Another bloody sea of red tape.

And gas prices up too, gotta love it. Taxed and priced to death in B.C.

Evryone needs to go on strike. I am already on strike now and have been for some time now. If a item says MADE IN CHINA simple rule: BOYCOTT. DO NOT BUY. Does not mater if its a toaster or clothing or any item that says that do not buy it. That item was made from slave lobor,not to mention the job no longer here to make the product. Every time you buy something from china you are condoning the situation these corporate pigs have placed you in. The boycott should apply to the rest of this scam these rich elites have imposed on YOU. I am just simply not going to by anything any more other then the basic things. The petition is going along very well IMO and this is just one way to oust campbell and the rest of these corrupt crooks. If we can shut off the money supply to them by just boycotting then maybe some action would result. I do not buy lotto tickets. This is one a the biggest cash cows to them. Can you go a few months without a lotto ticket? After a few weeks you may discover you dont miss it anyways and if you think about your action in that gordo dont get your money if you dont buy them Save your money people. If YOU want to see the end of this regime let start boycotting all these places until they lower the prices. We are being bled out by these crooks and YOU buying from them is only encouraging them to screw YOU more. Lets break all these outfits. Seems ok for them to do it to us. Either do it now or just wait till they break you. We need a million red shirts here. It is workng in Thailand albeit slowly, seems they is starting to feel the pinch now. We can do it here. Especially DO NOT GO TO A & W in PG. These are owned by pat bell the man who just the other day spit in your face and voted to start this HST. He is a traitor and recall will be started in November. Pack your bags pat you only have a few weeks left to destroy BC so keep it up. You is one stand up guy

mattyc... Pat Bell doesn't own A&W, he owns Wendy's.

I agree with your sentiment of trying not to buy Chines products but here lies the rub. You could never afford to buy those products if they were made in North America. Our demand for higher wages and costs of production vs our desire for the lowest price possible simply do not mix. A $20 coffee maker would likely be in the area of $60 if made in Canada.

But that said, maybe we would be less likely to be so easily "disposable" with our stuff if they were more expensive. Something to think about.

Lastly, another way to stay away from the tax grab of the HST.... buy used.

Pylot Project

buy used works, unless your talking about anything which need insurance, we now have to pay HST when we register the item.

True enough... I speaking more in the area of electronics, furniture and the like.

I have some 1975/1976 Eaton's catalogues which show the prices for merchandise at that time.

It's an eye opener since most prices are numerically HIGHER than what is being charged today for a similar item.

For how many hours did the average 1975 wage earner have to work to be able to buy the 55.- pair of shoes from Eaton's in 1975?

Today a comparable pair of shoes costs 55.- or less.

It will be a Chinese import. I haven't been able to find a Made in Canada pair of men's dress shoes and if I could find one it would probably cost 150.- or more.

BTW, the Chinese still have to create jobs for another 300 million people who are presently unemployed or under-employed.

That means more factories to crank out the stuff that the rest of the world is expected to buy.

Boycotts are not going to have the slightest effect.

It's like a mosquito trying to sting an elephant.

"Lastly, another way to stay away from the tax grab of the HST.... buy used."

Well that will save you from paying taxes, it doesn't really have anything to do with the HST. Anything you would buy used that would be HST taxable probably would have been both PST taxable and GST taxable before. The real hit will be services, restaurants, and things like that.

I remember when GST was coming in, restaurants thought the world was ending.

Anybody try to get a seat in a decent restaurant last night in town?

Good restaurants will continue to thrive, poor ones will go the way of Tony Roma and Foodteller.

Stompin Tom, who cares about restaurants? It's the consumer that's been taking a hit since the first day Gordon Campbell took office. If you can't see how he is making BC'ers poor you need to open your eyes.

RUEZ,

if you dont care why the hell did you bring them up?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I brought it up as an example of what will be taxed. In the end I don't care about anything other than what it's going to cost me to live in BC. We know restaurants will survive, it's the consumer that's may not.

So mattyc, So what happens when china stops buying our lumber and copper and iron ore, and all these things.

Unfortunately sticking our hand in the sand and believing that things will get better on it own is pretty childish.

We live in a global world now, we need to trade with the world and get paid for it. We do not need to give it away.

Even though I say all this, I am relatively careful not to buy food products out of china. Thus don't buy stuff from the dollar store, to put in your mouth. The country does not regulate very well, too much greasing going on. its getting pretty tough, because, it will say packaged in Canada. Thus it just means we get to repackage it. It all boils down to the cost. Its sort of going to McDonalds and eating a simple hamburger for 89 cents.
What part of the cow are you eating????

Nice try mattyc. A toaster made in Canada would be at least $100.

People love their Western wages and cheap Chinese-made goods. You're not going to change any of that with a post on a website.

The HST is the Liberals' waterloo. Voters have very long memories when politicians lie about tax increases, bungling healthcare, and education.

Warm up that recall legislation ...

Lots of things happening this week-end in Prince George which would account for the restaurants being busy. Home Show, BC Wildlife, Mayday Bangquet, etc;

You wont have any problem getting a seat in a restaurant from Monday to Friday, or next week-end when dick all is going on.

Lots of restaurants closing down, and more will once this recession settles in, especially with the help they will get from the HST.

Savvvy, voters have long memories. Ha, that is funny.

The HST is a coming, and all will be forgotten. then all those people who signed their names will get audited by the tax department.... you don't think that there are no consenquences did you.

I remember the last guy that pushed the campaign against Paul Ramsey, he was financially ruined with in three years, he could not get a job, and all these things you would think would be your rights.

Then they're going to need an awful lot more auditors, He spoke. Because the names on that Petition just keep growing, and growing , and growing. And we've only just begun.

