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Fight HST Protestors Rally At Bell's Office

By Michelle Cyr-Whiting

Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:56 PM

 

Anti-HST protestors wave placards on Hwy 97, in front of MLA Pat Bell's office

 Prince George, B.C. - In one year, less a day, British Columbians should be voting in a referendum on the controversial Harmonized Sales Tax...

 But more than 70 anti-HST protesters rallied along Highway 97, in front of Prince George-Mackenzie MLA Pat Bell's office, today because they want the referendum held before the end of the year.

 If it's not, local Fight HST organizer Eric Allen, says the group will begin recall efforts, starting with Bell, in the spring. If necessary, the group will move on to Prince George-Mount Robson MLA Shirley Bond, followed by Nechako Lakes MLA John Rustad.

 Bell was not on the 18-name recall list released by the provincial Fight HST campaign on Monday, instead it was John Rustad selected from the region. But Allen says, logistically, it's easier to work in the larger ridings first, canvassing the larger communities of Prince George, Mackenzie, McBride and Valemount. And, he says, winter weather plays a role in the decision to wait until spring. 

Recall campaigns in the Lower Mainland are set to begin January 1st. “So if we can get Pat Bell first, we may not have to go any further.” And he adds, “If Vancouver can get three or four, we may not have to go at all because the government is going to have to move on this, they're going to have to do something because it's not going away.”

 Allen encouraged those in attendance to sign up to canvas, saying 500 canvassers would only need to get 30-signatures each to launch a recall initiative.

 Valemount resident, John Grogan, drove from Valemount to speak at today's rally. He congratulated the crowd on uniting to say 'No' to the HST and signing the petition to force a referendum. “But I find it abhorrent that the referendum is a year away, government is getting in the way of the will of the people.” (Grogan shown in photo at right)

 Grogan says, “For Pat Bell and the rest of them to realize that they don't represent Victoria to us, they're supposed to represent us to Victoria.”

 Holding a placard that simply stated “No HST”, Gary Blakely is retired and on a fixed income. He's feeling the impact of the tax, “Every time I go out for lunch or dinner or to golf, I have to pay that extra seven-percent on everything – I find it quite excessive.”

 Sarwan Johal was there to urge the government to get on with the referendum. “Let's hear from the people now about what they want, why wait another year.” Johal says he supports the Liberals and realizes taxes are necessary, but he doesn't like the way the HST was brought in.

“I feel we were deceived on how it was all implemented,” says rally participant Daryl Jarvis. He feels people would have been open to debating the tax, had they been given the opportunity.

 Another protester, Jan Manning, says sees the HST as an enormous transfer of taxes from corporations to individuals, but she's somewhat uncertain about a full-fledged recall campaign. “I don't know, I'd hate to think it could go to recall.” But Manning says that if the government continues to block debate, “And if this is the way it's going to be, if it's going to be all politics than for the people that live in this province, then maybe it is time to do something.”

 So, for now, the plan is to launch a local recall campaign in the first week of April.

 Eric Allen says while weather was one factor in that decision, there was another reason, too.

 “I'm sincere in this, I'm giving Pat Bell, Shirley Bond, and John Rustad a lot of opportunity – six months there – to do something about this tax. They cannot just sit on the fence and do what Gordon Campbell tells them to do when they know that their constituents are against this 100-percent.”


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The following is taken from the Elections B.C. web site:

What constitutes a successful recall petition?

The Recall and Initiative Act requires that a recall petition be signed by more than 40 percent of the voters who were, on the date of the last election of the Member, registered voters for the Member’s electoral district.

How much time is allowed for collection of signatures?

The proponent is allowed 60 days to collect signatures.

http://www.elections.bc.ca/index.php/referenda-recall-initiative/recall/faqs/

I think it is a good idea to hold off on the recall campaigns until the spring time. Getting 40% of the registered voters of a riding to sign the recall petition in 60 days is going to be a major challenge. At the present time the main focus in life for a fairly large portion of the electorate is to borrow and spend money (using the ultra cheap credit which is out there) on homes, toys, and gadgets. The world's debt saturated economies are slowly but surely grinding to a halt. I have a feeling there is going to be a lot more economic pain out there by the spring time. This economic pain which is coming is going to motivate the apathetic amongst us to get involved in the recall process.

The one good thing about the recall campaign, is it looks like the people collecting the signatures are going to have access to the voters list.

The following is also from the Elections B.C. web site which I referenced above:

Will I have access to the voters list?

