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Moe Sihota Says NDP Need To Talk Economy

By 250 News

Sunday, November 07, 2010 06:00 AM

Dancers from the Punjabi Social Club perform at PG NDP 'Presidential' dinner

Prince George, B.C. - The President of the B.C. New Democrats, Moe Sihota, says it's time for party members to "stop looking at their shoes" when asked about economic policy...

Speaking to approximately 90 people at a 'Presidential' dinner organized by the Prince George New Democrats last night, Sihota says the NDP has lost eight out of the last 11 elections.  He says there are a number of reasons, but he wants to deal with one, specifically.  "We, for some reason, don't talk about the economy."

Sihota says NDP MLAs can talk about a whole range of social issues, but they should, and have to, start talking about the economy if the party is to make gains.  He says the HST has brought about the biggest tax shift in history -- taking it from the large corporations and placing it directly on individuals -- and it's fractured Liberal support. 

The party president says there's no doubt the tax has benefited large corporations in forestry and mining, but it's had a punitive effect on small businesses and the average taxpayer.  "And I do think that there's a political opportunity for us as New Democrats to reach out to that sector, the small business sector, and try to get them to take a look at us as a political alternative because I don't think that there's anything that we could bring about that would be as injurious as the HST."

He says he has no doubt the tax will be gone, if not through the change in Liberal leadership, then as a result of next September's referendum.  And Sihota says the party must have a firm economic strategy in place to reach out to the disenfranchised with -- he says there are five things the NDP must do:

  1. change attitudes:  Sihota says business, labour, and First Nations can't be put in seperate rooms -- they must unite and find a common framework to build on
  2. invest in education:  explain and argue with people that the economy is predicated on investments in education
  3. resolve aboriginal land claims to remove uncertainty
  4. do better at marketing the province
  5. design policy that benefits both jobs and the environment

"I think we have enough to say to people that we can say with a level of pride as New Democrats that, 'Look, we have a framework for the economy that will allow for jobs and for growth.'  Sihota adds, "And we should also not look at our shoes anymore when people criticize as the 'dark, doom, dismal decade of the 1990s' because, you know, by any objective measurement that simply wasn't the case."

Sihota offers a comparison between stats between the decade the New Democrats were in office through the 1990s, to the past decade with the Liberals in power:

                                              NDP                                       Liberals

new jobs created:                   344,000                                    394,000

GDP growth:                              3%                                         2.8%

UE rate:                                   6.6%                                        7.3%

Debt:                                     up $14b                                    up $11b

deficit budgets:  same number for both governments

"We have nothing to apologize for, in the 10-years we looked after the economy, it performed precisely as it should," says the former NDP MLA.  "In the 10-years, these guys have had, it's performed no better than what it did under the NDP, so we should stop taking it on the chin and look people in the eye and stop apologizing."

The now-Party President says it's time to develop an economic platform that engages and motivates people and it's time to put an end to all the sniping and fully back leader Carole James -- he says if the New Democrats can do that, they can win the next election.


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Comments

Moe skilfully avoids mentioning the fact that the last ten years include the worst global recession since the Great Depression and the USA/Canada/Europe/Japan are still not out of it yet, in fact there is now talk of deflation and more bad news to come!

Thankfully such a global downturn did not occur during his party's ten years in power - nevertheless, the Liberals took over a province that had slid from #1 best province in Canada to #10, dead last and Have-Not status!

As usual, it is not what a politician says but what a politician does NOT say that is the real truth!

The old sleight of hand still seems to be able to trick and vow a crowd!

It's magic! No wonder they decided to dust of the skeleton in the closet and bring it back to lead once more!
People seem to have vey short memories when it come to the NDP and what they did to this province.
Memories, yea we have short memories, otherwise we would not be voting in any of the existing political parties.

Reaching back in my memories, I remember Moe Sihota was (twice?) due to ethical issues, forced to step down. Can’t recall the exact details, but question why they would be bring him out again given his background.

Anyone want to refresh my memory as to the blunders he made in the past, that are eluding me, and he is hoping we all have forgotten?
just google his name and put scandals behind it
The NDP could apologize for all the money wasted on the fast cat ferries....
Moe Sihota does a damn poor job of hiding the fact that Carole James needs to go.
He doesn't have the stones to actually say it,but his message is clear.
What isn't clear...is what is he doing back in politics?
Why would the NDP take him back into the fold with his track record?
And why would they let him start speaking publically for the party
With his dubious past,why would anyone of sound mind vote for him?
Google this guy!
My guess is with Carole James gone,this self-serving opportunist will take a run at the leadership.
That will dispose of any hope the NDP has of winning any election.
The NDP has a very serious problem with priorities and they are going to pay for that...again!
I think he made a phone call about a limo license.

