I hope it goes thru, and the socialist get into power.

Lots of unemployment, and cheap houses coming up. Sweet.

Your spin is bogus HE Spoke....

GDP was higher in the 90s....

More employment was created in the 90s

More homes were built in the 90s

More people came to BC in the 90s

People had more disposable money in the 90s

All facts can be confirmed, the decade of Campbell has created a two class society, rich and poor, a handful of rich against millions of poor people getting taxed to death through ..Hydro rates, fuel rates, user fees, cuts in service ....while wages have been stagnant for 15 years.

But He Spoke and Mr. PG think they are wiser than 90% of the public....Go crawl back under your rocks!

I hope it goes thru too & we get a socialist government back then finally the minimum wage will go up and health care & education will get some real funding. I'd rather my tax dollars be for health care & education. I'd even pay more taxes if it went to improve social programs & not corporations & the Olympics.

I heard HST cheques maybe given out to poor people. Sure hope that doesn't include dead people and prisoners again. Like most well intentioned governments have been known to do in the past.

"But He Spoke and Mr. PG think they are wiser than 90% of the public....Go crawl back under your rocks!"

Actually they are doing better than that - if you are going to argue numbers than remember that 90% of the population HASNT signed this petition...

Right-on ! Grant G

10% will speak volumes!

The Petition only needs to collect the verified signatures of 10% of the number of registered voters in each of the Provincial ridings to be successful as an Initiative.

If the Initiative is successful, and the Government then opts for holding a Referendum, I hardly think you're going to get "90% of the population" voting FOR the HST.

Even though the requirements for the passage of the Initiative through a Referendum are quite stringent, I hope the Government opts to go that way, rather than just ordering all the Liberal MLAs to support the HST if it's put to a vote in the Legislature, (and having to watch those sickening sycophants we elected as OUR 'representatives' all play follow the Leader, again, as if none of them are even capable of thinking for themselves).

That way, if it is put to "the People", we'll at least have an accurate indication of just how many British Columbians really do want this tax. And whether the polls, which indicate over 80 % of us DON'T, were correct.

I find it truly sad that we have to undertake such measures to get a Government to LISTEN to the people it's supposed to be serving.

The NDP just happened to be in government during a period of WORLDWIDE economic growth.

Lets look to all the great socialist societies and their success. The Soviet Union, Red China, Greece, Cuba, Portugal.....

Now those are facts that dont lie. Socialist societies live in history books and socialists live in dim basements suites and post on message boards. Capitalism is a crappy system. Its also the best one we have.

Mythoughts. You like most people in BC talk about Health and Education, and how much it costs, and how we need more money for both.

The problem is I dont beleive that you have a clue as to how much money is spent on Health Care or Education in this Province. If you do, then please let us in on the secret.

I think that somewhere along the way you have been convinced that Health and Education has been underfunded and you actually beleive the propaganda.

So answer some questions.

1. How under funded are Health care and Education in BC.

2. Where does the money that is used for Health Care and education come from. Ie; Isnt a large portion of Education paid for on our Municipal Taxes.

3. How much money is transferred every year from the Federal Government to fund Health Care in the Province of BC, how much is transferred for education??

What is the cost of Health care and Education in BC annually and where is the majority of the money spent. On actual heath services, or administration, and salaries.

To keep harping about the cost of Health care and Education without knowing what the actual costs are, or how much is needed to fix the problem, or without suggesting how costs could be reduced, is just parroting information that was thrown out by others.

Interceptor....50% of the elegible voters in BC are not registered. The petition only requires that 10% of the registered voters sign. Most ridings have in excess of 15% of the registered voters signing. Considering that this is halfway through the 90 days allowed to get the signatures this is pretty good. Obviously more people will sign before July 5th. So even though Im not sure what your point is, I suggest that the best you could say is that 35% of the registered voters did not sign the petition. So what????

One of the guiding principles of Socialism is that the "Poor are poor because the Rich are rich". And their solution to that, which never works, and never will, is to try to make the Poor richer by making the Rich poorer.

