Will the city have to pay the new downtown business tax?

Interesting comments by Opinion250. Some of them are even correct, unfortunately, not that many!

Sounds more like the city bailed out Commonwealth went things turned sour.
No money for roads, but lots of coin to buy old buildings no one else wants. Maybe Rodgers should pick up on a few empty schools.

I have the luxury of knowing who is making the comments. As you Mr.PG are aware there have been a lot of people eating on the pie, you included. If you feel it is so important to point out any deficiencies in the story, then step up and tell us all.
You are already aware originally the media was sworn to secrecy on the release of information on the development, so members of the media decided they would write it anyway. We at 0-250 stayed with what we promised.
And No the city does not pay the new DBIA levy.

"UNBC satellite engineering campus complete with student residences located downtown" This would be the smartest thing that the city has done in a long time.

In a previous story on this site it stated that the Northern Trust Initiative finianced 75% of the cost of the initial sale.

So if I understand this correctly the Group Purchasing the property borrowed approx $1,875,000.00 from NDIT. Now the mandate for NDIT is to loan money for projects that would create jobs etc in the Northern Interior. (This is old BC Rail sale money)

It appears that the project was about condominiums, etc;, however once this project fell through, we then had an outstanding loan, and no project, and no apparent way (it appears) to repay the loan.

Then to the rescue comes the City, who buys the property for approx the same amount as it originally sold for, which then allows the original buyer to repay the loan, and Bobs your uncle.

The statement that when the Northern Trust Development became aware that the original purchasers were interested in selling, they notified the City, who had an interest in buying is rather lame considering that our Mayor is on the Board of Directors of NDIT.

So being a backwoods boy, who spends most of his time kicking cow paddys, whistling in the wind, chewing straw, going to the carnival, and eating cotton candy, and generally being unaware of the inner workings of the real world, maybe someone can tell me if we have been taken to the cleaners on this move.

If the original intent was for the developers, and the Province, and UNBC to develop this block, how the hell did we end up with $2.5 Million in real estate that will be gifted to the Province for a tax payer funded building, and no commercial development.

One must keep in mind the loss of taxes on this building, along with the following losses.

1. CN Building on 1st Ave. (IPG)

2. Old William Moving and Storage Building on 4th and Scotia.

3. Buildngs on 4th and Victoria that were purchased for the new Police Station

4. Outrigger Cafe, and CKPG Building recently purchased and torn down by the City.

5. Norgate Auto Body building on lower Patricia.

All these places paid taxes at one point however now belong to the City and therefore **No Taxes** Guess who makes up the shortfall, and also pays for the property. Duhhhhhhh

Palopu,

to go along with that they wont be paying the DBIA levy, offloading more onto the merchants in the area, yet reaping any reward that may come of it.

I as well am having a hard time understanding why they seem to be hell bent on lowering the tax base.

Paying 2.5 million for the property then gifting it out? Somebody please explain to me where that benefits the citizens of Prince George? I have a nice home I would gladly sell the City and allow them to make a gift of it as well, who do I contact?

"UNBC satellite engineering campus complete with student residences located downtown" This would be the dumbest thing the university has done ever. Better to build their synergies in one location with a great view and none of the negative implications distracting young students from their studies.

And no I don't think the city should be involved at all in any way with realestate. Who is to say who is buying high, and who is selling low, and who is scratching whoms back, and how that all relates to the honesty in government factor?

Palopu, I find that very interesting... especially since NDIT is supposed to be loaning money to non-profit enterprises? Seems that changes depending on political capital involved? How convenient that the city then bails out a failed investment by the NDIT....

And the whole liquor license and Cadillac Ranch thing is funny business as well... its not like the city let it be known they were planning on renting that place out again as a nightclub, or surely they would have more proposals submitted other than the single one they received for such a lucrative business?

Seems the public is not privy to much if anything at city hall (old boys club?). I wonder if this is all part of the MyPG plan... and when will we here from the new $100,000 a year propaganda minister to share his views on all of this communication that seems to be lacking?

hear not here

Eagelone .... you, in my opinion, have made the smartest statement on here so far.