Prince George, I think u over estimate ur knowledge about economics. 'there is now talk of deflation'?? there is also talk about inflation and also talk of a nuclear war with N. korea and Iran.
I don't like this guy at all.He did a lot of things back then to hurt the Province.As to his number comparison,at least he did not come out with inflated numbers in the NDP's favour.My one problem with some of your comments is the fact that Moe says exactly what a lot of people have been posting on here,about the NDP coming up with some economic policy,and some people still bitch about it.I believe some people are right when they say nothing will make a certain segment of you happy.If you believe that Gordo is done,he still has, most likely, six months to inflict his punishment,and if Kevin Falcon wins the leadership race,watch out for all hell to break loose.As for the deflation thing,it was predicted by two leading economists and would result in another collapse of the world's economy.I will wait and see and not begin to panic yet,as we all know how well they did the first time around.
Moe Sihota has far too many skeletons in his closet to be in the running for Carol James's job, should she decide to vacate it. He'd be a the BC Liberal's fondest dream come true if they were running against him as NDP Leader. It wouldn't take their well-paid researchers long to dig up more dirt on him that the general public has no clue about, and get it publicised. Regardless, if you read what he's saying above, it's obvious that it's the same old policy he's advocating. There's nothing new coming from him, any more than there is from the present NDP Leader.

How about we have a Party, any Party, that comes out and clearly explains the difference between 'inflation' and 'prosperity', and tells us how they propose to induce the latter? Can the NDP do THAT?

We elect governments to "lead" HERE, not to make lame excuses about economic conditions in the rest of the world.

In the NDP's day we had the Asian meltdown. And now it's the bursting of the sub-prime mortgage housing bubble in the USA.

Do any of these things change the fact that BC, of all the Provinces of Canada, is the most physically "self-sufficent" in resources needed to ensure a higher standard of living for ALL our citizens?

We are not, by any means, a "poor" Province ~ so why should we persist with a flawed system of financial accountancy that makes out that we are?

Get a set of books in place that do as all 'finance' is supposed to do. REFLECT the FACTS, as they ACCURATELY are in BC. And get on with the job of making this place "the best place on Earth" economically for ALL who are ALREADY here.
PGDriver says, "The NDP could appologize for all the money wasted on the fast cat ferries..."

How big of a scandle was it really PGDriver?
As far as costs 3 Fast Cats were built at a proposed cost of $210 million or $70 million per vessel. The overrun was $450 million or $150 million per vessel.

The ferries were built in BC for two reasons.
1) To stimulate the shipbuilding industry in BC.
2) To improve ferry service between Horsesgoe and Departure Bays.

We all know none of this was accomplished.
The net result was BC lost $450 million less the cost of selling the 3 ferries built.

The NDP put the 3 ferries up for sale but they were not sold before the 2001 election in which the BC Liberals took office. Washington Marine Group offered $60 million for the three vessels but, the BC Liberals decided to auction the ferries instead and recieved $19.4 million from the winning bid which was, (you guessed it PGDriver) Washington Marine Group, for the 3 FastCats.

BC Liderals have a few FastCat overruns in there tenure as well PGDriver.

Perhaps the BC Liberals could appologize for a roof we are paying for that the Liberals said just before the 2009 election would cost us $365 million, only to raise the cost to $458 million right after the election. We are now at $577 million, and the roof is still not completed. And by the way, the roof cannot be closed while it is raining or windy in of all places VANCOUVER??

The BC Liberals could appologize for the Vancouver Trade and Convention Center, PGDriver.
The BC Liberals proposed cost of $495 million has ballooned to $883 million, and is the largest cost overrun of any public project in BC history.

And PGDriver lets not forget the deficit the BC Liberals told us would be $400 million prior to the 2009 election, only to be revised shortly after the election to $2.4 BILLION.

Where is my appology there PGDriver?
The Liberals could use a person like Sihota working with the NDP. The people of BC can start shaking in their boots with someone like him. Thsoe figures are very interesting. The problem is, one does not know what they mean.

GDP growth for instance. Over the period of leading government? That is laughable for both parties. Of course, the NDP was in from 1991 to 2001 while the Liberals have not been in 10 years until May 2011. So best one can do is compare the first 9 years of both, but the numbers for 2010 ar not in yeat, and in some cases the numbers fom 2009 are not quite in yet.

I'll try to put some real number out there using stats can figures. Then we will see what has really been happening and Sihota might want to crawl back under a rock.
"As for the deflation thing,it was predicted by two leading economists and would result in another collapse of the world's economy."

More than two, more like a couple of dozen.

"We elect governments to "lead" HERE, not to make lame excuses about economic conditions in the rest of the world."

It ain't that easy! Conditions in the rest of the world are of paramount importance! We depend on exports to make up for the stuff we import and to have JOBS! We do not live in isolation - and that is one of the concept realities that the NDP has never understood!