Yes. The proponent and the MLA are provided with a list of registered voters for the electoral district as of General Voting Day at the last election, showing the addresses where those voters are currently registered.
Fail.
Bell wasn't there...he was doing his usual hide job...
maybe he was at Wendy's learning how to flip burgers.
wow! 70 people with nothing better to do
Gary Blakely is retired and on a fixed income. He's feeling the impact of the tax, “Every time I go out for lunch or dinner or to golf, I have to pay that extra seven-percent on everything – I find it quite excessive.”
------------------------

One of those faux pas that people make every now and then. Not exactly what I would call your typical fixed income type of person ..... Sounds very hard done by if this is the best he can do to talk about the "hardships" of being on fixed income .... is that a $5,000/month fixed income we are talking about?

The extremely poor turnout of only 70 souls sure doesn't jive with Allen's statement that "...their constituents are against this 100-percent."

Lets keep this issue in focus. The turn-out may have been poor due to different circumstance, however the referendum petition for PG MacKenzie had in excess of 7000 signatures.


This tax is not complicated., Those people who will benefit from it and make some money will support it, along with some die hard Liberals. Those people who will pay the additonal taxes every year, will probably vote against it.

Any dummy who would vote for a $1000.00 a year tax increase should have his head examined.

We are going to be inundated with ;propaganda for the next year until the Liberals can find a way to get out of this bind, however at the end of the day they are **fried**

They have no intention of getting rid of the HST except in name. Campbell has merely said that if there is a simple majority he will consider it binding. So he then delays for another year before he recinds the tax, and then he implements a different tax with a different name.

What the Liberals have said about the referendum.

1. Campbell ** I will abide by a simple majority and recind the tax.

2. Colin Hansen. We will not rebate any taxes because it would be administratably impossible.

3. Colin Hansen. We will not pass the Vanderzalm bill in the Legislature.

4. Campbell. We will not open up the Elections BC Act and make the binding legislation legal. **Trust me**

Whats missing??? No mention of re-instating the PST which is in Vanderzalms bill.

So if you dont pass Vanderzalms bill then you are not legally obliged to re-instate the PST. If you do not re-instate the PST then the Government is still short $1.8 Billion per year. Where do you think they will get this money.

I suspect that Campbell will be long gone before this issue finally plays out, and that a new leader will not feel pressured to abide by any of his shenanigans, and will simply come up with the same tax under a different name.

Recall is the only way to try and force this bloody Government to deal with this issue now. Not one or two years from now.

For those who are against the HST I say keep up the work. To try and fail is much better than not trying at all.

For those who want to vote for a tax increase that was brought forward without any debate or input by the Citizens of BC, and want to continue with taxation without representation, I say go for it.

Why dont you phone Pat and tell him that you will work on his Re-call committee, and you will volunteer some time and money to ensure that he remains in office. Im sure he will appreciate your efforts.

In fact why dont you organize a **We love Pat Bell Rally** in front of his office and see how many people you can get to go.


Gus. How much money people have, and what they spend it on is their business. Just because you have an income and chose to spend it in certain ways, doesnt give the Government or anyone else the right to tax you. This issue hasnt got anything to do with income. It has everthing to do with excessive taxation, and Government stupidity.

Have a nice day.



Pat Bell was golfing to raise money for Mackenzie conselling( according to his email. So maybe a little better planning would help ensure he could be there.
Personally I'm not happy with they way the HST was introduced.
In march Pat bent over backwards to try to help me at 9:00 on a Friday night. He also called another minister that night to see what could be done.
I'm not a card carrying member. You can count me out for my X on a recall.
"This issue hasnt got anything to do with income. It has everthing to do with excessive taxation"

Excessive taxation?

That is a new one on me. What is excessive taxation? Please define.

Hint.

Is it excessive for certain classes of individuals?

Is it excessive because citizens pay more than corporations?

Is it excessive because you do not want to pay down debt as it has been done for close to a decade before the recession set in? I am suggesting that as one of the possibilities because there was a sector of people who were accusing the government, both provincial and federal of collecting too much tax since they were a able to pay down some debt.

This is all over the map, Palopu. I have to ask myself how united is the anti tax group? Seems everyone has a different story to tell.

Do you want to keep rural schools open?

Do you want better medical care?

Do you want improved social services?

Do you want to privatize all those government services to get the government costs out of the system?

Do you want the province to stop downloading on municipal governments.

Do you want corporate taxes to be higher such as they are in the USA and China?

Or do you want corporate taxes to be lower and personal income taxes to be higher such as they are in most European countries?

There are so many god dammed systems .... come on, pick one and let us know which it is.

What is YOUR solution to make this a Utopia? And where does it exist now?