The underlying premise is a complete fallacy. And it was wrong even way back in the 19th Century when old Karl Marx was writing his 'bible' of Socialist thought, "Das Kapital".

And, because their usually prescribed cure of 're-distribution' through taxation is based on a false premise in the first place , it fails. And only ever succeeds in making EVERYONE poor, and keeping them there.

The Poor are NOT poor because the Rich are rich. They are poor because of the way the financial system currently relates 'Money' itself and 'Prices expressed in Money'. Until that's realised and corrected, Socialist parties like the NDP, even if returned as Government, will only ever be able to 'represent' poverty. And extend it, rather than eliminate it.

Socialist fallacies aside, the thing that always surprises me about those on the Capitalist side is that they go out of their way to try to re-inforce this ridiculous Socialist argument.

Only they do it in reverse. With them it's "we rich would be even richer if the poor were made poorer." So that's what we're going to try to do.

So we have people in business on the pro-HST side already salivating on how much extra they'll prospectively be able to pocket from gaining Input Tax Credits made up of new taxes affecting everyone else.

And expecting the public NOT to buy the Socialist argument? And continue to give them free reign to "get while the getting's good"?

They're the architects of their own coming miseries when the NDP does get elected, purely through the same kind of short-sighted ignorance that permeates that whole utterly hopeless BC Liberal Party.

Sadly, the rest of us, who are not Socialists, but rather recognize that true Capitalism involves the provision of actual goods and services TO ALL in the most efficient manner possible, (in priority to piling up the maximum in "financial return"), have to suffer for their failings.

A common argument made by those on the pro-HST side is that, "Government is just like any other business, it can't spend more than it takes in. If we want continued access to Government provided services like Healthcare and Education, etc., then more tax revenues must be generated, and 'consumption taxes', like the HST are the best way to generate them."

Let's just look at the FIRST part of that. The idea that "Government is just like any other business..."

Assuming this is so, without admitting whether it is or not, then why doesn't "Government" do its books "just like any other business"?

With a proper Provincial Balance Sheet showing ASSETS, LIABILITIES, and CAPITAL?

Now in "any other business", PROFIT is NOT simply an excess of Receipts over Disbursements, as might attend if there were a 'surplus' in the Government's annual Budget.

It IS an increase in ASSETS over LIABILITIES in some fiscal period. Matched, on the right hand side of the Balance Sheet, beneath the LIABILITIES, by a corrsponding increase to CAPITAL account ~ the increased "equity" of the shareholders in that business. From which, if that "equity" is continually growing, "dividends" might periodically be paid.

If, in any fiscal period, the Government's ASSETS are *already* increasing over its LIABILITIES, (as we might well expect they would be, since we DO still seem to be making material progress in BC year by year, which would be impossible if the reverse were true), this would certainly be an indication that there is NO NEED FOR ANY FURTHER TAXATION. The Government is already making what might be analogous to a "profit" in a business from what we've been paying, (and maybe we should have some of that back!)

@ Interceptor, you are not too smart are you....

You want to talk numbers...BC has a population 4 million people...Over 500,000 have signed the petition with almost 7 weeks still to go......

On gross numbers alone counting all the populous, man/woman and children....

4 million divided by 500,000 = 12.5% have signed......

By the time July 5th rolls around the number of signers will be approaching 1 million .....

That my friend is 25%.....

But comparing only registerd voter...There was just under 3 million registered voters...so in actual numbers 17% of all registered voters have signed the petition/initiative so far!

Cheers

Lets talk about the 90s...B.C. was suffering from the Asian flu...The Federal Liberals cut transfers to provinces in a debt cutting measure...

The NDP left a $1.4 billion dollar surplus in 2001....The federal Government restored transfer payments in 2002...

The BC deby was $15 billion dollars when the NDP took power...When they left 10 years later the debt was $28 billion dollars....

Campbell took power in 2001..The debt was $28 billion dollars, he had a $1.4 billion dollar surplus left to him by the NDP....He sold BC Rail for $1 billion dollars...Campbell scooped $750 million dollars from ICBC this year...Plus $250 million dollars from the federal HST bribe...

And after 9 years of Gordon Campbell our BC debt is how much?.......

