Cant wait for the whining to begin.

"HST credit to help low- and modest-income families. 1.1 million British Columbians will benefit from the credit"

I hadnt heard about that before, and its interesting that the fear mongers havent brought it up, I guess gramma can get a little bit of money to help pay the HST while getting her driveway plowed, but then again, isnt virtually every driveway plowed on the underground economy system?

"Legislation Passed to Clear Way for HST"

Gee, I didn't see that coming.

Isn't it interesting what some people consider whining? Others call it keeping our government in check. Goodbye Liberals, it was interesting.

This government defies the democratic process is what this means.

The BC liberals have no respect for the petition process underway and no respect for informing the voter of their hidden agenda's at election time. It shows a cold calculating government using game theory to govern, rather than the will of the people.

The petition process will go on, and hopefully the recall process after that. IMO its the Harper government that should hold off on implementing the HST until the petition process is over otherwise they too have no respect for the democratic process and should also be held to account for their crimes.

This is a law that is in violation of section 92(2) of the Canadian constitution governing taxation powers and the process for devolving them to the central government. It undermines BC sovereignty to create a tax policy that works for British Columbia, and is done in an expedient way to ram through transfers of taxation responsibility from the corporations to the middle working class families all in one action.

This has nothing to do with creating competitive conditions for business, as there was nothing to stop the provincial government from making the PST work for those ends. The PST could have easily been worked to make more production related things exempt, or to give remittances for corporate overhead and admin expenses if that was the competitive advantage the government wanted to debate in elections and get approval to implement through legislative debates (I agree small business is over taxed as opposed to the multinational corporations)... but they didn't want to do that... they choose to defy the citizens of BC through a back room hidden agenda, so they could get quick cash to cover for inept provincial budgeting designed to win an election, and handing their globalist corporate sponsors that they work for a gifted tax holiday after the election.

Its atrocious and I think we should start a free enterprise party to bring some accountability to the system, or we will find that soon we are all nothing more than numbers and slaves to the globalist whims on decisions made elsewhere in banker board rooms in New York, London, Shanghai, and Tokyo. This is a battle now for our democracy and its a battle the people of BC can not afford to loose from complacency.

I'm going to start working on a first principles document for a new free enterprise 'league'. I think its long over due. The working middle class and small business people of this province need to be represented as well, and that isn't going to happen the way things are now with the current choices available at election time....

I just do not know which is worse; Gordos lies or his arrogance and utter contempt.

Sig Heil

"HST credit to help low- and modest-income families. 1.1 million British Columbians will benefit from the credit"
-----------------------------------------
And we all know these families are just going to all be SO much better off under the HST....

Tell me, when Gordo brags about making BC "number One" again, do you think he's counting from the bottom up? After all, we can hardly be "globally competitive" with ONLY 1.1 million of us as low- and modest-income earners, can we?

As for my comment about whining, lets see:

Eagleone, constructive comments.

Denaljo, whinning

camoose, whinning

socredible, whinning


I rest my case.

There is a major difference between discussing a story or event or just hit and run whinning.

Gordo and Hansen said the government was trying to inform British Columbians about the HST.

The Government did inform us about the HST; they said it wouldn't happen

"HST credit to help low- and modest-income families. 1.1 million British Columbians will benefit from the credit"

Yeah. How about the truth of what that number actually means. It means 25% of British Columbians are living in poverty.

We knew damn well they would slime the HST in,one way or the other.
The Campbell thugs were obviously threatened by the pace at which the petition against the HST was moving and the numbers signing up.
I guess they figured pulling the trigger as fast as possible would save their sorry a**es.
Wrong.
They have probably never seen the voters of B.C. fight back like they have on this, or as angry,and it is not what they expected,I'm sure.
Still,there is something pretty disgusting about a government that would fight the very people who elected them to this extent.
Makes you wonder what else they are capable of?
Beside lying,that is.
Rest assured,I will be informing my MLA that he and his cronies have just committed political suicide, because I also noticed my particular MLA did not stand up for those who voted for him, as we told him to do.
He stood with Gordon Campbell, against his consituents.
That makes him a self-serving coward and it will be remembered for along time to come.
Huge political blunder!

Once in forever,! I drop into this site to see what's going on. oh my, the same names come up --"stompin';eagle one; Pg man; . socr==the same old dead wanna bees. Same old, same old, same crap from each of these
opinionated old people. 250---sounds like this is a private site with the same old guys here,.Bye forever from me.

quesnel, are we supposed to know who you are? Can you tell us why should we care if you leave?

Eagle:-"I'm going to start working on a first principles document for a new free enterprise 'league'. I think its long over due.
------------------------------------------ Spare yourself the effort, Eagle. If you look on ElectionsBC's website there's already a plethora of existing 'free enterprise', and other, "Parties" listed. You could probably pick almost any one of them up for a fraction of the cost someone must've spent in forming and registering them.

Most of these Parties the majority of British Columbians have never even heard of, and probably never will.

The only free enterprise "league", (anti-"Party" Party) that ever got anywhere was BC Social Credit, and that happened by a line up of fortuitous circumstances that'll never be repeated.

Alberta's Premier Manning provided the necessary dough, the most important pre-requisite.

And he did so in the rather Machiavellian hope that the "monetary reform" faction in the original Alberta Social Credit League ~ the ones who blamed all the world's ills, real and imagined, on the "Zionist banksters" ~ would come out here, preach their "Grand Conspiracy" line, and be roundly rejected as complete "kooks" by the BC voters, completely discrediting themselves as a force within Alberta and national "Social Credit", (so called, anyways.)

And if that, perchance, backfired, and the people bought their line, he'd be the recipient of all the credit for providing the 'money', and acclaimed as the undisputed "leader" of (so-called) "Social Credit" in Canada. Very shrewd political manouvering on his part ~ either way he'd come out ahead. (Maybe he was a closet Zionist! He did become a "bankster", sort of, after he retired as Premier, as a director of CIBC. )

They did come, and made common cause with their few like minded counterparts here. And they preached their stuff, and they were roundly rejected ~ nobody understood what they were talking about, and it sounded goofy.

Which isn't surprising, since by and large they didn't understand it themselves. Or any kind of practical "monetary reform" either. Certainly not along the lines that 'Social Credit' originally proposed when the principles were first explained by Major C H Douglas, in England, right after World War One.

