Thanks for that story Eagleone. The one about how the people is being screwed by these rich scum. Very refreshing to see some truth printed for a change. That story sooooo perfectly describe gordo and these corporate pigs that is about to bankrupt many citizens of BC. I know one thing tho. They wont be getting much out of me, other then a new ripoff in my phone and hydro bill because I simply wont buy anything much anymore. Many things can be had used or bought privately with NO TAX. I will never eat in a restaurant in BC again. I will do everyhing I can to support the underground economy. And I did vote. I voted for NDP in hopes of ridding BC of campbell. The best thing to do now is BOYCOTT. And get what you need done UNDER THE TABLE. Thats how I will fight back. Please post more of these stories about these corporate pigs. I LOVED IT.

It's good to see the BC Conservative Party is undergoing a revival. I personally think it is time to kiss both of the mainstream parties in BC, (the Liberals and the NDP) goodbye. There is tremendous change coming for all of us as a result of our aging baby boom population, and (a far bigger problem) our world wide debt crisis. Our present policy of borrowing from the future in order to try and preserve an unsustainable past may be a good political strategy in order to win elections, but it is only adding to our problems. I also think since the average person spends approximately 50% of their income on some form of a tax, fee or levy, "that is enough taxes already".

The "wealth" our society has enjoyed over the last several decades has been an illusion which has been fueled by more and debt being pumped into our economy, and all you have to do is look at what is happening (financially speaking) all over the world lately and you can plainly see the great party is over, and the great hangover is starting. (The word's major economies have become saturated with debt).
It is time to start living within our means folks.

The following is taken from a news story which was posted a few days ago on the CBC News web site:

Former federal political heavyweight Randy White has signed on to help the revival of B.C.'s beleaguered Conservative Party.
The party has been without a leader since Wilf Hanni stepped down after the party failed to win a single seat in the May 2009 provincial election.

But recent polls have shown support for the party is rising as rural conservatives become disenchanted with the governing B.C. Liberals, particularly in the Fraser Valley east of Vancouver and the southern Interior.

White, a former MP and House leader in the House of Commons, will chair the party's tactical advisory group.

He was first elected to the House of Commons in 1993 as the Reform Party of Canada member for Fraser Valley West and sat in the House until 2005.

According to a statement posted on the B.C. Conservative Party website, White joined the party "because I can no longer support the B.C. Liberals and I want to help end the tax-and-spend mentality that exists with both the Liberals and NDP parties in this province.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/04/23/bc-conservative-party-randy-white.html

A few questions for all of you.

1st, what do you personally expect from this petition?

2nd, what are the legal rights of this petition?

3rd, what is the official title of the exercise?

If this is indeed just a "petition" then you are signing a piece of paper saying you oppose the tax. Nothing more, nothing less.

What is the end result of this, not what you hope will happen, but what legally will happen when this "petition" is presented to legislature?

The reason I ask this in because of simple on the street conversations with people in the area, some are of the feeling that if the required and confirmed 10% sign the tax will be repealed, that the government wont have a choice.

As I understand this, its nothing more than a petition which says a large percentage of the voting public is unhappy with the legislation and they would like the current government to consider repealing it. Maybe some political clout with threats towards the next election, but no actual legal grounds to stand on?

One more question, what is the opinion of the common man with regards to the NDP on this subject? I for one am amazed at how quiet they have been, do they still have a leader? Members?

Maybe the provincial NDP have wisely decided not to fight something that they have no chance of winning.
HST is coming, as a consumer, I don't like it, but as abusinessman, I think it is a boon.
metalman.

The way I understand it, this would be the timetable.

May 1st - businesses start charging HST on goods or services that will be delivered after July 1st

July 1st - HST starts getting charged at all stores & restaurants.

July 5th - Petition is handed into the Chief Electoral Officer.

Sometime passes while they verify all the signatures and that they were registered to vote etc. (90-180 days).

A HST Repeal Bill would then be put before Legislature (which the Liberals hold a majority), to see if they would like to hold a Referendum.

Now in the unlikely event that the liberals say hey why not let the people have a say, sometime in late 2011 early 2012 we will have a non-binding referendum, for it to succeed, 50% of registered voters, would have to run down to the voting areas and vote against the HST. Considering I can't remember when the last time 50% of people actually made it down to the polls to vote for who will lead them, this is a very slim chance.

If however it does gain 50%, then the government would then look a whether they want to give back the 1.6 Billion dollars the feds gave us, as well as whatever penalties might be dished out for repealing the HST before the 5 year term of the deal made with the feds was.

Now by this time given the lash back against the liberals, we most likely would have gone to the polls and elected the NDP, so they will get to feel the wrath of either ignoring the referendum, or paying billions to the feds, and having to bring back the PST & GST as opposed to the HST.

Vdesign,

Very interesting post, possibly the best and most informative I have read since this whole situation has taken place.

gst pst now hst then it will lst,how is anybody going to make a living?

Vdesign,

since is seems your well versed on this subject maybe you can answer another question, is HST not Federal law, there for the Petition should actually be to reinstate the PST and hope the Feds will return to GST?

