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There Is A Reason Why People Don't Live In The Downtown Of Prince George

By Ben Meisner

Thursday, May 27, 2010 04:06 PM

Before we rush off building a number of condos downtown to attract either seniors or people who want live in that section of the city, we might want to do a survey to see where people are living in the city and why.

There is a strong argument to be made that a new downtown condo will cost you about $280,000 dollars using the most recent figures, versus a stand alone home in the city that can be bought for about $175,000 dollars. So let’s say you don’t want to cut the grass and plow the snow, (some people do not have the luxury of spending the winter in Mexico) the difference in taxes between the two homes is more than sufficient to allow people to have someone come in and do the chores in the yard.

Add to that, we have what is sometimes referred to as a,” two light" five o’clock traffic problem and the ability to get across town in 15 minutes and why in the world would you want to live in a condo downtown which will require you to get in your vehicle in order to obtain most necessities, looking out of your window at concrete and buildings. A four hour commute in cities such as Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal to get to and from work every day is enough to convince you of the idea of living near where your work in the downtown .  Prince George does not have that problem.

Now there will always be those who will say downtown is the place for me, but consider this for a moment; I think of people like Chuck and Mary Jago, who once  lived near me , opted for a more rural life style outside of town. The head of  Medical Staff for Northern Health lives at a lake in the area and while that commute takes perhaps 15 to 20 minutes a day it is pale in comparison to a major city drive. There are numerous people including some who sit on the directors of the DBIA who have chosen a rural life style and the question should be put to them as to where they prefer to live.

Common sense will tell you that the majority of the people that come to the city prefer their own little piece of ground, many of them in a rural setting, that's why the downtown has never and will in the future never be able to become the Robson St of Prince George. There is no burning desire to go there. 20-30 and 40 year tax breaks are not going to change their mind.

I’m Meisner and that’s one man’s’ opinion.


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Comments

amen
Well said.
amen
Well said! Is Mayor Rogers listening or is he planning to pump more of our tax money into the downtown?
I work downtown and know two people who have recently moved from their larger homes on the outskirts (in very popular neighbourhoods) into downsized homes in the downtown core. When I asked them why it came down to the fact that they could now walk to work (save money, good exercise, etc.), they were at an age where they didn't need the big home for kids and they were also sick of maintaining a larger home.

The fact is, if there were reasonable housing options for people downtown, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't be utilized. Just like not everyone wants to live downtown, not everyone wants to live on the outskirts.

Personally, I think the biggest issue with downtown living would be the air quality and that's the main reason why I would never consider it. That can change with time though and so can the attractiveness of being close to the downtown core.
"Common sense will tell you that the majority of the people that come to the city prefer their own little piece of ground, many of them in a rural setting, that's why the downtown has never and will in the future never be able to become the Robson St of Prince George. There is no burning desire to go there"

Based on that argument, the only cities in Canada that should have active downtown cores are Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, etc. The reality is that MANY cities (including some that are smaller and more rural than PG) have very attractive downtown cores. How do you reconcile that Ben?
Air quality. Who in their right mind would want to breath in oil refinery toxins 24/7.... In the US they have buffer zones (cancer alley) recommended for settlements in proximity to oil refineries. In PG our entire downtown falls within that 'buffer zone'. Essentially the stacks of the oil refinery are little more than a kilometer from the downtown. No other city in Canada can make this claim and no other city in Canada would focus their tax dollars so heavily to develop in the shadow of an oil refinery.

So we are in the shadow of an oil refinery and half of the downtown is below the 200-year flood plain meaning parking will forever be a problem. I can see why people wouldn't want to move en-mass into this location considering the city is loosing population.
Air quality I can see being a real barrier. Floods? I'm not buying it. Realistically, when was the last time we had a flood that caused any damage to the area we generally refer to as "downtown"? Actually, have we ever had such damage or is it just hypothetical?

I know the Bow River in Calgary flooded some downtown property there a few years back. Did it stop them from developing down there? What about every major city in Tornado Alley? Do they stop developing out of fear of Tornado's (which occur with much more frequency than a flooding Nechako)? Does Miami not develop their beach front out of fear that a hurricaine will destroy it?