Fortunately, in 1952 there were enough others running as Socreds who wisely concentrated on talking about getting "the People" the 'RESULTS' they wanted ~ roads, economic development, low-cost electric power, sustained yield forestry, lower taxes, hospitals, schools, etc., ~ stuff people DID understand ~ that, with the help of WAC Bennett's experience in the Legislature, and that screwball effort at Proprtional Representation then being tried, they got in.

In the election that first brought Campbell to power in 2001, BC Social Credit (it DOES still exist as a "Party", and it doesn't want to return to being a "League" ~ not until all the stock of "Party" supplies it has left over from last time it was government are all used up, anyways ~ they cost 'money', and that's in short supply nowadays ), was going to try for a comeback. It was going to bill itself as "the Voice of Small Business in BC". Two, or maybe it was three, hopefuls even stood for election. They got nowhere. The "Voice" has had laryngitis since.

I don't believe another "Party", or even a "league" that's going to field candidates is ever going to be the answer. If it ever achieved office it would soon be as corrupted by power as the guy who's there now. The ONLY way to change that is to force those we elect to the Legislature, whatever their "Party", to be what they're supposed to be. OUR REPRESENTATIVES. The Petition, when it succeeds, is the first step to doing just that.

quesnel, see ya.

That's it, Stompin, only it's spelled "winning", there's no "h" in it.

So Stomping Tom likes discussions.
Well lets try this one on for size. Tom; do you remember what the 10 commandments are?
Didn't think so. So just google them up and when you get to the one that forbids lying perhaps you might take a minute and reflect upon that one.
Actually; you might get a real kick out of the first one saying not to have false gods. You know - like lusting after power . I will leave it at that now as I would not want to be accused of whining. Or is it whinning? Or maybe wining!!!

Denaljo,

I guess you havnt spent to much time following this subject the past few weeks. If you did you would know this, there is one person I support on this cause, and that is myself. I have been very forthright in that, no bones about it.

HST is good for me and my business. I have said that many, many times. I have also said many times for others to do as they please, if they chose to sign, great, if they dont, great, I have never tried to convince anybody to change their opinion.

What I have done is point out the half truths, lies and fear mongering others have done mainly with regards to the effect of HST on small business.

If you chose to make me your martyr, thats your prerogative, it only shows your inability to comprehend what you read.

"The ONLY way to change that is to force those we elect to the legislature, whatever their "Party", to be what they're supposed to be. OUR REPRESENTATIVES. The Petition, when it succeeds, is the first step to doing just that."

Exactly socredible!

socredible, Eagleone,

just what is it that your "winning"?

As was pointed out by Vdesign in a previous thread this campaign is more like a 5 part series in order to gain anything, your petition is a simple 1st step which leads to a much, much larger and harder battle.

Something for you to think about, you keep talking about democracy, but in my world democracy or majority rule is 50% plus 1. Not 10% or the 15% your striving for. You seem to feel that your petition achieving a goal of 15% represents democracy. It does not, it is only an initiative to put it to a vote which then requires 50% plus 1 vote. That is where democracy comes into play.

You expect the government to change their direction now when you haven't yet achieved the 1st step in this process?

If you truly believe in democracy and are not just giving it lip service you will follow all the steps in order for this initiative to succeed, not claim success for the total project based on only the 1st initiative. In this regard you are no better than what evils you claim the current governments have committed.

quesnel,

great job in pointing out that you dont have anything of value to add, but you didnt have to bother, its not hard to figure out.

You have got a point there eagleone, there is no PARTY to vote for.

Something goes wrong with our BC governments once they are elected and around for a while. All of them have failed because of their arrogance and/or decieptfull/misconduct and or dictator type leadership.

It is not democracy when we elect an MLA who cannot represent us, the constituants, but must tow the line of the party leader.
They must be a team player or they are put on the back benches to watch what the leader forces the other team players to do.

Like a bunch of ravens perched on each side of a dumpster squawking at the other side, mainly because the others are on the other side. These are not constructive debates which focuss on advancing constituants interests, they are squawking contests. How better to disengage the voters from what,how and who runs our provincial government.It almost seems as though this is the goal so as to avoid real voter interaction. As long as the media lets out the odd sentence that conveys the sales pitch which people like stompin tom will gobble up, well so much for the truthfull details which actually count.

Most of these elected ravens are actually inteligent people and I think most of them would rather serve their constituants than a dictator. If they don't think that now, they will next election.

BUT, the whole cycle will just start again.

In the last election, one independent won and a second new independent nearly won his seat as well. We would have democracy if most of our MLAs were "independent" of a party dictator and a ultra right or ultra left agenda. This pendulum swings too far each way, each time we oust one and replace with the other, and back again, each time costing us a fortune.

It is not either one of our two dominant parties which is the problem, it is the party SYSTEM that is the problem in this province. We can do much better than this.

Tom you are needed on another site!

Don't let the door slam you in the !

Well you know the rest.

Tom the law says if you get 10% to sign on for a petition you then can have a vote. It would not only be the first step in the democratic process it would be the first time anyone in BC has had a say in this massive transformational tax transfer.

Socred, you underestimate the power of taking extremism out of the political process. I would argue every single other party registered with Elections BC has an agenda that is personal for some, but in no way is it universal. A universalist (in the rule of law) free enterprise party simply does not exist at this time. A league where the rule of law is the genus of its being and local grass roots representation is its strength.... I like the word league rather than party and on that point I think we could agree there is a method to limit the centralization of our representation.

I'm in no way talking about the Social Credit Party of old. They came to power because WAC was everyone's second choice in a transferable ballot... we need a political force that is everyone's first choice, because it represents our traditional free enterprise values and not corporate monopoly capital globalism, or those on the take for the government dole.

Stompin Tom, probably known as Pat Bell, owner of the Wendy's restaurants in town. Let me start my protest by refusing to give any business to Wendy's AKA as Pat Bell's interests.

Whether Pat Bell is "Stompin Tom" or not, Pat Bell is going against the wishes of his constituents. I will never, knowingly, darken the doorway of any of his business's in the future. I am also in a position, to create a lot of bad advertising if necessary for anybody, that breaks common decency codes.

Pretty mush had enough of listening to "Stompin Toms" weak arguments.

And one more thing Tom, if you want to call me a "whiner", a "winer" or a frikken "winner", it doesn't much matter. In a true democracy, I, and anybody else that so chooses, can whine as much as we want. Do you understand that concept Pat??

Only this time Patty Belly, we are going to get results. Lieberal's are gone.