HST won't be the great boon some people in business seem to think it will be, Metalman. If you have employees, get set for a push for higher wages, which will bump up your costs of doing business, and require you to retain a larger part of your earnings as 'working capital'. Or seek additional financing.

There is simply no way another 7% tax can be added on to that broad a range of products and services not now subject to that tax without there also being upward pressure on wages.

Either directly, where that is possible, or indirectly through a fall-off in worker productivity. People will not consciously work the same as they have been doing if they see it's clearly costing them another 7% to live, yet their employer is expecting they'll do the same, or more, work for him for what is then, effectively, a cut in pay.

From what I've seen, the NDP supporters are working right alongside other people from right across the whole political spectrum to ensure the success of the Petition.

Many of them are vigorous as volunteer canvassers, or organizers. And their help is much appreciated by all of us opposed to this tax, and determined to defeat it. As is the support and assistance of people who are involved in other parties, BC Conservatives, BC Refederation, disgusted Liberals, etc., and those of us who have no affiliation with any Party, who have all united in this common cause.

Keep at it folks, the other side is stareting to get concerned. They're putting up a brave front and trying to divide us, but they're just not going to succeed. Remember the words of Gandhi, that shrivelled up little Indian who stayed the course, and with the determination of his supporters also did what many said "couldn't be done" when they toppled the mighty British Raj, "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win."

This government is going to be recalled as soon as it is possible. The Initiative (not petition) is just the beginning. The Initiative IS a legal Elections BC document. The same rules apply as when you vote. You have to be a registered voter and you can only sign once. We must all remember the most important thing and that is the government official’s work for the people and they ARE to represent the people who pay their wages. This government is out of control with their arrogant disregard for the wishes of over 80% of the people. People do not like to be duped and Mr Campbell did just that when he PROMISSED at election time that he would not bring in the HST. He slapped the people in the face and is still treating us like we do not matter. How do we even begin to listen to someone who has gotten an impaired, has a court case about the BC rail and is willing to hand over the provincial sales tax money to the federal government? When has Ottawa ever looked after the west? Do you actually believe we will get our share back? Come on! What about the fact that this HST was to start in JULY and suddenly is being pushed through this Friday? This government is loyal to big business while we pay their wages. There is something very wrong with that picture and we look like fools. What about the fact that we still do not know exactly what the Olympics cost us? What about our Democracy?

There is another thing I must say. I was watching council last night on TV and the questioned was posed about more testing for our air by one of the council members. A short answer was given and they moved on. I think we better be very worried that this issue has become so quite. Swept under the carpet?

socredible,

keep up with the fear mongering, but dont let facts get in the way of your rants.

Let me ask you this, if you collect HST on the items you sell, and you pay HST on items you aquire for the intersted of your business, why do you need to increase your working capital?

The HST you aquire goes to offset the HST you pay, and if your business turns any profit at all you will bring in more HST than you spend, covering off the cashflow and then some. If your aquasitions are costing you 100% of the HST your customers pay, it wont matter, you will soon be out of business.

After 3 months you submit your HST, the vast majority have to pay HST to the government, therefor they actually have a positive cash flow from it rather than a negative as you portray.

If you purchase a raw product, then go into some level of remanufacturing, your creating asset value, and that asset value creates higher revenue when selling your product as compared to the cost of your product.

Just like the rest of your fear mongering, you either are blatantly lying, or you have no idea how to run your business.

Stompin, Saskatchewan went the HST route, then after having it, wisely changed its mind, and went back to PST.

The deal made between the Federal and Provincial Ministries of Finance was NOT approved by the BC Legislature.

The Federal legislation enabling the HST is quite likely not even valid "Constitutionally".

It surrenders an area of Provincial sovereingty which cannot be done legally in BC without a Referendum.

It is only an 'administrative' change, much the same as having the RCMP police the Province instead of the BC Provincial Police, who used to. And, just like that, we can certainly end it if and when we want to.

It is interesting to note that Carol Taylor the former finance minister of the liberals has come out against the HST. She said the liberals were deceitful about the whole business. She also said that the tax would put 1.8 BILLION more on the ordinary tax people of this province. That is not fear mongering; but the truth.

socredible,

the entire East Coast went HST and decided to keep it, does that make them wiser than Saskatchewan or less wise? Its not a matter of wise, its a matter of them deciding what fits their needs better.

"The deal made between the Federal and Provincial Ministries of Finance was NOT approved by the BC Legislature"

Not approves but soon to be, mute point.

"The Federal legislation enabling the HST is quite likely not even valid "Constitutionally". "

Based on what? Your word?

Denaljo,

if you read my comments to socredible, the fear mongering he and palopu are famous for are their "versions" of concepts which are unfounded, untrue or misrepresented.

As for what Mrs Taylor has stated, I have no opinion on that, and she is quite likely correct, nobody has argued that it is not a tax shift.

Thanks for the explanation Vdesign, I was wondering amount the timelines.
Yes unlikely that we would get 50% of eligible voters out to vote on a referendum, but by signing the HSP petition at least I had my say.

