Read my lips, "No new taxes".

Kick this back at the provincial government!
They did it,make them fix it.
What mess!

education is being punished to pay for the olympics??

It has nothing to do with the provincial governement.

It has everything to do with declining enrollment. The school district has lost a third of it's students over the last decade yet has chosen not to close a third of it's schools, or let go a third of it's administration.

They've created their own mess by burying their heads in the sand.

This problem has everything to do with a provincial government which is inept at managing public money. First, the monies to pay for the new Duchess Park Senior Secondary School though promised were reneged on after the work was well underway. Second, the government and the BCTF agreed in jointly arrived at collective agreements to wages, benefits and workload - any costs arising from those negotiation was the duty and responsibility of the province to fund , a duty it has shirked. Third, the government driven and yet un-funded desire for all-day kindergarten has further created an ideologically-based funding problem. Fourth, forcing the amalgamation of the French immersion programs into one single stream school will not only see some children going to schools separate from their siblings, but will endanger student's lives through increased time on the road due the need for bussing. The richness gained by supporting a varied and integrated approach will be lost. Fifth, and notwithstanding the cost, there is a frightening propensity toward segregation in the creation of an aboriginal school. This provincial government through their actions is supporting a racially-based education system, which one could argue is equivalent to the flawed and discredited system in place in the Southern United States into the 1960s. Segregating aboriginal students is clearly not the best way to build an effective education for native people. It is rather a way of separating aboriginal people from the rest of our diverse society - that issue alone should see this government turfed-out in favour of any credible alternative.
This problem is about a provincial government that does not fund its own obligations. Anyone who has any concern for public education should be calling Pat Bell and Shirley Bond. Anyone who knows how to balance a chequebook should be looking for a political alternative to the BC Liberal Party.

One other point that should be mentioned is the cost of paying for carbon credits, a cost that this provincial BC Liberal government has passed on to school districts without any accompanying increase in the funding to pay for it.

This is a government which is incapable of managing money in a responsible trustworthy manner and its representatives should have to account for their decisions in a general election.

You are correct Middleground. The bulk of the problem has to do with Demographics. You think this is a problem wait another 10-15 years and see who is going to pay for an aging population that is not prepared for retirement. I do not agree with everything the government has done but I will not blame them for everything either. We will probably see a new government in this province next election, and we will hear the same negativity. I just can't understand people complaining about an issue that was so plain to see 10 years ago. Demographics. Google it and read what has been predicted for a long time!

Wow to much to comment on... lots of students on the move... crossing central street... being split from your class mates to go to other highschools in grade 10 based on where you live... not a word about the new native school and its implications on the recommendations?

In the last ten years something like 23 schools were closed in the PG area... and that was supposed to be the end of it the last time around. Soon the liberals will find it is more efficient to just have one super school and bus all the kids to it from a 100km radius... neighborhoos be damned....

Soon we will see more abandoned cars parked at these schools as they are sold off on the cheep to slum lords that block access to the old school yards that use to be the neighborhood parks... in one case we even had the guy out with his gun shoting at 'trespassers' at the old North Nechako school... coming to a neighborhood near you.

Funny how people complain about tax increases, yet expect all the schools to remain open and fully staffed, even if they're half full. You can't have it both ways.

As has been mentioned, this is about demographics.

As long as it doesn't screw with the actual learning experience and class size doesn't change. Hopefully, they keep all the teachers and just relocate everyone. It would be a shame to loose a bunch of highly educated, highly trained individuals.

Again, this is about inept financial management. Demographics are certainly a consideration, but the bigger concern is the funding model which is entirely based on demographics, a model that has some cachet in large urban centres, but not in an area such as Schol District 57 in whcih students are distributed over a wide area. A better funding model would be the old Social Credit method of funding schools based on space and students rather than upon Full-time Equivalencies (FTEs) alone.

I should also mention that the bussing issue is a serious threat to students in rural areas who would be facing hours on busses rather than in classrooms, a problem directly related to the use of the FTE funding model for education in this province.

I don't really have a problem with the busing. Living in a rural area is largely a choice based on taste and not on vocation. I don't think that it is right to expect more service for the same tax dollar just because you want to have a larger yard. If you move your family out of town, you have to expect an increase in travel for all members.