The City has been after UNBC to build downtown for almost a decade. "The university should have been built downtown". "The university should be building residences downtown." “Having students downtown will turn the downtown around.”

The problem is, the university is its own entity. It has to look out after its own best interest. Its primary responsibility is to its students and to its most efficient and effective way of dealing with its infrastructure.

We saw the new gaming centre closing and being rebuilt in a new configuration adjacent to where it should have been in the first place. I do not know if the reason given was the only reason, but it was a credible one - a separated operation was too expensive to maintain and when allowed to do so, it was the best to cut potential losses and build where operation costs of the components would be the least expensive.

The very same holds for the operations of UNBC. The campus is on the hill. Face that fact of life until UNBC has grown to a sustainable economy of scale. It is not there yet. Let it experiment slowly with some downtown operations when the time comes. That time is not now, in my opinion. Most things happen naturally when their time comes. Forcing things like this creates a subsidized operation.

It will not be beneficial to the City and the university and the province to inject a probable white elephant into the downtown. It will just make matters worse. Having a boarded up facility in 10 years post construction following bailout after bailout to make the university operating budgets balance is not something any taxpayer or any politician working to look out for the best interest of the taxpayer should accept.

The government is not going to provide funds forever to operate a university of such a small size on an artificially split campus. This is not Vancouver where an entirely different dynamic has caused downtown campuses of three comparatively very large post secondary education institutes to grow over two+ decades.

We are a city of around 80,000 with no growth in sight quite yet. There are a few good people attempting to make it happen and a few signs that some of them are on the right track. This is not one of them.

Funding an artificial situation which has the potential of sucking the life out of the best new operation to come to this city in the last two decades is bad business.

It is interesting to see what has happened to bring these activities out in the open. I honestly cannot figure why it has come in this most awkward fashion.

Everyone seems to have the best interest of the City in mind. However, there are so many egos playing the game and so many special interest groups wanting part of the pie and having a part of the pie, it is impossible to achieve.

Listening to them all, I have to scratch my head how they manage to ever accomplish anything.

This has been brewing for at least a year. People are getting antsy. And now a whole city population, at least those who are interested in such matters, are scratching their heads saying “what gives?” There are no answers, there are only a thousand more questions.

It will be interesting to see who will finally come out to clearly describe what is intended to happen and when, given the current economic situation of not funding new ventures of such a magnitude.

"Although the new General Manager of the Ramada says she has no immediate plans for a cold beer and wine store, it is generally thought the Ramada would like to move the cold beer and wine store to its hotel"

Is this worth a "double take"? Am I reading this right?

We just got rid of what many people think was one of the negative aspects of the PG Hotel, their liquor outlet.

We are now told that the Ramada might build a liquor outlet on the opposite side of the street? Serving whom?

Tell me this is an April Fools joke.

One more thing. Keep your eyes on the shells and watch where the little ball is at all times.

Is this a deal which has gone sour, and the City has bailed others out as some are assuming?

Or is the "universe unfolding as it should" or was intended to do all along?

As Ted Coole is paraphrased elsewher to have said: "..... he finally accepted an offer from a group of investors - just not the investors he first thought"

Reports are that the city paid $2.5 million for the old hotel...does anyone have an idea what it's going to cost to tear down and dispose of the old structure?? And who is goind to pay for that?? It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think a building of that age has asbestos inside to be removed at great expense. And who is going to pay for that??

It has been much quieter not having a liquor outlet downtown. Okay this must be an April Fool's joke or a gross error in planning. I'm with Gus. Why move the cold beer and wine store across the street? Is the Ramada prepared to take on the former patrons of the PG Hotel? It wouldn't matter how loud the Ramada played classical music outside to chase the street folks away. Downtown revitalization in my opinion does not include having a cold beer and wine store...especially on George St. of all places!

Is this Big Wooden Building going to burn Wood for heat ? or are they going to burn Wood Pellets for heat ? Are they also going to supply heat for other building downtown. If your going for Wood-Go all the way.