I want to hear more from conservative party??? I didn't even know they existed until I saw it on the ballot at the last election. This might an option!

the entire East Coast went HST and decided to keep it, does that make them wiser than Saskatchewan or less wise? Its not a matter of wise, its a matter of them deciding what fits their needs better.

The people there also had no choice in the matter and I have relatives there so I know what I speak of. I was told by one of them if any of your polititions ever say the words HST, RECALL EMEDIATELY or you will be sorry. That does not sound to me like happy little campers.

Sometimes standing up for your principals are every bit as important as the end result,win or lose.
Principals are important when it comes to something like the HST and the manner in which it came about.
Failure to stand up and be counted after the lies and political manipulation we have had heaped on us by this so-called Liberal government, would indeed be a major mistake that we would all regret.
The Campbell government will not allow the HST petition to work as it should, and we understand that very well.
Most of us suspected that all along,and if nothing else ever comes of it,it is at the very least, a major step in the removal of this corrupt band of thieves.
The Liberals are politically dead to the voters of B.C. and they know it.
That in itself makes them very dangerous and we had best be paying attention to that.
Campbell is hearing footsteps coming up behind him and it may very well be someone from within his own party.
We can only hope there are some honest people somewhere on the backbenches who will remember who they work for.
At least we will know we stood up for ourselves and democracy,win or lose.

Ooooooooh! A tax shift - waaaay more palatable now!

stomping tom " the entire east coast went hst yada yada yada". If I remember correctly Newfoundland had a pst at 12%, gst at 7%. The hst was 15%; 4% savings. I believe the other eastern provinces had similar situations. That would make them wiser I suppose. You could check it out rather than continue your blind cheerleading for campbellco.

stomping tom " the entire east coast went hst yada yada yada". If I remember correctly Newfoundland had a pst at 12%, gst at 7%. The hst was 15%; 4% savings. I believe the other eastern provinces had similar situations. That would make them wiser I suppose. You could check it out rather than continue your blind cheerleading for campbellco.

joeboy,

once you figure out how to run a computer on this site you will soon find out that I am not a blind cheerleader, I am somebody who has came out against the grain and stated that I support the change, it is good for small business and especially good for mine.

I have never once argued against your right to sign the petition, and have never tried to persuade anybody private individual to do anything other than what they think is right.

What I have done is every time I read a fear mongering comment which is based on a half truth or a downright lie I point it out. I also take aim at those who try to make it seem they know what is best for small business when in fact they are wrong.

Sign at your will, that is your right.

The one thing socredible brings up that concerns me is the cost of living and the need for increased wages.

Its great to claim that businesses benefit (and in a simple sense looking at the HST aspects only, they will likely benefit)and then from that presumption, stretch that claim to increased employment being generated, BUT can this or will this happen if wage rates have to be increased?

If wage rates do not go up and the cost of living goes up, substantially as it looks, won't consumer spending have to go down dramatically?

The key question to the average wage earner/consumer is; do they have the means to afford their current standard of living with the income which they now generate?
Something must give.

I have arrived at a couple of conclusions in this seismic shift of our tax system.
One is that companies who export their products directly will do much better than those companies (especially labour intensive services)that depend upon BC domestic revenues,especially from soon to be poorer consumers.
With the pressures to increase wages being inevitable, there will also be a labour reduction stratedgy at every company.
This would be either replacing employees with automated equipment OR reductions in value added product streams which typically require higher labour per units produced.

The HST is a value added tax and typically (if not allways)the process of value added means higher costs (more employment,more OUTSOURCED goods and services to produce as well), AND most importantly; "value added" does not mean "profit added" as most people think.
(That is proven by us primarily exporting basic raw materials and importing "value added" finished goods) Fact is we don't do very well competing against most places in the world when high levels of labour are involved with a unit of product, partly because of our wage rates being higher and/or partly because of worker productivity being lower.The HST makes this worse and not better.

To add to that, is that we are going to experience a great increase in energy costs as the HST and carbon tax is added to rapidly inflating fuels prices,heating and electricity..all things which are essential to value added industries.

So this would mean that our existing and more labour intensive value added sector will become even less profitable and less competetive domestically and also to export. So say bye bye to most value added businesses and their higher levels of employment which they had or would generate.

Drastic inflation is coming to our economy from this compounding set of costs with the rebounding from a period of recession.
Our dollar is strong and what used to be attractive to tourists and people buying our products is now about 25% less attractive, PLUS taxes.

The HST and carbon taxes are merely a couple of straws in the overall economic picture but nevertheless likely to be the straws which break OUR (the individual's working joe/jane's) economic back.
If joe or jane can keep the jobs they now have, they will probably need to get another job to qualify to buy a small home and cover their increased living costs. As interest rates rise, the summer vacation will be a barbeque in the backyard while studying for some form of high tech job training. Sharing a hotdog and improving one's education isn't all bad, BUT
Joes and janes everywhere will be very busy and very broke so the frilly stuff like atv dealerships, sporting goods stores, ski hills and restauraunts etc etc will also go broke (which are businesses by the way) and lay off all those (hopefully other) joes and janes.

