy ability to pull off to a side street and let traffic move in those situations if they do not have the ability to proceed safely. No sense creating a danger and blaming it on 'professional drivers'.

Eagleone, so you can get stopped in 50' doing 80km? I drove a chip trucks for 10 years and wouldn't have been able to do it. Although I never needed to find out. Maybe nobody ever told you tire chains would stay together if put on properly and at a reasonable speed. I'm sure if you ask Vic or Dale (depending on which company you haul for) they would be glad to educate you, hopefully before it's to late for some poor family that gets in your way.

Boomer, you and I both know that you can't stop in 50 feet at 80kph. I would hope I never have to try it and we both know visibility can be very minimal in rain and snow storms at night. I don't get to pick the piece of highway where the snow will pick up and blow, and so you and I both know that its not simply a matter of chaining up every time the wind picks up. I chain up 9-times a day on some days, so I don't think I need to be educated about chains and how to get them on tight... you should know that chains are useless on black ice and you can't just stop on the highway to put them on when you get behind a slow driver doing 60kph below the speed limit. You should also know that it is company policy for almost any company never to stop one of those trucks on the highway for any reason what so ever, and for good reason. You can leave chains on back and forth across town, but nobody drives on the highway with chains on for the small off chance they get behind someone doing 40kph in a potential spin out zone.

The whole idea is to try and avoid having a brick wall of truck parked on the highway. Any suggestions on how to make that happen are great... the best way is for traffic to keep moving and pull to the side when safe if they can't maintain a safe speed. Going extremely slow is a hazard of another kind on the highway, and its good for people to be aware of that rather than ignorant of their own responsibilities to others on the road. I think its fair to ask of that from others in the name of safety, and asking and explaining the reason why doesn't make me a bad driver for spreading that awareness.

I think you should reread your first post . There was nothing said about rain or black ice ,just snow.

I think you should reread your first post . There was nothing said about rain or black ice ,just snow.

enjoy .....

Look at all the truckers .....

Rail transport works safely in fog ....... whiteouts, etc .....

aren't we a smart society .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vb0y5eaRPQ

Gus,

ask most buisness's, rail transport is the most ineffecient in terms of connections and time.

Much freight is vaiable on rail, just not efficient.

There is a time and a place for everything.

Here are some figures to ponder ....

Promoting a greener supply chain (not to even discuss safety as well as decrease in road maintenance)

- Rail current state:400 ton-miles per gallon
- Truck current state:130 ton-miles per gallon

Service performance, on time delivery (anecdotal information)
- Rail 83%-87%
- Truck 92%-95%

Market share (ton-miles)
- rail 42.8%(1996) 47.7%(2005)
- truck 33.0% (1996) 35.6% (2005)
(rest are other methods such as pipelines)

Market share $(2006)
- Rail 6.7%
- Truck - 79.3%

Fuel cost per ton mile
- rail $0.009
- truck $0.031

Labour cost (wage only)
- rail $0.0003 (estimate)
- truck $0.0170 (estimate)

New regs in USA to reduce sulphur, PM, NOx reults in lower fuel efficiency and higher cost of truck by about $10,000

There are some perishable items which might have to be flown, or trucked, but most of the tonnage can easily take a day or two longer - switching from ship/plane to rail to truck is what intermodal hubs are all about.

Cost of maintaining rail is borne by railroad. Cost of maintaining highways to the level required by trucks and damage done by trucks is not borne by trucking companies.

Efficiency is measured in labour hours and fuel cost per ton mile.

Effectiveness is measured by on-time delivery, etc.

Based on the above, the efficiency of rail is obvious, the effectiveness depends on the goods being hauled.

Gus,

Why dont you ask Canfor, Westfraser, Tolko why they use more truck than rail?

I can tell you why, because they dont know when their product will get to market.

You obviously dont understand the free enterprise system.

A little something for you to watch:

Lumber leaving on rail is going to a yard to be stockpiled till sold. Lumber on a truck is going to a customer. That is not 100% accurate, but a pretty reasonable statement based on information from the companies employee's themselves.

Gus, by the way, in case you havnt looked, its 2009 now, not 1996. Did you have to go back that far to find numbers to slant to your argument?

Liked your information Gus. The railways built our country and the truckers are destroying it.

Stompin Tom is just a stompin. And thats all.
Cheers

Hey Stompin

I posted the following figures .....

Market share (ton-miles)
- rail 42.8%(1996) 47.7%(2005)
- truck 33.0% (1996) 35.6% (2005)

That is a HISTORY of market share over a 10 year period. It is difficult to do that in 2009 without going back to 19something.

In case you cannot interpret it, it shows that there has been a total increase in market share over a ten year period from 75.8% to 83.3%, with a 4.9% increase in rail and a 2.6% increase in trucking which also represents an increase of almost twice as much in rail as in trucking.

BTW, do those companies use more trucks than rail? Depends on how you count and what is being shipped. As far as I know, all pulp shipped from the mills goes by rail, for instance. Certainly a lot of lumber goes by rail. Of course, virtually none those days by any method.

I believe a rail car holds 5 times as much weight as a trailer. So number of rail cars versus truck trailers would not be a good method. That is why ton-miles is a more appropriate method of calculating how much freight is carried by each mode of transport.

There is a reason why CN put in an intermodal terminal in PG. It is not only as a result of Prince Rupert's new shipping facility. Most railroads in North America have been expanding their intermodal capacity in order to make the transfer between truck and rail easier.

http://gas2.org/2008/05/22/ship-by-rail-reduce-annual-greenhouse-gas-emissions-by-more-than-12-million-tons

"If you live near a railroad, you see them every day, flat cars with semi-trailers secured to the deck, or shipping containers stacked two-high. They’re moving freight that isn’t clogging our highways and polluting the air with excess hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxide and particulates produced by over-the road trucks."
-----------------------------
http://www.collingwoodconnection.com/collingwoodconnection/article/149622

Rail provides an affordable – and very green – option, he explained.