Bob Rae was one of them who never got it! He mismanaged Ontario with his anti-corporation mantras and then watched helplessly when the Canadian branch plants of US manufacturers closed and loaded their equipment on flat deck trucks and hauled it across the border where there were no such attacks on business...
get off the deflation topic. u have no idea what u are talking about.

can someone elaborate on the sihota skeletons/scandals?

evaluating the success of a government by gdp growth is probably not the best measure.
So, let me talk economics with goode olde Moe ..... LOL

I'll use one table to make my pitch. The table is from StatsCan from 1990 to 2008 as released November 9, 2009. the one including 2009 should be out shortly from the looks of it.

The reason I use that is because one can see what the general economy in Canada was doing at the same time and it makes comparisons using 2002 constant (chained) dollars. The table also has per capita figures which take population into consideration and provide figures which show the partial effect on the pocket books of the population.

My source data can be seen here:
http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/bus_stat/bcea/tab1.asp

It shows that the NDP put BC into a nosedive and that the BCLiberals fought the province's way back up again.

This is especially telling when one looks at the per capita income and disposable income.

I think that the general impression that we did worse economically against Canada under the NDP is borne out by the stats as is the general impression that we fared better ecnomically under the BCLiberals than under the BC-NDP.
First we have the GDP per capita for the NDP 10 years with the base year of 1990 from the previous government.

The numbers shown below are:
year, $/capita BC, %change over base year, $/capita Canada, %change over base year, variance from Canada in %

1990 $30,803 $29,804 3.4%
1991 $30,112 -2.2% $28,820 -3.3% 4.5%
1992 $30,044 -2.5% $28,731 -3.6% 4.6%
1993 $30,516 -0.9% $29,081 -2.4% 4.9%
1994 $30,452 -1.1% $30,146 1.1% 1.0%
1995 $30,344 -1.5% $30,674 2.9% -1.1%
1996 $30,313 -1.6% $30,846 3.5% -1.7%
1997 $30,689 -0.4% $31,832 6.8% -3.6%
1998 $30,822 0.1% $32,862 10.3% -6.2%
1999 $31,587 2.5% $34,399 15.4% -8.2%
2000 $32,823 6.6% $35,864 20.3% -8.5%

So, NDP over 10 years improved GDP/capita by 6.6% while Canada improved by 20.3%

NDP started off with GDP/capita at 3.4% higher than Canada and ended up with GDP/capita at 8.5% lower than Canada ….
-------------------------------------------

Then we have the GDP per capita for the BCLiberals 8 years with the base year of 2000 from the previous government.

The numbers shown below are:
year, $/capita BC, %change over base year, $/capita Canada, %change over base year, variance from Canada in %

2000 $32,823 6.6% $35,864 20.3% -8.5%
2001 $32,727 -0.3% $36,112 0.7% -9.4%
2002 $33,721 2.7% $36,771 2.5% -8.3%
2003 $34,309 4.5% $37,124 3.5% -7.6%
2004 $35,267 7.4% $37,922 5.7% -7.0%
2005 $36,573 11.4% $38,697 7.9% -5.5%
2006 $37,684 14.8% $39,398 9.9% -4.4%
2007 $38,176 16.3% $39,958 11.4% -4.5%
2008 $37,529 14.3% $39,648 10.6% -5.3%

So, BCLiberals over 8 years improved GDP/capita by 14.3% while Canada improved by 10.6%

BCLiberals started off with GDP/capita at -8.5% of Canada and ended up with GDP/capita at -5.3% of Canada, thus improving the situation they were left with
Second we have the income per capita for the NDP 10 years with the base year of 1990 from the previous government.

The numbers shown below are:
year, $/capita BC, %change over base year, $/capita Canada, %change over base year, variance from Canada in %

1990 $28,271 $26,712 5.8%
1991 $27,365 -3.2% $25,918 -3.0% 5.6%
1992 $27,075 -4.2% $25,828 -3.3% 4.8%
1993 $26,573 -6.0% $25,455 -4.7% 4.4%
1994 $26,463 -6.4% $25,442 -4.8% 4.0%
1995 $26,578 -6.0% $25,859 -3.2% 2.8%
1996 $26,282 -7.0% $25,758 -3.6% 2.0%
1997 $26,320 -6.9% $26,119 -2.2% 0.8%
1998 $26,435 -6.5% $26,770 0.2% -1.3%
1999 $26,795 -5.2% $27,314 2.3% -1.9%
2000 $27,726 -1.9% $28,439 6.5% -2.5%

So, NDP over 10 years reduced income/capita by 1.9% while Canada improved by 6.5%

NDP started off with income/capita at 5.8% higher than Canada and ended up with income/capita at 2.5% lower than Canada ….
-------------------------------------------

Then we have the income per capita for the BCLiberals 8 years with the base year of 2000 from the previous government.