Get used to throwing away more stuff when it breaks as it will cost more to fix.If you have or had a job fixing stuff? good luck with that well paid career and start hauling more garbage to the landfills.

One aspect that really bothers me (because it is being incestuously created)in the ways our economy is being directed is that while the liberals claim to be aggressively promoting economic development (not telling that it is for big exporting business only, which are mostly publicly and foreign owned generating wealth to them) for the purported purposes of job creation (which will actually be forced to decline)and also green (at any cost to consumers while transferring the consumers wealth to the large corporations profits to privately produce more expensive energy)and justify both the HST and the carbon tax..that in fact only the lowest of possible benefits will flow to the few remaining ordinary people employed, while big simple raw material exporting corporate businesses will have their future be paved with gold.

I am a little concerned about people with small businesses. The Liberal government has never really come out with an exact list of what will be included in the full HST tax. What if people do stop shopping where they can? Or go across the border and/or underground. When you pee off 87% or so of the population something is going to break somewhere. I know my shopping habits ARE GOING TO CHANGE. What bothers me the most is no one seems to care about the elderly who built this province with their hard work and sweat. Maybe the reason this thing is getting so many signatures is the fact that that is how many borderline poor there are that this is freaking out. How every you look at it ...the middle class will be paying more for the every increasing poor. Either way everyone loses in the end except for the large corporations and the rich.

Oh, so sorry, to somehow post twice. Like I'm the 1st to ever do that. Waaaa. Whatever, mr computor expert. Whatever.

Reading your little rant I can see you missed the point I was trying to make. I encourage you to check out the east coast hst situation.

Woodchipper.....Awesome view!

I think the large corporations running this country should pay the high over the top wages and retirements of their government puppets. I have never seen a boss of something have absolutely no say in what happens to their company like the people of BC and THEIR province. Like the above poster said....WE LOOK LIKE FOOLS.

Stompin, I may not know how to run my business, according to you, but I've survived in it for 42 years quite well in my blissful ignorance.

I've never gone broke, or missed a payroll, or had to plead for an extension on any loan re-payments. And I've never underpaid my employees, so I could get 'more' off their sweat. They've all always had a "living wage", without having to go to a Union to get one for them.

I could retire right now, simply by walking away from it, and I don't think I'd have to ever worry for the rest of my alloted time where my next meal is going to come from, or that I'd be threadbare, or out in the cold without a roof over my head that I can call my own.

That's if your good buddy Gordo doesn't accelerate the speed at which his supreme ineptitude is ruining "the best place on Earth", that is.

I continue in my business because I happen to like doing what I do, still, after all these years. In spite of the rise in obstacles every government we've had since WAC Bennett went out of office increasingly puts in my path.

The HST is a stupid tax, imposed by a stupid government, on what they were hoping would be a stupid people. For once, most of those people have demonstrated they just aren't THAT stupid after all.

And, while they may not all be 'financially' savvy in understanding everything about how government's pay for the services they provide, most, the overwhelming majority, I'd say, have a pretty good sense of 'intuition'.

And they instinctively 'intuit' something is wrong with this kind of a tax shift, and increase in the take they'll be paying, relative to what they'll be getting for it.

Still not to late to sign the Petition, Stompin. Or are you going to go down with the sinking ship, "BC Liberaldumb"?

I got my costco member renewal today to start July 1,2010.$55.00 plus $6.60 H.S.T.To the government it's a done deal.It would sure be nice if our signatures won the day.

woodchipper,

one fatal flaw in your assertion towards export business. The business is refunded all HST they spend, therefor all the examples you provide are incorrect, if the price of energy goes up, the HST portion is refunded to the business.

For export business the HST is a great improvement over the other system because the companies will no longer have to pay 7% PST, that was a direct cost that had no recovery other than building it into the bottom line. Now those companies will not have to pay the 7% and will be refunded the full portion.

All in all a very good change for export business.

socredible,

long rant, but you never addressed any of my questions about your previous post.

Like I have said before, I have no problem with you signing the petition if you feel thats right, but quit wasting our time spreading half truths and fear mongering. I will call you on it every time.

I support the HST, if you cant come to grips with that, thats your problem.

Let me ask you all this simple question. When the carbon tax was implemented, how many of you actually cut back on your energy consumption?

Hell, how many of you remember you pay the carbon tax?

Now I hear people claim that people will stop spending, they will all go underground.

Bunk.

Proven fact that the government knows they can take to the bank, people always resort back to their spending habits. Sadly people will resort back to their old habits, they will overspend, go father in debt, but rest assured, they will spend till the banks tell them they cant spend any more.

socredible,

Here is a very good example of how the HST will benefit my business and many many others, this is one very simple example.

I had preplaned on purchasing a piece of equipment around April 1s of this year. The decision to make this purchase was made about August of last year and the order was placed for just over $170,000.00. Once we took into consideration the HST starting on July 1st, we changed the delivery date to July 1 2010. By doing that I will save over $12,000 dollars that I would have previously had to pay in PST as well as any finacing charges on that amount.