Or are you just a contrarian .... against everything that moves ...... In other words. Come on, put your fix it hat on for once if you have one!!!!!!
You have to be in his riding to vote boomer. In any case, recall is doable but for what result? I don't think for one second they would hang thier heads in shame if they were recalled. They will still get the golden pension and laugh all the way through retirement. Right now they are sitting around a caviar dish and discussing our stupidity.
Gus excessive taxation, Hydro rates going up to pay the obscene IPP contracts. The carbon tax for a corrupted science. So don't forget those taxes.

Boomer the recall is more about bringing government into line.
It wasn't the nicest day for a rally. Why would Eric Allen hold this rally where there are no citizens mulling around? There's a better chance Bell is at Wal Mart than his office, which is pretty well hidden and folks driving on the bypass should be looking where they are driving rather than waving at protesters. Hold the rallys where there are some people instead of an empty office with a 6 car parking lot.
Boomer. That is the Pat Bell I know. If he has a fault, it is that he promises individuals too much on occasion, something beyond his authority and time constraints. But he tries when other set bureaucratic hurdles in the way.

Does he support the government he is part of? Of course. In my world that is the way our system is supposed to work. It is designed that way. It is not like City Council where it is every Councillor for themselves.

Does he support his constituents? Only Pat Bell can be the judge of that. He hears the people and he has to make a judgement call. THAT is what his duty is.

Like everyone else, he gets JUDGED by the electorate every four years and he is either in or out.

Now there is recall legislation in place and that has opened up a whole Pandora's Box. The looser in the previous election get another chance to try to win. It takes the focus of government off the business of governing and puts us more into the realm of the USA where electioneering goes on virtually 50%+ of the time and the business of governing looses in the end.

I fear worse is yet to come no matter which party is in power. The system is disintegrating, in my opinion.
"The carbon tax for a corrupted science"

I really do not give a chit about the science. The fact is that oil is getting too expensive when we have to use tar sands and shale to add to the conventional oil still available elsewhere.

You know as well as I do that Europe and some other parts of the world have had considerably higher tax on oil for decades. it has not shut down their ability to compete. In fact, many, including me, feel that it has increased their ability to compete. They have developed technology that other parts of the world are now buying from them to reduce their dependency on oil.

This is not about climate change for me. Nor was it about climate change for Europe when they increased their taxation. Nor was moving to ethanol in Brazil about climate change. It was about the first oil crisis and how to mitigate the results of the next one.

It was about SMART taxation. If you can't engineer your way out, and you can't educate your way out because people are too dumb to understand, then you have to enforce your way out - increase taxes or ration it. Simple!!!!
At least they could have stood where people have to stop at a light rather than where they are busy driving and still going 60 or so clicks an hour. If they would have stood on all 4 corners of the busiest intersection in town, Domano and Hwy 16, they would have gotten more people and been able to almost look them square in the eye when they were stopped and get some body language feedback and assessed how a random group of individuals representative of the Saturday box store shoppers in this town actually react.

Bet you bottom dollar that less than 10% of the population realizes Pat Bell's office is even located at that spot.

It looks to me that they need some politically savvy people in that organization to make sure that they get the biggest bang for their volunteer time rather than wasting it?
Gus. All your arguments have been used a thousand times to justify tax increases, or maintain the tax systems that are in place.

I dont have the time or the inclination to spend on politicians why lie and connives to justify all the spending that they do.

BC has sufficient tax money to fund every bloody program they have and still have billions left over. The problems is spending, and over spending.

One small example would be paying the directors, etc; of BC rail $500,000.00 per year for the past 5 years, or paying the CEO of BC Hydro a million a year plus, or setting up the BC Transmission Corp as a separate entity from BC Hydro, and giving a cushy job to the C.E.O., and the having folded back into Hydro. The NDP state this BS cost $100 Million dollars, the Liberals stated it only cost $7 Million.

What about the $3 Billion dollars that ICBC has in reserve, even though a number of actuarys state that $1.5 Billion would be more than sufficient.,What about the $8/9 Billion that ICBC has in investments. How much money has the Goverment skimmed off Hydro and ICBC over the years.

What about the $500 Million (from the sale of BC Rail) that the Government transferred to the Northern Trust Initiative so that they could loan it out at low, or no interest, to who ever they hell they chose.

What about the $33 Million pissed away on a bloody, stupid Airport Runway Expansion, or $15 Million that will be spent on totally unneeded Energy System. What about the huge dollars being spent of 97 South when traffic has decreased at least 30/40% in the last 10 years.

Then of course we have the Olympics, BC Place Stadium, BC Transit, which eats up hundreds of millions through its incompetent administration. Then of course we have the other 25 Government entities such as the BCLC Board, BC Lotteries Corp, BC Ferries, Powerex, and the list goes on.

Eliminate Government waste, and get rid of the high rollers that have been feeding at the trough for the past 10/20 years, and you would have more than sufficient money to run all your programs.

