Some one should start a sign me off of the sign on list.

Pat Bell needs to understand that he was elected to serve the people of this province.

Perhaps if politicians appeared to be focused on providing service to the public that elected them (not just big business), then people might be more open to listening to them.

I don't know how we fix what things. But right now most people do not want to hear anything the politicians have to say, and most politicians do not want to hear anything the people have to say.

Well, what ya want running our province.... a bunch school teachers.

You know what they say,... Those who can, do, Those who can not, teach.

VZP = Vander Zalm Party. Ironically a social credit remake. Hmmmm, seems a bit scary. I think, the next Liberal leader will be a better choice.

Exactly right Dan.
Pat Bell does need to learn that he works for the voters who elected him.
Not his arrogant leader or his party.
He knows what his consituents told him they wanted him to do, and that was vote against the HST.
He chose not to do that, and so did the rest of his party.
There will be a price to pay for that.
He also says that the HST will help the forest industry in B.C.
Great Pat,wonderfull,...but show me where it says the taxpayers have to subsidize that out of their pockets, over and above what they are already being taxed,which is plenty!
The government doesn't need MORE tax from us,they need to quit wasting it,particularly in the lower mainland.
And the Liberals under Gordon Campbell sure as hell have done that!
People in the north were given no say in the Olympics.
None.
And yet when they spent what we already gave them,they come back to us with another bullsh**t plan to take even more from us with HST to cover the debt.
And they don't even have the balls to tell us how much that is.
All this after lying to us that there would be no HST.
Nice try Pat Bell,but your party is done like dinner.
All because you guys chose not to listen to the people of B.C.
See you at the polls,but don't worry,your fat pension is safe.

"People in the north were given no say in the Olympics.
None."

Remember, the Olympic bid was started by Glen Clark and the NDP.

No matter, let the whining continue.

I have to agree with Andyfreeze on most of his points except the fact that I don't believe the liberals are toast.Three years is a long time and people in this province either forget or they simply don't care.I mean if an employee,such as our government screwed up as many times as they have,that employee would have been fired long ago.the liberals seem to have nine lives and I don't believe an opposition led by Carol James can beat them.I think the liberal mantra is hear no evil,see no evil,believe no evil,and just keep spewing your crap about how great the HST is no matter what.Yes, I am sick of listening to these idiots,and I have endure three more years of it,maybe more.I have lived in BC all my life and love this Province,but these guys are making it hard to want to stay.I know some of you will say,so leave,don't let the door hit you on the way out,i just saved you from having to type it.

A note to all the Liberal-haters out there:

If you believe the NDP is coming in (afer they are 'toast' as you put it) and reducing taxes and cutting spending, I have some bad news for you. History would indicate the opposite will happen.

The HST will seem like nothing compared to what the NDP can do.

I don't think this is a party issue, this is a tax issue....
yes... it will help business...
NO!...it won't help the average joe...
a bad tax is a bad tax regardless who instigates it...

Gordon Campbell should folow the example set by Gordon Brown. Good bye to both Gordons! This will improve the Liberals image in British Columbia.

Actually He spoke, your quote is from George Bernard Shaw, but I after reading your post I wouldn't expect you to know that.

"Well, what ya want running our province.... a bunch school teachers.

You know what they say,... Those who can, do, Those who can not, teach."

What has this got to do with the HST article? Did I miss something? I take it you have an issue with school teachers. I'm assuming that you were self educated.

"Minister of Forests and Range Pat Bell says there still needs to be discussion on this issue..."
------------------------------------------

The time for 'discussion' is BEFORE a thing like the HST is made law. Why wasn't there any discussion then, in the proper place for such a discussion, the BC Legislature?

Yes,MrPG...the Olympic bid was started by the NDP under Glen Clark,so I guess all those who thought they were such a great thing for B.C.actually owe Glen Clark and the NDP a debt of gratitude?
The unforunate part is that the NDP did not build the games, and they did not run them.
They did not pump an unknown amount of our taxes into a big party for politicians.
They also did not spend a million bucks of taxpayers dollars on tickets to hand out to their "friends".
I could go on,but what's the point.
Oh wait...the fact that the NDP started us on the road to the games IS irrellevant...that's the point!

