Good luck trying to pull the rabbit out of the hat...This photo-op was nothing but trying to change the channel on the public...lol lol

No one is buying it!

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2010/04/site-c-diversion-pulling-rabbit-out-of.html


The project won`t even have a shovel in the ground for several years....

So why a lear jet and 5 other planes to fly into hudsons Hope for a photo-op...How much did this announcement cost...$250,000

So much for restraint!

A lot of work is already underway but more important is the message that site c- is moving forward.

We don't need more dams ruining the environment.

OK, what is the alternative to supplying more electricity to the Province.
- atomic
- coal
- ???

Nuclear, solar, wind, run of the river hydro.

How many permanent jobs are there at the Peace Canyon dam??

Welllllllll ....... now isn't this interesting. No First Nations talkin' here. Shoe's on the other foot now.

How objective can we be on this.

For instance, exactly how productive is this land that will be flooded? Let us compare it to fruit and vegetable growing country. I mean, why are we bringing produce from the lower mainland, Washington and California if we could be growing it in the Peace?

How much ethanol will the land that will be covered in water produce, for instance? What is the energy value of that compared to the energy value of the head of water?

As always, an emotional issue rather than a rational issue.

How much extra will we be paying for everything when this project starts dumping dollars into the economy, yet will 'sell' nothing to the public for the entire construction period? All that new money will be absorbed in the prices of goods and services for sale over that period, raising them substantially.

But, just as Gus said, it's always an emotional issue (when it comes to "jobs"), rather than a rational one, (that would look at what the "incomes" from jobs are, or will still be, able to 'buy'.)

You'd think after the previous experience with 'inflation' back in the late '60's and early '70's ~ again as a result of mega-projects like this one ~ an experience that brought an end to our most successful government when it tried to keep a lid on 'wages' in the face of 'prices' of necessary consumables that were already becoming unaffordable ~ governments would have learned something.

Like how to do a mega-project WITHOUT inducing 'inflation'.

I lived through the construction of the St. Lawrence Seaway in the mid to late 1950s. My parents took me from Ottawa about twice a year for a day trip to watch the new towns being constructed, the move, the old structures being demolished and the water rising as the seaway filled to its new banks. All I remember was excitement about the new development.

Doing some research now, it flooded 16,000 hectares of farmland and relocated 6,500 people in 6 villages and 2 towns.

Site C is reported in a 2002 study by Lions Gate Consulting to flood 4,600 hectares of land as well as flood, or affect through a rising water table, 63 parcels of residential land.

Maybe we should think about it this way. Several thousand years ago, as the ice cap was still large than now and glaciers were receding the level of the water was much higher than and the water flow much greater.

All we are doing is bringing the land and the water back to the relationship it once had.

NIMBY?????

http://wildernesscommittee.org/news/peace_river_power_play_over_potential_site_c_dam

BTW .... I noticed a real change in the weather following that Seaway completion. It was the real reason for the start of Ottawa Valley warming that continues to this day. :-0

"sacrifice 20% of B.C.�s top agricultural land" ...that is the biggest crock I've ever heard. (Maybe north of the Peace River) Is it that necessary to fudge the facts to make your point? No credibility there.

As usual big announcement about producing power, the number of homes that it could (COULD) service, shortage of power etc; etc; etc.

This is pure BS. Why are we short of power. Is it because we sell most of what we produce to the good old USA for Air Conditioning, etc;?? If thats so, then that is a pretty stupid reason to flood the country side.

Take a few moments and reflect on the industry closures in the North Central Interior in the past 15 years starting with Pr Rupert, and moving East to Mcbride.