The numbers shown below are:
year, $/capita BC, %change over base year, $/capita Canada, %change over base year, variance from Canada in %

2000 $27,726 -1.9% $28,439 6.5% -2.5%
2001 $27,742 0.1% $28,803 1.3% -3.7%
2002 $27,683 -0.2% $28,668 0.8% -3.4%
2003 $28,020 1.1% $28,986 1.9% -3.3%
2004 $29,035 4.7% $29,857 5.0% -2.8%
2005 $29,992 8.2% $30,587 7.6% -1.9%
2006 $31,797 14.7% $31,915 12.2% -0.4%
2007 $32,550 17.4% $32,886 15.6% -1.0%
2008 $33,050 19.2% $33,489 17.8% -1.3%


So, BCLiberals over 8 years improved income/capita by 19.2% while Canada improved by 17.8%

BCLiberals started off with income/capita at -2.5% of Canada and ended up with income/capita at -1.3% of Canada, thus improving the situation they were left with
Third we have the disposable income per capita for the NDP 10 years with the base year of 1990 from the previous government.

The numbers shown below are:
year, $/capita BC, %change over base year, $/capita Canada, %change over base year, variance from Canada in %

1990 $21,968 $20,830 5.5%
1991 $21,212 -3.4% $20,231 -2.9% 4.8%
1992 $20,853 -5.1% $20,115 -3.4% 3.7%
1993 $20,604 -6.2% $19,901 -4.5% 3.5%
1994 $20,395 -7.2% $19,748 -5.2% 3.3%
1995 $20,401 -7.1% $19,991 -4.0% 2.1%
1996 $20,023 -8.9% $19,783 -5.0% 1.2%
1997 $20,026 -8.8% $19,938 -4.3% 0.4%
1998 $20,038 -8.8% $20,347 -2.3% -1.5%
1999 $20,443 -6.9% $20,797 -0.2% -1.7%
2000 $21,099 -4.0% $21,643 3.9% -2.5%

So, NDP over 10 years reduced disposable income/capita by 4.0% while Canada improved by 3.9%

NDP started off with disposable income/capita at 5.5% higher than Canada and ended up with disposable income/capita at 2.5% lower than Canada ….
-------------------------------------------

Then we have the disposable income per capita for the BCLiberals 8 years with the base year of 2000 from the previous government.

The numbers shown below are:
year, $/capita BC, %change over base year, $/capita Canada, %change over base year, variance from Canada in %

2000 $21,099 -4.0% $21,643 3.9% -2.5%
2001 $21,449 1.7% $21,992 1.6% -2.5%
2002 $21,618 2.5% $22,135 2.3% -2.3%
2003 $21,891 3.8% $22,424 3.6% -2.4%
2004 $22,642 7.3% $23,070 6.6% -1.9%
2005 $23,193 9.9% $23,459 8.4% -1.1%
2006 $24,679 17.0% $24,599 13.7% 0.3%
2007 $25,137 19.1% $25,213 16.5% -0.3%
2008 $25,931 22.9% $25,963 20.0% -0.1%

So, BCLiberals over 8 years improved disposable income/capita by 22.9% while Canada improved by 20.0%

BCLiberals started off with disposable income/capita at -2.5% of Canada and ended up with income/capita at -0.1% of Canada, thus improving the situation they were left with to the extent that BC was virtually on par with Canada.
Those are all different posts with differnt numbers based on

1. GDP/capita
2. income/capita
3. disposable income/capita

Over to Moe, that econimc expert from the NDP and anyone else who might want to jump in here and stay on the topic of economics.
Taxed out wrote: "And PGDriver lets not forget the deficit the BC Liberals told us would be $400 million prior to the 2009 election, only to be revised shortly after the election to $2.4 BILLION.

Where is my appology there PGDriver?"

That is real easy, not too many governments in Canada and the world have experienced such a downturn in the economy. BC was not going to fight it like the rest of the world eventually did, by sitmulating the economy. If they would have, then we would likely have ended up worse than predicted.

At times like that one has to be prepared to move quickly.

So, getting back to Moe. Am I allowed to call his figures deceitful? Am I allowed to say he is not presenting the truth?
The Socreds built the dams.

The Socreds built the ferries.

The Socrteds built the roads.

The Socreds built this province.

The Socreds built our (CNs) railroad.

But then again they did it without bureaucracy, First Nations involvement, unions (mostly), less red tape, less environmental concerns and all the rest of the crap that interferes with doing anything anymore. By the way, that goes for this whole country. I remember C.D. Howe. Google him up.
gus, the fact is it was another lie. Note the timing of the proposed deficit, where the election fit it, pretty obvious they lied about the numbers.

Move quickly, give me a break, the economy started collapsing in 2007, the lies about the deficit were in the spring of 2009.
Call them lies ..... I told you my thoughts of why I won't call them lies.