Hey everybody, vote against the HST, and quit supporting Wendy's Restaurants in Prince George

I agree...boycott Wendy's.
Pat Bell knew his constituents who elected him were against the HST, but chose to ignore their wishes in order to serve his master Gordon Campbell.
Why would anyone patronize his business?
(not that I eat that crap anyway!)

Eagleone,

I understand its the 1st step in the process, the problem is it appears many others feel its the only step. Read Andyfreezes responce. They feel that because there is a petition ongoing the government should stop everything they are doing and wait to see if they succeed. They dont understand how things actually work, and frankly I dont think your leaders have done a very good job of letting them know.

taxinapothole,

once again I see your reading comprehension rivals others on this site. If you chose to make me your martyr, thats your perogative.

"Pretty mush had enough of listening to "Stompin Toms" weak arguments."

If my arguments are so weak, how come you dont choose to respond to them, rather go with a hit and run approach, or is it simply the fact that you cant accept the fact that there are differing view from yours and you dont have the ability to debate on the merits of what is written?

I may not agree with Eagleone or socredible on much in this debate, but atleast they try to debate rather than come up with conspiracy theories.

Eagleone

"This government defies the democratic process is what this means."

With respect to the above news report, your responce wouldnt be more wrong.

You are part of a petition in which you are trying to get approval to hold a reforendum to have legislation repealed. Before you can repeal legislation doesnt it in fact have to become legislation?

They are following the democratic process as it is written to a tee, and using it to their advantage. Unfortunatly you and your cronies don't have the required patience to uphold your end of the process and resort to mud slinging tactics.

Stomping tom a martyr!? That is laughable. You thing too highly of yourself.

I sent the following letter to Shirley Bond, Rustad and Pat Bell on Wednesday night. They all smiled as they signed against the people who pay their wages and voted for them to represent us in parliament. Here is the letter.


Good Evening to you all


I am writing to request that you stand behind the people who voted you in to parliament to represent them. Please do not vote yes for Bill 9! It will be political suicide to do so. Give the people who pay your wages a chance to finish their Stop the HST Initiative. They are signing in the masses. I am proud to be a British Columbian and humbled to see how the people have banded together on this issue. It is amazing to see that we are not as passive as some would believe.

You also need to be very aware that recall is next on the agenda as soon as it is possible. If you do not represent us you stand to lose your job and will never have most of us vote for you again. British Columbians are not going to back down on this issue. Transferring a tax burden from the riche and corporations onto the hard working people, is wrong. We are just coming out of a recession for God sakes.

I am a canvasser for the Mackenzie riding for the Stop the HST. Not only are the people signing in droves but they are telling their feelings as well. The most heart breaking ones of all are, the shaking hands of the elderly who are scared, stressed out and disillusioned. These are the people that built this province with blood, sweat and tears. They saved for their retirement and thought they saved enough. Now they see it eaten away, more and more every day. Hydro increases to the tune of 33% in 3 years? What ever happened to the days of one or two percent increases at a time? Carbon tax, HST, utility increases across the board, food costs and gas. It never ends for the already poor. The middle class (tax payers) is shrinking and the poor and government workers are increasing. Every year you need more money, there will never be enough, you will always need more. Where will this end? Most of us see the cow drying up.

Do the right thing, even if you believe this tax is good for BC. What you face if you continue on this arrogant path is the disdain from 87% of the people of this province. Stand behind us and you can hold your head up high. The people would rally behind you like they are Mr. Vander Zalm. You would all become hero's in our eyes.

I just thought you should know one hard working woman's feelings.

OBVIOUSLY IT HAD NO MEANING, AT ALL.

Good one Shellshadow.
I did the same,and I am sure many others did as well.
Obviously the concerns of their constituents were not as important as their blind loyalty to Gordon Campbell.
These "elected representatives" have betrayed the very people who voted for them,and that will not be forgotten soon.
What this is really all about is a desperate government who blew it all,and that 1.2 billion from the feds is needed to cover their sorry asses.
They are deathly afraid that the voting public will find out just how bad they have screwed it up,and where it all went.
We may never know the truth.
We are now being bombarded with feel good legislation and drivel in hopes of curbing the anger.
Not going to work.
This is a complete betrayal by a dictatorial government under Gordon Campbell,and that will not be forgotten soon.
I would suggest somebody get a rope.

Stompin Tom...exactly what wing of the Campbell dictatorship do you work for?

Ahhh, Andy,

Never let a good story get in the way of the facts.

Is it that hard for you to beleive somebody has a differing opinion?

That is sad, truly sad. You claim to stand for democracy, yet your not will to let the process work itself out nor are you willing to accept the fact that others may not agree with you.

Shellshadow,

kinda curious where you get the 87% of the people line from?

By the way Andy,

where were you when I was getting hit with tax increases, new fee's after new fee's, new levels of government with their hands in my pockets?

Yup, getting your EI cheque and not giving a damn. Now you think I should blindly support you on a cause which helps me? Your laughable.

Actually Tom,I was running my own business,as I did for many years,and not whining about how tough it was.
Self-employed for much of my working life.
Did ok too...retired early.
You still working buddy?

Andy,

yup, still working and love it.

Stompin Tom as usual is looking after his own ass, and to hell with everyone else.

He should know that this petition in approved by Election BC which is an arm of the Government. The petition procedure legislation was brought in by the NDP, and fine tuned (in the Governments favour) by the Liberals.

What we now have is the Government doing its best to stop citizens from using the very legislation they brought in to allow them to protest perceived unfair legislation.

The fact that 1.1 Million people will get some sort of fairy tale refund is bogus. The fact of the matter is the taxpayers have to pay this refund. Considering that Corportation will get a huge decrease in taxes, they sure as hell wont be paying it.

The proponents of the HST petition knew that this legislation would be in place before the the petition process was complete, and that is whey the petition is to RECIND the HST legislation.

Once they get the required number of signatures (and they will) then the Government will have to pass the reciding legislation, go to a referendum, or completly ignore the petition. Whatever action they take no longer matters. This situation has become a political bombshell for the Liberals, and I suggest that there days are numbered.

People should read the the fighthst.com website to get some insight into how this legislation works.

Have a nice day. You to Tom

Palopu,

once again spreading your half truths and down right lies.

I suggest your read your own elections BC petition so you to can know the facts.

http://www.elections.bc.ca/index.php/referenda-recall-initiative/initiative/hst/

nowhere is the word RECIND in your petition.