1. Watson Island Pulp Mill
2. Fisheries at Pt Edward etc;\
3. Eurocan Pulp and Paper Kitimat.
4. One or two pot lines at Alcan shut down that allowed Alcan to lay off people and sell power to Hydro.
5. Sawmills in Terrace
6. Sawmill in Kitwanga
7. Sawmill in FT St James
9. Netherlands Overseas Mills
10. Prince George Creosote
11. Woodland Windows (Small Mill on Hiway 16)
12 Another small mill near Carrier Lumber
13 Winton Global Planer
14 Winton Global sawmill at Bear Lake
15 Paper Mill in MacKenzie
16 2 Sawmills in MacKenzie
17 Upper Fraser Sawmills (Upper Fraser)
18 Zeidler Plywood in Mcbride
19 North Central Plywood Prnce George.
20 Bell Copper Mine in Granisle
21 Granisle Copper Mine in Granisle

These are just some of the industry that have shut down in the last 15 years.

So the question is

A. Where the hell did all the power that these companies were using go???

B. What power shortage? Only a fool would beleive that BC has a power shortage. What we have is an insatiable appetite for American dollars.

The sooner Campbell and his cronies get their butts kicked the hell out of Government the better.

Maybe all the mills listed above did give some power back to the grid, but in the past ten years other industries have been growing exponentially like oil,gas and mining. All these industries are true energy pigs. Not to mention the sprawling populations in the Okanagan and lower mainland. To simply think the forest industry is responsible for the majoirty of energy consumptions is unrealistic

Well the population of BC is currently about 4.5 million people and back in 1994 it was roughly 3.6 million people. One would think that the increasing population would increase power demands.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that the average amount of power being consumed by a household in 2009 is quite a bit more than in 1994. Homes these days have multiple computers, plasma TV's, home theatre systems, a bevy of appliances all over the place, etc. Also, homes are bigger on average. That means more lights left on when they aren't needed, more rooms to fill with appliances, more space for things like treadmills, entertainment rooms, etc.

We are a consuming society and our level of consumption is increasing every year. Combine that with a growing population and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that our need for power is also increasing.

Perhaps the best thing we could do would be to build no new power supplying facilities and simply jack the price of hydro up by a fairly considerable amount. Maybe that would force people to stop wasting it so much and then perhaps the demand would be more in line with what we can already produce without building new dams . . .

Obviously people refuse to beleive that we do not have a power shortage. The power used by the shut down pulp mills alone would provide more than enough to supply the increase in population and the little bit needed for some increases in home consumption.

I only mentioned the industries in North Central BC that shut down. Im sure there are more. Dont forget that we ;produce power in Williams Lake and a lot of other places in BC. Canfor Pr George Pulp Mill and Intercon Pulp Mill and Northwood Pulp Mill, and Port Mellon Pulp and Paper mills have all installed co-generation plants and produce a lot of their own electricity.

I doubt if anyone could make a compelling argument showing that BC acutally has a power shortage. What we have is a power shortage after we fulfill our commitments to the good old USA.

Im sure that Hydro, looks at all the power it needs to supply, that is. Export and domestic, and then looks at what is available and then forcasts what is needed in the future, and then comes up with the shortage.

We could of course sell less to the US and fulfill our own domestic needs, however this would cost us money, so instead we will flood the Country. Our Provincial Goverment is no better, and could very well be worse than our worst polluters.

Hopefully the people in the Peace River will put the run on them.

"I only mentioned the industries in North Central BC that shut down"

What about the industries and commercial users that have started up in the last 15 years?

I wonder why there was no mention of this when they announced a while back that we are going to get whacked with 33% hydro increase over the next 4 years?
B.C.Hydro is obviously going to be scrambling for a ton of cash,but of course,that has nothing to do with Site C and a 33% increase for residential consumers...or does it?
Did we just get bullsh**ted again?

where do the other political parties stand on this issue?

what are there solutions to the problems the current government forecasts?

Are the current government forecasts different if we had another party in power, or would they remain the same?

to bad nice country up there i hope the people fight this right to the end thats one of the nicest places in b.c lots of animals rolling hiles a beutiful place to destroy whats next they should take an ugly dirty place like prince george instead what a a shame sad

Okay, I'll bite. We should not sell electricity to the USA.

Following that argument, why should we sell natural gas to the USA?

How about oil? Canada is the biggest single supplier of oil to the USA.

