Well said Ben. We really don't know how lucky we are. There's not enough money to pay me to live down there. PG is my home to stay. I will have my mortgage paid off in 5 years and I do have lots of toys to play with, that are all paid for too. Could never have done that if I was living south. Thanks for the reminder!

shhh --- lets keep it a secret

Ben all of that is true, but you have to admit that everytime the city council sits in the office they raise taxes on something else. I was born here and will be here for ever because I do like it rather than a large city(I like getting everywhere in 20 mins or less)but our taxes are outragous for what we get in turn. The city cannot even fix properly the sink hole at the round about, lots of money spent on the bridge with a sink hole.

There was a time when PG had the most millionaires per capita in Canada, I wonder if that is still true. All in all PG is a wonderful place to live.

Mention Prince George to the nurses in Vancouver then you will see why people don't come here!

well I live in PG and can't afford the toys either....

Most of these toys are financed, many great deals on used toys to be had. Also, with the deflation occurring prices on new toys has dropped quite a bit over the years.

There is no utopia ...but I like it here. Wilderness minutes away in any direction, a beautiful setting, bearable traffic, nice people, big enough to be incognito if one desires and small enough to be a true community. A fairly decent selection of shopping, beautiful parks and trails, all the amenities. We've got it all. Sure winter can be crap on certain days, but what are you willing to trade it in for...rain, unbearable heat, traffic, huge mortgages, and rat race mode in most cases. Oh there are other nice communities in BC, but this is definitely one of them. For all those naysayers out there I can report that it's only getting better here as far as I can see.Clean up the air quality and we'd be golden.

This story makes no sense unless it is compared to population and the percentage of people who earn in excess of $60,000.00 or more per year. There are many people in the greater Vancouver area who earn huge salaries, and can afford all the expensive houses, cars, toys etc.

These people have fancy cars, own business's etc; and have a huge income. They will never be seen riding the transit system. That system is for the people in Vancouver, and there are hundreds of thousands of them that earn less than $40,000.00 per year, and cant afford a car, house, or other toys.

Prince George has a lot of high income earners, who buy houses, cars, etc. and of course a lot of low income earners, and pensioners, who just get by.

With an unemployment rate of 9.3% most people who come to Prince George now, couldnt get a job. So in effect while we have cheap houses, etc; we have no employment to offer. Thats one of the reasons that the population remains static.

Here are some of the people who do ok in Prince George.
1. Teachers
2. Government Workers
3. Union forestry, pulp and paper workers.
4. Business people.
5. UNBC and CNC workers/teachers.
6. RCMP and Fireman
7. Federal and Provicial Politicians.
8. Hospital employees, nurses, doctors etc;

These people make up the majority of the high income earners, and for them life is pretty good. For the balance **not so great**

Offer people a high paying job in Prince George and they will probably come. Offer them a cheap house, expensive toys, and no job, and they will laugh at you.

I agree with everything Ben said except for one thing.

For me... I could get to most places in PG (except from the Hart to College Heights) in about 10 minutes.

I LOVE watching BCTV news in the mornings when they show the traffic at 6:30 or 7am.

Makes me laugh and chuckle out loud.

re:Palopu

Actually this story DOES make a lot of sense and I don't think you're looking at the BIG picture. It's unfair to make a judgement right now based on our current economy. That's because no matter what the economy is doing Vancouver has always been, and always will be, a MORE EXPENSIVE place to live.

A friend of my nephews moved to Vernon because he wanted to be in the Okanagan. That was 3 years ago and he's still there. He has no education and just works for slightly more than minimum wage.

In comparison my nephew moved to Vancouver and lasted 6 months.

The story Ben wrote has a strong message within it for people who want more "fun" and financial freedom in life regardless of their income. Because even if you're a BIG income earner and can afford to live in Vancouver there's no denying that if you moved to PG you'd have more disposable income that you would in Vancouver.

Palopu your post is funny. One example I see is a lot of nice houses in rural PG with a collection of toys and guess what is parked outside? A logging truck.