How many other small business's will now be able to make a purchase that they could previously not afford? How many will be upgrading equipment or hiring new employees for expansion because their bottom line now looks better?

Stompin Tom...how much of this money that you plan on saving will you be turning back to your customers?
I have asked other business people the same question,and at best,the answers have been very vague.
One even said..."none" and that money saved from the HST would become part of his profit structure that he desperately needed to improve.
I also asked if they were worried about losing cusomers over the HST?
They said..."very worried".
What is wrong with this picture?

AndyFreeze

How much to I plan on turning back to my customers?

Not one cent.

How much money was I reimbursed for the carbon tax, for the raises in WCB, EI, CPP, business tax, fuel tax, PST, fee's for virtually anything I have tried to do as a business?

How naive are you people? I didnt see you fighting for me every time I got hit with a new fee or tax, why would I fight for you now?

Am I worried about losing customers over the HST? Not one bit. The playing field is level for every small business. Your competition is your fellow business's. If you do a better job than them or supply a better service, you will succeed. If you are inferior, your in trouble.

As well,the hiring of new employees because of the HST is bunk!
In simple terms,more employees...more wages paid out,benefits etc...less profit.
Just because you have more employees doesn't mean you will make more money!
It is about profit,not how many employees you have,and that is not about to change because of the HST.
So what happens?...the employer suddenly discovers he has an extra 12 thousand bucks a year coming in because of the HST and he says..OMG!(screams)..we have extra money!...extra money!OMG!(screams again)..quick..we had better hire more employees as fast as possible!!...wow!
Not!
I was in business all my life, and believe me,it just doesn't work that way!

Andyfreeze,

Growth is what enables you to bring in new employees, if you are in a favorable environment for growth, it can happen, if your in a bad environment, it doesn't.

By making tax changes which can help create a favorable environment, it can only help.

Just like those on here who whine that businesses wont pass on savings, its all about economics, will you see prices go down tomorrow? Nope, but with competition comes price changes, If you get a better economic situation, there becomes a better chance for competition, which bring a better chance for price reductions.

A simple example, if Canfor decides this tax change makes economic sense for them maybe its the deciding factor in Rustads reopening. Maybe not, but maybe, that alone could account for as many as 250 jobs back in the PG market.

Tell me this, when is the last time business had a tax break? We have been getting it up the ying yang.

Ok stompin tom its time to shake some of that stuff from your boots.

Maybe you are one of the lucky few to benefit and maybe you are being fooled by one simple dimention which you rattled through your calculator. Good for you if you succeed while many people will suffer and at least you are honest about stating thats the way you see things.

First off I said that the HST was GOOD for large exporters (who move massive volumes of our natural resources with the lowest possible labour component) (such as canfor's basic low value commodoties, now that you mention it) and if the truth be known it was no accident that they were the first to preach their prewritten script of how good a tax system it is..all over the media.
So coincidental this all out corporate support was delivered and how harmoneous it all is there must have been a little trumpeter having a party waiting to have his ideas delivered to us via government.

I don't doubt that government will claim to have caused the reopenning of operations such as rustads with the HST and certain naieve people will believe that. The price of forest products doubling over the last few months wouldn't have anything to do with it??
The HST effect on value added wood products? Well lets just say that because Canfor just got rid of its Vancouver reman plant that they see little prosperity in that type of business which employs many more people per unit than a new highly automated sawmill does. Bellingham is where that work will be done. By the way stompin tom; Bellingham Wa. is in a foreign country called the USA.
I am not sure what stompin tom would know about the forest industry and the equipment he claims to save 12 grand once the HST comes into force...isn't forestry related machinery as that is already exempted from the PST or refunded if paid and the GST is refunded costing zero grand.

Supposing you do save YOUR 12 grand upfront when you buy your piece of equipment, BUT expect to pay your employee operator more than you saved so that employee can afford to live at the standard he/she had before this HST and the carbon tax increases AGAIN. Hire a mechanic to fix your equipment and pay another 7% more on labour AND YES you will get that back IF you don't receive a surplus on what you must charge to your customer(s). Having customers is very important to any business stompin tom as I am sure you as a business person must know. Suppose you plow driveways with your machine (and do not do this on a underground cash basis) you will have to charge the customer 12%HST rather than 5%GST. Everything your machine costs you will cost more PLUS in most cases more taxes and finally when you plow some little old ladies drive way you will have to add another 12% on top of that. The pittance of a fixed HST tax refund (to low income earners) won't put a dent into what it will cost these individuals. This little old lady being your gramma might already be broke trying to afford her new increased heat and hydro bills with increased carbon taxes and HST.

MOST IMPORTANTLY IF THEY HAD IT TO SPEND THEY PROBABLY WON'T unless absolutely necesary and your snowplowing business is toast and so is your employee's job, and maybe your mechanic's job, and maybe your accountants job.(you should get a new accountant anyways) They had driveways to plow too, but no money to pay so they will just shovel them instead...just in case someone from the bank with a car needs to come and repossess the house.