Ruez - If are you suggesting that the NDP chasing every business out of the province (read; the 90's) was better than you must be independantly wealthy. Either that or you are a teacher or government employee...

ps - thanks for the rant matty - it helps confirms to me that the HST will be ok

Really? The NDP chased every business out of BC? Well Campbell must walk on water then if he was able to bring them all back so quickly. What I do remember is I had a family doctor and we didn't have regulations for everything and anything we wanted to do. Hell you'll need a permit soon if you want to drive anywhere but a paved road. Campbell has given us nothing but fees, taxes, and useless regulation. His carbon tax BS has done zero to reduce C02, zero. Now he claims the HST will create jobs, but before the recession we had a labour shortage. So I think the recession has reduced jobs not having two sales taxes. I can't wait until we embarrass this fool at the polls next election. Stupid arrogant SOB.

It's interesting to me that both Palopu and I have been accused of "fear-mongering" for our opposition to the HST, yet here we have one of the pro-HST crowd trying to intimidate people from signing the Petition by inferring there will be "consequences" for them if they do. If that isn't an attempt at "fear-mongering" I don't know what is.

Ah, the NDP mythology grows more legendary every time a Liberal blogger tells the tale.

It's like Gordo and the HST -- just keep repeating the party line until someone believes it.

Sorry -- in the Best Place on Earth, we're not buying it any more.

The Liberals are floundering. If they don't dump Hansen and Gordon Campbell fast, they're out. Right about now, it'd be great if the real Liberal party would reform under Gordon Wilson ...

He Spoke, Your talking foolish. Who gives a s--t if the Government does an audit on people who signed the petition. Firstly they would not do such a thing,

Secondly if they did, then they can weed through 400,000 signatures

Thirdly. They are a bunch of blowhards, and danny dimwits and who the hell in this Province would be concerned about them.

Fourthly. I and many others have written to these guys and specifically told them what we feel about this tax, and signed our names to the letters. So who gives a S..t what they do. If they were to try anything (and they wont) I doubt if they have the brains to pull it off.

If what they have done in the last few years is any indication of the level of their intelligence, then we have nothing to worry about.

Campbell himself takes the cake. He calls the HST legislation the greatest thing to happen to BC ever. Then he goes to Alberta for a two bit meeting and misses the vote in the Legislature. Think about that for a moment and you will get an insight into how this guys brain works. He misses the vote on the greatest piece of Legislation in BC history.

What a bloody crock.

Oh Palopu, i'd be careful, big brother is watching you. your gonna get audited.

The NDP was never a business friendly government, though they did improve as time progressed.

Dave Barrett was my choice for the worst Premier we'd ever had until Gordon Campbell came along. And topped the damage it took Barrett three years to do in his first three months.

But getting back to the 1990's, Mike Harcourt was another example the hopelessness of letting any ex-Vancouver Mayor ever become Premier. They just don't savvy anything outside of that City.

Glen Clark wasn't much better, but Dan Miller, if he'd wanted the job, which he didn't, wasn't too bad. And poor old Ujjal, well, by the time he took over it was, "At the end of the day....", as he used to repeatedly say.

If they'd had brains enough to make Corky Evans their leader they might've been out for one term, and came back as a decent government.

I've survived all of them, so far, but under Campbell it's getting worse, not better.

"I remember the last guy that pushed the campaign against Paul Ramsey, he was financially ruined with in three years, he could not get a job, and all these things you would think would be your rights. "

The last recall against Paul Ramsey was by Bob Viergever. He was an independent businessman (Computer King) not an employee for anyone. He financed the recall all by himself with his own money and failed so miserably that he wouldn't even say how many signatures he got. If he was financially ruined it was because he took on more than he could afford, not because of anything the NDP did, because they did not take any action. I know that for an absolute fact. As an independent businessman how could he not get a job?

paranoid fantasies say more about your mind than about the NDP.

tee hee hee

There was a Peter, that first tried it.

Most, if not all, of the 'Recall' campaigns mounted against the NDP MLAs in the 1990's were entirely frivolous.

One of them, against then MLA Evelyn Gillespie from Comox, was undertaken by a guy who wanted her to personally intervene in a child custody battle he was having with his ex-wife. Something she couldn't have done, even if she'd wanted to.

That one grew into an attempt by some Liberals down there to try to re-fight the last election, even though she hadn't given any cause that would warrant her Recall, beyond being an NDPer.

It failed, and many people who were not NDPers, or didn't particularly like that government, were nevertheless disgusted by the pettiness of those Liberals.

It was the same mean-spirited narrow-mindedness that exhibited itself after Campbell first came to office.

Previous Premiers, Socreds and NDP alike, have traditionally extended the "olive branch" to their opponents after the election, and reminded us that even though they beat their opposition, the campaign was behind them, and they intended to do their best as a Government for ALL British Columbians.

Gordon Campbell and his Liberals had an opportunity to do just that, again down on Vancouver Island, with the opening of the new Inland Island Highway.

The construction of this project, desired and discussed for years, was finally initiated by Bill Vander Zalm's Socreds, shortly before he resigned as Premier.

To their credit, it was carried on by all the NDP Premiers that followed, after they first negotiated a unique labour agreement which saw the project completed with no work stoppages throughout its multi-year construction.

It was finished just after Gordon Campbell became Premier. But instead of coming to give credit to all for the work well-done at its opening ceremony, Campbell and his MLAs refused to attend. There was to be no "olive branch" held out, magnaminously, to those "others" over whom he was also now Premier. Petty partisanship at its worst, one of many such similar instances.

Interstingly, the two Recall attempts that were justifiable were both against Liberals. One resulted in the resignation of the MLA before the signatures were verified. I believe the other very nearly succeeded, and was over that MLAs "representation", or lack of, of her constituents wishes.