I had a few hours to spare a couple of weeks ago & was downtown, I figured "Let's
see just how bad it really is." I was
pleasantly surprised. PG is not that bad,
I've seen waaayyyy worse in downtown Vancouver. Yes we have our faults & there is lots of room for improvement but overall
this is a pretty damn good place to live.
We have world class everything right at our backyards. Want to fish, we got it.
Want first class hunting, we got it. This area offers some of the best powder skiing
in the world (not North America the whole world). First class hiking, excellent climbing & mountaineering. We have an
incredible symphony, our theatre is very
good & very entertaining. Housing is still
relatively affordable.
Vancouver is a beautiful place, I love to visit there, but unless you are well on the road to independant wealth it is not a great place to live.

Seems people have trouble dealing with the facts.

The fact is the population in the Greater Vancouver area has been growing steadily over the past 40 years. The population of Prince George has barely moved.

If this was such a great place to live, how come no one moves here except Government Workers. Having 10 or 15 familys move to Prince George in a year is hardly growth.

Simply put. If you dont have a good paying job then you are not going to come to Prince George. It reminds me the way Kelowna was a number of years ago. They used to say, if you want to get a job in Kelowna you would have to keep your eye on the obituarys, or get one through an inheritance.

Grow the economy and the job base, and you will grow the City.

If Vancouver is so bad, someone should let the people know so that they will stop going there.

"Having 10 or 15 familys move to Prince George in a year is hardly growth."

That's a rough guess, of course. The number could be a lot less or a lot more...

BTW, considering the job losses in the forestry related industries P.G. has done a great job creating other jobs in education, healthcare and such - basically doing somewhat better than just holding its own!

Prince George has not created any jobs in Education, Healthcare, etc; These jobs were created by the Province of British Columbia, and are paid for by tax dollars from all British Columbians. The same as Universitys, Hospitals etc in all other parts of the Province.

It is the responsibility of the Province to supply services. In this case the service area would be the North Centreal British Columbia. We have no more claim to the University or other facilities, that people in MacKenzie, Quesnel, Burns Lake, etc; They all pay tax dollars for these facilities and thats why they are called Regional. Nothing to do with the City, other than it is stratigically localed.

2005 Census shows that there were 54,260 people over the age of 15 employed and earning money in Prince George.

There were 35,105 who earned less than $40,000.00 per year. There were 19,150 who earned over $40,000.00 per year. The median income was $27,670.00. The average income was $35,695.00. (Before taxes)

So we can see that not everyone in this town is earning big money, nor can they afford fancy houses, big cars, boats, snowmobiles, 4x4`s etc;. Some can, most cant.

Have a nice day.

Palopu, you seem to be the only one griping about employment or lack of. OK,
the company I work for has been adding positions (well paid positions) for the last year. We are not a gov't related company nor forestry based. The pulp mills are adding jobs steady, peruse the weekend classifieds in most BC papers & you'll see positions posted almost every week. As PG posted, despite the economic downturn & devastation to the forest industry Prince George has weathered the storm quite well. Even if you don't have the highest paying job PG is still a far better bargain than Vancouver.
I don't know what facts I'm struggling with but 2005 was 5 years ago. Vancouver as well as the rest of the province is
in a post Olympic funk. No real job growth & not much of anything driving the economy
except......THE NORTH. As for population growth I would hazard a guess that most of Vancouvers growth has come from Eastern Canada. All that aside if you truly believe PG sucks so much & employment
prospects are rosier elsewhere, by all
means leave & be happier someplace else.

I like Prince George. Been here more than twenty years. I wouldn't live anywhere else. It's the people here. Kelowna is just a small Vancouver. Been to Richmond? Every square inch of it is either businesses or housing. Almost half a million bucks for a warm place to sleep in the Lower Mainland? No thanks. Just how long we can keep PG a secret from the rest of the province is any ones guess. Running water and cablevision. Who could want anything more?

Pulp mills are not adding jobs, they may be hiring as people retire but, the number of jobs at the mills has dropped. The trades have not been replaced as members retire. The crews are a lot smaller as the mills have trimmed costs.
PG is an OK place to live if you have a job that can provide money to enjoy the finer things, like toys and holidays. If I were part of the working poor I think I'd be down south in the kootenays, the okanagan, or on the island. Better weather and way more free recreation close to all centres.

Pulp mills are not adding jobs, they may be hiring as people retire but, the number of jobs at the mills has dropped. The trades have not been replaced as members retire. The crews are a lot smaller as the mills have trimmed costs.
PG is an OK place to live if you have a job that can provide money to enjoy the finer things, like toys and holidays. If I were part of the working poor I think I'd be down south in the kootenays, the okanagan, or on the island. Better weather and way more free recreation close to all centres.