Our problems is poor Government management, Government waste, and a complete and total lack of appreciation for taxpayers, or their money.

Its time to wake up and smell the roses. If you have lot of time on your hands you can look at a list of Government deputy ministers, employees, etc;, and what they get paid, and you might begin to get an inkling as to where the real problem is.

There is no way on earth that anyone can defend the spending of the four levels of Government in Canada. We have been suckered into working to support bloated, inefficient Goverments, rather that having lean, intelligent Governments working for us.

Axe the Tax.

The antiTax group is against anymore increases in taxes, and fiscal responsibility in Government. Is this to much to ask for in an enlightened society.

Lampreys attach themselves to the belly of a shark and suck out its blood. The shark does all the work, and the lamprey gets fat by doing nothing. Taxpayers are the sharks, so use your imagination and figure out who are the Lampreys.

Have a nice day.
Palopu; you gotta stop telling us to have a nice day. I all ready made plans and I'm sticking to them. OH yeah, when I was taking Engish 300, the prof told us that nice was not a 'nice' word unless describing the female form. LOL

Nice Rant tho. I liked it.
You can count me in on recall.

We should have a law on double taxation of income, as the HST is not an input credit for costs of employees, but machinery and other goods are... yet they call this a goods tax... its not a value added tax or a profit tax... its a tax on the full cost of labor including the taxes paid on labor taxing taxes and other employee benefits... its a tax on a gross revenue and not on value added or profits. Its a tax that will kill the productivity efficiency of employing Canadians (thus lowering the economic cycle that employs many), and benefits no one other than large multinational resource exporters and companies that don't rely heavily on employee costs as part of their operating budget.

Its a very very bad tax not only from the perspective of employee productivity (as a share of the companies value gap), but also morally from the perspective of taxing companies not making profits or value, but simply employing people.

Its one thing to have to pay 12% tax on a purchase of a service, but to know that this is a tax paid on the benefits and taxes an employer and employee are already paying for their employment... is beyond the pale as far as I am concerned.
My god people. Are things perfect for any Government.
Stop the sniveling over the HST and move on. We would be far, far worse off with an NDP Government and you all know that.
You all know that!
If the remainder of the people of Prince George are as wishy/washy about subjects as some people on this site,then I can understand why only seventy people showed up.Give the liberals a year,and they will have all kinds of people convinced the HST is just the saviour of all things economically.I see Gus always covers his ass by never really taking a firm position on most subjects,unless it relates to city planners,permits,or council
I like what the present government has been doing in respect to infrastructure: Airports, bridges, highways, new schools, new hospitals, etc - all real tangible assets, many urgently needed and supported by federal government grants which were made available!

I look at the spending and long term debt and I come to the conclusion that at least we have something to show for!

There was a whole NDP decade and spending as if there was no tomorrow and new debt and deficits with hardly anything to show for!

We barely got lane lines painted on the poorly maintained highways, for instance!

If people want to go back to THAT, well, go for it!
I didn't like the NDP either, but at least the NDP gave UNBC to Prince George.
I do live in Pat's riding. Until the system is changed nothing will change. NDP , Liberal or the banana party. Until we get off our collective asses and do something it will stay the same.
Now if you'll excuse I have to get ready for my next weeks work. Nobody is going to do it for me.











Palopu I understand your rant, but what pay level do you suggest? How do you make adjustments when the private sector pays much more for the same responsibility.

Gus oil is not going away for transportation for a long time yet. Europe has had high taxes on fuel to pay for infrastructure. We could do the same here but at what social cost. In Europe one can just about spit to the next town whereas in North America we are dealing with distance and distance equals cost. Sure other countries have vast distances also but not much in infrastucture and I don't think we want their standard of living.

As the rest of the world developes oil North America is supposed to shut down, right. The Gulf oil spill, countries like Russia and China are drilling in the same area, think they will shut down. Russia is building eight huge nuclear floating power stations to power their oil development of the Arctic which by the way they say belongs to them. I am sure they will be enviromentally friendly. We may need more than 65 new fighters.

China is restricting the sale of rare earth metals which is needed for all of our so called green technology and electronic devices and cornering the market on so called green tech. while at the same time putting a new coal fired power plant on line once a week on average. Oh lets not leave out expanding their military big time.

So it would be nice to shut down the oil sands, which is only one third the size of BC's biggest clearcut the lower mainland by the way. So will where that leave us while the rest of the world goes flat out?