As I have said before, people should read and understand what they are signing, not just take your word for it.



Your quote:

"What we now have is the Government doing its best to stop citizens from using the very legislation they brought in to allow them to protest perceived unfair legislation."

Fear mongering at its best, please show where the government is stopping or hindering this process?

Your petition is based upon the HST already being in effect, the government is doing exactly what they have to do to pass their legislation. Your petition is based on the theory that the law is already in place and recognizes the fact that it will be in place before you petition is completed.

It is you who has a naive understanding that they should stop moving forward because a petition has been enacted when in fact your very leaders recognize the process will take a year or more to come to fruition.

liberals were voted in ,we spoke now its done !! anyway,,, has anyone ever been happy with any govt ???????

taxinapothole: "Stompin Tom, probably known as Pat Bell, owner of the Wendy's restaurants in town. Let me start my protest by refusing to give any business to Wendy's AKA as Pat Bell's interests."

lol! Now he's accusing another poster of being a prominent politician! He accused me of being Bruce Strachan a couple weeks ago. Hilarious!

Stompin', don't let the herd bother you (and it's clear that you don't).

This site is full of people who can't deal with the fact that someone might have a different view than they do.

Stompin, if you study the matter, you'll find that "democracy" is not "the RULE of the majority", which would be the ultimate tyranny.

It is rather "the POLICY of the majority." Of "We, the People". All of us, not just a "Party" with the most seats in the Legislature that thinks that gives it free reign to impose on us whatever its Leader dictates.

The Petition is the FIRST step towards 'officially' determining what that 'Policy' is. It is being conducted under the Law, as it is written, that enables that to happen if a minimum 10% of registered voter's in every riding sign the Petition, and their signatures are later verified by ElectionsBC.

We are well on the way to "winning" THAT FIRST STEP of what will be an admittedly cumbersome process.

Unofficially, through the obviously overwhelming number of British Columbians every 'poll' taken has indicated are against the HST, it already seems pretty clear to all but a small group of people elected to the Legislature, supposedly to "represent" US, what "Policy" the majority desires.

If we were receiving proper "representation" from those people, this process would be unnecessary. We are not. And so it is.

They are determined to force upon us a Tax shift and additional exactions most of us have clearly indicated we do not want.

They did not seek a mandate to bring in this kind of tax, and clearly indicated to the BC public that it would NOT be implemented if they were elected when they were directly questioned on it during the last general election campaign.

Properly, under the traditions of the British parliamentary system we use as the basis for our government here, any government that feels the necessity of reversing itself, or implementing an unpopular measure that it feels is vital for the country's overall well-being, must always be prepared to make the case for that measure directly to the people, and call a general election, or hold a referendum on it, if there is considerable doubt the people are unconvinced.

That is the basis of both "representative" and "responsible" government. And on this issue there is clearly way MORE than "considerable doubt" most of us are convinced the HST is needed.

Mr. Campbell, by introducing "fixed election dates", has very conveniently removed the ability for his government to be "responsible" to the people through being willing to stand or fall on the public's determination of this issue through calling a general election. And he will not put it to us in a Referendum either.

To say we can wait until the next election to vote him out if we still don't like the HST just doesn't cut it.

If it IS a NECESSARY Tax, then he should be prepared to make the full case for it NOW, and be willing to stake his, and his Party's continued authority to govern on it. Right now, not in 2013.

That is the basis of 'democracy' in our parliamentary system, and that is what's at stake here if we do not stand up for our "Rights", while we still have them.

Thanks Stompin Tom.

Its good to know that there are some people that realize that no government employees work for free. They need to get paid too. Hospital workers need to get paid, skool districkt needs money, roads need to get plowed. I wonder where this money comes from. I wonder if the actual benefactors of the services need to pay for it.

I think Gordo, being in power has the ability to do what he thinks is best for our province. having new taxes to replace a old tax is not popular. But a leader has to do things which are unpopular to look after what is best for the province. Its no different than parenting, sometimes we need to do things which are not popular, but it is the right thing to do.

Thank you Gordo, for having the insight to do the dirty work and move this province forward. All the naysayers will likely never realize or ever appreciate what your going to do for us. But this cowboy in the back of the room sees the big picture, and thank you for setting this province into the right direction.

At the end of it all, yes you can say you made a difference, Yes you did do the best that you could. Yes you do deserve to tip the glass back..... (take a cab)

He spoke, would you feel the same way if the NDP were in power and Ms. James did what she thought was "the right thing to do", even if a majority of all the people, and even of most of those who'd voted NDP to put her there, were saying otherwise?

We had ten years of that kind of "follow the Leader" politics in the 1990's, including the invoking of "closure" to push through the Nishga Treaty before it had undergone a thorough debate in the Legislature, because Glen Clark thought it was, "the right thing to do." Gordon Campbell vigorously protested that then, even though the "pro" vs. "con" split was much closer on that issue than on the HST.

We've had enough of that. We don't elect a "President" when we have an election up here. We vote for people whose first job is to "represent" us, and from whose number will be selected a Premier and his Cabinet. Those officials, who are "advisors" to the Crown, hold office so long as they hold the confidence of the majority of the Members of the Legislature. Whose job is to ensure that they follow the "will of the People." The Liberal MLAs are clearly failing to follow the "will of the People" on this issue.

So we're just to turn a blind eye to that, and rest secure in the knowledge that "Fearless Leader" knows best? Just like they do in North Korea, or they did in Nazi Germany? Climb down off your horse, cowboy, walk up to the front of the room, and wake up to what's happening here.

Socredible, I am a right winger. No doubt about it. I also am a believer in our system.

Yes, if the wing nut James, was the Premier of the Province, and she wants to do what she think is best for the province, and shows no evidence of Personal gain because of the change, than we must abide by it.

I would rather support this system, instead of becoming a banana republic of BC. Where nothing happens, and eventually we all become peasants, trying to sell green trinkets to visitors.

As far as you mentioning North Korea and Nazi Germany and what ever else that fear mongers are trying to relate this too is just an evidence of how desperate and ignorant you are for following blindly your Anti HST Leader. Are we starving a nation to feed the military, are we outright practicing genocide. Not to the best of my knowledge, so where in your argument can you substantiate your claims to use this comparison, or is it a pure evidence of the blind leading the blind.

Open your eyes, we get rid of one tax and introduce another tax. No body is profitting from it, the money gets thrown into the process machine and it gets redistributed, and in return we get health care, schools, roads, social care, and livelihood.