I can see be paranoid if flooding in that area was a regular occurence, however, it isn't. You have to look at the overall risks. We're probably more at risk for widescale damage from a lightning strike than we are from flooding. Does that mean we don't develop anywhere near trees?
I dont think flooding is the issue. The fact that the Downtown area is below the flood level means that in a number of places you cannot get undergound parking without hittng water.

There has been no significant flooding in Prince George since the Kenny Dam was built in the 1950's. Last big flood was in 1948 I beleive. In any event Downtown Prince George is built on the flood plain, and during high spring runoff the water comes to the surface in different areas. Usually on the East End of 4th Avenue. Thats why the City has a huge pump on the East end of 1st Avenue. The water also goes under River Road and rises on the South Side. I dont know if the work the City has done on River Road will solve this problem or not.

Water has been known to rise up on the South side of 1st Avenue also. I have heard that on occasion the basement of the KPMG Building gets water.???
don't bet on it Ben. I'd rather have a downtown condo than a new house in College Heights on a lot so small that you hardly have 4 feet from your house to the side lot line.
No matter what the city does along the river for flood protection... Palopu is right, water will peculate up in spots below the flood plain. All of George street (the center for tax payer funded revitalization) is under the 'high water level'. This means no under ground parking, thus no high density unless you have high public transportation. PG is a long way away from having a high use of public transportation. A building in the flood plain is required by code to build its infrastructure like the electrical and such above the flood plain... this takes up street level space because the building is limited in what it can do to a level that is currently above street level.

Essentially you can only build up from George street, and in no way can you go down even for a basement without possibly some system in place that would pump out ground water like a sinking ship (mildew ect) possibly from a shallow garage?

A perfect storm to discredit the use of wood would include a Wood Innovation Center built with a basement on George street subjected to the 200-year water levels for a month in the summer... how would we explain the work to remove the mildew.

If what you wanted was a downtown of the future that took on the role of a Toronto or Vancouver with high density population concentration that would make people proud to point to our downtown as the example of how its done... then the first thing you would want to do is stop the new RCMP building on 4th and Victoria. Clearly if you want a high density downtown, then you have to have elevation from the water level with which to anchor taller buildings that can have their own parking in garages below ground. The new RCMP design can be built anywhere, and yet it is proposed for prime potential downtown high density capable land.

Build the downtown west of Victoria Street and it stands a real chance of transforming into what people in this city would be proud of. But the land speculator planners in this city have other plans to sell the public all the swamp land they can get on the cheep, so that the tax payer can double down on the wrong location for the wrong reasons with the wrong short sighted outlook without the approval of the voter.

In any event good luck getting to vote on any of 'the plans'... the relevant decisions will likely be made well advance.
Sorry Ben, but I think your assessment of why people don't want to live downtown is reflecting your age - the younger generations just don't see it the same way.

The suburbs are fine for some people but for more and more people they are just downright inconvenient. I don't want to have to jump in my car and drive for 20 minutes to pick up cream for my coffee. I like the fact that I only need to put gas in my car four times a year because I rarely have to drive it. I enjoy the convenience of being in the center of everything.

And quite frankly, if my parents move into into senior housing at some point, there is no place more convenient then then downtown - close to where I live.

People want to live downtown - drive around the crescents and take a look at all of the new houses being built and try to tell me otherwise. Unlike the suburbs, those new houses aren't cheap builder spec houses - they are custom built homes that people are putting alot of care and attention into. The only reason there isn't people living right downtown is that as of right now - there is nothing to live in yet.
to: streetwise2. your handle is not based on what you know!!!
no self respecting young person would live down town. I have 3 grown adult kids that would never set foot down town. they were born and rased here and they know the pit falls of going down town. prince george is NOT vancouver, I go to vancouver 1-2 times a month. I have no problem walking alone at night in down town Vancouver. I do have a problem walking in down town prince george. In the last 6 years I have gone down town (4th & george) 3 times (keg) Every time I am asked for Money, Drugs , or have been harsed by the down town locals. I am to the point if go down town once more and am botherd by our local scum.... I will correct the problem.. long and the short of it STREETWISE 2... you have know clue.
I know most want to live better meaning like leave the car home till the holiday. A walk to work be a hell of a lot better. But we need to start building what we want. I love to see a city that people cycle more then drive a car. That the motor vehicle is not being used so much. But there has to be a proper vision which means proper plans to build and where. We can lead here in PG if we want to. I have a good feeling that our past will show us and give us a downtown cities all over Canada will sit up and take notice.
Rattboy

When was the last time you went down town? I have been to the Keg and gone for walks down George Street several times since the PG hotel closed at least half a dozen times). I am happy to report that I never got accosted once. Just because you and your kids are afraid of downtown, it doesn't mean everyone is.