The downtown has been in limbo for a long time and nothing is going to improve if somebody doesn't take the bull by the horns.

The mayor and council have done just that and they have a strategy which they intend to implement.

That's great news! I wish them Good Luck!

Strategy = bail out by the province and UNBC?

I've also been told by another bar owner in PG that that the Cadillac is going to reopen as another night club & by the people who owned the PG Hotel. Nice to see that happening.

This is a back door deal with us the public being kept in the dark. Commonwealth and the players bought the PG ho with the license in hopes of making a big profit....buy low sell high...its the golden rule of investment.
Unfortunately with real estate in this town it has its ups and downs..so they sold to the city without the license. What is the cost of the license? I heard $800,000? So if they are able to sell that off then they have actually made 800,000 in the time it took to buy and sell.
Depending on how many players are in this group its a good payday. Now they have no liabilities (in the form of the old building) and an asset in the form of the license. At our (taxpayers) expense.

I think this may work out in the long term. If the city can hold alot of the land and rid some of the bad establishments they could be ready when the economy is better and developers are willing to build. I just wish they could get the local band on board who has been doing good things for Native health and figure out a strategy to help get some of those people off the street.

So tell me, why would you call this a back door deal? What right does the public have to know what the Ramada, the PG Hotel, and Commonwealth have done? It might be nice to know, but this is a real estate and possibly a liquor lincense purchase transaction.

Are you suggesting something?

So far the strategy is to get them out of sight.

It goes like this: The City expresses an interest in acquiring a property. Right away the asking price goes through the roof.

Now, imagine if some other party would go and buy the same property at a way more reasonable price. Then the other party offers the City the same property and makes some profit. As long as the City gets a good deal...everybody should be happy!

Especially the taxpayer, us.

"Strategy = bail out by the province and UNBC?"

So, what is the problem if indeed there is one?

The Wood Innovation Building will probably be heated by the Citys Community Energy Plan that is still lurking in the BackGround. This plan has not gone away, the City will try and push it through. They have already borrowed $3 Million from NDIT for this project. Hopefully PACHA and the Millar Addition can kill this plan.

Insofar as ***Whats the big deal** The big deal is that the City of Prince George will end up with $2.5 Million dollars worth of property, and then **if you can beleive the rumours** gift it to the Province for the Wood Innovation Building, so that at the end of the day we end up paying for::::

A. The Property (City taxes)
B. The New Building (Provincial taxes)
C. Maintenance costs (Provincial taxes)
D. Loss of taxes from the original hotel

Benefits. Another Government building downtown, and probably little else to go with it. So I would suggest from a taxpayers point of view, that this is not a good thing.

The editorial says:"It is very likely the City will turn the property over to the Province for the wood Innovation center."

Well, after it has been turned over the new owner will be the Province. The other expression that has popped up is *gifting it to the Province* - once the owner has made a gift it will belong to the one to whom it was given as a gift, in this case the Province.

I rather see some Provincial Taxes (our money) go to a Wood Innovation Center in Prince George than a Wood Innovation Center in some other B.C. town.

Are there any people in Prince George who are opposed to getting it here?

The downtown will get a brand new modern building right across from the Ramada which surely deserves to get the uplift that George Street so badly needs.

Let's hope that other developments will follow asap.

It's probably not out of the realm of possibility that the Wood Innovation Centre would've required some sort of cost sharing initiative anyway. If the portion paid by the city ends up being 2.5M for the land, so be it. That's not allot of dough especially when you are talking about something that "could" have dramatic impacts on improving the downtown core, increasing the attractiveness for other businesses to relocate there (more tax dollars), etc.

I agree with PrinceGeorge when they said at least somebody is taking the bull by the horns now. Other than a handful of businesses, our local business community has done pretty much nothing to improve the downtown core over the years. Heck, most of them don't even care about improving it. They don't sweep in front of their buildings, the landlords don't know what fresh paint is and most of them don't even want to participate in a DBIA type group.