"As far as you mentioning North Korea and Nazi Germany and what ever else that fear mongers are trying to relate "...

I'm toally in agreement. Whenever I see someone relate something innocuous to Nazi Germany, I pretty much discount everything they have to say after that.

MrPG,

you know whats funny, I get chastised because I tell it like it is, I support the HST and it will help my business and I have no intention of cutting my prices or rates because of it.

Simple black and white.

Then we have the fear mongers, if you go back to the beginning of their arguments it was all about what it was going to cost THEM. Now its about your grandmother, Nazi Germany and North Korea are their causes.

I find that pretty ironic. To bad they cant be men and tell it like it is rather than resorting to fear mongering, half truths and down right lies.

Agreed. I support the process behind the anti-HST petition and the people who want to make it their cause.

It's too bad that many people on the anti-HST side of the fence can't afford the same courtesy to people who might be pro-HST and have to resort to worn out cliches and fear tactics to silence those who might be in disagreement with them.

MrPG

I am very disappointed in the Anti-HST campaigns education of the public. I am amazed at how many people I talk to on the street who feel that if the 10% of signatures are recorded the tax will be eliminated.

Sad, truly sad.

What I am most curious about in all of this, What Mr Vanderzalm plans on doing with all his new publicity once this dies down. Does he have new political asperations or maybe his wife is going to relaunch her headbands?

Stompin Tom. What is truly sad is your comprehension of the legislation. You should be the last person to talk to anyone about it as you are totally confused.

1st. (Part 1.) The legislation is the HST Extinguishment Act for the Citizens Initiative against the HST in BC

Read and Weep. The Agreement titled ""The Comprehensive Integrated Tax Coordination Agreement" between the Government of BC and the Government of Canada establishing an HST in BC is hereby extinguished and of no force or effect whatsoever. (2) For greater clarity, the HST is hereby extinguished in BC

(Part 11.) A Provincial Sales Tax (PST) of 7% with the same applications and exemptions as at June 30th 2010 shall be reinstated as the only sales tax in BC for the raising of Revenue for Provincial Purposes.

(Part 111)
(1) This Act shall be effective retroactively as of June 30th 2010

If the required number of signatures are collected Ie; 10% of the registered voters in all 87 ridings in BC and vetted by Elections BC, then the Government is compelled to put this legislation on the floor of the legislature and have a vote on it, or they can return it to Elections BC and have it go to a referendum.

Is this so difficult to understand. If the above does not mean **recind** to you then what the hell does it mean.

How the Government deals with this legislation will be determined as it works its way through the system, however at the end of the day if there are sufficient signatures they will have to deal with it.

With 85% of the people opposed to this tax one would think that even the dumbest of the Liberals would be able to figure out that they have a serious problem on their hands, and they better deal with it.

Stompin Tom, He Spoke, and Mr PG should meet for a beer or a coffee along with a copy of the HST Extinguishment Act, and see if between the three of them they can comprehend it.

I think they already comprehend it all too well, Palopu. And what's happening is beginning to worry them. Their "boy" in Victoria has a growing problem on his hands, and it isn't going to go away anytime soon.

He's already calling in his markers, getting his big time supporters, like the Truck Loggers Assn.'s Dave Lewis, to put their names on some pro-HST spin.

What they don't seem to comprehend is something that applies to any "few" who hope to profit at the expense of the "many". Through politics, as well as to those who play the stock market. "Bulls win, Bears can win, but Pigs always lose."

When the pendulum of ideology swings too far to the "Right", as it's doing with the HST, it'll only swing back too far to the "Left" afterwards.

And when it does, all their present rhetoric about how Gordon Campbell is so "courageous", and a real "visionary" , a real "leader" who knows "what's right for the Province", will be all forgotten in THEIR bleating to restore genuine "democracy", with "representative" as well as "responsible" government.

Now look at what that's going to mean. Right now the HST helps the "few" and hurts the "many". When the next general election comes, if we are NOT successful with our Petition and what follows from that beforehand, there will likely be a change of government.

The HST will still be in place, and still hurting the "many", only the new government, if it's the NDP, (which seems likely ~ if the BC Conservatives make much headway provincially they'll split the vote on the Right, and the NDP will have a cakewalk straight into office), won't remove it. They'll tell us they would, but they "need the money". To do "what's right for the Province". To fund all those underfunded "services", and 'needed' new ones, too.

But they'll do the next best thing. They will exact 'taxable' vengence on those "few" who were seen to have benefitted from the HST.

The "shift" in taxes it has put on us all personally, we, and you, we'll be stuck with.

Only there'll be another "shift", of some other taxes that'll hit YOU the hardest. And you'll squeal like stuck pigs when you're stuck to pay them, and the big savings under HST are all clawed back.

Your best chance to avoid that situation is to support the Petition.

No one on our side is saying that the PST, as it is, is 'perfect', or that it should be 'set in stone' forever. There are measures that could be, and no doubt should be, taken within it to make it fairer and less costly to businesses, so we're not disadvantaged inordinately through it.

But the HST, and the way it has been forced upon us, is certainly not the answer. And what will surely follow next election, if the Petition process fails, will not be the answer either.

So, once again I ask, you guys spreading the same fear mongering, half truths and down right lies when you go door to door?

You forgot to mention Grandmothers, Nazi Germany and North Korea this time, you must have been pressed for time.

Once again Palopu and socredible, I support the HST and have no qualms with it. I find it rather sad that you can not accept the fact that others have differing opinions than yours, the fact that you now try to resort to threats is down right laughable.

Palopu, as I posted earlier, here is the link for the initiate, maybe you should spend some time reading it, allot of useful information.

http://www.elections.bc.ca/index.php/referenda-recall-initiative/initiative/hst/

I agree Socredible, except that I suspect that if the Conservatives, or some other Party with any credibility should come on the scene then both the Liberals and NDP will be impacted. We could end up with some kind of a coalition.

Insofar as the HST goes it is a stupid tax in every sense.

1. It penalizes people who purchase goods.

2. The Government gets a free ride. It makes them no more than commission agents. They sit on their fat arses and the Federal Government cuts them a cheque every three months or so.

3. If you really want to see taxation without representation, then bring in the HST. It would be an endless supply of money, without any fiscal responsibility attached. It would also not be transparent, and we may or may not know how much is transferred to BC from the Feds.

4. Making taxation and the accumulation of revenues easy for a Government is akin to giving your PIN number to the criminal element.