Oops

PG doesn't have a law school and that reflects in the quality of the legal profession in this town (and throughout the north). That and the city council is out of control on the tax and spending spree for pet projects the people never asked for, or had an opportunity to vote on.

It all adds up to bad policy and horrible allocation of tax dollars that makes most that have lived in this city for any length of time wonder when will they stop transferring our wealth to the public sector mandarins at city hall and their private for profit land speculators (ie the downtown tax holiday and speculative real estate investments with city dollars).

PG is a good place to live if you live outside of the city taxation boundaries at best.

Our parks have some of the best potential in the country, but the worst use of that potential. Our roads are falling apart everywhere. Most of the Hart has no curbs, no sewer, no parks, no city services, no maintenanced green space (not even the highway boulevards), and few properly paved roads... but pays the same in taxes as the rest of the city.

PG is an underachiever in its potential because we have fools that run the city from the political and bureaucracy perspective, and that shows no signs of ever changing... This city could easily be a far better city than Kelowna, or Chilliwack, or Red Deer, or others of comparable size, but we aren't. One hopes that that will change someday.

I do agree with Eagleone when he says that we are an underachiever. The potential here is huge if we had people with vision running the show.

Palopu, that's quite the list of good paying jobs you laid out there. You forgot things like engineers, dentists, accountants, lawyers, electricians, etc. No biggie, but this of course brings me to my next point and that is it doesn't matter where you live in Canada, if you want to make good money, get an education or a trade and work in a field that pays well. It's not rocket science. The same people will be doing okay wherever you look, it's not just PG. Do you honestly think that a store clerk in Vancouver is making 100K a year while that same clerk in PG is making 20K? Wages are more relative to skills and market demand, not your location.

There is no doubt, however, that PG is much cheaper to live in than places like Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, etc. Where it gets more complicated is to compare us to places like a Red Deer, Regina, similar sized towns in Ontario, etc. The PG to Vancouver comparison isn't really apples to apples . . .

I agree with Ben. I just got back from Alberta,(born and raised) and really appreciate PG. My relatives would pee there pants to go quading out there back door, to catch trout everywhere, have a affordable lakefront cabin, no traffic, a local university, an international airport that you can catch a flight to by being a half our early. I always thought PG would be a temporary stop. It's home base now. Gotta put up with a higher percentage of perpetual whiners and complainers, but they are relatively easy to ignore.

speaking of whiners "pg dosen't have a law school which reflects in the quality of the legal profession in this town".....another bizaar statement from eagleone. I suspect a zionest agenda.

PG doesnt have an official International Airport. There are only 17 in all of Canada and Prince George is not one of them. They call themselves an International Airport because they have a part time Customs Office.

NMG. Your argument for having people get an education so that they can get a high paying jobs is full of holes. If we were all University Graduates, or professionals, who would do the grunge work.

Would we bring in mexicans or some other people from third world Countrys to do the menial work. There are not enough Professional or high paying jobs in Canada to support everyone if we all had an education. Plus the competition for the jobs would be fierce, and most of the so called professionals in Prince George would be beat out of a job in no time flat, from the other highly educated people.

So if you want to keep your high paying job, you better hope that we dont highly educate everyone, or we are all in trouble.

I can just visualize Wal Mart with 250 employees with 3 years University Education working for $10.00 per hour, 20 hours per week.

Correction:

Canada has 13 International Airports officially designated by Transport Canada.

Prince George is not one of these Airports.

A great discussion so far. One of the best I have see on here!! It is totally multifaceted but the topic really is the integration of all those elements that make a place what it is.

I am fascinated by the study of urbanization. All urban areas are not the same. Much of Canada is urbanized and there are academic devisions of what is urban and what is rural.

NMG is on the right track when he says comparing a city like PG to Vancouver is like comparing apples to oranges. Vancouver is a world class city, even if it is on the small side in that category. Prince George is a small regional centre and one of thousands in the world. Each has advantages and disadvantages. It is typically a lifestyle choice these days as to where you live no matter if you are a burger flipper or human resources manager for Canfor.

There is one thing that you seem to be missing about the growth of Vancouver over the last two decades - Hong Kong. Most of Vancouver's growth has not come from Eastern Canada over that time period. That part of Canada fed most of Calgary's growth as well as a good part of Edmonton's growth. The growth is from Asia - China and in a smaller part from India.