$55 billion dollars plus $40 billion in power buying contracts with IPPs....

So who was the better managers?

You PAB talk about socialism...Like in the USA...Privitize the profits and bail out the corporate thieves for about $2 trillion dollars...Tommy Douglas was voted the greatest Canadian...He brought us public healthcare...The NDP brought us UIC....
And from what I understand many in Prince George not only use the public healthcare, many are on UIC...Those damn socialists!

How dare they help the average person.

I like your posts Grant G.
I signed the anti-HST petition. The Liberal gov't lied about selling BC Rail, lied about the HST and has another carbon tax increase upcoming.
Campbell and his crowd are arrogant enough to believe they can peddle any lie and people will forget. I hope they're wrong.

Actually my point was only that people who say things like "go crawl back under rocks" are not too bright - thanks for playing :-)

Grant G, while I congratulate you for being on the anti-HST side, you seem to have the old socialist (and new BC Liberal)penchant for using selected statistics.

Virtually EVERY Provincial government we've had since we entered Confederation with Canada way back in 1871, (on condition the Dominion government take over the Colonial debt, amongst other things), has left office with an overall debt obligation greater than when it came in.

WAC Bennett claimed the Province was "direct" debt free in 1959, seven years after he was elected, and it was. But much of what had been "direct" debt had been transferred to various Crown owned 'Authorities', who contracted further loans in their own name that were unconditionally guaranteed by the Province of BC. Not exactly 'paid off'.

In accounting, this put these debts into the class of "contingent liabilities" ~ much in the manner you would incur a contingent liability if you co-signed a Bank loan as a guarantor ~ a loan the other signatory would normally be solely obligated to pay.

You have no "direct" debt from doing this, but if the other signatory defaults you're on the hook.

What this practice allowed Bennett to do was put in place standard business accounting practices in these various 'Authorities', which enabled them to properly 'price' whatever product or service they were delivering to the public.

If, in the case of BC Ferries, for instance, there would have normally been a cost of maintaining a taxpayer funded highway to Vancouver Island, this could be given to BC Ferries as a subsidy, and then the Ferry Authority could calculate how much extra it had to recover from the public in fares to fully cover its operating costs, amortise its borrowed capital costs, and recover enough through depreciation to help fund replacing the ferries when they finally wore out.

This is simply good business management.

The problem that EVERY government faces, whether they are so-called socialist ones, like the NDP and its counterparts elsewhere, or nominal capitalist ones like the BC Liberals et al, is NOT going to ever be solved by changing 'private' ownership of the means of providing actual goods and services to 'public' ownership of the same, nor vice versa.

You could have everything 'publicly' owned as old Tommy Douglas might have desired , or, as I'm sure Godon Campbell's ideal world would have it, everything possible 'privatised', and neither presecription would touch the fundamental reason why what COULD be done, and SHOULD be done, currently CAN'T be done.

That fundamental reason will be found, not by attacking 'profit', as socialists are wont to do (generally not even understanding what the 'profit' they're attacking actually is), but in the ongoing relationship between the quantity of 'MONEY' itself and the PRICES of ALL goods and services expressed in 'money'.

It might be interesting to you to know that your hero, and the CBC's choice of the most 'outstanding Canadian', Tommy Douglas, once showed some slight sign that he might have understood this, way back when.

For in one of the early elections he was involved in he ran as BOTH the CCF and Social Credit candidate. Sadly, he didn't study the prescriptions of the latter more thoroughly, for had he gained a more complete understanding of them he truly might have been of more use to the country than he ever subsequently was.

@ So uncredible......The great depression in the dirty 30s...Was caused by greed from Capitalists...

The last and still ongoing global recession was caused by Wallstreet greed(capitalists)

To call NDP governments socialists is pathetic, Obama is not a socialist...Saskatchewan`s aren`t socialists..and the NDP on the east coast are not socialists.

Gordon Campbell is the worst manager/premier in BC History, that cannont be disputed.

As for your accounting lesson....Not only has Campbell tripled our BC Debt...BC Ferries has a $1.6 billion dollar debt and didn`t make enough money last year to even pay the interest on their massive NEW DEBT!