How about lumber? We are the biggest single supplier of lumber to the USA.

How about pulp? Ditto with that.

Potash? We are the largest potash exporter in the world. We account for over 40% of the world trade. Guess which country gets the most of our potash.

Why don't we simply stop exporting all those primary products and move ourselves back to a 50 cent dollar?

Little by little we have to diversify. At the same time, however, we must also share our natural resources with the rest of the world at fair market value or else build up our armed forces to be able to defend them.

When we get a chance to sell something that is relatively sustainable with relatively little negative environmental and social consequences, I think we ought to cash in on it.

"The Site “C” dam would produce enough power to supply about 460 thousand homes."

...pray tell...we are expecting an influx of 460,000 families/individuals to set up shop in BC?

That windfarm off the Charlottes will be producing a lot of power too. Where is it going? Shareholders, that's where.

After we go into debt, plus the interest, the taxpayer will be handing over more of OUR resources to the banking cartel. We do not require this extra power. Check out the research for yourself. Not the govt propaganda sites. Actual hard core data. Current usage in BC; Number of homes; Current annual wattage produced; The legislation regarding BC Hydro and its shareholders. (The CORPORATION of BC Hydro OWNS any and all power projects involved in a P3 agreement.)
Our environment is hurting. You can't grow your own food anymore. Invasive and alien species are taking over causing an imbalance in our ecosystem and man/govt just plods along for the almighty dollar.

You and I depend on our ecosystem for survival. Once that goes, we go. Period.

Here is a link to an article on Opinion 250 about approved wind turbine projects north of the Rockies.

http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/15748

It says that the 5 projects are estimated to cost $800 million. The total output is 293mW. That makes it cost about $2.75million per mW.

The site C cost is projected to be $6 billion. The total design output is 900mW. That makes the cost about $6.66 million per mW, almost 3 times the cost of turbines.

Using 5mW wind turbines, it would take 180 turbines to provide the 900mW capacity.

Does someone on here know enough about this topic to let us know whether these calculations are reasonable for the installation? How much, if anything, do we have to increase the capacity of wind turbines in order to give us similar assurance as hydro power does of uninterrupted service?

I must be wrong. If I am not that far off the mark, why do we want to build the dam instead of installing wind farms?

If the reason for building the dam is to sell much or most of it to the USA, and if the wind turbines are cheaper, then why does the USA not simply increase its own windfarms closer to the demand?

Does anyone know if this is explained somewhere in layman's terms?

BTW, is the Ministry of Agriculture responsible for the oversight and regulation of wind farms? :-)

Is the BC Legislature a prime site to establish a wind farm?

Gus. Dont get carried away. I never said we shouldnt export anything to the USA that would be foolish (as you shud know) What I said was **There is no shortage of power in BC** when you take out the amount of power being exported.

So in essence we are producing more power, for export to produce more revenue for Government. We use the excuse that there is a power shortage to get public support for the project.

So lets export less, and save our farm lands. Is that to much to ask??? Let the Americans build their own windfarms, and whatever else they need to supplement their power needs.

I am not aware of very many major companies that have come on line in BC in the last 15 years that would be a huge consumer of electricity. Maybe someone can give us a list. In any event it certainly woulndt come close to off setting the amount of surplus power that became availablel because of shut downs, and co-generation, run of the river projects, etc;etc; etc;.

"So in essence we are producing more power, for export to produce more revenue for Government."

Sounds good to me. Better than tax increases. Oops, I forgot about the HST.

I wonder if the WAC Bennett dam would have been protested like this if it were being constructed today? Probably. There's a segment of the population that believes nothing should change, ever. Good luck with that philosophy.

Wind Turbines are in the same Class as Sail Ships, no wind no Power, I like to keep the Lights on and stay Warm,
I rather see a Surplus then a Shortage of Hydro Power.