IF you stompin tom are actually an employer and not some liberal spinner then don't be thinking your "ying yang" will be safe anytime soon.

Gawd, I can't believe all you business owners can afford to spend so much time flogging a keyboard. Business taking care of itself?

stomping tom; earlier on you made a statement concerning the east coast moving to hst and being wiser than Saskatchewan.
I encouraged you to check things out. Obviously you were too busy running your business. When Newfoundland went to the hst
their pst and gst combined was 19%. Nova Scotia and New Brunswick paid 18.7%. All 3 provinces now pay 13% hst. A substantial savings i'd say. Apparently PEI still hasn't gone to hst and pay 10% pst. Saskatchewan has a 5% pst and 5% gst at present.

Oh by the way, according to all reports Saskatchewan's economy is doing well and it would appear their premier doesn't have to play fast and loose with the truth.

Exactly Woodchipper... Stomping Tom doesn't know what he is talking about.

When I was producing with my manufacturing business all my inputs for the end product were PST exempt... PST added nothing to the cost of my actual production, as PST is only applied to the end product. HST makes no savings to the actual end product... it only increases the amount of cash flow through the product via the pay now and later the remittance.

What HST does do is give a tax break to the overhead and admin costs of the business by remitting their tax obligations, and thus paying for this tax holiday by increasing tax on a whole new list of things that were never taxed before to be paid for by those without a business license.

Its a tax transfer from business admin and overhead (ie new trucks, office equipment, travel, ect) from business to things like meals and hair cuts and all sorts of other things the BC liberals wouldn't want to increase taxes on independently as a stand alone, because as a line item tax increase they would be increasing the tax on hundreds if not thousands of individual things that were previously exempt. Its a way to evade responsibility for good tax policy by surrendering provincial sovereignty in the name of an efficiency of production that simply does not exist. Its the best way to sell a tax transfer and increase to the public is all that it is and its done by saying "We (the provincial liberals) Defy the middle class working people in this province and will do it despite the rule of law in democratic process".

Its pure tyranny of the elected office.

Hey Stompin--you don't have to fight for us. We are doing it on our own,and I might add, winning. You asked what the reason for this was and what the expected outcome would be so I presume you haven't followed the procedure at all. So I will spell it out for you---
1. get minimum of 10% of the voters in every riding to sign petition.
2. Give petions to elections BC and they will tally the votes.
3. If the votes are valid and the required number is reached, it forces the BC government to take the HST to a provincial referendum.

I'm not sure what the percentage is for a referendum to be valid but it should be 50% plus 1. (I'm dreaming here)

This whole scenario is not an easy ride, but it is do-able. It is the only chance we have of forcing a convicted felon and dictator (Campbell) to listen to us. You can go for the HST on any basis you like but do not call the rest of us 'fear mongerers'. No need for childish name calling here. There is no way you can convince us that more tax is a good thing for the MAJORITY of the people. Small business is not included in the Majority. Please keep the school yard name calling in the Legislature and the HOUSE of Commons, where it belongs.

This HST legislation is in violation of section 92 (2) of the Constitution Act... the province has direct taxation authority within the province in order to raise revenue for the provincial government. Only a provincial referendum in BC can change that. This HST legislation has never been put to a vote and in fact was misrepresented in the last election as something that was not part of the governments plans... only to be changed less then 48-hours after the vote... the vote was not an informed vote with regards to the HST, and even if it was it takes a provincial referendum to change the constitutional powers.

Stephen (firewall) Harper was the one that based his political rise to prominence on the idea of people having a say in their government, and was a big supporter of referendums and provincial sovereignty over taxation. His turnabout on this issue is hypocritical and a direct rebuttal to the values he claimed to stand for.

Can we ever again trust anything the Harper government tells us in an election?

Harper has the power to hold off implementation of this (We Defy the Democratic Process) exercise in tyranny by not allowing implementation until the votes have been counted. This is the litmus test of the federal conservatives... whether they in fact stand true to their pro-ported values, or whether they are for sale to the highest corporate bidder when it comes to tax transfers against the people through hidden undemocratic agenda's.

Who is Stephen Harper anyways now that we know he doesn't stand for the things he claims he stands for at election time?

Will Stephen Harper defend the democratic process or run over it because it suits his agenda?

If Harper stands for the democratic values he claims to hold as the basis of his Canadian tax payers federation days, then he will hold off implementation until the votes are counted by the people of BC. If this happens we will have no PST or HST until the votes are counted as the vote in the BC legislature is to repeal the PST and not to implement the HST. Gordon Campbell has no say in the implementation of the HST, as its a federal legislation and the province is abandoning their constitutional responsibilities to protect the sovereign BC right to taxation authority under section 92(2).

Clearly if the Crown (Governor General - the problem with puppet figure heads) was anything of worth it would intervene to protect the sanctity of our democratic process... clearly the Crown is a relic who's relevance is on trial here. A Crown that has as its only duty the duty of a final arbiter on the rule of law.