The first recall was by Harkonnen. At least, he signed the documents as the proponent but it was all set up by some group including the CTF and Focus on the Family if the people on the podium at the public meeting are anything to go by.

Apparently lots of people said they supported him, but they never gave any money to pay the costs. Talk is cheap, I suppose. There was an attempt to have his costs defrayed at taxpayers' expense but nothing came of it. I thought that was rather hypocritical, but still you would have thought that all those people who we were being told were signing the recall would have given a dollar or two, but no.

Why is that the NDPs fault. His own supporters didn't support him. I thought he was rather foolish to do that without making sure he had the wherewithall. Last I heard he was doing house inspections as another independent businessman, wasn't he?

Other people are not responsible for his, and Viergever's poor life decisions.

Im curious, are any of the posters on this site registered canvassers?

I am a registered canvassser and am proud to say that. I have no previous political interest but this thing needs volunteers and I signed up. I been going out in my area and have been getting overwhelming support from the people. Most ask why it took so long to come around or they ask about the process and those kind of questions. I then have to explain what happens if they sign and I only tell them the facts. I ask each person to read the one paragraph speel on our form before they sign. I have not been refused yet by anyone. Most are eager and do it without any persuation at all from me. We have been overwhelmed by the sheer amount of co-operation from the people. I have found that most of them are working class and some seniors mostly living in normal houses just average people. Most are simply outraged at this gordo regime and many have asked how does the recall work. So I find myself having to talk about that as well. Thats the next thing bruce. OOPs tom. Are you that brain dead that you dont see this yourself. Do you think these folks care if you save 12 grand on some machine that we now will pay your tax bill for so the logs can get sent to china???
You are out numbered on this topic tom. Every thing is moving under ground I will be getting all my services that way as will thousands of others. I put up a poster for a friend of mine that does haircuts at home where I work. That might bring her about 50 customers. My manager was more then willing to put it in the office. So just wait tom your business will fail if we the people start up a boycott next of many of these corporations. How bout shaw? Seems ok for them to block the canvassers emails in the early part of the campaign? I have got a couple of people to cancell shaw already. I will do everything I can to promote under ground services. And restaurants? LOL many will soon be broke. Thanks gordo.

mattyc = taxinapothole.

mattyc

would you mind posting that one paragraph letter speel which you have on your form.

mattyc

also, the 1st half of your post was informative, the 2nd half, VERY VERY dissapointing.

As a canvasser you find it to be appropriate to attack and make threats to somebody with a differing opinion? You do realize that is not allowed while canvassing?

You are not worthy of being a canvasser for your cause, you may do more harm to your cause than help if you keep that up.

"Hansen's letter to Elections BC points to alleged violations of the Recall and Initiative Act by the Vander Zalm petition and provincial New Democrats "with respect to provisions that specifically prohibit proliferating false and misleading information."

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100429/bc_hst_vote_100529/20100429/?hub=BritishColumbia

Didnt take long for a complaint to be registered with Elections BC with regards to what a few of us have been asking around here earlier.

It seems to be rampant on this site to attack and post misleading information from supporters, why would one think it to be any different when they are on the streets.

Oh and by the way mattyc, I am glad to see that your an advocate to causing business's to fair, yet your against tax raises.

Have you taken any time to consider how much you tax bill will increase if your naive plan worked?

As you are employed by a business you should take the time to consider how much "underground" services you will be able to afford when your on welfare.

opps, that should say "an advocate to causing business's to fail"

Still waiting for my card, Stompin, whenever ElectionsBC gets off its dead ass and sends it. Apparently they're still backlogged by the number of applications received from people willing to help out. (And we could hardly expect THIS government to do anything to alleviate THAT now, could we?)

Initially, the organisers of the campaign here in my riding were overwhelmed at the number of people willing to volunteer after Vander Zalm came up and spoke. Way, way more than they'd ever expected, and they had to turn many away.

Otherwise, with those numbers, how to go about conducting a proper door-to-door campaign as they'd planned, without needless repetition, would've been a logistical nightmare.

Remember, these people, organisers and would-be canvassers alike, are ALL entirely VOLUNTEERS.

They don't have professional, paid, organisers available on whose expertise they can draw, like the mainstream political Parties do.

And we don't have any 'markers' we can call in, like from those beholden to Campbell for continued "favours" to their well-heeled organisations, or members of same, like the Truck Loggers, or Coastal Forestry Associations , etc. etc., to get their head honchos to add their names in favour of pro-HST spin put out by the Liberals.

Many involved in this effort have never participated in any kind of campaigning before. They're generally not even members of some organised political Party. They're registered voters from all over the political spectrum, and even some who refuse to vote in any general election as long as they don't like any of the choices offered.

Some are, or have been, involved in various Parties, but far more have not. And while their enthusiasm and willingness to "get involved" is invaluable, there are rules that have to be strictly followed if the Petition is to be accepted.

The whole Initiative process was made as purposefully cumbersome and difficult as possible by those who drafted and enacted the Law governing it ~ they didn't design it to succeeed, in other words. But this time it's going to succeeed, in all likelihood, in spite of that. The "People" are behind it. Over 85% of us, and WE WILL BE "LISTENED" TO, and eventually, OBEYED.

In addition to the door-to-door canvassing, many people have since requested of the organisers that they also try to make the Petition available for signing at any businesses willing to offer it.

But those businesses have to have someone on staff registered with ElectionsBC to officially receive signatures. In my own case, and many others, the process to enable that is underway now.