I guess we will live in our little garden of Eden and the rest of the world will ignore us.
If people could get past their bias against the NDP, they might realize the libs are the same. It's a 2headed monster. Each head has a different outlook and a different diet, but they are the same. The top is still taking the cream from the workers. No new mines in 10 yrs, BC rail, BC hydro Accenture failure and waste, child poverty, mills going down, campaign lies and corpocracy.
Does anybody have some real #s to look at for GDP, debt to GDP, debt etc.
Not an NDP cheerleader, just saying don't be a hater, it'll blind you.
"I didn't like the NDP either, but at least the NDP gave UNBC to Prince George."

Totally incorrect! Do some research! The UNBC establishment legislation was passed during the last month of Bill Vanderzalm's Socred government. It also made the initial funding available together with the legislation.

In fact it was Vanderzalm's determination together with the support from local people that made it a reality - against those who wanted a new university elsewhere! And there were plenty of those.

In fact, I was a founding contributor.

Just give credit for the fact that the NDP (often reluctantly) just continued something which was already well underway.

71 mill closures, raw log exports up 3000%.
PrinceGeorge says, "I look at the spending and long term debt and I come to the conclusion at least we have something to show for!"

.....and if we re-elect them again PrinceGeorge, I am sure Mr Campbell will give away those long term assets as well to some other "CN Rail" type company.
Well Gus you gave us the usual irrelevant information. I might suggest that at the next Eric Allen protest gathering that you attend and practice your political skills at that time .

You are also the person that thinks City taxes are OK and not to high compared with other cities our size. Oh and tell us where do you stand on an increase in the minimum wage ? Will you be making a presentation to the committee that has been proposed by our Mayor on the minimum wage issue.?
Cheers
Considering that the anti-HST group is a volunteer group of people from all walks of life, who spent close to 6 Months working on the petition and collecting approx 18000 signatures in the 3 ridings, plus spending their own money, they can hold a Rally anywhere they bloody well please. I doubt if they need instructions from non-participators.

The overall collection of 700,000 signatures over 10% in 85 ridings was a historical success, and basically put the Liberals on notice that they have a serious problem with this tax.

People are running this Campaign on less than a shoe string, and for all intents and purposes have been very successful to date.

For those people who want to pay the additonal taxes to the Government, I say by all means do so. Send them a bloody cheque to-day. However for those who are against the tax, I say, continue to protest.

If this issue is not dealt with by the Liberals very soon, then it will cost them the next election. If they want any chance at all of saving their asses, then they better come down to earth and start dealing with the issue.

The issue of re-call has nothing to do with Pat Bell or Shirley Bonds performance as MLA's, it has everything to do with the fact, that they are supporting Campbell, Hansen, and Big Business at the expense of taxpayers.

So the question is. Who represents us on this issue.?????? If these MLA's refuse to stand up for their constituents on this issue, and just repeat the party line on the instructions of Mr. **Trust me** Campbell, then they should be re-called.

Gus;-"Excessive taxation? That is a new one on me. What is excessive taxation? Please define."
------------------------------------------

Excessive taxation is anything collected from the public over and above the ACTUAL costs of providing, through government expenditure, those goods and services needed or desired by the public.

Taxation can be viewed as the price that government exacts from us for those things we have, for various reasons, deemed to best be provided by government.

The question then becomes, "How is that price arrived at?" Obviously, by adding up all the costs to get the total that must then be recovered.

In private enterprise, there will be a division of costs between those that are 'Operating' and those that are 'Capital'. With the former being recovered through prices in roughly the same fiscal period they've been incurred. One year, generally.

While with the latter, 'Capital' costs, these will be EXPENSED. And be recovered over a much longer period, generally divided over many years, and corresponding roughly to the time it takes the 'Capital' Asset acquired (plant, equipment, machinery, buildings, etc.), to wear out.

This latter is NOT done in government in the same way it is done in private enterprise.

Instead, the concept with government is the absolute desirability of having a "balanced Budget" ~ which means, and can only mean, if we are not to load up future generations with ever increasing debt, (and, Gus, ever increasing taxes to service that debt), that each Budget must be balanced from TAXATION alone, not from further, additional LOANS.

This puts us in the rather interesting position of having to FULLY recover ALL 'Capital' expenditure made by government in the SAME fiscal period it was distributed. One year, in other words.

So the new road, or hospital, or school, or ferry ~ all things lasting for multiple years into the future, is going to be FULLY paid for by the public, through taxes, ALL in the SAME year it was constructed?

Can you imagine Jimmy Pattison constructing a new Save-On Foods supermarket, a store that might have a life-span of, say, twenty years, charging the FULL Capital costs of its construction into the prices he'll collect from the public in ONE year on all the goods it sells?

He'd never get a customer!

His prices would be considered EXCESSIVE, even if he sold everything at cost! Cost figured THAT way!