If HST passes we clearly have multiple constitution issues that should and will be addressed.

The Chamber of Commerce has come out totally in favour of the HST.
They are having their trade show in Terrace this weekend.
Because of their position I will not attend.

Stompin, if you purchased your $ 170,000 piece of equipment right now, while PST is still in effect, it is quite true that you will not get to use the 7% PST that you'll pay on its purchase price as an Input Tax Credit to offset the PST you collect on your Sales.

As you will certainly be able to do under the 12% HST, and can now already do with the 5%GST. Effectively giving you the
12 % HST tax back on your purchase, after July 1st, if you delay til then.

But that doesn't mean with the 7% PST, as it is now, you won't get what you paid in PST back entirely. Right now, the 7% PST you'd pay on top of the equipment's
$ 170,000 price tag will become a part of the "Capital Costs" of that equipment.

And you'll recover it, just as you'll recover what you paid for the machine itself, through 'Depreciation' charges allocated against your Sales over whatever period is allowed for the depreciation of that particular type of Asset.

Those annual 'Depreciation' charges will be deducted from your Sales, along with all your other "Expenses" to arrive at your 'Profit', (or 'Loss', as the case may be).

And on this "Profit", assuming your investment has generated one, you will be subject to Income Tax charges. The vast majority of which will go to the FEDERAL government, and only a minor portion to the BC government.

Now under HST you'll recover the 7% Provincial portion equivalent to the PST you paid as an Income Tax Credit, lowering the overall "Capital Cost" of your equipment by that much, or 7%.

So when you allocate your annual Depreciation charges against your Sales that amount is now smaller, increasing your operating 'Profit' AND the (mainly) FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S INCOME TAX TAKE FROM YOU.

(If you were running a large, publicly traded, multi-national as its CEO, this increase in before-tax "Profit" is going to make you look mighty good to the Shareholders. You might even be able to arrange for a nice bonus on top of your already substantial salary!)

That's extra Income Tax money that is taken out of this Province, Stompin, money that goes to straight to Ottawa, to be spent however OTTAWA so chooses. It's lost to BC, we don't get it anymore as we do now through the PST, to pay for, or on, things needed HERE.

And it has been calculated to be around
$ 2 billion MORE in Income Taxes that'll be going that way ANNUALLY ~ EVERY YEAR, through this change to the HST.

Against that our financially 'brilliant' Premier has received a ONE-TIME 'bribe' from the Feds of $ 1.6 billion to agree to this fiscal fiasco.

Most of which he doesn't want to take 'now', when it could be used to help fund a number of badly underfunded services, but will defer taking, by choice, until the year of the next Provincial election.

So he can use it then to try to convince us "hard times" are over, and his wonderful fiscal management has "turned the Province around." Again.

BC doesn't even get to collect the "interest" on it in the interim, even if he took it all now and didn't spend it until then. And this guy has a MBA degree?

Now look at where the Federal government, a minority government at this time, has the greatest opportunity to increase its seat count in the next Federal election. Ontario and Quebec. Do you seriously believe that this extra estimated $ 2 billion is going to be lavished on us here? To help out "our" economy, where it
was generated? In a pig's eye it will!

But what should we expect from a "global groupie"? His sycophantic pandering to the "Who's Who" of international "High Finance", and their upper echelon 'hangers on', like Al Gore, all at OUR expense, is so reminescent of "Branch Plant" Brian (Mulroney) it's enough to make me puke!

some people have toooooooo much time on their hands....what else do you guys do???

Woodchipper, I think you've got it figured out pretty well in respect to the HST's effects on "value-added" and other BC producers, most of them small businesses, oriented to the domestic market.

I'm NOT much of a believer in "conspiracy theories", though there is no doubt various people do 'conspire' with one another to achieve some desired end. But if one's ultimate goal was to decimate the ranks of the "independent producers" in favour of the greater growth of the "consolidated monopolist", and have a "government" assist in that process, this HST fits the bill perfectly.

You mean to tell me you spent the last 30 minutes reading all that? Or is that just an off-the-cuff remark.

Get back to facebook where you belong .... :-)

Joeboy:-"Gawd, I can't believe all you business owners can afford to spend so much time flogging a keyboard. Business taking care of itself?"
----------------------------------------
Fast typing, Joeboy. That's the secret!

Thanks for the input on the HST situation back East.

I look at it this way. The government of the day thinks it is doing the right thing. We elected them to run the province. Made a mistake? Fix it at the next election.

In the meantime, there is not a single person on here that knows what the effect will be. They have opinions, but that is all they are, even if they are so called "educated" opinions. They will also have a good idea how it will affect them.

People are generally not that stupid that they do not know how things will affect them.

I just bought a memory chip for $50. Paid 5% + 7% tax. If I had waited till July I could have saved 50 cents. With that 50 cents I could have bought a $8.25 appetizer at Chimo's and given them the 50 cents for the provincial part of the HST.

Advantage? Nil. Unless Chimo's drops their prices.