That way it'll be much more convenient for many who want to sign to do so. Rather than take the chance that the door-to-door canvassers might miss them. Or their having to make a special trip somewhere just to sign, and chance that location being closed at that time.

i totally aggree with the China boycot i ahve already stoped shopping at the walmart and check to see where everything comes from especially my food.
I believe if the products and services we consume were made at home there would be enough work for evryone and we already have all the resorces we need to be self sufficient.
now if we could just get rid of the fear mongering, greedy,lieing, cheating,theiving,selfrightious ,
narcissistic bums out of public office maybe we would have a chance at living a better life

socredible,

"And we don't have any 'markers' we can call in, like from those beholden to Campbell for continued "favours" to their well-heeled organisations, or members of same, like the Truck Loggers, or Coastal Forestry Associations , etc. etc., to get their head honchos to add their names in favour of pro-HST spin put out by the Liberals."


Why would you presume the liberals would have to call in these 'markers"? The legislation obviously favors those 'markers' so there should be no doubt that they would support the pro-hst side.

What I can figure out is why you feel its noble for anybody who is anti-hst to stand up for their rights, but you dont feel its noble for anybody in the pro-hst side to stand up for their rights?

Is it that hard for all of you to accept the fact the there is a difference of opinion? Its not right versus wrong, or good versus evil, its anti-hst versus pro-hst.

"Many involved in this effort have never participated in any kind of campaigning before. They're generally not even members of some organised political Party. They're registered voters from all over the political spectrum, and even some who refuse to vote in any general election as long as they don't like any of the choices offered."

This is something that is going to possibly lead to a bigger and bigger problem. The anti-hst side has some very emotionally committed volunteers. It is very important that they understand that they have to keep emotions and their opinions out the the equation when they are going door to door. It is not their job to try and convince people to be anti-hst, it is their job to aquire signatures which support their anti-hst stance. There is a big difference.

Stompin Tom, to mattyc:-"As a canvasser you find it to be appropriate to attack and make threats to somebody with a differing opinion? You do realize that is not allowed while canvassing?"
----------------------------------------
C'mon, Tom. That's utter b.s., and you know it.

None of those canvassing are out to "attack and make threats to somebody with a differing opinion" while they are canvassing. If they do, report them to ElectionsBC, and they won't be canvassing again.

If they come to your house, and you don't want to sign, you just say, "No." And they go. Probably, and hopefully, with an apology for having bothered you. Simple as that.

No one is "threatening" you. Your choice is your choice, and it can be freely made, exactly as it should be, without any intimidation or recrimination whatsoever.

It's the "pro-HST" minority that's been doing virtually ALL the "threatening" of those involved in a legitimate, democratic Initiative.

Trying to scare people that they'll be singled out for a Tax "audit" if the "Authorities" see their name on the Petition. Stuff like that.

We haven't quite descended THAT far into the morass of a totalitarian "dictatorship" yet. But if that's the mindset of some Liberals, it might give us all cause to wonder just what kind of people have we put into office, anyways?

"It's the "pro-HST" minority that's been doing virtually ALL the "threatening" of those involved in a legitimate, democratic Initiative.

Trying to scare people that they'll be singled out for a Tax "audit" if the "Authorities" see their name on the Petition. Stuff like that."


pretty blind eye your turning there socred, mattyc goes off on an tyrant and threatens all business and thats ok, but one other person earlier on mentions audis and the pro-hst has been doing all the threatening?

I think you might want to open your eyes just a bit more, you yourself have dished out threats over the past weeks.

socred

"Stompin Tom, to mattyc:-"As a canvasser you find it to be appropriate to attack and make threats to somebody with a differing opinion? You do realize that is not allowed while canvassing?"
----------------------------------------
C'mon, Tom. That's utter b.s., and you know it. "


actually socred, thats not utter BS, its the truth. mattyc comes on, tells how proud he is in the job he is doing, speaks of some the good work he has done then goes of into a tirade. That kind of action puts a black eye on your whole cause.

as for all the threats, read almost every 2nd post directed towards me, threats are the most common reply.

I suggest the next meeting you go to some more time should be spent on talking to people about self control.

socred,

"We haven't quite descended THAT far into the morass of a totalitarian "dictatorship" yet. But if that's the mindset of some Liberals, it might give us all cause to wonder just what kind of people have we put into office, anyways?"

nothing like the kettle calling the pot black. The person who made the comment about audits in one of these threads, can you prove that person is a Liberal? Are the a card carrying member, do they have connections? Maybe it was Gordon himself?

I can prove the person making threats to me is a canvasser. Take your double standards and put them where the sun doesnt shine.

"So just wait tom your business will fail if we the people start up a boycott"

sounds like a threat to me. And comming from a canvasser, all the worse.

Stompin Tom:-"What I can't figure out is why you feel its noble for anybody who is anti-hst to stand up for their rights, but you dont feel its noble for anybody in the pro-hst side to stand up for their rights?

Is it that hard for all of you to accept the fact the there is a difference of opinion? Its not right versus wrong, or good versus evil, its anti-hst versus pro-hst."
------------------------------------------

That is what it SHOULD be, Stompin. And if the proper process for making the change from PST to HST had been followed, that is what it would be.

But it WASN'T followed.

It was NOT brought before the Legislature of British Columbia, where it could be debated, and other alternatives put forward. Perhaps ones that would've addressed many, or even all, of the concerns people in business currently have with the PST as it is (was). And resulted in a tax that was fairer to all.

Stompin, if you go back and read MY posts, I have not "threatened" anyone.

I have not called for "boycotts" against yours, or anyone else's business because they're openly "pro-HST".

I have spoken out AGAINST any kind of "Red Shirt" campaign along the lines of what's going on in Thailand.

I haven't advocated "riots in the streets", or "civil disobedience".

Nor have I been in favour of a "general strike", when that was suggested by others.