What else is new? Board blames the government, and the government blames the boards. So when does someone actually own the problem and address it. I know that education is horribly funded here. The BC system sucks. I talk to parents in AB who get a full day of TA assistance with their special needs kids, not here where you may get a hour a day, that is if the teacher is not somehow blaming you for having a kid with learning differences. Sigh.

I think we need to be way more vocal about this whole matter. Problem is, we lost the power as taxpayers and parents to do anything about it years ago.

I see a real structural problem with BC's system of educating students. There is not enough commitment to get the group ready for the future. I know, I spend time fundraising so the kids have buses for fieldtrips, and playground equipment for recess. So very little is actually provided in schools now that I wonder where is the money going? The blame in the report goes on to name wages, heating and so forth. Good gosh, is that all? And then, declining enrollment, but that seems to be the catch phrase of the formula. We were told last time that the system had enough schools in it to sustain stability and predictability, and now, it is more rhetoric and politics, and now an inability to fund the schools properly. My kids need help and support to succeed even in a small school, and that is so not there, I wonder why I bother sending them to a school in the first place.

So, when does the rhetoric stop, or is the excess funds from the Olympics going to pay for the schools....oops?

travism has it right. If you want to live out in the boonies, you can't expect there to be schools for the few kids that live out there.

I would love to live out in the rural areas, but I know that would be harder on my kids, and I could see this trend coming towards school closures, so I stayed in town.

This is absolutely about demographics. If the population were increasing and they were closing schools and cutting funding, that would be scandalous. This is about managing to the population levels.

The scary thing is that this trend towards fewer kids is not turning itself around any time soon.

We also need to take a serious look at another cost maker, being the FSA test. This testing has little impact on generating higher student learning or morale.

So the Native only School is FINISHED or is there STILL money for the Natives?

I guess the only way to reopen these schools in the long term is to start having more babies. But don't all start procreating all at once. We have to pace ourselves now...:-)

When I was a kid growing up in PG, the population was around 70,000. The population is slightly higher now, but the ratio of children, adults and seniors is not the same as back in the 70's and 80's. Is this a long term trend, or just a waxing/waning of baby booms? In the 60's the pulp mills opened up, the population almost doubled, as the new folks ( mostly young adults) settled in PG, they started families of their own, and in the 70's there are plenty of children around. 20 plus years later we would expect to start seeing the next generation emerge in the 90's, but around that time we had a mass exodus of folks from PG to Alberta, lower mainland etc. So the next wave baby boom did not really have an effect.

Perhaps this is simplistic, but unless we were to see something comparable to the big industry boom like the pulp mills in the 60's, PG's rate of births will stay similar to what it is now, with smaller and smaller ripple effects from the original baby boom of the 70's.

Save our schools. Dim the lights, turn on Marvin Gaye, and let's get it on.

Posted by: verballabel -
"We also need to take a serious look at another cost maker, being the FSA test. This testing has little impact on generating higher student learning or morale"

So true.....we need to ensure the teachers encourage their students to take these tests instead of taking adds out in the paper trying to scare the parents into withdrawing the students from class that day.

Take a look at the results of these tests that are posted every year. Private systems (FSA mandatory) knock it out of the park compared to the public system for less than half the cost per student. Add the cost of the schools that are paid for by the private system and the public system is a complete failure. Teachers are not held accountable and that is the only reason they are against these tests. They are the instructors that are failing the students.

"Teachers are not held accountable and that is the only reason they are against these tests."

Truer words have never been spoken.

Private schools do get funding from the government. It would be nice to hear how they are affected. Seems to be quiet on that front,why?

Private schools receive just under 50% of the per student rate that the public system gets. They have had their P.A.C. funding and gaming funding all cut as well.

The Private Schools have to cover all their own expenses and that includes the cost of the schools that they own so that just makes sense. At $2,500.00 per year that the parents pay (on a monthly payment plan even) the level of education is far superior. All for less than a pack of smokes per day, so claiming it is out of reach to all is a joke.

A parent has the choice to invest in their children's education....if they choose not to....who should they blame?

“So very little is actually provided in schools now that I wonder where is the money going?”