There is no way anyone can get around the fact that sales taxes are regressive. By their design, they have proportionally less effect on the rich than the poor.

I found this interesting opinion by the left wing finacial analysts at the TD Bank ... LOL....

" .... the tax burden will shift from businesses to consumers, who will now pay the flat HST on a BROADER array of goods and services than before, and the effective tax rate on consumption will INCREASE by 1.5 percentage points in Ontario and B.C. , and the overall price level will increase by 0.7 percentage points in both provinces

The combined impact will lead to a PERMANENT 0.4% increase in Canada’s average annual consumer price level relative to where it would have been without harmonization.

Okay, fly at 'er you armchair economists who happen to think that running a business gives you a PhD in economics and tell us these people at the TD Bank really do not know what they are talking about.

Ya Stompin Tom sure sounds like a politician, sounds alot like Pat Belly or any one those clowns that seem to know what is best for the rest of us "Taxpayers".

That's true, gus. The "propensity to consume" falls off as income rises.

Once you've acquired the new golf clubs, the motor-home, the 'four poster bed', and the upscale digs to put it in, it's generally a long time before you want another one.

So the 'rich' generally invest more of their incomes than they spend on further personal consumption.

Theoretically, this should make them 'richer' still, as their investments pay off.

But here's the thing. For those investments TO pay off there has to be "spending" on the consumption of the increased products or services they've enabled. By somebody. For while it's true that "unit cost is a function of volume", many overlook the FACT that it's still the TOTAL "cost" of ALL the "units" that has to be liquidated. And that "cost" is ALWAYS the governing factor of the LOWER limit of price ~ not supply and demand, as it is on the UPPER limit.

And if governments keep removing proportionally more of people's incomes in taxation, while at the same time, in the WHOLE ECONOMY, personal 'Incomes', taken collectively, are FALLING in ratio to the overall 'Costs of Production' continually coming forward into the Prices of consumer goods ('falling' through ongoing 'labour displacement' as we become less 'labour' and more 'capital' intensive in all our industries), then just where is the 'money' going to come from to BUY the products enabled by the 'investments' of the 'rich'? Certainly not just from "employment".

There was an answer posited a great many years ago, and put in simple form it stated that, "If the machine will do 100 men's work, then it should be able to pay 100 men's wages." But can it? And if it can't, then how do those "100 men" ever BUY the product of the "machine"?

A few decades ago the former head of the United Auto Workers Union in the US, Walter Reuther, then long retired from that position, and from a later one as US Ambassador to China back when Jimmy Carter was President, was asked by Ford Motor Comaony to come to the grand opening of one of their newest car plants.

Probably to show just how much had improved in the field of labour relations since the 1930's, when Ford's own private 'police' force opened up with a sub-machine gun on some of Reuther's UAW strikers, and laid quite a beating on Reuther himself. They'd kind of patched up their differences since then.

Reuther was conducted on a tour of the plant, after the ribbon was cut, and inside, in many places where there once had been hundreds of workers manning an assembly line, there were now only robotic arms, computer controlled, and overseen by only a few workers up in a control booth to ensure everything functioned properly.

As he watched the modern day "making of a Ford", a young, future Company 'executive' pointed at the moving mechanical arms and said to him, wryly, "Pretty hard to get THOSE kind of "workers" to go on strike, huh, Mr. Reuther."

To which Reuther replied, "Pretty hard to get "them" to BUY your cars, too." And there you have it. There's the "real" problem. How do we overcome it?

Well, right now we try to make what isn't needed, or often even desired, just to try to distribute enough "incomes" to buy what is.

And so we have Olympic games, and Site C's, and such like, whether really "needed" or "desired", or not, in their own right, but essential for that "financial" purpose. And a great push to flog what we've made on the people of other countries, whether they want it, or need it, or not. Or can even 'pay' us for it.

The proper origin of ALL economic activity, genuine CONSUMER DEMAND, is prostrated before a fetish to somehow or other "make more work". To get more "incomes". We do that. But we're really 'working' against ourselves.

Gus, the predictions of 'economists'have a track record for accuracy worse than those of the weatherman. Whether they work for the TD Bank or not, and maybe especially if they do. Their 'function' is to provide the "bull" to make the conclusion their employer has already decided they will arrive at look credible. They don't bite the hand that feeds them.

...amen socredible...amen!

'Economists' don't run the TD Bank, Gus. Or any other chartered Bank. 'Accountants' do. And the two don't exactly speak the same language.

They operate under different rules and conventions. While what accountants are able to produce in the way of financial statements are generally a reasonably accurate and useful numerical 'reflection' of any individual Firm's past history, present position, and future prospects, their involvement stops there.

There is currently no way to relate what is taking place "accountancy-wise" in ALL Firm's, taken as a WHOLE over any SAME given fiscal period, to 'money' itself and the economy as a whole.

The 'economists' are called upon to try to do that, but invariably they fail.

Accounting is 'two-dimensional', whereas the reality it's trying to represent is 'three'. There's the "debtor", the "creditor", AND the "money".