Nor of using "pitchforks" on Gordon Campbell and his cohorts to drive them from office, and out of this Province.

The vehemence of this kind of rhetoric from those who have called for these type of things shows the rising level of frustration with a government that is out of touch with those it governs.

In spite of that, I still believe in the democratic process and the rule of law, and the Petition campaign is within the law. And concentrating on giving as many people who want to sign the ability to sign is what we should all be focussing on, so far as the "anti-HST" side is concerned.

I think there is a considerable difference between people making "heat of the moment" comments on a discussion board like this, and the way those same people would conduct themselves while canvassing. If there is not, and there is impropriety on their part shown when asking for your signature, then by all means they should be reported to ElectionsBC and removed as a registered canvasser.

I HAVE tried, to the obviously limited extent of my ability, to WARN people, like yourself, what I see as the failings and consequences of, and ultimate reasons for, the switch to the HST. To me, it is ironic that those who should be defending the "free-enterprise" system, to whom State "socialism" is an anathema, are the very ones, who, through their support of this Tax, are going to help destroy that system.

"To me, it is ironic that those who should be defending the "free-enterprise" system, to whom State "socialism" is an anathema, are the very ones, who, through their support of this Tax, are going to help destroy that system."

And I cant disagree more.

In free enterprise you have choice. PST gave no choice to business.

HST gives choice. You chose where you want to spend your money.

Stompin Tom:- "Why would you presume the liberals would have to call in these 'markers"? The legislation obviously favors those 'markers' so there should be no doubt that they would support the pro-hst side."
------------------------------------------

Because that's what they're "obviously" doing, Stompin. There's a very discernable difference between "words" that have been written for someone to "say", in a certain recognizable style, by "spin-doctors", and their OWN "words" , uttered by those individuals, themselves, as their true belief.

The Liberals aren't the first to do this. The NDP did it, too, when they were trying to drum up support for the Nishga Treaty. They had the IWA's Jack Munro and enviro-guru David Suzuki's names on obviously well-scripted "opinion pieces".

Interestingly, during that whole process, (and I wasn't particularly in favour of that Treaty, or the Treaty process in general), the best argument I saw written in favour of it came from Glen Clark himself. In his own words.

If he'd popularised the points he made there, much of the opposition to that deal would've been greatly diminished. It was the kind of stuff he could've "gone to the people" on in a general election, and, in all likelihood, won.

But then that issue WAS brought before the BC Legislature, properly, for debate and amendments (even if the NDP did use 'closure' to force it through), and Glen Clark COULD HAVE "gone to the people" on it, if he felt his authority to govern was in question ~ he didn't have a "Fixed Election Date" law he could hide behind like gutless Gordo does.

I'd like to see Gordo put his case for the HST before the people, in his own words, and be willing to stake its supposed great necessity and much promoted advantages for business in a general election on that issue. To seek a mandate that would decide whether we want it, and him, based on that case. That's the way our system is supposed to work. When it's perverted and prevented from properly working, the rule of law starts to break down. And I don't believe any of us really want the alternative to that.

We didn't get a choice on whether or not we got the HST, Tom.
The dictators who supposedly run this province simply said you are getting it, (after lying about it) and rammed it up our butts.
And that is what people are so angry about,as much as they are about the tax itself.
My local MLA was told in no uncertian terms that his constituents did NOT want it and that he should vote against it.
He chose not to do that...huge mistake on his part.
Instead,he re-inserted his nose in Campbell's butt and ignored the people who voted for him.
He committed political suicide,and so did the entire Liberal party.
Watch and see.

Looks like tom needs to learn to read properly. Nowhere in my post is there any indication of threat other then to these corporations. You better consider the possiblity of it coming to pass. Seems you do not realize how angry THE PEOPLE are this time. You do a terrible spin job on my previous post. Do you think I care enough to bully my fellow citizens. You is one dumb dumb boy I am aware that this is no place for name calling but tom that one desrerves a little name call. Every single house I have been to has been eager to sign the petition. It is required of the person to read the speel first then make a choice to sign or not. I dont have to threaten someone what kind of no mind are you????? If that was being inflicted on the people do you not think this would have been reported to Elections BC? As far as your other spin about making business fail? Just like this petition people have a choice to go to you or not. We THE PEOPLE indeed have the means and the anger now to do that. How about poster campaigns?
After your HST bankrupts everyone then what tom???? huh the people wont have no money left to give it to businesses. Just like the haircuts tom the underground economy is going to boom. And I WILL do everything in my power to persuade people to do there business for cash. Whether a haircut or a new roof on the house this is going to happen. The PEOPLE are angry. Stop spinning my story tom. I will only post more and you & I know again you is outnumbered haha. More agree with matty.

I'm still waiting for the pro HST side to state any real facts telling us how the HST will be good for me, my family and my neightbours.

All I hear so far is a bunch of childish bickering being instigated from the pro side.

mattyc

and they allow you on the streets?

Its no wonder Elections BC are receiving reports of "violations of the Recall and Initiative Act by the Vander Zalm petition"

really, you should stop now, your really making your campaign look bad, real bad.

Yeah, hopefully mattyc (taxi) isn't representative of most anti-HST'ers. They will get into trouble if they are.

Dragon: "All I hear so far is a bunch of childish bickering being instigated from the pro side."

All I see is bullying, intimidation and fear mongering from the anti-HST people on this site.

Dragonmaster:-"I'm still waiting for the pro HST side to state any real facts telling us how the HST will be good for me, my family and my neightbours."
-----------------------------------------


Here's an example of what you'll likely hear in the coming weeks, Dragonmaster. It's from Rick Jeffery of Vancouver, the President and CEO of the Coast Forest Products Association, an organisation whose members are highly dependent on continued access to public timber.