BC Hydro is also saddled with debt, for the first time in decades BC Hydro was unable to pay the Government of BC it`s yearly dividend, Campbell has saddled BC hydro with massive debt, the majority of the debt was to benefit private IPPs.

BC has had the most child poverty in Canada for 7 straight years.

BC has the highest tuition in Canada.

Highest fuel prices in Canada.

BC is dead last in Canada on GDP to health spending, DEAD LAST.

BC has the lowest minimum wage in Canada by a long shot.

Gordon Campbell and the media have been brainwashing the public(and you) about being great managers.

BC has the fewest prisons per population in Canada, Campbell closed 9 prisons and 25 courthouses since talking power...

The bullshit about lowering income tax for the wealthy only to jack up user fees left right and center.

71 mills have closed since Campbell...30,000 lost forestry jobs since Campbell...Yet he gave away vast tracts of crown land to the big three forestry firms, they promised jobs but delivered nothing...

BC is nothing but a raw log whore, cheap cants going to China, low grade spaghetti poles worth nothing...

Ben Meisner is a Gordon Campbell pimp, as is Opinion 250...

Sure Meisner might huff and puff a little but he always goes back to pimping Pat Bell/Bond and Campbell.

Campbell has a legacy of debt, lies ....Campbell has blood stained hands.

Lastly ...Fudgit budget...Glen Clark, $250 million dollar deficit when they said the budget would be balanced...

How big was Campbell`s fudget budget? Campbell said...."$495 million dollar deficit, maximum!"

How big was his lie....The deficit was $3.5 billion dollars!

And lets talk about Ken Dobell/Patrick Kinsella/BC Rail/tearing up contracts/drunk driving/John Les on land fraud/Kash Heed on election fraud/Von Dongen as a serial excessive speeder/Jane Thornthwaite drunk driving...

Either you are blind or stupid, take your pick!

"Highest fuel prices in Canada"
BC is not great, but if you are wrong on one point, how many others are you wrong on?

Province Price Trend
Alberta 94.634
Ontario 97.080
Manitoba 98.592
New Brunswick 99.883
PEI 101.900
Quebec 103.218
Nova Scotia 105.039
Saskatchewan 105.177
British Columbia 109.720
Newfoundland 111.392
Northwest Territories 117.400

Wow interceptor! I feel so much better that you pointed out that Grant G was wrong about fuel prices. Having the highest prices for fuel in the lower 10 is so much better than ALL of Canada.

If that's the best you can come up with interceptor, I think Grant G's point has alot more credibility than your lame attempt to discredit him

Small rural northern communities are the exception....Fuel in Bamfield is 1.25 litre...

Fuel on the sunshinecoast is 114.9 litre

as for your "fuel Trends" doesn`t equate...Fuel in the lowermainland today is.....

115.9 or better....

Check with gas buddy....

Grant, the Great Depression of the 1930's was caused by many things, and "greed of Capitalists" , and would-be "Capitalists", who were more often members of the general public speculating in the stock market on borrowed funds, was only one of them ~ and a rather minor one at that.

The FUNDAMENTAL cause was that the financial system was not fully self-liquidating. Same as what's CAUSED the current financial debacles we're experiencing today. Even if there had been no "capitalist greed", the same thing would have eventually happened.

I only call the NDP what it has long called itself. Personally, I think each of its five Premiers was less 'socialist' than his predecessor.

Gordon Campbell is without a doubt the absolute worst Premier in BC history, bar none.

As for the "accounting lesson", if your financial system is not fully self-liquidating in each cycle of production/consumption you are going to get increasing debt, since all debt is a cumulative deficiency of purchasing power recorded over time.

The other things you say about BC, child poverty, minimum wage, etc. are all quite true. It is a truly pathetic record for any Premier to boast we're "number one" again when he's overseen such failures.

You won't have "jobs" in forestry or anything else unless there is an actual Consumer Demand for the products being made AND that Consumer Demand CAN ALWAYS BE MADE AN 'EFFECTIVE DEMAND'.