And is it really necessary to insult me? I am simply sharing my opinion. I know what I want for a place to live, who are you to tell me what I want is wrong?

The changes needed downtown are happening. I refuse to just throw my hands up an give up. I know the problems downtown has had in the past and I see the improvements. I am not clueless, and you are right, Prince George is not Vancouver - thank god for that!
Rattyboy: Dont' even try to say that downtown Vancouver is better / safer than downtown Prince George. Downtown Vancouver is no better, just bigger. There are more options for shopping and dining, but the scum you speak of are there, and make themselves known. I go to Vancouver regularly and wouldn't DREAM of walking alone at night. I use the skytrain regularly and am accosted all the time. I walk throughout the day to shop and pass multiple homeless people with their hands out looking for change. Just recently, I dined out on the patio of a nice restaurant, only to be approached 3 times by street people looking for a handout. If you love Vancouver so much, then move there. It is no better, that's for sure, just different. It won't take you long to realize that if you lived there. I also know several people, friends and family, who live downtown. They love the convenience, but in no way do they feel particularly safe.
I wouldn't live in downtown Prince George either, simply because of the air quality and the fact that it has NOTHING to offer. Sure, I could walk to work, but where I live now I can ride my bike and breath a little easier.
Contrary to your beliefs Rattyboy, like StreetWise, I am also a self-respecting young person who would love to live downtown if there were green, affordable condos or townhouses available there. I have hope that the downtown can be revived and that Prince George can have an authentic, unique core that will attract locals and visitors alike. Living downtown would be my investment in that vision. There are some great businesses that I'd happily frequent more often if they were within walking distance. We should praise places like Books & Company, which offers open mic nights and a chance to meet local and regional authors, Nancy O's with their fantastic live music, the Farmer's Market, the Public Library which has lots of cheap family-friendly programing and Two Rivers Art Gallery where you can visit the exhibits for free on Thursdays. I don't understand the paranoia and fear that many feel about visiting the downtown core. In the 2 1/2 years that I've lived in Prince George, I've only once felt intimidated in the downtown and it wasn't enough to deter me from going back. Without a vibrant downtown, Prince George is not a destination, it's just another community with a highway running through it.
I am 30 years old, own a home and have a good job paying more then the average family income and a girlfriend who will soon be as well. I would much rather live downtown if it was a viable option. The type of people you would get living downtown are not the family with 2 kids,a dog and a minivan or the older high income bracket couples such as live by Ben. There are lots of young people as well as old that would love to be somewhere I can walk to the farmers market,a coffee shop and a small store in 5 minutes to get my daily needs. The potential is there you have to deal with some social issues just as much as the lack of housing/development. It amazes me when i spend a afternoon downtown at the great stores and small businesses that are there. I know a large majority enjoy the life of driving everywhere to shop at big boxes in generic strip malls and living in generic homes in generic neighborhoods but that is not the whole population. Build it and they will come. I would start by working with the local Native groups on some social health and drug rehabilitation iniatives as Baldy Hughes is a great example of what thinking outside the box a little can get you.
Some of the reasons:

1. The view from a high rise apartment building facing to the east includes the foothills of the Rockies, but is spoiled by industrial smokestacks in the forefront.

2. Buildings typically are not designed to provide everyone with a sunny side. Apartment buildings often run east west, giving half the units a sunny side and the other half a northern side. That does not make for a pleasnt apartment unit during long winters with short daylight hours.

Try running the long axis of buildings parallel to Vancouver and Winnipeg. Try re-introducing Rupert Street as a pedestrian only (+ delivery routes) street to orient the long axis north-south or restricting building configuration to square floor plans.