BTW. I notice you are saying nothing about the stats I showed .....
hood rich: "get off the deflation topic. u have no idea what u are talking about."

----------------------

Only the moderator has the right to tell a contributer to get off a certain topic.

You are not the moderator so you may consider flying a kite!

"As we enter the second half of 2010--the "postcrisis" year--while markets have been obsessed with Europe's debt crisis, they have failed to notice potentially more ominous developments. The United States and Europe are heading toward--and Japan already suffers from--deflation, a classic prolonger of crises that boosts the real burden of debt and crushes profit margins.
U.S. year-over-year core inflation has dropped to 0.9 percent--its lowest level in forty-four years. The six-month annualized core consumer price index inflation level has dropped even closer to zero, at 0.4 percent. Europe's year-over-year core inflation rate has fallen to 0.8 percent--the lowest level ever reported in the series that began in 1991. Heavily indebted Spain's year-over-year core inflation rate is down to 0.1 percent. Ireland's deflation rate is 2.7 percent. As commodity prices slip, inflation will become deflation globally in short order."


Prince George:-"Conditions in the rest of the world are of paramount importance! We depend on exports to make up for the stuff we import and to have JOBS!"

-----------------------------------------
Yes, we do pay for our imports from our exports. But that pre-supposes that international trade is actually trade. Our stuff, those products of which we have a relative surplus, for someone else's alternate stuff, of which they do. And that kind of trade makes perfect sense, for it allows for the diversification of consumption in each country engaging in it.

But answer me this, if BC, (considering BC for a moment as a 'country' ~ which I think we could do, since BC is already further economically advanced than most of the world's countries that are 'countries'), CAN NOT "buy" all the goods and services it generates in any given fiscal period and fully pay for them from the total amount of wages, salaries, and profits DISTRTIBUTED in that SAME period, how then can BC buy the "exchange" of those BC produced goods and services through exporting them?

I can't see how we can. For if we're exporting more than we're importing and receiving some other country's 'money' to make up the difference, what real good is that other country's 'money' to us?

It is only "effective demand" for THAT country's goods and services. Not OURS.

But we don't want their goods and services in equal exchange for ours, we want to give them MORE in "real wealth" than what we're receiving back from them in alternate "real wealth", and receive their 'money' for the difference. Why?

As I see it, in that instance, a "job" is not a vital necessity to increasing the overall wealth of the world, or even BC, but is rather merely an excuse that's supposedly necessary to justify paying someone an income.
What really crushes "profit margins", Prince George, is not deflation. But rather the FACTS that:-

[1.] most people still derive their incomes solely from employment,

[2.] employment, overall, through ongoing labour dispacement in all its forms, is disappearing,

[3.] we currently have no way to collectively augment those incomes without increasing debt, which we can't repay,

[4.] then there is no way that the overall costs of production coming forward into product prices at the point of final retail can be fully liquidated from overall incomes which are in continual DECLINE in ratio to those costs.

When collectively, incomes decline in what they will purchase in terms of goods and services for sale on the market, even though the 'dollar' size of those incomes may have increased (as they undoubtedly have, looking at the statistics Gus provided), overall Sales at the point of final retail will be in decline from the overall Costs of Production "EXPENSED" against those Sales. And 'profit margins' will be pinched off, to the point of non-existence. This has happened, and is happening, and there will be innumberable negative effects from it as a result.

Remember, in the kind of accounting used in every business, 'profit' is NOT Receipts minus Disbursements, but rather Sales minus "Expense". "Expense" being past and present spending pushed forward in time through the rules and conventions of double-entry cost accountancy.

And Expense, with ongoing labour displacements is made up increasingly of sums of money SPENT AT SOME TIME IN THE PAST, i.e. Capital Costs, which distributed money AT THAT TIME, which, for the most part was spent as received.

Its spending, AT THAT TIME, increased 'prices' then, i.e. we got inflation. And that inflation induced the cycle of rising costs, followed again by rising prices, with everyone working with bigger figures (and trying to prove points with flawed statistics), but REALLY a lot more worse off financially than they previously were.
I am not disputing your stats gus, I supported the right all my life. I am not blinded by the fact that this supposedly fiscal free enterprize government that is in BC has a clue how to deal with money. This government was elected on the platform of fiscal responsibilty and open government, so far both those planks in the Liberal government have been a fantasy. Blaming the economic problems the province has on the worldwide economy does not explain cost overruns on every public project the BC Liberals have managed. From The Olympics, Convention Center, BC Place, Port Mann Bridge, Cariboo Connector. Those things gus, are our own BC Liberal mismanagement of money, no outside excuses.