The HST is a Federal Government initiative so where is all the crying and finger pointing at Harper and Jay Hill and the rest of the Conservative hacks? It's only a matter of time (short time) that all provinces will have the HST (Alberta too when the oil runs out). The Federal Government benefits from the HST much more than the provinces because they collect ALL the taxes and earn the interest on a very large sum of money before they dole it back to the provinces. Major revenue and power grab for the Feds, but nobody seems to care, too busy thinking that Pat Bell and other MLAs actually have anything to say about it.

You're right, BC Racer, it's a TAX ISSUE. NOT a Party issue.

There are people from right across the whole political spectrum who are opposed to the HST and want it rescinded. And are all united in this common cause and working to make that happen.

Some don't like the tax itself, others the way in which it was brought in.

Some of us see it as a surrender of Provincial sovereignty that, once gone for any length of time, will be extremely difficult to reclaim. And, out of our hands Provincially, impossible to control.

ALL of us will feel its effects in a further reduction of our disposable incomes.

Some businesses that export will benefit; and the larger the business the greater the likelihood of a still greater proportional benefit to that business.

Those of us who have businesses serving the domestic market will suffer from a fall off in sales as a greater portion of our customers' incomes are removed in tax. To those customers, it's the equivalent of a cut in pay. To say it will lead to lower prices is ludicrous. The only way that'll happen is when more and more businesses have Closing Out Sales, and exit the field they're in, once and for all.

ALL businesses will suffer when there is a backlash for higher wages as a result of the hits on incomes from this tax. That is certain.

This will push up costs further, and any fancied "competitive advantage" the HST might enable in export markets will be quickly lost.

It is a stupid tax. And a proper 'discussion', held before its introduction as law, would have revealed that.

No one on the anti-HST side has said that the PST, as it was formerly constituted, was perfect. There are undoubtedly things in it which should have, and could have, been changed. There are ways in which it could have been made fairer for businesses and consumers alike. Why wasn't the initiative to do this taken?

Why has a BC government surrendered our sovereignty in this area of taxation without even bringing the proposal before the Legislature, let alone the People? And, perhaps most importantly, WHAT'S IN STORE FOR US NEXT? For the HST, if not rescinded, will certainly NOT be the last tax we'll bear.

Like a garbage bear, this government will just keep coming back for more. Those who don't want to shoot the bear had better join us in removing what he's become too accustomed to getting an easy meal from. Make an effort to sign the Petition if you haven't already done so. Even if we're over the top in your riding, the more names we get the greater the chance the voice of the People will finally be heard.

Look on the bright side, folks. We are doing our part in saving the world by paying a carbon tax. It is "revenue neutral". Didja notice? Dion would be proud!

"You know what they say,... Those who can, do, Those who can not, teach."

I prefer, "those who can, do, those who cannot, preach."

There is a considerable difference between those who teach and those who preach. At least, if it is done well, there is an increase in knowledge involved in the former.

In the case of the latter, it is merely "listen to me, I am right".

Pat Bell is beyond beleif. Does he really think that anyone will buy his BS. Of course the HST is good for business, that is why they brought it in. The same as the GST.

The GST replaced the 13.5% Manufacturers tax on business, and was introduced to make business in Canada more competitive. The HST in being implemented to YUP make business in BC more competitive. This is a 20.5% decrease in taxes to business (primarily exporters) to make them more competitive. This 20.5% has or will be transferred to Canadian consumers as a tax shift.

Now for those who think that there will be any benefit from this tax I suggest that you do not have a bloody clue. In fact I suggest that you did not even know that the GST was to replace the manufacturers tax. I suspect that you do not know that any major exporter in Canada does not pay one penny in GST, or HST as they get tax credits for everything they export.

I wouldnt be surprised if Pat himself doesnt know what the hell is going on.

Also for those who care. This bloody HST was brought in by the Liberals not the Conservatives, and has been in effect in the Eastern Provinces since about 1991. So it is nothing new. Who knows how much of this tax will be kept by the Federal Government and how much will be transferred to the Provinces?? Certainly no one who posts on this site.

Anyone who thinks that the HST will remain at 12% or be reduced is a bloody fool. The VAT Value Added Tax, which is another way of saying HST Harmonized Sales Tax in Greece in going to be increased from 21% to 23%. That bloody country is a basket case, and part of the reason is because of high taxes and incomes, and low production.

If you want the same for this Country just keep raising taxes, and paying big dollars for non productive employees, and politicians, bankers, CEO's etc; and you will get there.

We need to stop all tax increases, and get these Governments to live within their means.