5. We need to find a way to reduce the amount of money paid to Governments, and make them more accountable.

Governments now have access to money from the following;
1. Police Tickets
2. ICBC Revenues
3. Gambling Revenues
4. Gas Tax Revenues
5. Carbon Tax Revenues
6. Income Tax Revenues
7. PST Revenues
8. Stumpage Fees
9. Oil and Gas Royalties
10. User fees for parks, etc;
11. BC Hydro/Powerex/
12. Federal Government in Transfer Payments.
13. Cigerette and Alcohol taxes


The list goes on. If anyone thinks they do not have sufficient revenues to run the Province they should get a head check/.

A recent article in the Vancouver Sun stated that the Government was putting a cap on the salary of the CEO of BC Ferries. Annual salary was capped at $1 million. He apparently gets paid twice as much as the CEO's of ICBC, WCB, etc'; So we can assume that other CEO's are getting paid $500,000.00 per year plus benefits. Considering that there are about 25 Government entities,like BCTC, BCHydro, BCUC, WCB, BC Transit, etc;etc; We can safely assume that salaries and benefits for these entities costs about $15 Million per year, and we havent even got to the Government yet.

NO HST. SIGN THE PETITION.

Posted by: Stompin Tom on April 29 2010 9:09 PMAs for my comment about whining, lets see:

Eagleone, constructive comments.

Denaljo, whinning

camoose, whinning

socredible, whinning


I rest my case.

There is a major difference between discussing a story or event or just hit and run whinning."

Stompin Tom, wilfully bending over beside his pal MrPG. Can you say Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

MrPG says, "This site is full of people who can't deal with the fact that someone might have a different view than they do"

I don't think thats the case at all MrPG. The fact is that there are many people posting here on this site that care that their own gov't is treating them with utter disrespect and these people are trying to make a stand against this dictator and his cronies.

In fact, it is you and your pal Stompin that can't deal with the idea your masters have screwed themselves this time and their time has come. You both sound exactly like Gordo and Colin baby trying to convince us all how good for us it will be when the taxes that business once paid will now be taken out of the pockets of the working person in this province. Anyone that stands along side this group of gangsters isn't long for the unemployment line. Perhaps pitchforks and torches will work first, who knows?

Stompin and MrPG have all the answers as to why the HST will be good for us. They must because they are all for it.

Perhaps they can spell it out to the rest of us exactly how the HST is going to be good for me my family and my neighbours?

Stompin Tom:-"So, once again I ask, you guys spreading the same fear mongering, half truths and down right lies when you go door to door?"
------------------------------------------
Stompin, people are not waiting for the canvassers to go door to door. They are seeking out places where they can sign the Petition, all on their own. And if there's any objections heard, it's that there aren't more places available (yet) where they can go to sign it.

The canvassers are all volunteeers. They're not there to make a sales pitch; they assume you know the issues and have made up your own mind. They just ask if you want to sign, and if you don't, that is your free choice. As it should be.

There's no intimidation, or need for any rudeness on either side during that process. If you say "No," they go, quite likely with an apology for bothering you, and that's it.

If you're convinced the HST will be of benefit to you in your business after all we've said against it, and want it, so be it. I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

Both Palopu, and I, and many others have tried to tell it as we see it. And to us, a great deal of the pro-HST spin coming from the government appears far more in the way of "half-truths, downright lies, and fear- mongering" than any of the concerns we've raised. Perceptions vary, we all have our biases. And we're going to continue to call them on what we see as purposefully misleading information.

For me, in my business, the HST will do more harm than good. I think there are better ways to tax, I don't like where the money's going, or how it's been implemented, and my feeling is this is just the beginning of further taxes along the same lines.

Palopu has made his points about waste and bloated payouts in government spending, and the lack of the kind of accountability that we used to have. I agree with him, fully, but I also think the problem is much larger than just that.

We have a government that is fond of comparing itself to a business. With a surplus Budget being the equivalent of a good year's Profit, and a sign of good management. The comparison is meaningless. The "accounting" is NOT the same ~ there is nothing comparable in government to a business's Balance Sheet, where profit is finalised as an increase in Assets over Liabilities. Not "cash" receipts minus "cash" disbursements.

There should be. And what it would likely show, if there were, is that we are not getting anywhere near a true picture of overall government finances, and we're taxed far heavier than we need to be to provide the services we receive. And that should change before we're subjected to any new tax exactions or "shifts" that may be temporarally good for some, but ultimately far more damaging to all.

"Stompin Tom, wilfully bending over beside his pal MrPG. Can you say Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!! "

Pretty weak. Not that I would expect much from you.

Stompin says, "
I am very disappointed in the Anti-HST campaigns education of the public. I am amazed at how many people I talk to on the street who feel that if the 10% of signatures are recorded the tax will be eliminated"

Strange, I have yet to talk to anyone anywhere that thinks what you've stated Stompin. In fact, on the contrary, all those I've talked to are hoping we get enough signatures to allow us to continue the fight to halt the HST from being rammed down our throats.

You see Stompin it's these little lies you spread around such as this one, that shows everyone what you are all about.

It got you outta bed to respond!

So tell us MrPG how is the HST going to be good for me?

Thats the only thing you ever reply to PG. Why do you never answer my questions and always do the politician thing?

Dragonmaster,

you should take up motivational speaking.

Dragonmaster,

The HST will allow you to continue collecting your welfare, then you can continue to buy more beer.

"Why do you never answer my questions and always do the politician thing?"

Are you someone I should answer to? Sorry to burst your bubble, but I couldn't care less about your 'questions'.

Get over yourself.

No, no one can force you to answer anyones questions PG, but answering questions is a normal part of any discussion. When you make statments then refuse to answer questions it says much about you.

Niether of you two can answer the questions because you don't have the answers. You are nothing more than sheep.

All you do is repeat yourselves over and over and over.

Tell us how the HST will be good for me, my family and my neighbours.
You keep telling us how it's the best thing since sliced bread yet you can't produce the reasons why. Therefore your no better than the Scambell Liebrals.

I will tell you why it won't be good for me, my family and my neighbours. Because it will take more money than ever out of our pockets and it will no longer be coming from yours. Do you two really think if you say the same thing over and over and over again it will become true? Good luck with that.

Dragonmaster,

HST is good for my business and therefor good for me. Its not good for you? Thats to bad, welcome to the world of small business where we get hit with a tax increase or new fee pretty much weekly.