"News this month has teetered between the rising Canadian dollar and a grassroots campaign launched against the provincial government's proposed HST.

"While not obvious, these two issues are inextricably linked and directly affect the coastal forest industry and its workers.

"Each one-cent movement of the Canadian dollar means a loss in revenue of $ 90 million for the BC forest sector. Some economists predict the Canadian dollar will trade as high as $1.20 US, causing even more hardship to woods products manufacturters and exporters.

"Ninety per cent of forest products are sold in US dollars. The fast pace in which the Canadian dollar has gained strength presents a serious challenge to the industry especially in our high-value markets, which are disproportionately impacted by the rising dollar.

"As the Conference Board of Canada recently reported, Canadian business have no option but to boost productivity through investment in equipment and machinery in response to the rising Canadian dollar. This is where the HST comes into play.

"The coastal forest industry views the HST through a competitive lens. As a major industry, the coastal forest sector provides 12,000 jobs for communities up and down the coast and is a key driver of the provincial economy. With the introduction of the HST, BC's resource and manufacturing sectors are expected to benefit signifigantly, the forest sector alone paying $ 140 million less in investment killing taxes.

"In addition, the removal of the PST makes the playing field more level with competitors around the world, not subject to this taxation. The HST will result in BC's taxes on business investment being lower. This means coastal communities will be an attractive place for investment, which in turn creates long-term, stable and well-paying jobs.

"And while many negative things are said about the HST, evidence in jurisdictions around the world that have switched to consumption taxes shows overall prices paid by consumers have gone down over time. This is because savinbgs companies realise down through the supply chain when equipment and supplies are purchased and passed on to consumers in the end."

~ (Ha, ha, ha, ha, hee, hee, ~ pardon me, Dragonmaster, I'm having a hard time keeping a straight face as I type this kind of Liberal bullshit!)

"Looking forward, the coastal forest industry isn't expected to begin recovery til next year so we are definitely not out of the woods yet. The HST is critical for the future of our industry, communities, and workers."

~ And there you have it.

I'd just love to take Mr. Jeffery's comments apart one paragraph at a time, but that would be like cruelty to animals, "dogs", that is. Still on these boards, Dave? Or has Gordo got you too busy backing up the wavering stance of the runt of his litter, rookie MLA Don McRae?

Poor Don McRae, for those of you who don't know, or have never even heard of him, he's the Liberal who was recently elected MLA by a very narrow margin in a by-election down in the Comox Valley riding after long-time Cabinet Minister Stan Hagen croaked.

Apparently a former popular high-school teacher, with some family connections to the "high and the mighty" in municipal politics down there, he's been under considerable pressure of late to actually DO what he was elected to do ~ REPRESENT his constituents in their near overwhelming opposition to the HST.

So far he hasn't been listening, and Gordo's got the Truck Logger's Association President, an unsuccessful Liberal political hopeful himself, and former Mayor of Gold River, Dave Lewis, to make sure he stays "on side" and hard of hearing.

Mr. PG:-"All I see is bullying, intimidation and fear mongering from the anti-HST people on this site."
------------------------------------------
You need to get your eyes checked.

no socred, you need to get your head out of the sand.

Ya Make a eye doctor appointment mrpg. You dont deserve to be called mister but anyways make one for tom too. You both can go get em checked out then pay your HST for the service. Your spin job on the others posts here in this chat is a joke. You need to enroll in a spin doctor 101 course. You be happy to know HST on that too so you should feel right at home. Try to learn to read properly first, then spelling is important too. I see you not so good there either. Guess Matty hits a nerve right tom? What you gonna do when people do start boycotting these corporations tom? Do you have the ability to answer that straight question with a straight answer? I say no. Your history proves me right. You spin the story and do not answer the question. Thats why you need to take spin doctor 101. Learn to answer whats put to you or just shut up. You say I hurt the cause here?? In most of your posts you try your bully routine. Well hey tom..... NEWSFLASH.... WE THE PEOPLE is angry. 85% in fact and gordos spin aint working either. We will get our petition completed morally and ethically. And we do not have to bully anyone to get them to sign. 100% I got again tonight. I was out for 2 hours canvassing. The gloves are off tom. The peoples very survival depends on this campaign and I intend to work it to the end. November is coming soon and then RECALL starts. I will be on the front lines there too so get used to it. I am a registered voter in BC AND HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY AND DO WHAT I WANT TO MOTIVATE THE PEOPLE TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES. And if boycotts start up you can thank me cause I aint gonna quit till gordo is gone. Oh BTW I aint on or ever was on welfare. So you is WRONG AGAIN tom. The story of your pathetic life.

wow, and you try to take a shot at somebody for spelling?

Boycott corporations? Really, you going to boycott Canfor, West Fraser, Tolko, Endako Mines, Canfor Pulp, Lakelands, Kemess?

Just exactly which corporations you going to boycott in this area that will make a difference to anything? If you havnt noticed the big employers in this area are natural resource based and dont sell squat in the region.

I see your boycott of China has done wonders. Yup, boycott Shaw you got everybody quivering, of course you can boycott Walmart because they sell product from China, that will force you to Zellers, but wait, China as well.

I have to tell you, if your the one who is going to lead the drive to topple business, I dont think Im going to loose any sleep.

One question Matty, how long has it been since you dropped out of high school?