Someone has to start doing some work and if it's the city that has to take the initiative instead of the private sector, all the power to them. Normally one would expect the private sector to invest money and try to improve their situation, but this is PG and our private sector doesn't exactly follow the model of many other communities.

If within a decade or so we can look at the downtown core and say "it's actually looking pretty good" and it cost us even 10M, I'd say it's well worth it for the other benefits it will bring to the community.

You sound like a municipal politician yourself NMG. I too appreciate the beauty of flower baskets, clean sidewalks, store fronts that are pleasing to look at, but the reality that Prince George residents are facing everyday is as a result of bad decisions made by past municipal leaders, the same decisions that we are experiencing with today’s council, perhaps even worse. When our roads are in such disrepair, as a result of dollars diverted from infrastructure and redirected to other areas, that our City streets actually present as a hazard to anyone who drives on them, I wonder what it is going to take for the condition of our roads to become a priority to our Municipal leaders? I know that I have almost become accustomed to navigating the obstacle course of potholes year after year during my daily drive to and from work. I wonder if ICBC is tracking the reported accidents as a result of pot holes and streets in bad condition, and how these accidents impact our insurance rates. Should we really be worrying about “looking pretty good” on the outside, while the core of our City’s infrastructure is diseased and crumbling? The reality of life for Prince George families is that we are seeing our schools closed, our children being forced to endure lengthy bus rides, and quality of education being seriously negatively impacted, I find it rather upsetting that our elected Municipal leaders are making financial decisions like this, without community consultation. It makes me shake my head and ask what Country and generation am I living in again?! I wonder about our Mayor Rogers and his role on the Board of Directors for NDIT; isn’t this a conflict of interest and how come nobody is asking about this? How can he sit on the Board of Directors for NDIT and also as our Mayor, involved in a real estate deal where a significant financial profit is being made by at least one of the parties? I question how beautifying the downtown is going to make this worth it to the residents of this City. At the end of the day those directly involved in the deal will benefit, but I wonder at whose expense?

You sound like a municipal politician yourself NMG. I too appreciate the beauty of flower baskets, clean sidewalks, store fronts that are pleasing to look at, but the reality that Prince George residents are facing everyday is as a result of bad decisions made by past municipal leaders, the same decisions that we are experiencing with today’s council, perhaps even worse. When our roads are in such disrepair, as a result of dollars diverted from infrastructure and redirected to other areas, that our City streets actually present as a hazard to anyone who drives on them, I wonder what it is going to take for the condition of our roads to become a priority to our Municipal leaders? I know that I have almost become accustomed to navigating the obstacle course of potholes year after year during my daily drive to and from work. I wonder if ICBC is tracking the reported accidents as a result of pot holes and streets in bad condition, and how these accidents impact our insurance rates. Should we really be worrying about “looking pretty good” on the outside, while the core of our City’s infrastructure is diseased and crumbling? The reality of life for Prince George families is that we are seeing our schools closed, our children being forced to endure lengthy bus rides, and quality of education being seriously negatively impacted, I find it rather upsetting that our elected Municipal leaders are making financial decisions like this, without community consultation. It makes me shake my head and ask what Country and generation am I living in again?! I wonder about our Mayor Rogers and his role on the Board of Directors for NDIT; isn’t this a conflict of interest and how come nobody is asking about this? How can he sit on the Board of Directors for NDIT and also as our Mayor, involved in a real estate deal where a significant financial profit is being made by at least one of the parties? I question how beautifying the downtown is going to make this worth it to the residents of this City. At the end of the day those directly involved in the deal will benefit, but I wonder at whose expense?

Watch for the announcement that asbestos and mould have 'been discovered' in the buiding during preparation for demolition. I know for a fact that the ancient boiler in the basement is insulated with the A word product, and you can bet that there is more. It will thus costalotta dough to tear the old girl down (or to keep her up)
metalman.

I am for this development, mainly because people will otherwise say 10 years later "if only" and blame a whole bunch of people, not for stopping it from going to PG, but for stopping it from going where it belongs, at the University.