Even those who support the HST (God knows why) should realize that 400,000 signatures, and more coming in every day is a significant number, and it means very simply that the Government better start listening to the people.

Dont get side tracked by politics. We can deal with who gets into power after the Government deals with this tax issue. They would love to see this issue become a them or us issue. Splitting the voters is one thing, however they will not be able to split people who are opposed to this tax, because they come from all walks of life.

Get out and sign the petition and let your voice be heard.

Next stop for the HST...15 percent.
Believe it.
That might just be enough to convince all the pro-HST supporters that they have been had...but I doubt it.
Wait for it.

Pat Bell wants to have a 'discussion'? Then lets ask him a question to start the ball rolling.

If we 'export' more than we 'import', are we getting 'richer' or 'poorer'? Think about it.

When we send real wealth out of this country ~ more lumber, more coal, more natural gas, more electricity, more pulp and paper, more copper concentrates, whatever ~ in a greater amount than RECEIVE BACK in ALTERNATE real wealth from some other country, then JUST WHAT *DO* WE RECEIVE BACK TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE?

WE receive INTERNATIONAL 'CREDIT', that's what. But what real good is that to us?

We now have some other country in DEBT to us, but how can we COLLECT on the debt unless we ACTUALLY receive more real wealth back in imports from that country to match what we sent it in exports? Their 'money' is only EFFECTIVE DEMAND for THEIR goods, not ours.

And if we did just that, and spent it all there, what happens?

Do we get to stop working and put our feet up and enjoy all the nice things they're sending us in full 'trade' for what we've sent them? We do NOT.

We scramble our best brains trying to find devious ways to keep their stuff out of here. Just like the Americans and Europeans have already done with our softwood lumber. And at the same time tell everyone they have to become become "more productive", so we can sell them MORE of our real wealth at a still lower price than we were previously getting. Even if we have to work for less and less, through direct pay cuts, or indirect ones through things like the HST, to do it.

Because if thir stuff DOES come in it's going to FURTHER displace the stuff that's made here for sale here, and we'll have even more 'unemployment'.

So we try our best to keep it out. Because to people like Pat Bell, and his cohorts in power, it really doesn't matter if we have to work for nothing, as long as we're ALL 'working'.

Now that happens, but their stuff still does come in. And when the shirt that's made in China for 63 cents displaces the one made in Canada for $6.30, what real benefit is that to the guy who made the Canadian shirt who's now unemployed and doesn't have 63 cents in income with which to buy it?

To say that he couldn't have afforded a Canadian shirt at $ 6.30 FROM THE INCOME HE WAS GETTING IF THAT SHIRT WAS STILL MADE HERE is exactly the point.

He couldn't. He needs an 'augmentation' to his earned income to do that, one that hasn't been 'costed' into the price of that shirt. Because in any modern economy collective CURRENT 'incomes' are now less than collective 'costs' flowing through into prices at the point of final sale.

And it makes every bit as much sense to simply give him that 'augmentation', through rebating the retail price so he CAN afford it using Bank of Canada NATIONAL credit, (so his employer can stay in business and continue to make shirts here), as it does to continue a quest for INTERNATIONAL credit representing debts we can NEVER collect on.

Trade, internationally, should be just THAT. "TRADE". A free exchange of the relative surpluses of one country for the alternate relative surpluses of another. This enables the diversification of 'consumption' in each country, and is mutually advantageous.

What we have now under so-called globalisation is NOT intended to be that kind of 'trade' at all. It's a perverse quest for an EXCUSE for each countries' central Bank to make up a deficiency in domestic purchasing power in EVERY industrialsied countries' economy. It wastes the resources of the world, and forces people to produce more than they can ever consume simply to continue to provide another EXCUSE for giving them an adequate income to afford what they do consume. It can't even really do that anymore. It is NOT sustainable, and can only result in greater misery to all than it will ever alleviate. And the HST is simply one more move towards a type of future that need not be.

Hm, people want healthcare, education, roads, social safety net, etc. etc. and they expect taxes to never go up. There's a disconnect there somewhere.

They should have instituted a rule that said if you didn't vote in the last election, you would be ineligible to sign the petition. It might have been a little tougher to reach the 10% threshold if that were the case.

Mr PG. What the hell are you talking about. How do you know whether or not the people signing the petition voted in the last election. They all have to be registered voters, and I would be willing to bet you that 90% of them voted in the last election.