Yes - mattyc is right - WE THE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.
What is another tax good for?
Everybody knows, new taxes are never good. I was reading all the posts today and it seems, that either Mr. PG or St. Tom can explain, why a new tax is good for us.
Just bullying??
And by the way, I never buy Made in China.
It is mostly just junk, things we do not really need, it is waste of money to buy. And it doesn't make the Chinese workers rich, they hardly get nothing. And whoever imports these things, should pay such a high import tax, that it is not worth importing.
We are still able to buy things Made in Canada/USA etc. It is sometimes hard, but we still can buy furniture made here, shoes made here.
Why do we have to waste gas/energy, to transport these things by ship/container over to here, somebody buys it and 3 weeks later it is in the garbage, for it is broken or doesn't work.
Great for the environmet. Wast of energy and our landfil is filled with garbage made somewhere else. And now HST on all this garbage?

Yes - mattyc is right - WE THE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.
What is another tax good for?
Everybody knows, new taxes are never good. I was reading all the posts today and it seems, that either Mr. PG or St. Tom can explain, why a new tax is good for us.
Just bullying??
And by the way, I never buy Made in China.
It is mostly just junk, things we do not really need, it is waste of money to buy. And it doesn't make the Chinese workers rich, they hardly get nothing. And whoever imports these things, should pay such a high import tax, that it is not worth importing.
We are still able to buy things Made in Canada/USA etc. It is sometimes hard, but we still can buy furniture made here, shoes made here.
Why do we have to waste gas/energy, to transport these things by ship/container over to here, somebody buys it and 3 weeks later it is in the garbage, for it is broken or doesn't work.
Great for the environmet. Wast of energy and our landfil is filled with garbage made somewhere else. And now HST on all this garbage?

Yes Tom, Canfor Pulp, great. We have the worst air in BC. But maybe you like the awesome smell here in Prince George.
I know quite a few people, they moved, for they couldn't stand it anly longer.
And why do we sell logs to China? They make furniture, but not for their market, no way, it all comes back to us and you can buy it here and you want to pay us on top HST., while our sawmills are closed?

Just keep making the people madder tom and you will see it happen. I never said I will be leading anything like that but I will certainly volunteer to get people motivated. I see you still never answered the question i asked you so I aint gonna answer you either. You dont got the brains to answer me. You going to under estimate 85% of the people? You are stupid. And dont critize my education. I did not drop out of high school. So WRONG AGAIN tom. Every one of your posts is more funny then the last.

All this bickering makes me wonder what we'll be bickering about a year or so from now after the HST has become a part of our daily lives.

suzir: "And why do we sell logs to China?"

Mostly it's because we don't live in a bubble nor do we have a monopoly on trees.

MrPG - after the HST has become a part of our daily lives.
I hope that will never happen!!
Are we not living in a democracy???
Is the opinion of more then 50% of the population of BC not counting anymore???

MrPG Mostly it's because we don't live in a bubble nor do we have a monopoly on trees.
And our sawmills are closed?
You think, they do better work in china then they do here?
Waht a joke

So we have to sell all our resources to Asia? We do not need jobs here?
....and what is the return?
We are getting flooded with junk of no quality, that goes after a short time into the garbage, after of course we should not forget that, we have paid the HST!!
Poor consumer

Ah, I wasn't going to, but this "spin" is just begging for rebuttal.

From Rick Jeffery's position piece:-

"Each one-cent movement of the Canadian dollar means a loss in revenue of $ 90 million for the BC forest sector. Some economists predict the Canadian dollar will trade as high as $1.20 US, causing even more hardship to woods products manufacturters and exporters."
-----------------------------------------
Notice he does NOT tell us over what time period a one-cent movement in the Canadian dollar causes this $ 90 million loss of revenue. Is it a day, a week, a month, or a year? "Some economists predict...." ALL economists predict. That's ALL they can do. Predict. What do the "other" economists predict? That it'll go back to ninety cents? Or lower? And then what, "Happy days are here again"?

-----------------------------------------
"Ninety per cent of forest products are sold in US dollars."
------------------------------------------
I think what he means to say is that they are "priced" in US dollars. Or maybe he doesn't. It's my understanding that "raw log exports" are purchased in US dollars, and the organisation that Mr. Jeffery heads, represents several coastal companies engaged in log exports.
-----------------------------------------

"The fast pace in which the Canadian dollar has gained strength presents a serious challenge to the industry especially in our high-value markets, which are disproportionately impacted by the rising dollar."
-----------------------------------------
Our "high-value" markets for lumber are disproportionately impacted MORE by "raw log exports". Where foreign log buyers get a discount because of a low Canadian dollar, and those on the milling side are told we're "ineffcient" and "not productive" enough to compete with foreign mills. But when the playing field is levelled, our dollar rises to par, and they don't get a discount on their Canadian log purchases, and the cost of milling in our mills is compared, dollar for dollar, to the cost of milling in their mills, whose mills are the more productive? Already, without having to do any more of what's mentioned next by the Conference Board.
-------------------------------------------

"As the Conference Board of Canada recently reported, Canadian business have no option but to boost productivity through investment in equipment and machinery in response to the rising Canadian dollar. This is where the HST comes into play."

-------------------------------------------
Brilliant. Just WHO is the Conference Board of Canada anyways? I could look it up, but I don't think I really want to know. Would only confirm my worst suspicions, I'm sure.

Now we already have a glut of lumber that's unsaleable anywhere, at the cost of its making, on the markets of the world. But this Conference Board wants us to invest and make a still larger glut, depleting our forest resources faster than we can regrow them, in fewer, larger, mills that are more automated, employing still fewer people than they already do, so we can dump still MORE lumber again onto those same markets. Depressing the price even further, and inviting, in the case of the American and Western European markets, further retaliatory measures to protect their own producers and keep our lumber out. And for what? Who really benefits? They'd better sober up and have another 'conference', I think. There's something very much wrong with this scenario.
----------------------------------------

"The coastal forest industry views the HST through a competitive lens. As a major industry, the coastal forest sector provides 12,000 jobs for communities up and down the coast and is a key driver of the provincial economy. With the introduction of the HST, BC's resource and manufacturing sectors are expected to benefit signifigantly, the forest sector alone paying $ 140 million less in investment killing taxes."
-----------------------------------------
Is this guy for real? Go and look at what's LEFT of the 'major industry' that USED TO BE the provider of 12,000 jobs on the coast. Go to Campbell River, or Courtenay, or Ladysmith, or Nanaimo, Gold River, Tahsis, Youbou, or Port Alberni. The mills are gone. Or shut. Or down to a skeleton crew running one shift.