You might want to ask yourself, assuming there is an actual Consumer Demand for what BC might produce, here or somewhere else in the world, what keeps that demand from being made "effective"?

While you're at it, you might also ask yourself just how, if ALL 'costs' are included in 'price', yet modern labour wages, high or low, are only a PART of those 'costs', those wages are ever going to be able to FULLY liquidate the 'costs' (aside from any consideration of profit ~ just the 'costs' alone), that they're only a PART OF?

The other failings of the Campbell government are well known to us all, and no doubt more and more will come to light as time goes on. The question is, JUST WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO ABOUT IT? Put in a different, better intentioned crowd who'll only end up doing the same? Because that's what our current, flawed 'financial system' FORCES them to do. Or insist on changing that 'system', of which the anti-HST Petition process is still currently our best FIRST step?

Conservative Governments(Gordon Campbell)..

Through out history have screwed the economy...

Ronald Reagen with his trickle down economics..George Bush was a total failure and dimwit...

In Canada Conservative Governments have created debt while transfering wealth out of country and out of the people`s hands.

NDP governments in Canada have been better fiscal managers by a country mile.


Conservatism is dead, Campbell is dead..

What country has a $14 trillion dollar debt...The USA, the debt will never be paid.

There is but one benefit to the HST...

It means the death of the BC Liberals and a hasty retirement of Godon Campbell(July of this year)

You can criticize the NDP all you want, just make sure the truth gets out about the biggest debtor Government in BC history...Gordon Campbell and the Liberals...

They screwed forestry, they are killing off wild salmon, sold our independence to the Feds..

Sold our BC Ferries to German banking consortium..

Sold our railway..

Falcon is trying to sell off our healthcare.

Public education has been gutted.

But no problems with a giant casino and a $600 million dollar roof!

Gordon Campbell couldn`t run a peanut stand!

While I agree with Grant G about what he says about Gordon Campbell and the so called liberals in general,I still hesitate to say this anti-HST petition will be their undoing.Grant G it seems you have quite a bit of anger and hatred built up towards Gordon Campbell,and even though it is easy to feel this way about him,he isn't worth the time and energy.I do have a suggestion for the future in regards to people who hold office.If a politician is found guilty of doing something wrong in relation to his/her duties,they lose any entitlement to their pension and anyone in the party having knowledge of the wrongdoing,also loses their pension.This may already exist,I don't know for sure,but at least this way if they avoid jail time,there would still be some sort of punishment.

Grant G:-"NDP governments in Canada have been better fiscal managers by a country mile."
----------------------------------------

They're the Bankers' best friends. And I'm not trying to be facetious in saying that. It's the truth.

Lets concentrate on rescinding the HST.

So Ms. James, should she become Premier next election, will be spared the agony of having to reverse her current position on it, and HAVE to tell us she now wants to keep it. To keep her "best friends" friendly.

I said a number of years ago that if you went to a Social Credit Convention and asked all in attendence to put their pay stubs on the table, you would have pay stubs from all levels of business, ie; Trucking Companies, Owner Operators, Restaurant Owners, Car Dealerships, etc; etc; etc;. Very few if any Government pay stubs.

If you went to an NDP Convention and had them put thier pay stubs on the table, they would be from Government, Teachers, Unions, etc; etc; etc. Very few from Private Enterprise.

Considering that the first group has to earn money and pay taxes for the services of the second group should give all you NDP Socialists food for thought.

Governments and its employees cannot run or exist without the tax dollars from Private Enterprise and business. It that simple. So quit your bleating. They do not call them Civil Servants, or Government Workers, or Public Service Employees for no reason.

In simplistic terms, a Conservative will earn enough **real money** to support himself and a couple of Government workers. Civil Servants are a direct drain on the earnings of business, and boni fide employees, their cost should always be kept as low as possible, while still providing the **service**

Because of the lackadaisical attitude of Voters in Canada over the years, we are now hamstrung with hundreds of thousands of Government Employees who contribute very little to the national good.

So check your pay stub and see if your a receiver of taxpayers money. (Government Employee) or a person who pays the Government money. (Private Enterpriser) then govern yourself accordingly.