Just because the BC Liberals say they are fiscally responsible does not mean that they actually are, gus. What else do they say gus, that you swallow, hook line and sinker?
PrinceGeorge,Andyfreeze, Socredible,PgDriver, Taxed Out !, gus---you all need to run in the next election---but then again, all of you have probably signed the papers already !!
Taxed out!, ANY government that mistakes 'inflation' for 'prosperity' is never going to be able to be fiscally responsible. They've induced the cost increases they then have to deal with, the ones that make their budgeting process completely ineffective.

And this is precisely what the Campbell Liberals have done since they took office.

It shouldn't be surprising that a guy like Campbell, who was formerly engaged in what really amounts to high-end "land-pimping", would see rising prices as a good thing. But WHO is REALLY ever advantaged? Not "we, the people", that's for damned sure.
hoodrich:-"can someone elaborate on the sihota skeletons/scandals?"
------------------------------------------
The ones we know about go back a long, long ways. The first I recall involved the propriety of listening in on a private phone conversation. One then Socred cabinet minister Bud Smith was having with someone else, and making the conversation public. Definitely an invasion of privacy.

Then there were some traffic violations, and how they'd been dealt with.

There was some action taken by the Law Society, I believe, regarding the sanctity of Moe's Trust Account as a lawyer. Don't recall the outcome of that one, but I don't think Moe is a lawyer anymore.

There were reports that he was verbally abusive to staff as a MLA and Minister.

There were some circumstances involving the paving of the road to the Mount Washington ski resort, on Vancouver Island, where Moe reportedly had a chalet.

There was obviously some "bad blood" in the Sikh community between Moe and Ujjal over the way the latter assumed the NDP leadership and became Premier after the Dan Miller interim. Don't recall the details offhand.

Moe was a talk show host on one of the Victoria TV stations after he left elected politics, and a good one. He had an interesting show, and was able to attract a wide variety of guests, including Preston Manning. Norman Spector, who was Premier Bill Bennett's guiding light at one time (unfortunately), was a regular.

I don't believe he'd make a very good Premier. Corky Evans, on the other hand, if he could be coaxed out of retirement to lead the NDP, they, and we, might finally start to see some progress.
PG Driver and Prince George: I absolutely and unequivocally agree with you, very short memories indeed. Him coming out and making these statements really hurts the NDP, with the no leader party.
That fast cat ferry fiasco cost us millions of dollars but that was going to be a legacy, duh.
I for one never want to see them in power again.
Thankfully such a global downturn did not occur during his party's ten years in power - nevertheless, t

The statement sounds like one our liberals are so good at giving us. The NDP gave us good government and you didnt always have to sort the lies from the facts. There was some perceived corruption in which the governent was not involved.

Its easy to forget that the NDP had only been in power for less then a year when the asian flue hit BC. That is the Japanese economy collapsed and left BC holdimng the bag.

Maybe Moe Sihota has a coluorfull past it has very little to do with the inteligence that he has and the solutions for the relection of the NDP in 2013. So get used to it. This haven of capitalists will get a rude awakening.
Cheers
"That is the Japanese economy collapsed and left BC holding the bag."

It did not, strangely enough, affect any of the other provinces in Canada - they all progressed nicely and steadily, seemingly unaffected by this often quoted Asian Flu!

How strange is that? It is just an excuse for mismanaging B.C. to the brink of Have-Not status!

As if Japan was our one and only trading partner - it's just a spin, that's all.
I have no problem with Moe's intelligence.
But he sure screwed the party he's with in to the ground. And it's still there!
"[1.] most people still derive their incomes solely from employment,..."

Several hundred millions of Chinese Indians and many tens of millions more in other countries still need and desire to derive real incomes from employment in manufacturing! That's why they are leaving the farms and villages and coming to the big cities where all the manufacturing jobs are! Without an income from employment their standard of living and purchasing power will be at extremely low levels.

You and I are supposed to be the customers for the goods which their companies ship overseas!

They don't care about any of the things that you write about - all they care about is a steady job and a paycheque every two weeks!

Can't blame them for putting real life necessities ahead of everything else, can we?

I hope that they keep Moe as President! He is the perfect choice!


Prince George:-"They don't care about any of the things that you write about - all they care about is a steady job and a paycheque every two weeks!"
-----------------------------------------
Probably so, just like here. Too bad they, and we, didn't pay more attention to what that paycheque will actually 'buy'. This system of supposedly 'free trade' we're currently engaged in only enslaves the worker in the exporting country and impoverishes him in the importing one.
Gus. Truth is the first casualty of War and Politics;

People should keep in mind that most people do not follow politics to the same degree as most people on these posts. They should also keep in mind that it is a rare day indeed that an NDP'er will change his vote. Liberals, Conservatives, etc; etc; yes they do change, however the NDPer's rarely change.