What part dont you understand? I would like you to quote where I have tried to convice you or anybody else what to do? Ill call out the BS, but I havnt campaigned either way. Please show me where I have.

Funny thing, if it was good for you and not good for me, I doubt you would be spending any time trying to help me out.

The Liberal Government has on a number of occasions been approached by Newspapers, the HST Campaign, and individual people writing letters, asking for a list of things that the HST applies on.

To date, they have not supplied any information. All they have done is give some exceptions like **baby diapers** some childrens clothes etc; Nor have they given an accurate account of the amount of money they and the Federal Government will generate on a yearly basis because of this tax.

Do you think they will ever give up this info?? I dont.

The big tax shift few are noticing is the effect on Federal Income Tax take from BC Companies under the HST.

Under PST the "capital costs" of new plant and equipment are taxed at 7% and the money goes 'one-way' to Victoria.

This tax then forms an additional part of those "capital costs", which will be "expensed" as 'depreciation' against annual Corporate gross income over the expected life-span of the Asset acquired, as allowed by the Canada Revenue Agency.

This is how the business recovers its investment, plus the PST, as its acquisition wears out over time in generating the Firm (hopefully) some profit.

The amount annually taken as a 'depreciation' allowance will be larger because of the inclusion of the PST in the initial "capital costs", and the amount "expensed" against gross income REDUCES the reported 'rate of profit' for the business under the rules and conventions of business accounting.

Which "profit" is what the FEDERAL government (mostly, and only to a minor extent the BC government) charges Income Tax on.

When the HST comes in, the 7% now charged on those "capital costs" through PST becomes an Input Tax Credit, and the business gets it back. Which lowers its "capital costs", (advantageously, short term, to the business), BUT it also lowers the amount that can be taken in 'depreciation' expense against the Firm's annual gross income, RAISING its reported 'rate of profit'. AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S INCOME TAX TAKE ON IT.

This has been estimated to be a $ 2 billion PER YEAR additional Income Tax take from BC companies that'll go tho the FEDERAL government. Against a ONE-TIME $ 1.6 billion 'bribe' to the Campbell government from Ottawa to bring in the HST.

This is money that leaves BC and goes straight to OTTAWA. It is 'lost' to the BC economy in exactly the same way the money our 'brilliant' Premier sent to Germany to pay for three new ferry boats, that could have, and should have, been built here in BC, was 'lost' to our economy. Where is the advantage to BC? Tell me, Stompin, and He spoke, and Mr. PG, and all you other unconvinceable Liberal die-hards, I'd really like to know. So would we all.

To Dragonmaster: Stompin Tom has pretty much spelled it out over and over, but you don't want to hear what he or others have to say. I have many friends in business who say that HST is good for them.

Those businesses employ people and if the HST makes them more competitive to be able to retain or even hire new employees, then that's enough for me.

This might be hard to understand, but sometimes, it's not all about you. You have to look at the bigger picture.

I'm sure you'll have some snappy comeback or some pithy statement about the "scambell lieberals", but as you hopefully have figured out by now, I'm not interested.

socredible,

your theory on the matter is basically correct, but also very naive.

1st lets look at the 2 billion dollar figure of extra taxation you state, the savings to BC business has been esitmated at 1.9 billion with the HST, so your saying every bit of savings goes to "capital costs" Not true.

2nd using your 2 billion figure you claiming that Federal tax on small business is 100% of profit? Once again not true. By this I mean if there is a 1.9 billion dollar savings to be had, and all business posts an extra 1.9 billion in profit, 100% of that 1.9 billion does not go to taxation, only the Federal portion as outlined in that tax year.

Your figures once again are nothing more than half truths and fear mongering. I would like to see where you came up with this figures, are they from your own bias or is there a think tank somewhere who has come up with this and has a breakdown with some credibility.

Now we can take a look at the day to day running of a business. I will use mine for an example, when we are getting close to tax time I sit down with my accountant and we look things over, if it is determined that my tax rate is getting to high we make adjustments, most common is the purchase of items which will be consumed in the future but can be purchased in this tax year. A 2nd step is the simple purchase of RRSP's.

A 3rd step is very simple, if I am going to buy a capital asset and I know the PST is now recoverable, I may chose to buy a slightly better asset and reinvest that amount into a better quality capital asset, in turn totaly negating your argument. I dont need PST as a write off, there are many, many ways to acheive write offs without it. That is a very naive assumption on your part.

What you give no credit to in your "story" is that as businesses we have options, there are ways for us to manipualte to the best of our legal means our year end taxation. In your exercise you persume we are all a bunch of idiots and will not adjust.

Once again nothing more than a very biased account of what "could" happen on your part, not taking into consideration that as business owners we actually have options and the ability to adjust.

socredible,

another very simple strategy to eliminate your theory.

Repair and maintenance.

I will have a $12,000 savings on my upcoming purchase in July of this year. If I so chose I can take the savings and invest it into repair and maintenance of other capital investments achieving a 100% write off of that money while improving my equity base by keeping my other assets in better shape.

A very simple strategy already used by most.

Stompin, you continue to look at it from only your own narrow perspective in regards to the tax savings the HST will allow you in your business, and how it will increase your 'profit'.

Even if you are successful in implementing various strategies in mitigating the increased take of Federal Income Tax on this profit, your employees , and the employees of every other business that benefits from HST in BC are going to look at it from THEIR perspective.

And what do you think they'll see? A whole bunch of goods and services have just gone up 7% in price to them if they want, or need, to access them.

Their "income", from which this price increase will come courtesy of the HST, hasn't increased. In effect, they've taken a cut in pay. But you're getting an increase.

You've already told us you don't intend to lower your prices, and most other businesses, faced with all the endless government imposed payouts and fees and regulations we're all now faced with , won't be willingly lowering theirs either.

So what do you think your employees, and all those other employees at all those other Firm's similarly benefitting "at their expense" will do?

Just say, "Oh, guess that's the way it is", and go on as before? I don't think so. It's too big a hit, on top of a whole host of other big hits, that've been recently applied against their incomes. They'll want "higher pay".

They're not "financially" sophisticated people, Stompin. Not most of them. They don't consider that an increase in pay flows through into prices, raising them, too. Following which they'll be seeking another raise in pay, to try to 'catch up' to something they really never CAN catch up with. And all the while leaving in the wake of this whole process the carcasses of their "former" employers.