I believe that there are to many bureaucrats in every department in government that eat up the money before it actually trickles down to the students, patients, natives & any others. Government has ballooned out of control. Our best man has worked for Forestry for over 40 years and he is sickened by the waste in his department alone. He says that what three of them used to do now take 7 people. He sits most of his day with nothing to do.

Since this recession started government has not reduced on bit if anything they have gotten larger. When is it going to be time to skim off the fat. Government employees are increasing and the tax payer group is shrinking. It is time that WE THE PEOPLE cleans up the mess of years and years of abuse in politics. It is an embarrassment that it has been left to fester for this long.

Anyone know of any groups that are planning protests, etc?

What else is new? Board blames the government, and the government blames the boards. So when does someone actually own the problem and address it. I know that education is horribly funded here. The BC system sucks. I talk to parents in AB who get a full day of TA assistance with their special needs kids, not here where you may get a hour a day, that is if the teacher is not somehow blaming you for having a kid with learning differences. Sigh.

I think we need to be way more vocal about this whole matter. Problem is, we lost the power as taxpayers and parents to do anything about it years ago.

I see a real structural problem with BC's system of educating students. There is not enough commitment to get the group ready for the future. I know, I spend time fundraising so the kids have buses for fieldtrips, and playground equipment for recess. So very little is actually provided in schools now that I wonder where is the money going? The blame in the report goes on to name wages, heating and so forth. Good gosh, is that all? And then, declining enrollment, but that seems to be the catch phrase of the formula. We were told last time that the system had enough schools in it to sustain stability and predictability, and now, it is more rhetoric and politics, and now an inability to fund the schools properly. My kids need help and support to succeed even in a small school, and that is so not there, I wonder why I bother sending them to a school in the first place.

So, when does the rhetoric stop, or is the excess funds from the Olympics going to pay for the schools....oops?

I accidentally double posted, so if an admin can take the extra one down, I would appreciate it.

As far as the lobbying and organizing goes, expect it loud and clear, again. But at the same time, this parent is making her own plan B and C. I am very tired of the lack of the constant bickering and politics that education actually does in this province. It would seem that the school board is only good enough to launch political careers, isn't that right Ms. Bond? I am fed up with rhetoric, cause that is not helping my kid learn. There are ways to educate every child, and some of these things cost very little, but when more time is spent on wind, and less on solutions....

So we're looking at about $400.00 in increased school taxes per household in S.D. 57 to make this go away. All in favour? Didn't think so.

Fact is as a society we're always wanting gov't service but don't want to be taxed for it. I'm not saying the Prov Gov't hasn't done some boneheaded things (re: Olympics), but the decimation of the forest industry has decimated their revenues and hard choices have to be made. If parents don't want their school to close, then they should consider opening their own wallets.

Sorry...I meant very tired of the constant conflict and bickering and politicking around education while very little actually makes education better for our kids.

I'm sure it seemed nice to build dozens of 100-150 student schools back in the 70's on every street corner. Turns out, that wasn't such a wise move. In Alberta, almost all schools were built to house 500-2000 students and even they are closing schools due to demographics. There are plenty of decisions that have turned out and will not turn out to be good ones. At least we still have people willing to make them. If those people listened to most of you lot, they'd head for the hills.

I noticed Ct Ft George was back on the list. The school board is determined to close this school for some reason. First time they were told not enough students, get your numbers up. Second time they were told that they had too many students & the school board wanted to move the traditional program to another school this after the parents and neighbours had done what they were told to do (get the number up).

My understanding is that both Harwin and Ct Ft George schools are full, so the only way they can put them together is that they are expecting a lot of student to move from both of them to the Aboriginal school.

The aboriginal school is still on the table. It may get cut but who knows. There is a seperate comitttee working on it and will present to the board soon.

These cuts are necessary. Amalgamting French Immersion only makes sense. The class sizes are as small as 14 in some schools.
(Great for instruction but unfair to the kids in the regular program)
Salmon and Shady Valley should have been closed years ago (20-30 sts) and 2 teachers, a custodian, maintenance on the buildings, heat, grass cut, snow plowed.....

Unemployment rate may jump in Sept. Lots of teachers and support staff likely to be joining the forestry workers in the EI line.