Yet that's exactly what we're dealing with in government, (along with all the other excesses and waste so abley outlined by Palopu). Taxation is not only excessive, it's utter ROBBERY under an accounting system that operates like that. We need to cut the waste and excesses, absolutely, but we need proper bookkeeping in government just as much if not more. Bookeeping that shows us the ASSETS we collectively own, and OUR 'CAPITAL' that monetarily represents them, not just the LIABILITIES we're asked to continually make good through increasingly excessive taxation.

The anti-hst sentiment and recall campaigns are just the start of a bigger movement which wants Governments to focus upon the needs of the taxpayers rather than the wants of all of the special interest groups in our country.

During the last several decades the taxpayers (generally speaking)in this country have been distracted because they have been (having a great time?) feasting on all of the easy credit which was made available to them, while at the same time there was a massive free for all going on the taxpayers' "cookie jar."
Socredible.

From your posts on this site, I can tell that you know more about how our financial system (and accounting) works than 99% of the people out there.

Earlier you posted the following, (I believe I have seen you make the same or similar points on this topic on this site in the past.)

".....but we need proper bookkeeping in government ......... Bookeeping that shows us the ASSETS we collectively own, and OUR 'CAPITAL' that monetarily represents them, not just the LIABILITIES we're asked to continually make good through increasingly excessive taxation."

One of these Fridays could you please post a simplified version of this statement on this site. I do not understand what the above means.
"I see Gus always covers his ass by never really taking a firm position on most subjects,unless it relates to city planners,permits,or council"

I tend not to repeat myself as often as Palopu.

I have gone on record here as opposing the HST. Why? Because, as I have previously written:

1. there is no proof that it will do what it is supposed to do.
2. it will not be provable after the tax has been in place whether it did what it was expected to do
3. there is already proof that so called "savings" are not being passed through to the consumer, such as in the food services sector.
4. it is one tax system that is not applicable in the same fashion to ALL sectors of the economy (see exceptions that have been made in the ECU over the last decade as proof of that, especially the recent one in the food services sector)
5. in some cases it is a tax transfer from corporations to the general public.
6. it is a tax which impacts poorer people proportionately more than the middle calls and the high earners and thus will increase the widening income gap between rich and poor.

I am not going to the notion that the MLAs lied about the knowledge prior to the election, partly because there is no clear definition of which MLAs knew, and what it is that they knew. None of the reports I have seen in the media are clear on that.

I do not have to use ad hominem attacks to support my opinion that this is a bad tax.

After all that, would I ask for a referendum on the HST. Sure. I support that. The government, in my view, did not do their due diligence, both for exploring the facts around the actual performance of the tax as well as taking a poll of the people for such a major shift. So, congrats to those who went on that campaign and congrats to the party in power for going to a simple majority of votes rather than registered voters system

After all that, would I recall anyone? Of course not!!! The people voted a right of center party into power. That is what I expect of a right of center party when it comes to taxation. Reduce taxes from corporations and swing them over to the general population. No big surprise to me.

The people gave that party the mandate to govern for 4 years. To recall them for acting like a right of center government is going back on an agreement. The implicit agreement in any democracy is that the majority view forms government and the rest abide by that view until the next election.

That is why I am hard on those who feel that MLAs should be recalled.

Lost it all, the NDP shouldn't have siphoned off (used as a cash cow) profits from some crown corporations (BC Rail, BC Hydro, ICBC etc) and even forced them to take on debt for other purposes only to have the money disappear into general revenue.

BC Rail is a prime example. Finally debt and inability to modernize became convenient excuses to get rid of it.

*Creative bookkeeping* it is called! It kind of ties in with what Charles and Socredible are saying.

It is very a deceptive practice to run two kinds of bookkeeping at the same time - as a province and as the taxpayers we are all responsible for ALL the debt and interest charges, no matter WHERE a government tries to hide it.

My opinion, of course. Nobody has to agree, I don't care.

You can see the history of the creation of UNBC here:

http://www.unbc.ca/unbchistory/index.html

"On January 9, Minister Strachan made a formal statement that the government had accepted the IPG recommendations: that a university was to be established in the north with a main campus in Prince George. On June 22, the Provincial Legislature passed Bill 40, The UNBC Act ... "

That is the problem with these kind of sites, too many people are functionally illiterate. They have not clue of what goes on around them to the extent that they cannot even agree on "facts" and move onto some meaningful discussions.
Seamutt ....
"We could do the same here but at what social cost"

You asked the question, and then provided a whole bunch of "the sky is falling" arguments about what other countries are doing.

So tell me, what would the outcome be? What would be the social cost?