Who benefits, Stompin? The guy like yourself who defers tax by buying RRSPs? What happens when those prices go up, and you have to draw out those RRSPs at a faster rate than anticipated to meet them and still live? And the tax man is right there to get back what you thought was going to be permanently deferred?

The HST is a stupid tax. There are far better ways to raise revenues without putting us all back on that smae old 'inflationary' treadmill that'll be so costly to us ALL to get back off of.

socredbile

I have proven every one of your business is going to hurt scenario's wrong, I suggest you just give up on that end of things.

You have told me in the past that you run your own business, but I might suggest you change who your getting your advise from because from a business point of view it is horrible.

The simple matter of fact is HST is a very good tax for business in general and very good for my business specifically.

Here is a scenario for you.

I take that $12,000 I am about to save and I reinvest it into my capital assets by means of repair and maintenance to upgrade them. That means I spend $12,000 at other peoples business that I may not have previously spent. Then that business owner has increased his revenue stream by $12,000 and it allows him to use that cash flow to reinvest in his business. The place he spends that $12,000 on also now get a cash injection they would not previously have had. The cycle goes on and on.

So if every small business out there takes the extra capital they have from the HST and reinvest it in their own business we will suddenly see 7% growth, and when you have growth in business you get added employment and the ability for business to infact look at wage increases for those deserve them.

When I look at wages for my employees, I do not look at cost of living, I do not look at how they spend their money. What I look at is their value to my business. If an employee is a valuable asset and my business is making money, that employee will be rewarded with what I feel he deserves. If he doesnt like it, he has the right to move on, but we both know and understand that, if he is an asset to my company I dont want him to move on, therefor I have to be fair with my pay. Its very simple.

Another very simple fact, in order for business to look at wage increases for their employee's, they must be profitable or the business will fail.


You have not yet anywhere in your equations factored in that there will also be a HST credit for approx 1.1 million people in the family, the ones who need it most.

By the way,

in the end I hope business's in BC pay an extra 10 Billion in Federal tax next year.

Why?

Because if Business is paying Federal income tax they are successful. IF we end up paying an extra 10 billion in Federal income tax we will be the most successful province in the history of Canada.

I honestly hope it all works out for you the way you feel it will, Stompin. Even though I'm sure it won't. There are many flaws in your reasoning, particularly as it applies to the economy as a whole, and these will become apparent soon enough in the period the HST is in force. Which hopefully won't be long ~ before those of us opposed to it are successful in having it rescinded.

Well Stompin Tom, if a simple investment in your personal RRSP can offset your companies tax burden, your company must not be that much bigger than your personal lifestyle.

Therefore Stompin, all this money that is going to be saved from your tiny business will probably be HSTed in your personal expenditures.

Here I thought you were the Canadian Bill Gates.

Well Stompin Tom, if a simple investment in your personal RRSP can offset your companies tax burden, your company must not be that much bigger than your personal lifestyle.

Therefore Stompin, all this money that is going to be saved from your tiny business will probably be HSTed in your personal expenditures.

Here I thought you were the Canadian Bill Gates.

Well Stompin Tom, if a simple investment in your personal RRSP can offset your companies tax burden, your company must not be that much bigger than your personal lifestyle.

Therefore Stompin, all this money that is going to be saved from your tiny business will probably be HSTed in your personal expenditures.

Here I thought you were the Canadian Bill Gates.

lost it all,

judging by your ability to absorb what is being discussed its not hard to see why you "lost it all".

Lets come back to something, Stompin, the difference between the way you, and I and others like us who have small businesses perceive things vs. the way those who run large businesses do.

To us, the chief value of employing an accountant, to use his professional expertise on our books, is to save us tax.

We may also use his services in making preparations to secure Bank financing, such as preparing a business plan, or doing a pro-forma financial statement, and such like, but it is keeping what we've earned from the taxman that is usually our main reason for needing his talents.

It's been said, somewhat facetiously, that a good accountant is a guy who can save you enough in tax to almost cover his fee. And the person that said that was obviously thinking of small businesses.

For a large business, however, the main function of the accountant is somewhat different. He tries to minimise exposure to tax there, too, but his chief purpose is to ensure that the firm always has maximum access to Bank credit.

We, in our 'small' businesses, will generally expand them to a level where we feel reasonably secure and comfortable with what we're doing, and stop. There comes a point where, to us, further growth simply means more headaches, and the risk doesn't seem like it justifies the reward. So we concern ourselves then with maintaining the optimum status quo, once that point is reached.

But a large business doesn't operate quite the same. It has to grow, endlessly, and to do it it must constantly have access to greater amounts of Bank credit. It uses the "rules and conventions" of double -entry cost acccountancy in a different way than we do to get it.

For you, you can take the $ 12,000 saving in tax the HST will give you and upgrade your other assets. It'll likely be charged as an expense against your gross income entirely in the year you spend it, reducing your taxable income for that year.
That gives you a double advantage over what you had under PST.

For the large company, though, with a necessity to continually access more credit to keep growing, taxes and repairing equipment are entirely secondary to boosting its ability to "borrow" more, to fund its endless growth.

These companies will scrap existing plant and equipment, often years ahead of it ever being worn out, rather than routinely repair it to keep it up. The reason being is that this allows them to "stretch out" the "expensing" of this new equipment over a much longer period of time through 'depreciation'. Rather than to have to take repair and maintenance charges against their income in the year they're made.

This increases their annual reported "rate of profit" in accounting, and enables them to access more Bank credit for further acquisitions and expansion, since the 'principal' of every business Bank loan is amortised from "profit". And a larger reported "profit" means easier access to larger loans. The HST assists this process still further, and it will greatly increase the speed of "corporate concentration" that we have continually witnessed, as the large get ever larger, and 'competiton' is increasingly eliminated.

Soon , the large firms, no matter what business they dominate, are able to dictate to their suppliers, or those who contract services to them, like they were God Himself. And they do already, they're doing that now. This is neither a healthy, nor a sustainable situation for any economy that is supposed to be based on 'free-enterprise'. It trends to 'monopoly', which is bad enough, but beyond that there is a fatal flaw in this whole process, which, left uncorrected, will ruin all our businesses, large and small alike.

This flaw could be easily corrected, and its correction would go a long way towards making the "figures", those numbers with "$" signs in front of them, accurately REFLECT the FACTS they are at present constantly mis-representing. The HST, or any other tax, cannot address this problem. In its case, overall, it'll only accentuate it. And those who see it as a solution, to anything, long term, are deluding themselves.