Posted by: PaysHisOwnWay on January 20
"Take a look at the results of these tests that are posted every year. Private systems (FSA mandatory) knock it out of the park compared to the public system for less than half the cost per student. Add the cost of the schools that are paid for by the private system and the public system is a complete failure. Teachers are not held accountable and that is the only reason they are against these tests. They are the instructors that are failing the students."

Ever wonder why private schools do better on these tests? Those schools tend to have fewer students that don't want to be there, classes with fewer students, classes with fewer/no disruptive students, etc. If the school has a problem with the student, the student is asked to leave. I believe that most of these private schools are in areas that have higher average incomes. Parents in those areas also tend to have higher levels of education themselves and in general, promote the importance of education to their children. The public system is designed to be used by everyone. I look at how my son is doing in school and can't wait until he is done. Courses he wants/needs aren't offered because not enough students want to take them, classes are constantly disrupted by kids that have no desire to learn, administrators are not allowed to kick kids out for being twits, etc. Total opposite of what goes on in a private school. I think that most teachers try to do their best in the system they have to work in/chose to work in. This government seems to want to privatize the education system and is well on its way. They are creating public doubt in the present system by misusing test results. Why do we need to publicly compare schools at all? Can't we just look at each school's results, figure out what's being done well, figure out what's not being done well and move ahead? Once the public has been tricked into thinking that the public school system isn't working, what will be the next step the government takes? My guess will be that they recommend everyone enroll their kids in private (for profit) schools. The government kicks in half the fee, the parents pay the other half. The government saves lots of money and no longer has to worry about teacher unions. As for holding teachers accountable, we regularly talk with our son's teachers. When things aren't going well, we ask why?

As for the original article, it's a shame to me that we have to close schools and lay off teachers, but if the enrollment is down, we need to do something. I sure hope that the waste on the administrative side is looked at too.

My3Centsworth said "Can't we just look at each school's results, figure out what's being done well, figure out what's not being done well and move ahead?"
Is that not the purpose of the FSA?
Also the parents have a large amount of control over what happens in the private schools. Not only can they get rid of problem students,also problem educators.
My 13 year old butted heads with a bully for a teacher last in the public system ( Grade 7). I guess raising her to stand up for herself was the wrong thing to do. Grade 6 was and 8 so far have been great.Continually on the honour roll. We've been told what a great student she is. I could go in to more detail but it's in the past.
So what is your problem with the private schools costing the taxpayers 1/2 the amount of the public schools?

Good luck Prince George...You certainly have your share of "Knuckledraggers" living there.

Per student funding...is BUCKED...Schools still have to pay the bills,everytime a school loses one student they lose 8,000$ dollars...But the school expenses don`t change..Heat,light,GOVERNMENT negotiated contracts..etc etc...

I have one more thing to say to you "Knuckledraggers"

"Ignorance is Bliss"

Boomer, I'm glad your daughter is having a better year.

I think you need to compare apples to apples and not to oranges. The FSA test was originally used to see how schools were doing in teaching the mandated curriculum. Now it is being used to rate/rank schools. If you want to rank schools, do it properly and fairly. And, don't do it with some ulterior motive.

I have no problem with folks paying extra to have their kids educated. If they've earned the money and feel it's better for their kids, go for it. If the option was available to me, and if I had more children, I might even consider it.

If the education system IS privatized, will it do better than the system we have now? Will everyone be able to afford it? Will everyone be able to attend? Will we end up with different levels of education for people from different socioeconomic levels?

Not my problem for much longer. Graduation is coming closer.

I guess I would like to see more accountability in the public system. This goes for all levels of government.In the private sector dead weight is cut out. That is unless a union is involved , protecting useless employees.
Before the union members in this crowd get on my case let me say that I am a firm believer in unions. I just get tired of seeing white vehicles with SD57 on the doors sitting at Timmy's for half an hour during a 15 minute coffee. That doesn't include the travel time and fuel to get there. Management not having the Kahuna's to do something about it is even more frustrating.

The FSA's are a useless waste of taxpayers money because they are giving a standardized tests to classes with teachers who have 'teacher autonomy'. The teacher can choose to cover concepts later in the year that may be tested on the FSA. Private schools probably pressure their teachers to cover 'testable' material (FSA material) early in the year to pump up their scores.