Windpower comes in at 20% efficiency. Coal gas nuclear 80%, hydro higher. Site C 900 mw's, equivalent nameplate rating for windpower taking in above 20% total installed nameplate rating for windpower to equal Site C, 4500 mw's. Remember wind is not constant and ever notice at 40 below no wind. On hot days no wind.

Using a 1.5 mw windgenerator for an example the windfarm would cover about 280 thousand acres. Now think of the concrete, steel, roads, transmission lines required. Think of the eyesore wildlife disruption, birds killed.
Windfarms are no magic pill, they come with their own side effects.

Life is grand,over 7 years of employment thousands of jobs for all those that are trying to get into trades,reduced unemployment more tax paying family supporting jobs means more money in Tax's which means more money for education, schools and healthcare.Public sector workers create the dollers that support our basic infrastructure in this Province. The prospect of site C has been on the books for 40 years, now the 2 years of evaluation then with any luck construction.

As usual the government has come up with a extremely expensive project that the citizens of BC get to pay for, enjoy higher taxes because of and will have no benefit to, because the product will be sold to the Americans. When you drive through Hudsons Hope and surrounding area there are signs everwhere asking everyone to say "No to site C", but the government doesn't care what people think, as with the HST the government is going to push it through anyway regardless of the thousands of people who disagree with it. Welcome to communist BC, and the sad thing is the people of BC voted the current government in twice in a row!! Now we get to live with that folly, long after the current government is gone. When they're done raping the land of its resources and handing it over to the states we'll still have the morbidly high tax rate. Welcome to BC where you only need 3 fulltime jobs to live!

Folks pop over to tyee and read this. Edmonton Profits Big from BC Private Power
For trio of independent power plants, net-profit margin is a whopping 26.8 per cent.

Here is were a good chunk of your hydro bill goes.

Hey Seamutt, in the 'if you can't beat them, join them department'
where do I sign, to invest for 26.8% returns? I still think that hydroelectric is the best way to go, the least overall impact on the environment (the impact that flooding large areas of land is serious, and must not be taken lightly) If B.C. needs more power, then hydro is the lesser evil is what I think.
metalman.

Nature is a bitch ....

Wind does not always blow the same amount

The sun does not always shine the same amount

Water does not always flow the same amount.

Actually, tidal flow is the most consistent water power source.

Metalman just join a political party, right now liberals is where the money is at.

Put a wind farm in Victoria. The amount of wind blowing out of some of our polititions asses should be good for a couple of megawatts.

Like it or hate it,there is going to be a war over this!
Problem is, it is waste of time fighting Site C,but it will be a battle anyway.
We will not get a choice, so don't make the mistake of thinking anything the people of B.C. and indeed,the Peace country have anything to say about it.
This is a done deal.
And you know who to thank.

"Welcome to communist BC,..."

What a remark! B.C. is run by a business oriented party (capitalism, I guess it's called) which is considered by the Socialists as too far to the right. How can it be communism at the same time???

I visited a Communist country years ago. It sure didn't look like B.C.! It was like going back 50 years in time! Scary. Gloomy. Impoverished. Hopeless. To buy a lightbulb one had to line up for hours when some were available.

Site C opponents will have to give in for the Common Good.

Hydro power is the cleanest and most reliable. By the time Site C produces its first power it will be just in time, as the demand for power increases every year.

I'm glad there is some long range planning going on.

Ya PrinceGeorge, communist BC was the wrong word to use. "Parliamentary dictatorship" is more fitting.

BC is run by a business oriented party, you're right!
Funny thing is, it was the people that voted the dictator into office not business.
Gov't is supposed to be, for the people by the people. Not for the business by the business.

"Funny thing is, it was the people that voted the dictator into office not business."

The people KNOW that without business activity they won't have too many jobs, so the people are actually quite smart.

By your definition anyone who is voted into a government power position and who makes potentially unpopular decisions is a dictator. One man's dictator can be another man's hero, of course! Remember Glen Clarke? He made many high handed decisions. So, was he a dictator?

Many people thought he was.