So with the upcoming election we are being faced with a Liberal Government who basically screwed themselves to the 11th power. There will be hundreds of thousands of people who will no longer vote for these knaves. There will be a third party and independents, that will pick up these votes, and of course the NDP will hang onto their votes.

What this means is that the NDP could run a scarecrow in the next election and still have a good chance of winning. Take a look at how close some of the ridings were in the last election and you will see very quickly that the Liberals are doomed.

You can thank Campbell and Hansen for this situation. They sold us out to Big Business, and Corporations with the $1.8 Billion tax shift. This was and is dirty pool from the get go. I and I am sure many others never voted for the Liberals so that they could line the pockets of Big Business, at my expense.

Campbell has sold us out, and he and his Liberal Government will have to pay the price the same as the Mulrooney Conservatives did in 1991. There is no way that any self respecting person in this Province could support these charlatans without holding their noses and gagging.

They have made their bed, and they can now sleep in it.

A new leadership convention sometime in January at the latest, with the election of a leader not tainted by this administration, the recinding of the HST immediately and a solemn promise to cut wasteful spending, might get them some brownie points, however it has to be done now, not later.

Once the Recalls start in early January the last nail will be driven into the coffins of the vampires Campbell and Hansen, after that it is all downhill.

Have a nice day.
The Japanese were major customers for BC lumber on the Coast, as well as taking raw logs, pulp and paper and pulp chips, coal and mineral concentrates. Those markets were all effected from the "Asian flu" in the 1990's. Hemlock logs and lumber went from being a major export earner to a marginal item. They still are.

The recession then would have been much deeper and more damaging if the NDP had curtailed spending and gone into a strict "austerity" mode ala what Bill Bennett tried in the early 1980's. They didn't bungle that aspect of the economy.

Where they failed was in their efforts at 'social engineering' ~ initiatives that were often well intentioned in conception but utter disasters in their implementation. Goofy things, like Clark's "Jobs and Timber Accord" and the way the Forest Practices Code was run.

It often came down to having 'second-rate experts', like Moe and Glenn Clark and others trying to tell the first-rate experts how to do their jobs. That never works.

The FastCat fiasco was one example of that. The Socreds had already studied building catamaran style fast ferries, and rejected the concept because of what the 'real' experts had told them ~ problems that the NDP politicos chose to completely ignore. The money would've been much better spent building more of the larger "Spirit" class ships. Those ships, built by the Socreds, were made in sections farmed out to various shipyards around the Coast, and then all brought together for final assembly. It worked well, and employment was spread amongst many yards and communities. And we got far better ships than those Sauerkraut Queens Campbell commissioned.
Well, socredible, I agree with you more than I disagree! However, one must be realistic while at the same time not abandoning higher ideals and striving for an even better future.

The same old same old can be challenged everywhere where people can vote and make a difference - if they have the desire to do so and actually come out to the polls!

Obama has spent almost all his political capital already - faster than one would have expected! Nowadays changes can take place with previously unheard of speed. And they will.
No matter who gets elected the overall Policy will NOT change.

At some point it will have to, you'd think, or we're destined to continually fall far short of our potential.

We'll grapple endlessly with rising unemployment, poverty, homelessness, further business concentration, fewer opportunities for genuine entrepreurship, and more foreign control over our resources and remaining economy.

We'll engage in a struggle to capture foreign markets. One in which, ultimately, even if we win we'll lose.

We'll continue to be taxed more, and receive less in return for it.

Some will preach that government 'ownership' will be the cure-all. It won't be.

Nor will further education of the kind we're already trying to enhance. The "jobs" will always be elusive relative to the numbers seeking them.

The best we'll be able to do under this omnipresent Policy is find who is likely to be the most benign as government, who will be likely to do the least damage to us trying to deal with that which they do not understand, nor have any real desire to learn, and let them be government.

They'll soon destroy themselves, the same way Campbell's Liberals have, and the NDP and so-called Socred regimes before them did, too. WE could change it, but we won't. Such is the power of mere 'figures' with that "$" in front of them over the reality they're supposed to, but no longer can, accurately REFLECT.
Not much to say after that socredible, so depressing, more reality than not.
Palopu ...

I do not disagree much with your assessemtn of where things are likely to go for the Liberals. The newspapers and blogs are full of the same thoughts, so it is not exactly anything new.

That is not what my posts are about.

My posts are about the facts. Anytime one attacks ANYONE and calls them a liar, that sends up a red flag in my world. Why? Because, and you should be smart enough to know this Palopu, things are not exactly as simple as they look. Events progress from one to the other and within months things simply change because of new information becoming available.

That view is certainly true with respect to the retractable roof over BC Place.

In the case of Sihota's laying out some dumb ass figures without any relative information or source or even simple identity of what the figure stands for the information is totally deceitful..... but then again, even there, maybe it is the reporting that is all screwed up. Context ... how often do we find that context of presentation is lacking. So maybe this is a case of that.