This is not an indicator of true learning, only test practice. It's like cramming for a midterm the night before the test. Test that same crammed material 6 months later and see what the retention rate is (true learning).

To administer the FSA's, teachers are required to take time away from actually teaching as well as time to prep for them. Talk about a waste of tax dollars, then print a report, send it to the media and let the private schools boast about their rankings.

Kids even know it is BS. The test is now online and they just click their way through it without reading the questions. Why try when it doesn't affect your grades in school or have any effect on your life?

Why try when it doesn't affect your grades in school or have any effect on your life?

Maybe that attitude is why we are in the mess we're in.

Dirtyrottenresearcher@
Comparing the Aboriginal Choice School to the segregated schools of the American South is totally inappropriate. On the one hand, the Choice School will not be restricted to aboriginal students. On the other hand, aboriginal students will be free to attend other schools. That's not segregation.

Why don't you know this? It is made clear in the proposal for the Aboriginal Choice School and in numerous discussions. There is no basis whatever for the idea that aboriginal students will be required to attend the Choice School or that non-aboriginal students will be excluded.

Maybe one day our city council can erect a sign at our city limits saying "Prince George is a "School-free zone". Just like Vancouver with their "Nuclear-free zone signs. Could happen. Is this better?

boomer:

I fail to understand your logic.

Do you put lots of effort into things which do not affect your life?

"Do you put lots of effort into things which do not affect your life? "

Yes. It's called being a human being. You might want to look into it.

The goverment has failed to live up to its commitments. the gov said they would pay for full time Kindergarden, for teachers raises ect. It is not the school boards falt for that, but is the their falt for building Heather Park, not only was it not need, it distroyed our smaller schools on the Hart, Everybody keeps saying rural areas, I didn't realize that the Hart was a rural area, have we been moved out of city limits? Yes there is to many administration , and hopefully they will cut some of them. Does anyone realize that Nukko Lake School is a newer and nicer school than Southridge so why are they closeing it, if they left the grade 6&7 their what would that do for the numbers. What if all the kids in the French Classes at Austin Road don't go to the new school, is HPMS going to hold all the students. Where is the money for renos going to come from because it will cost money to make it suitable for smaller kids.

MrPG

I fail to understand your logic as well.

Put yourself in a child's position sitting in front of a computer terminal answering a multiple choice test. They have been told that this little test does not affect their marks in school. This test will not be marked by the teacher or any feedback given. This test has no value. This test is used for the provincial government to have some data to put out media releases... thats it.

Do you expect this grade 7 child to put forth their best effort? We put forth effort when there is reason or value to do so. What is the reason or value?

Things that affect your life:
Your health-put some effort in, eat well and exercise
Your job- do your best because your pay cheque and family depend on it.
Your family- work hard to make sure they are raised with morals and ethics that you "value"


Do you put lots of effort into things which do not affect your life? "

Yes. It's called being a human being. You might want to look into it.


Explain this please MrPG because I don't follow.

When I look at the recommendations I see no information which tells me anything other than which schools are being closed and which schools have some sort of grade assignments.

Where is the total information available which shuld be map-based and identify for each school the class years, number of classes, studetns per each class, number of teachers, non-teaching administrators, walking catchement area, bussed in studetns, etc. etc.

That would give me some ide of the complexity of the problem.

If I was on the Board, the above really tells me squat. I could not form a decision based on as little information as that.

I see the point on the test results. They really are irrelevant.

I think the important thing is the students see the relevance of their learning as applied to the real world and in a way that interests their curiosities to learn more. I'm not sure how that can be measured with simplistic tests?

As for the private schools being in good neighborhoods... that’s not the case. I would argue that the ones in PG are located in some of the roughest neighborhoods in town and their teachers work for a fraction of the benefits of the public school system teachers... these private school also have trouble students (that’s where most from the public schools end up). The biggest difference between public and private is the parents have a say in the topics their children will be exposed to in a private school, as well as the preference for a moral focus influencing their identity.

Gus, the report is 45 pages and can be viewed on the main page of the SD 57 website.

It gives rationale for the plan.