I cant beleive some of the inane statements you make. What the hell do you base your assumptions on??? Why should it be made tougher to sign the petition. Who brought in the legislation to allow people to petition the Government to make changes??? The bloody Government did., Now that it appears that there is a possibility of success, you and others try to find ways of changing the game plan.


What the hell does healthcare, education, roads, social safety net, et; tc; have to do with the HST. These costs were paid for in the past by taxpayers, and corporations paid their share through the PST. They are now getting a tax break, by eliminating the PST and implementing the HST.

Your question should be. Why are Corportations getting a PST tax break when this money could be used for health care, education, roads, social safety net, etc; ??? Or Why should the average tax payer pay extra tax for benefits that were paid for by Corporations, and are now being shifted.??

Have a nice day.

Mr. PG:-"Hm, people want healthcare, education, roads, social safety net, etc. etc. and they expect taxes to never go up. There's a disconnect there somewhere."
----------------------------------------
There's a very BIG "disconnect there somewhere", indeed, Mr.PG. Only it can't ever be re-connected through increasing taxes.

Every dollar removed from us in taxation is a dollar that's already been 'costed' into the price of some good or service somewhere in the economy. For the very simple reason that 'credit issue' ~ the process by which Banks create the money supply that facilitates Production and moves it through into final Consumption ~ has its alter ego in 'price making'. What is issued in money as 'costs' is taken back and cancelled through 'price'.

The dynamic nature of this process masks the fact that "loans create deposits, and the repayment of those loans cancels those deposits". It is a 'creditary' process. Over 97% of the money supply exists only as "deposit balances", and has no tangible representation in currency, nor does it need to have.

When taxation is imposed BEYOND the actual cost of providing goods and services we access through government, which it IS, (for reasons that have to do with the way that governments do their books), there is a disparity created between collective 'prices' expressed in money, and the amount of purchasing power then available in the hands of the public to meet those prices. Increasing DEBT bridges the gap, while it can.

If the economy could be kept in a condition economists call "quasi-steady state expansion" the system would work indefinitely.

It can NOT be kept in that condition because there is ongoing 'labour displacement' continually going on in EVERY modern indusrtial economy.

This results in collective 'incomes' falling in ratio to the aggregate 'costs of production' continually being impressed into prices at the point of final retail.

When the economy is not fully financially 'self-liquidating' debt becomes unrepayable, first in the private sector, and subsequently in the public one. It's a problem that CAN'T be solved through increased TAXATION. That only makes it worse.

Palopu, don't let your feathers get all ruffled. I was merely making a suggestion (i.e. in the same line of thought as 'if you didn't vote, don't complain'). Sorry if that type of suggestion offends you.

I happen to find a lot of what you say to be inane as well, but I respect your right to your opinion.

Why is it that so many people on this site can't deal with those who might have differing opinions than they do?

Socredible, I agree with most of what you say. However, the cost of everything (including the cost of running government) is going up and the money has to come from somewhere. Either that or slash many of the services people take for granted.

There is a lot of the resentment to the fact the Liberals lied about bringing in the HST when questioned during the last election and then 2 days after the election begin the process to implememt the HST. Also during the election we kept hearing about the read my lips 500 million dollar maximum deficit only to find out 2 months later the deficit would be 5 times that amount. The Liberals projected the image during the election that they were better financial managers than the NDP. As the public found out after the election not only did we find out the Liberals lied about the HST but the size of the deficit was 500% greater than the Liberal forcast. It all really boils down to public backlash over the lies the Liberals used to get re-elected.

This notion that what is best for our forest industry is what is best for us is absolute bull. Lets be clear, the forest industry is not us and not ours and is in no way committed to us Pat.
Making them great returns only serves to have them take these profits and buy out more US forest companies and have them made stonger and compete against what SHOULD be OUR industry.

Secondly just because the forest industry is "business" doesn't mean that all other businesses will benefit the same way Pat.
Labour intensive businesses will be killed when employees demand higher wages as their now meager standards of living will fall below a level which they can afford to buy and own their homes and cars etc.

By the way thanks for the carbon taxes and further increases to it Pat, I suppose that helps make 2x4s cost less too? OH thats right...we pay the carbon taxes so you can transfer that wealth to the big green powerplants that the 2x4 makers own and forever profit from...and as long as we can pay our increased power bills, your corporate friends will just get fatter.