This will be not unlike another office building. It will house people doing work and studying. It will not be a place to which anyone else will flock.

How many people from the population at large now go to the medical building at UNBC, or the Science building, other than those who use the building? This is not retail, it is not an arena, it is not a hotel, it is not a series of restaurants, it is not a library or a swimming pool.

It is like building another plaza 400 only it will have more wood and glass than brick, because brick is a no-no in the year 2010. It is not the flavour of the day.

It will be a nice building. It will be an expensive building.

We had a 1980's style nice building when the Plaza 400 was built. We had a 1990's nice building when the courthosue was built. ALL on GEORGE ST.!!!

The question of the day then becomes, how many nice buildings does it take to turn George St. around since tow was obviously not enough?

The next question is, how many office type buildings does it take to shift the centre of gravity of office type buildings from Victoria to George? If the CBD is divided into two equal sized and populated office centres will the older centre on Victoria start going downhill?

Where is the next PG Hotel that will emerge to prevent people from populating the downtown?

Where is the City's Plan????????????

Why do we have an OCP?

Why does it take years for the OCP to get reviewed?????

Is it any wonder the people in this City feel like they are left out of this?

BTW, if anyone wants to see a downtown university, take a walk through the University of Toronto. It is actually a relatively segregated enclave of some 60,000 students and employees occupying about a square kilometer (4 times the size of the Prince George CBD). For its size, the economic impact on the surrounding precincts is relatively minor.

The same can be said for the University of Ottawa's campus adjacent to the downtown.

Such enterprises in downtown Canada do not have as much influence as this city thinks they have.

Considering the decline in the population of Prince George, the demise of many business's, the decrease in enrolments in School District 57 and UNBC (undergraduate). Where do you suppose we will get the people from to fill the offices of the New Wood Innovation Centre.

I understand some space will be allotted to UNBC and the balance will be Government offices. Does this mean that other areas in the City will be vacated to fill the space.

It matters little if his building is funded by the Province, the Feds, or the City of Prince George it is all tax payers money, and the real question is.

Is it needed and necessary? Putting up a structure downtown that costs millions of dollars for the sole reason of upgrading the downtown borders on insanity.

Only Governments with unlimited funding can play such assinine games.

Obviously we need some tax reductions. If we take away some tax money, we can take away some of the waste.

You are dead on northerngurl .... years of bad planning or no planning and a total laissez faire attitude cannot be undone by a mere $50 .. $60 ... $70 + million dollar development, especially one which will be done over many years.

No one is going to sit around waiting for that to unfold. What could end up as hollow promises do not make for solid investment reasons. Continuing sprawl promotion will not either.

We have to get weaned off the need for growth in population to keep this city going. We have to deal with the golf course. It has the makings of continuing to steer development away from downtown. No one is facing that reality, at least not publicly.

SGOG? .... might as well throw it in the garbage. No one in any power and authority position has said this is what will happen and this is how we are going to make it happen. It was just another pie in the sky exercise.

*It matters little if his building is funded by the Province, the Feds, or the City of Prince George it is all tax payers money, and the real question is.

Is it needed and necessary?*

It is too late to ask that question since the new Prince George Wood Innovation and Design Center was announced as part of the throne speech in the Legislature in Victoria in 2009.

Now the Provincial Government - which made the decision and has the last word - wants to follow through on it and make it happen here in Prince George, as planned.

What exactly IS the problem if indeed there is one....I am extremely puzzled and somewhat in disbelief...perhaps Kamloops or some other town would be more appreciative.

It is encouraging to see these developments but I don't think the original intentions of the NDIT was for bridge financing for real estate speculation. If it is, can others tap into it or just the connected?

Gus, if the city is buying something from private group of individuals with our tax dollars then I have a right to know.

Heck, I knew the McLaren group was going to buy the pg hotel even before it was announced because I have friends in the real estate business.

The people in these lofty positions of influence, whether they are at cit hall, the provincial government or the private sector, are all intertwined and share information amoungst each other.

But its our dollars that inevitably pay for it.