There are 2 reports - the Aboriginal Choice School and the Sustainability report - the first one with no dollars attached; the second with dollars attached - the first leaves one in the dark at the cost of implementation - $$ should have been part of that report.

GrantG wrote "Good luck Prince George...You certainly have your share of "Knuckledraggers" living there."

Let me guess; GrantG must live in a location that is superior to P.G. and where he is surrounded by other elitists.

I really hate people who denigrate others based on class, social status or the region where they live.
metalman, rural hick, and glad.

Gratch - "Do you expect this grade 7 child to put forth their best effort? We put forth effort when there is reason or value to do so. What is the reason or value?"

Yes I do. The kids get their FSA marks when done and the entire class knows who scored what. There are even awards for top marks on a School, City, District, Provincial basis. Pride!! Unless of course you think everyone should get a participation ribbon and winners should be done away with. This is grade 4 and 7 basic math and language arts not rocket science. If these kids do not know it.....the teachers are to blame.

Eagleone - Correct. The private schools are full of the public school system rejects. Once they have been expelled from every other school they end up in the private system. Once there are rules laid down that are enforced, learning aids to help out, these kids pull up their socks.
The learning assistants are full time (paid for 100% by the school). They do not get cut in the private system if they are needed regardless of seniority.

"Do you put lots of effort into things which do not affect your life? "

Yes. It's called being a human being. You might want to look into it.

Explain this please MrPG because I don't follow. "

Do I have to? Really?

Have you ever volunteered your time, given to charity, helped someone out for the sake of helping, been considerate to another person?

It's not always about 'What's in it for me?' I learned this back in my teenage years. I matured. I grew up. Clearly you've got some work to do.

I've heard the total cost for the Olympics will be $6 Billion, with some of that bill being paid for by corporate interests. What is the remainder? No one has told the taxpayers yet.

I feel sorry for Margaret McDiarmid, the new education minister. She inherited a mess made by Shirley Bond. Shirley knew from her many years here as a trustee, but once she got into office seemed to forget about the unique challenges faced by Northern districts; transportation, heating, geography. Many secretary-treasurers in the North have argued with the folks down in Victoria for some sort of equity, to no avail.

Not that Shirley cares, but your legacy to this province and district is one in which you left a declining education system in the worst shape it has ever been. Because you have foisted demands on school districts, such as unrealistic provincial teacher CBA's, Full Day K, and an insistence on focusing on literacy. Not a bad thing to leave, but how about the dollars to pay for it as well?

Not that you care. You have a nice gold-plated pension to sit back on.

Re: FSA testing

I can offer a different point of view. I have homeschooled, used Ministry of Education correspondence curriculum, enrolled in the public system and the private system.

All forms of education must meet graduation standards to obtain the BC Dogwood diploma.

To compare apples to apples, one would assume that the correspondence curriculum for a grade level would be identical to what is received in any public school in this province. It is not!! The distance ed course IS the standard. It is also of, imo, a much better quality in some respects to what is achieved in the public school classroom.
The private school classrooms seem to exceed the distance ed standards.
Both private and homeschooling offer the added benefits of structuring the curriculum to the individual learner due to smaller class sizes which allow the instructor much greater flexibility.

The FSA in the PUBLIC system, provides a way to determine whether the individual has met ministry minimum standards. Teachers create the curriculum they teach. If your family moves in the middle of a year, your child will have to adapt to not only to a new environment, but also to completely different curriculum. This happens whether you transfer within a district or outside to a different district.

The FSA is the only tool available to the parent to know how the kids measure up. I personally feel that the FSA is very important.

The way we deliver and finance public education in this province needs to be addressed adequately. This debate resurfaces EVERY year. It is an issue that has never been resolved appropriately to date. The standard theme every year is for more money to be thrown at the school districts. I firmly believe that there needs to be better management. I heard comments on the news today agreeing that the board procrastinated the school closures for several years now; that the funding formulas are flawed; and basically trying to maintain service at an unsustainable level.
Demographics are part of the problem as well.
Presently, in all levels of government, there seems to be an imbalance in how the budgets are prepared. It isn't just the school district having this problem.
I must agree with those who have said it has been nothing of short of spend, spend, spend and that, imo, has to stop but it also MUST be balanced with a properly funded system as well.
The system is nothing short of a mess, imo.