A few years ago they were telling us there had to be a "wash out" of sawmills on the Coast. We were overbuilt. Not enough timber to keep 'em all going. Now there's been that washout. But they're now telling us that we can build some new 'supermills', all thanks to the tax savings from the HST, that'll cut more in one plant than the closed ones cut in three, or four, or five plants combined. And there's going to be enough timber?

They'll scalp the country bare. And it'll take a lot more country to keep a new small log supermill going, even for the brief time it'll exist, than it ever took to keep any of the bigger log plants operating.

But Rick Jeffery, and Dave Lewis, and that temporarally dried out piss-tank we have for a Premier won't care. They'll all be sloshing themselves with mai-tais on Maui, happily retired from their life of 'labour' (in their minds, anyways, they DO labour), to a permanent life of leisure. And what will WE be left with? A HST rate that'll probably be twice what it is now, and still inadequate to repair the damage they've caused.
-----------------------------------------

"In addition, the removal of the PST makes the playing field more level with competitors around the world, not subject to this taxation. The HST will result in BC's taxes on business investment being lower. This means coastal communities will be an attractive place for investment, which in turn creates long-term, stable and well-paying jobs."
-----------------------------------------
They'll have to be very well paying. To be able to pay all the taxes that it'll take just to keep all those that have been displaced and unemployed. Or is the idea to re-create the scenario now unfolding at Canfor Quesnel, where it's down to 'dog' eat 'dog', for the available jobs?
----------------------------------------

"And while many negative things are said about the HST, evidence in jurisdictions around the world that have switched to consumption taxes shows overall prices paid by consumers have gone down over time
This is because savings companies realise down through the supply chain when equipment and supplies are purchased and passed on to consumers in the end."
----------------------------------------
Which "end"?

By late July, when people have had enough time to see what the HST costing them,there will be line ups to sign the petition!
Once it fully kicks in we will all begin to understand just how badly we have been lied to by the Campbell government.
And then Gordon Campbell is going to have a really BIG problem!

"So we have to sell all our resources to Asia? We do not need jobs here?
....and what is the return?
We are getting flooded with junk of no quality, that goes after a short time into the garbage, after of course we should not forget that, we have paid the HST!!
Poor consumer"

We have to sell our trees to someone. Forestry is a big factor in the BC economy and employs a lot of people. The US isn't buying our wood (to the same extent they were) so we have to look elsewhere. If Asia didn't buy from us, they would buy from somebody else. Protectionism doesn't work.

AndyFreeze,

you might want to look over your petition just a tad bit closer.

"Protectionism" DOES work, Mr. PG. It's a stopgap measure, and shouldn't be necessary if international "trade" was really TRADE. But it is NOT. It's a lopsided exchange of our 'real wealth' for "money". Because there isn't enough "money" distributed in the course of production to BUY that all that production at the "costs" of its making.

Proper internatioanl 'trade' is an exchange of the 'relative surpluses' of this country for alternate 'relative suppluses' of some other country, for the purposes of diversifying consumption in both. Which is the ONLY sensible reason for carrying on any kind of "trade" internationally. That's NOT what we have now. Instead, it's a trade of "real wealth", the resources of this country, for international "credit". To make up the deficiency in distributed incomes.

The same thing could be done by the Bank of Canada cutting a cheque to every retailer as a "rebate" for lowering his prices by the same percentage that overall national production exceeds overall national consumption in any chosen fiscal period.

When we 'export' MORE in "real wealth" than we import back in alternate "real wealth", which this HST is designed to make us do, we're really getting POORER as a country, not richer.

"Protectionism" DOES work, Mr. PG."

I disagree. Remember, it can be a two way street. Letting our trees rot in the forest benefits nobody, especially those who make their livings in forestry. If there was nobody to sell our trees to, PG (and the surrounding communities) would dry up pretty quickly.

Mr. PG, do you remember back to the early years when Bill Bennett was our Premier and he said we were going to stake our future employment, which was already starting to wane in our 'traditional' industries through increasing labour displacement due to automation and mechanisation, on "high-tech, value-added" manufacturing?

We were going to compete, in the markets of the world, by making new and innovative products that everyone would be anxious to buy if only we could convince them to open their markets to our wares. Why we'd even show them the way, by opening ours. What happened? Where are all these promised "jobs" in these new "high-tech, value-added" plants, Mr. PG? They never materialised. And they never will, unless we move to make some long over-due "financial" changes. Ones completely opposite to imposing more taxes or shifting around existing ones.

It's time to face some cold hard facts. Ones we should've faced long ago. The kind of financial "globalism" we've embarked on is only impoverishing us as 'importers' and enslaving us as 'exporters'. Protectionism would be the first step that might give us a chance to reverse that.

"It's time to face some cold hard facts. Ones we should've faced long ago. The kind of financial "globalism" we've embarked on is only impoverishing us as 'importers' and enslaving us as 'exporters'. Protectionism would be the first step that might give us a chance to reverse that. "

Using protectionism would only give other countries the opportunity to fill the gap that we left behind.

As I've said, many times, we are competing globally whether we like it or not. Shutting the borders will only hurt us. Your vision for the world's economy is a fantasy. Most of us have to live in the real world.