Stalin was a dictator, as were Pol Pot, Mussolini, Idi Amin, etc. They all had one thing in common: NO scheduled elections, or elections with only *one party* candidates, once they are in it's impossible to remove them without bloodshed.

Do we have a dictatorship or a dictator in B.C.?

NO. We have recall and we have regularly scheduled elections with multiple parties and candidates, secret ballots, etc.

The citizens of some countries wish they had a system like ours, in fact they are quite envious.

We need a third party alternative, imho. The two traditional parties have far too many skeletons in their closets.

Businesses don't vote. People vote. Some people are business people, some people do not have a business but work either for a business or for the government.

That's a pretty good mix. If everybody worked for the government the government would be so much in control of people's fates that the people would be afraid to vote the present government out of office for fear of losing their jobs.

That phrase that says that *government is for the people by the people* is an idealistic dream which is worthwhile to emulate but in reality looks quite different. As they other saying states: You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Don't worry about it, PrinceGeorge. Many people throw terms like 'dictatorship' and 'communism' around and they have no idea what it really means.

It's about bloody well time we get some major dvlp going in BC!!

Hopefully we get an approval on that prosperity project near Williams Lake!!

We need the jobs.

Site C will not go anywhere. If you are waiting for this project so that you can find a job, then you will have many years of unemployment. You would be far bettr off to go to Alberta, or Sask for work.

BC Hydro's own figures show that there would not be any significant need for more power until 2025, by that time I suspect that we will need less, not more power.

Its time you guys grew up and faced the bloody facts. The Northern Interior is shrinking. The population is declining. There is nothing that will turn this around. Forestry will remain the same, Minining will increase somewhat and thats that. I gave you a list of 20 Major industries that closed in the last 15 years, and nobody blinked a bloody eye. This tells me that you havent got a clue, as to whats actually going on in the Interior.

Farming is a mainstay, and for us to bury our farm land under water is insane.

You would be far better off to ask yourselfs what is going on with Rio Tinto Alcan in Kitimat. Is the new smelter going to for forward. This project was to create 2500 short term jobs. How come we hear nothing since Rio Tinto took over??? Are they going to mothball the project. If they do, then the next step would be to close the smelter and just produce electricity. This would mean a loss of over 1200 jobs.

If your looking for work, then get the Alcan smelter project going, and quit blabbing about site C which even if it went forward wouldnt create any jobs for five or ten years.

Or better still get yourselfs a job at the Airport directing wide body Cargo Jets to parking spots.

Jeeeesh.

Well put Palopu!

For power production we have biogen, Alcan, wind farms, not to mention other technologies that are being sat on such as electromagnetic and Tesla coils;
(I do not see any facts supporting the claim we NEED more power, but I state it to make some of you happy.)

Jobs:
1. Roads. I am certain every single municipal road and provincial road could use a repaving.
2. Bridge replacement/upgrades in required areas.
3. Forest Service roads and campgrounds need upkeep and the identified unsafe ones need widening etc...
4. Social housing...let's get on with it and build them
5. Watershed maintenance and clean up
6. Seedling planting in our forests
7. Fish hatchery expansion and adequate funding
8. Agriculture expansion and training programs
9. Daycare funding
10. Community health funding
11. Frontline emergency funding. Train and adequately fund ALL emergency personnel (Volunteer rescue organizations could use more equipment and funds for training; We also desparately need MORE ambulance attendants)
12. Counsellor training programs for addiction, family, individual etc

These would go a LONG ways to provide jobs and a healthy sustainable community/region in my "expert" opinion. I estimate a cost of $6.5 Billion to implement ALL twelve.(Hey, it's free even. No $100,000 fee for studying the problems and issues! How about that?)

wow lots of opinions here, we will never all agree, but I for one am not prepared to live without power, and the alternative power sources may not be better, ie: coal and nuclear. Now that we have the technology for computers, tv's an all the electronics we enjoy, we cannot go back in time. I don't think there is at this point viable alternatives. I hate to see these changes, but what other choices??

I'm sure glad we have palopu around to lead the ignorant masses to see the 'real truth'.