When labour intensive businesses fold up (the ones that rely on domestic sales or providing services) because they cannot afford the labour increases, guess what Pat, employment falls and your few corporate friends supermills won't put a dent in the employment levels needed.

Big deal we will have (actually might have)a very few high paid jobs and corporate wealth transferred to compete against us.

Mr. PG:-"Socredible, I agree with most of what you say. However, the cost of everything (including the cost of running government) is going up and the money has to come from somewhere. Either that or slash many of the services people take for granted."
-----------------------------------------

The money does come from "somewhere", Mr. PG. It comes from the Banks, where it is actually 'made' every time a Bank credits a deposit account FOR ANY REASON.

Most of it is created as loans. Some more whenever a Bank purchases securities ~ government bonds, T-bills, private stocks or bonds, etc.

And a smaller amount is created to pay the Bank's own expenses, including any interest it pays to its depositors.

The system is "creditary" ~ the Bank doesn't wait for the interest on the money it lends to come in BEFORE it spends to meet its own expenses, it spends FIRST and THEN the interest comes in to offset that spending AFTERWARDS.

(If it WASN'T that way, then the common, but totally ridiculous argument of monetary 'cranks', that interest-bearing debt can never be repaid "...because the Banker never created the interest when he created the principal" might hold some credence. It IS that way, and their argument doesn't hold the slightest credence whatsoever. The system is 'creditary', and that's what that means.)

The same is true of every Firm in the economy as a whole, only other Firms 'make' or provide actual goods and services, not money, and so must depend upon the Banks to accomodate their need for a form of credit that is generally acceptable in the community at large as money.

The Government, aside from its core legislative, executive, and judicial functions, can be regarded as a type of Firm to the extent that it also now provides the general public with an array of services and some goods. Only the equivalent to 'price' for much of what it provides is instead 'tax'.

Private businesses, and Crown corporations that manage various government owned businesses, such as BC Hydro, ICBC, BC Ferries, etc., all operate under the rules and conventions of double-entry 'accrual' cost accountancy.

This enables them to spend, on a 'cash-flow' basis, MORE than what they are simultaneously taking back in 'money' through Sales, yet still 'book' a Profit.

For what is spent *today* is "EXPENSED", (delayed in time, through the rules of accounting), against *FUTURE* Sales Revenues ~ the equation for operating Profit being SALES minus "EXPENSE".

And Profit, in that kind of accounting is simply an indication of the correctness of some line of entrepreneurial action. It is NOT analogous to 'cash' received, as it would be in simple, single-entry 'cash' accounting, where it is Revenue minus Disbursements.

But the Government itself, in all the services it DIRECTLY provides us does NOT do its books the same way other Firms do.

Through the use of its Budget, it is essentially operating using a single-entry 'cash' accounting system. Revenues minus Disbursements. In such a system a balanced Budget means that the government is recovering *ALL* its Expenditures in Taxation, including ones for Capital Assets lasting multiple years into the future, IN ONE AND THE *SAME* FISCAL PERIOD.

So the road built this year might last ten years before it needs replacing, and with proper accounting would be paid for in taxes over ten years. But the way things are with a Budget balanced by taxes we're supposed to pay for it all in one year.

No private business could EVER operate this way. The prices we'd be paying, for everything, would be astronomical!

And that is ONE reason why the Taxes we're paying are becoming astronomical. There are others.

And they have to do with the FACT that our entire economy is not, and cannot currently be, fully 'financially' self-liquidating. We can't correct that through taxation ~ the solution can ONLY come from having proper accounting, including periodic 'adjustments' distributed "debt-free" as 'money' to keep the figures accurately reflecting the facts.

The way tax dollars are kited from one level of Government to another, would be a criminal offence if it was tried by an individual.

Who can explain how ICBC can have 9 Billion dollars in investments, and transfer $780 Million dollars to the Government. One would have to think that perhaps we are being charged to much for our Insurance. Does the 9 Billion actually exist, or is it invested in Government bonds, and therefore only exists on paper. If in fact it exists, then why couldnt we use this money to pay down the deficit??

If the CEO of BC Ferrys gets paid $1,000,000.00 per year which is twice as much as CEO's of the other 25 Government entities, which means they get paid $500,000.00 per year plus perks. Maybe we could look at these entities with a VIEW to reducing the cost of running them.