An excellent article from the Vancouver Sun 2007 about the impact the late 20th century Chinese immigration has had on Vancouver.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=011b7438-172c-4126-ba42-2c85828bd6ce&k=44011
Below are some stats for 4 BC cities which can be viewed at the linked site http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/dd/facsheet/facsheet.asp

The first figure is from the 2001 census and the second from the 2006 census.
The stats address the value of owned housing, the cost of renting, the percent owned and rented and the median family income.

I think it quickly becomes obvious that home ownership in Vancouver is considerably lower than in the smaller communities and that the family income in PG was still the highest of the 4 communities. I believe that the 2011 census will show that is continuing.

pg
avg owned dwel value $127,140 $178,738
med fam inc $60,578 $73,591
avg gross rent $646 $656
owned 19,095 19,835
rented 8,510 8,370
% owned 69.2% 70.3%

kamloops
avg owned dwel value $152,303 $257,242
med fam inc $56,188 $67,434
avg gross rent $652 $740
owned 21,845 23,970
rented 8,860 8,685
% owned 71.1% 73.4%

vancouver
avg owned dwel value $358,374 $628,682
med fam inc $51,268 $64,007
avg gross rent $796 $898
owned 103,340 121,850
rented 132,755 131,535
% owned 43.8% 48.1%

kelowna
avg owned dwel value $188,173 $376,151
med fam inc $51,369 $61,263
avg gross rent $730 $878
owned 27,050 32,385
rented 12,995 12,600
% owned 67.5% 72.0%

Here is some more information that addresses the commonly held belief that we are so different from how money is earned in this community versus others.

I have taken the typically highest percentage of people in specific categories of employment since the whole selection would be rather large. The 7 selected are around 60% of the workforce in all communities.

PG
retail 11.5%
health + soc assist 10.9%
accom + food services 8.5%
total 30.9%

manufacturing 10.6%
education 7.3%
construction 5.8%
prof, scientific 5.0%
total 28.7%
------------------------------
Kamloops
retail 12.9%
health + soc assist 11.4%
accom + food services 9.4%
total 33.7%

construction 7.7%
manufacturing 7.1%
education 6.5%
prof, scientific 4.4%
total 25.7%
------------------------------
Vancouver
health + soc assist 9.7%
accom + food services 9.7%
retail 9.2%
total 28.6%

prof, scientific 12.0%
education 8.2%
manufacturing 7.1%
construction 4.4%
total 31.7%
--------------------------
Kelowna
retail 13.1%
health + soc assist 11.1%
accom + food services 9.3%
total 33.5%

construction 10.9%
manufacturing 7.6%
prof, scientific 6.6%
education 5.8%
total 30.9%
---------------------------

If you notice the first grouping of three are primarily support services, although they are also part of the tourism industry and can thus be first order money generators. Even medical services have the potential to bring money into the province by developing continental or world centres of excellence.

The second grouping are is primarily "wealth generating" through developing infrastructure and human resources; "inventing and implementing designs and processes" by professionals and manufacturing products.

There are obvious differences when one drills down to actual companies and the work they do, but essentially the notion that all the jobs created here are government jobs is no different from any other place. It is not PG, it is the way we are developing in this entire country.

Kamloops is the weakest in wealth generating jobs and Vancouver is the strongest.

Kelowna beats out PG for second place because of its high level of growth and infrastructure building as well as its higher level of people employed in the professional/science areas.
--------------------------------

Another set of stats one can look at is the change in percentage of workers in each of those categories over the 5 year period.

The job losses in forestry manufacturing, especially in PG (and that was still a fairly busy period) were precipitous and still remain that way.

As I keep saying, and luckily many others, we need to address the fact that we can no longer rely on forestry alone. The world is changing, whether we agree with it or not. If we fail to recognize that and act, we will not continue to be one of the more "affluent" communities in BC.

Dow I think its actually the reverse vampires in conjunction with the Rand Corporation that Eagleone is referring to.

BS aside, I'm not the kid to rah rah sis boom bah about PG, but I have to admit that it has been a pretty good place for me to live. I've created great opportunities for myself here and made some great friends.

Yeah I bitch about it as well, but I have to admit this is a good place to live.