Keep in mind that the urban corridors where 2/3 of the population of Canada lives and commutes every day is not unlike European densities. Quebec City to Windsor is an Urban strip less than 50km wide on average and 1,000 km long. The other major centers are Winnipeg, Edmonton-Calgary Corridor and the GVRD which total about 6 to 7 million for 1/6 the population that is spread far apart.

On top of that, the Ontario-Quebec corridor is intimately and closely connected with the largest agglomeration of urban USA density along the Northeastern Coast which is also of similar density to Europe and has even cheaper gasoline than Canada's even though they do not have enough domestic oil.

So do not give me an argument about the costs of supplying Iqaluit or other remote areas of Canada. We can deal with the 10% of what are essentially rural and remote communities. Let us deal with the real issue of where the fuel is burnt. They are very similar to where fuel is burnt in Europe.

Put your thinking cap on and try a little harder to not present poorly thought through arguments. Try to define the problem and solve it rather than merely defending the status quo.
burned ..... :-)
Retired ....

1. There are many cities whose taxes are higher than ours. I realize that there are several on this site that are functionally illiterate about how to determine the answer to that question in an equitable fashion. So be it.

2. Eric Allen and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to how to do things and why to do things. It is unlikely that he and I will ever be standing on street corners. In fact, the very effectiveness of standing on street corners for such a purpose is questionable on my mind.

3. My minimum wage position. Simple. Get rid of it and put it into legislation tied to union agreements such as some European counties. Watch the politically right people on here attack that and the politically left people sit there with open mouths..... LOL
Can someone (namely Palupo) please show me a breakdown of thier math that says this will cost an average family $2000 per year? (although I see you only said $1000 above so are starting to question your own numbers) Anyway, I have several kids and eat out a fiar amount and for the life of me I cannot figure out how the HST would add that much. I know I will pay that much in HST for sure, but it isnt that much MORE than I would have paid before with GST and PST. So PLEASE show a breakdown, not just spew out fear mongering numbers.
Ps - most people have realized that it is not the big bad bogie man and that is why the whole recall issue is dead. No one will actually be recalled, sorry...
1990: "On January 9, Minister Strachan made a formal statement that the government had accepted the IPG recommendations: that a university was to be established in the north with a main campus in Prince George. On June 22, (again, 1990)the Provincial Legislature passed Bill 40, The UNBC Act ... "

1991: The provincial election was in the fall of 1991.

Draw your conclusion as to who established UNBC.

But, I think the "big bad boogie man" interceptor, is a liar!

And that interceptor, is why recall is required, "sorry"....
But, I think the "big bad boogie man" interceptor, is a liar!

And that interceptor, is why recall is required, "sorry"....
To Gus and PrinceGeorge,

The deal was signed by the Socreds, but it was the BC NDP who made it happen. We all know they could have stopped it, but they didn't.

You can't very well give the Socred's credit for it since their party was decimated after losing to the NDP. Hell, it was Harcourt who was there when the ground was broken.

I'm not so sure the Liberals would have allowed it to go through if it were happening today. How many schools have been shuttered since Campbell got elected? The public good doesn't seem to be on the Liberal's agenda at all.

You guys should see if you can get in on that junket to China. Maybe you can score a nice fat deal for more raw log exports to China and close a few more mills in town. Those stupid unionized millworkers make too much money anyway, the world would be a better place if we could buy our trusses for half price because they're made by uneducated villagers in another part of the world who have to pimp their kids out to put food on the table.

Hey, these ad hominem attacks are fun, aren't they guys?
You CAN very well give the Socreds credit, Pojeb, for it WAS their initiative that got the UNBC project underway. As well as the long awaited Inland Island Highway, that replaced the overloaded goat trail Vancouver Islanders suffered with for years.

The NDP exhibited rare wisdom in continuing both projects to completion. Though some of their 'penny-pinching' in regards to the actual engineering and construction of the new Island Highway , (so they could splurge a bit more in the 'social engineering' department with it), is now coming back to cost us.

Old Flyin' Phil might have been a slippery character himself, but HIS roads had enough crown on them to shed water, and they stood up.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that ALL former BC Socreds are now BC Liberals. A good many of us are NOT, and NEVER will be. The two hold completely different philosophies ~ and that's now becoming more apparent every day. it's truly unfortunate that the NDP didn't make Corky Evans their leader when they had the chance. He's far closer to many of the original ideas of the 'real' Socreds than that Campbell crowd will ever be.

BTW, it was also a BC Socred initiative to have a provision for BINDING Citizen Initiated Referenda enshrined in Law, and we've the Harcourt NDP to thank for enacting the cumbersome limited process we've just struggled through as the first step in reigning in a tin-pot dictator.

socredible,

The Social Credit party was a better party than either the Liberals or the NDP. I have not said anything back about the Social Credit Party here. I have seen and glanced through a very old and dusty copy of the BC Social Credit party's book which I overall agreed with. It's a pity they never were able to put into practice what their platform mandated, but a provincial party can't change federal law.