Does anyone have any idea what it costs to run BC Hydro, and its subsidiarys PowerEx, and BC Transmission Corp. I doubt it, but you can rest assured that a lot of money is being pissed away by these dudes. Has anyone noticed who the somewhat new CEO of BC Transmission Corp is. Hmmmmmm. Isnt that interesting.

The list of where dollars could be saved in Government goes on and on. The main reason for increases in taxes is not for the Apple Pie and Ice Cream reasons (Health care and Education) it is because of the huge cost of Government itself, add to that the money wasted by Governments in trying to get re-elected and you begin to see why they want more money.

Most of these running dogs have gotten so fat pigging out at the public trough that they can no longer tie thier shoelaces.

Its time for them to go on a cash starved diet.

Those would all be very good places to look at where spending could be reduced, Palopu. Something that COULD be done, right now, but won't be. And why do we need to pay $ 1,000,000 to the guy who runs BC Ferries anyways, when the only thing he's done was spend $ 7,000,000 to change the colour scheme and logo on the smokestacks?

Palopu, it's been quite a while since I completely agreed with one of your posts, but you hit the nail on the head.

There is a huge amount of waste out there. The problem is that nobody anywhere has the guts to change it.

Change can only start to happen if WE have the 'guts' to demand it. And the best way to do that is to sign the anti-HST Petition. It may not seem like anything important, a futile attempt to undo a "done deal", but it IS important. It's the first step towards getting what's wrong corrected.

"It's the first step towards getting what's wrong corrected."

I'm not sure why you say this. I'm guessing this will all be forgotten in a year or so, and we'll be onto the next thing, whatever that is.

Mr PG It wont be forgotten. If the petition is ignored, or jerked around by the Government then PLAN 2 is RECALL IN THE FALL.

In any event the petition has already had a significant effect on the Government. The general consensus is that Campbell will probably step down late next year, and that any Liberal that voted for the HST does not have a snow balls chance in hell of becoming the Premier or getting elected,.

These arrogant dudes totally misread the public on this issue, and do not have the brains to get out of the hole they have dug for themselves. If they persist with this tax, it is within the realm of possibility that a 3rd Party will rise up and could form some sort of a coalition Government.

Another possibility is a march on Victoria, however being an island this might prove to be difficult, we may just have to have a huge protest in Vancouver that snarls traffic for a few days, and gets the attention of the Government.

In any event it will not be forgotten, I expect that the petition will have in excess of 600,000 signatures by July 5th.

Have a nice day.

No, it won't be forgotten, Mr. PG. What has been forgotten, by Gordon Campbell, is that his job, like that of the leader of any democracy is "...to yield to pressure."

It's OUR job to apply it. And judging by the response to the Petition so far, it IS being applied, and will continue to be applied. Until he, or his successor, is reminded just who is ultimately 'boss'.

We are not trying to tell the government HOW to design a proper taxation system that's fair to all. That is the role of the Legislature, and the people we send down there, and pay very well, to 'represent' us.

They have had their proper role circumvented by the way this tax was introduced.

This negates the long established principle on which democracy itself was established ~ a principle dating back to 1215 in England, with the forced signing of the Magna Carta by a 'tax
and spend' King John ~ that there should be NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

In the case of the Liberal MLAs, to a man (or woman), they have not even uttered one peep of protest over the usurpation of their ability TO 'represent' the people of their respective ridings in their overwhelming opposition to this tax. Not the slightest sound from them that something different is desired, nor a question about what might be made better or fairer for the majority so adversely affected.

It's been "the silence of the lambs" on that side of the House. And they should be utterly ashamed of what they have now been reduced to by their leader. Impotent, gutless sheep.

Whether they agree with a HST exactly as is or not, they surely could not agree with the process used to implement it, the one they, by their silence, have now given tacit consent to.

Nor have our Federal Conservative MPs been listening to their constituents either. Nary a word from any of them regarding whether having a HST was what their constituents wanted. That those constituents were, in the majority, willing and able to 'pay more' to continue to live, for whatever supposed benefit to business this tax is supposed to enable.

Their continued deafness is of great peril for both those Parties. For should the Petiton, in all its cumbersome and awkward requirements fail, or even succeed, and be somehow circumvented by those we've elected, people WILL REMEMBER.

And come next election they'll exact their vengence. Far better, I think, for those we've elected both Federally as Conservatives and Provincially as Liberals to get their ears checked, and find their voices. Before it really is too late for both Parties, and any 'good' they have enabled is thrown out with the 'bad'.