“In a mid-sized company, you can be talking millions of dollars in savings by using rail over truck.

A typical rail car can hold 2.5 to 4.5 truckloads, depending on the type of product,” he explained.
“In the United States, there are weight and other restrictions (on highways), and we can put 95 tonnes on a rail car.”

Even in Ontario in the springtime, there can be road weight restrictions, which increase rail’s value. Being able to ship 200,000 pounds of product on a rail car – compared to 40,000 pounds on a truck – can mean the difference in just-in-time delivery or profit.

“We’re taking trucks off the roads. That’s the green effect,” he said, adding reducing truck weight means less wear and tear on roads. That saves governments of all levels money.

“I had a customer moving treated lumber to its western partner in the United States. They were saving $11,000 per rail car (over truck),” he noted.

“Some of these companies really rely on rail for the transportation of their components, and without the train, they could have gone bust.”
-----------------------------
The locals were able to operate inefficiently since their products were pulling in lots of dollars. That is changing and they will be looking for savings when they can start selling again. The logs will come in by truck from local harvesting locations.

More and more of the long haul products will be going out by rail .....

But hey ..... keep on truckin' .... for now ...

http://www.pinnaclepellet.com

"For those overseas customers wishing to purchase in bulk, we ship via rail to the ports of Vancouver and Prince Rupert for loading loose in ships hold. Being able to utilize all transportation methods, we are thus able to access a practical and economical solution for all your transportation needs."

But Gus we have a rail monopoly now that BC Rail is gone. Most lumber companies around here ship lumber by truck to Edmonton where they have rail competition, and then load it on rail from Edmonton rather than in PG.

In BC a rail car hauls twice what a loaded b-train hauls... close to 45-tons for a b-train by truck, and by rail 90-tons per car.

Rail is efficient for bulk long haul and not short haul between mills or service centers. That will never change. Interesting statistics though.

Also rail is a monopoly and trucking is free enterprise in that entrance into the market is equal opportunity for those that buy equipment and have the appropriate license. Free enterprise ensures competition that keeps shipping costs lower than they otherwise would be, and also ensures the effectiveness of service through competition and innovation that rail can not deliver.

Strange how the mills around here ship by truck the lumber to Edmonton and then load it on CN trains in Edmonton, rather than load them on CN trains here in PG. Obviously trucking has an edge when CN has a monopoly otherwise why not just load it on rail car here in PG?

Money or no money, rail or truck, it doesnt matter. The idea that highways are meant for truckers is not going to keep you out of jail. If you are doing 80 or 100 in 50 foot visibility you will be found guilty of reckless driving and hopefully manslaughter. Get real here guys, I couldnt stop my 1 ton in 50 feet at 80 km, neither could anyone else.
It is insanity to suggest that everone get off the road if they cant go 100 km otherwise they will get in the way of the truckers. Kind of makes me a little more ornery for future tailgaiting incidents involving one of those knights of the road. I suppose when a semi comes up behind me and all i can see is his grill, i ought to be thinking 'that poor man, he has a schedule' rather than 'that f'ing lunatic, he's gonna get someone killed'.

I challenge you caranmacil to name one accident in this area in recent years involving a trucker rear ending a 4-wheeler. It hasn't happened and won't happen. Lots of hyperbole all around here IMO.

50 feet visibility was maybe an exaggeration as well... maybe 50 feet when passing others on the road... visibility changes by the minute and often second... and sometime you have none for brief moments as we all know. Anyone that thinks its safe to drive 50kph on the highway needs to give their head a shake. 80kph is a very reasonable highway speed in any condition and it doesn't make one a tailgater to suggest that is an appropriate slow speed in bad conditions.

I'll bet 50 feet visibility or 200 feet most any tractor can stop quicker than the 4-wheeler and both will take longer than 50 feet to stop. Its hard on the truck, but it can be done.

The real danger from the highway tractor is the rear end accident where the rig is rearended. That is a real threat that kills 85% of people involved in a accident with a highway tractor. That is why tractors should never be stopped on the highway especially in low visibility. In a snow storm the snow blows all up the back of the trailer and covers all the marker and brake lights... so they can be nearly invisible and if they are parked or going abnormally slow they are a danger for anyone in their 1-ton pickup making good time in blowing snow and suddenly no where to go but into the back of a brick wall.

In my example I did not say I drove 50 feet behind the guy, nor did I talk of tail gating. I talked of the ignorance of a driver that causes accidents through lack of self awareness for others on the road. As a professional driver we have to look out for those types all the time and see far more then you would care to hear about.

I find it ironic that the very next day after I made my post 2 people were killed in our area by the very kind of wrong side of the center line skittish driving beyond ability I was railing against. Someone owning the road with little care for those in the opposing lane or driving behind them.... Therefore I and other truckers are the bad guys for pointing out that kind of driving kills people... even though we have a fresh example on the very day most of these posts were made bring with it two unfortunate victims....

Give your heads a shake please and rethink your positions. Better yet think when you drive, and no you don't own the road, we all share it so be aware of the dangers others will experience from your driving.

Maintain an appropriate highway speed, stay on your side of the yellow line, and let traffic get by you if you are holding traffic up due to your lack of ability to maintain a highway speed. Not a lot for anyone to ask for of other motorists... it will save lives if people accepted the message rather than attacked the messenger.