Some good Socreds jumped onto the Liberal bandwagon, I'll bet they wish they hadn't now.

But besides all of this, the Socreds are long gone, and it was the BC NDP who saw UNBC through. It doesn't matter who starts something, it's who finishes it that matters.

And who got us stuck paying for the Vancouver 2010 games again?
"It doesn't matter who starts something, it's who finishes it that matters."

Not in my book!

He who plants a tree deserves credit for starting the project 'tree.' If someone else waters it later on and looks after it he deserves credit for that. If the person who planted the tree in the first place had not done so the other person wouldn't have had a tree to look after.

Plain and straight forward.

Whoever, Pojeb, it's US who'll finish paying for them. Or our kids, or grandkids.
Anyone seen any stats on how the HST is affecting new and used car and truck sales in PG?
Up or down?
I know it has made me re-think buying, until I see where this is all going.
Interceptor. The statement I usually make in regards to the increased cost to a family is as follows. **Taxes will increase between $600.00 to $2000.00 depending on your spending**

The $1000.00 figure is a rough average. It cannot be totally accurate because I do not have access to peoples spending, however I can give you some examples.

1. If you spend $60.00 per week in restaurants, you will pay $218.40 extra.

2. If you buy a seaon Hockey ticket you will pay $35.00 extra

3. Additonal cost for a golf game would be $2.80 and if you and your spouse played 20 games a year you would pay $112.00

4. Hair cuts at $20.00 at pop will rise by $1.40 @ 6 per year extra is $8.40
I unintentionally posted the above message before I was finished, however you get the drift. On the items listed above you will pay $373.00 extra per year.

That is only 4 items. The tax actually applies on 70 items so it is not hard to see an increase of $1000.00.

I will at a later date try and get a more comprehensive example.

Some items it applies on.

1. Movies/Theatres
2. Membership Fees
3. Investment Councelling Fees
4. Magazines/Newspapers
5. Airline Tickets
6. Taxi Fares
7. Resort Packages
8. Coffee shops
9. Dry Cleaning
10.School Supplies.

The list goes on. There are still an additional 56 items it applies on that I havent listed.

People really need to sit down and do some calculating to see what this tax applies on. You can go to Fight HST.com and get a list. Or you can go to the Government website and get a list. The Government list gives you both what it does and doesnt apply on, and it is mixed to-gether to make it more difficult to read, in addition it doesnt list all the items.

Another simple way to get an idea on how much is will cost, is to take the number used by Carole Taylor former Liberal Finance Minister who stated that this is $1.8 Billion dollar tax transfer from Business and Corporations to consumers.

Once you eliminate those people who will get a rebate on this tax of approx $260.00 per year you have approx 3 Million people left in BC to pay the tax.

3 Million divided into 1.8 billion gives you is $600.00, but of course we know that most people will spend more than that.

The only way you will be able to determine how much you pay will be to get a list of what the tax applies on and work it out.

You can rest assured that the figures you are getting from Mr **Trust Me** Campbell are bogus.
I unintentionally posted the above message before I was finished, however you get the drift. On the items listed above you will pay $373.00 extra per year.

That is only 4 items. The tax actually applies on 70 items so it is not hard to see an increase of $1000.00.

I will at a later date try and get a more comprehensive example.

Some items it applies on.

1. Movies/Theatres
2. Membership Fees
3. Investment Councelling Fees
4. Magazines/Newspapers
5. Airline Tickets
6. Taxi Fares
7. Resort Packages
8. Coffee shops
9. Dry Cleaning
10.School Supplies.

The list goes on. There are still an additional 56 items it applies on that I havent listed.

People really need to sit down and do some calculating to see what this tax applies on. You can go to Fight HST.com and get a list. Or you can go to the Government website and get a list. The Government list gives you both what it does and doesnt apply on, and it is mixed to-gether to make it more difficult to read, in addition it doesnt list all the items.

Another simple way to get an idea on how much is will cost, is to take the number used by Carole Taylor former Liberal Finance Minister who stated that this is $1.8 Billion dollar tax transfer from Business and Corporations to consumers.

Once you eliminate those people who will get a rebate on this tax of approx $260.00 per year you have approx 3 Million people left in BC to pay the tax.

3 Million divided into 1.8 billion gives you is $600.00, but of course we know that most people will spend more than that.

The only way you will be able to determine how much you pay will be to get a list of what the tax applies on and work it out.

You can rest assured that the figures you are getting from Mr **Trust Me** Campbell are bogus.