You see, I am a person that is willing to look at that. I am a person that does not see things in black and white ... I see them in diffferent shades of grey. But as presetned, Sihota's figures are totally misleading.
The retractable roof ..... started many years ago. This sites is actually quite a good one that goes through the history of it as it happened through the eyes of bloggers who at least have some interest and several good undertstansding of the project initiation and evetnual construction process.

This one starts in March 2008

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=628317

It is lengthy, but unedited and not politically biased from my point of view.

Then we have this one about the Frankfurt arena which was the inspiration for the eventual design selected for BC Place.

This is an arena that was first opened in 1925. It is owned by the City rather than the province.

In 1937, it was expanded from 35,000 spectator to 55,000.

In 1955, 19 months of the third major renovation were completed.

Between 1972 and 1974 the stadium was virtually reconstructed for the 1974 World Cup.

Between 2002 and 2005, the fifth version of the stadium was constructed for the 2006 world cup. The stadium kept operating because they rebuilt it one section at a time. The retractable roof was added at that time. The site also talks about the "problems" with the retractable roof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerzbank-Arena

Such arenas are nothing new. As with everything else, they need renovations and even entire rebuilds. They are relatively expensive, but society all over the world seems to want them and seems to be able to afford them. The modern ones typically do multiple duties so that more use can be made of them.

The original BC Place was one of the least expensive when it was built. The air supported structure is relatively inexpensive. BUT, it needs to be replaced and its time came at the same time that people were being told by some "experts" that it will last for another 10 to 15 years, and by other "experts" that it will not. Initial figures included simply replacing the fabric. Then came the Whitecaps and their interest in building a stadium.

I am not going to go on to explain th4e entire history because I do not know it myself. All I know, is that stadium such as this are complex structures, that each one is a one of a kind building, unlike a 50 storey high rise, and the people who have expertise in this area, from engineers to contractors are very rare.

So, lying? ... not likely ... naive .... possibly .... believing low estimates from "experts" once too often ... definitely .....

keeping the public informed throguhout every part of the process ..... you are damned if you do and damned if you don't ....

That's politics ..... whatever you do, you are a liar because most people really are not literate enough in the process of such types of projects, that they compare far too often to when they go shopping for a car or a house.
BTW, the various costs for the BC Place stadium range from pure roof cost, to interior renovations, to building the temporary stadium to hold the sporting events.

One story run in the Vancouver papers even includes the cost of the original stadium, inflated to 2010 dollars to derive the total cost of the stadium which is then compared to some other stadiums in North America. Plus, some costs are pure construction cost while others include the design costs, and all "soft" costs which might add another 25 to 35% easily for such a building. That would be referred to as the "project cost".
Changes in 'method', Prince George. That's all we get a chance to vote on. Changes in 'policy' are kept well away from the electorate.

It's akin to convicting an innocent man and giving him a choice of whether he'd rather be executed by hanging, firing squad, or lethal injection. He rather not be subjected to any, he knows he's innocent, but that's not the choice he's given.

Just look at Moe's five points above. They could've come, word for word, from ANY of the other Parties:-

1.change attitudes: Sihota says business, labour, and First Nations can't be put in seperate rooms -- they must unite and find a common framework to build on

2.invest in education: explain and argue with people that the economy is predicated on investments in education

3.resolve aboriginal land claims to remove uncertainty

4.do better at marketing the province

5.design policy that benefits both jobs and the environment.

Suppose we get down to a level a little less nebulous than all that, and asked a simple question. What is the PRIMARY role of the economy? Is it:-

[a.] to make and deliver first needed, then desired, goods and services to all who are associated in it, right up to its full potential to do that, or satiation of actual demand, whichever comes first;

[b.] to provide employment, i.e. "jobs", to make work; or,

[c.] to make a financial return, i.e. a "profit" ?

It can only be one, the other two have to be secondary to the PRIMARY purpose. In fact they're merely "effects" from it.

Now that's a matter of POLICY. Are we ever asked to decide which of the THREE we would prefer the PRIMARY purpose to be? Never.

Even though one of the current major Parties here is definitely promoted as primarily a "make work" outfit, while the other has "profit" on its mind.

So one says the best 'method' towards making more 'profit' is to make 'more work', while the other says the best way towards making 'more work' is to make 'more profit'. But where's the one that favours [a.]? Isn't that what MOST of US would favour, if we were given a choice?
All I can say is... none of the above. If that is where we are at, then no wonder we are all played for fools as we each play our roles.

Fist thing is GDP is meaningless. HST plays a small role in GDP because GDP is not about the production economy that employs people, but rather is mostly made up of the ponzi scheme fractional reserve financial 'markets', which bear less and less of a resemblance of anything in the real economy. Heck we have QE2 that injects $600 billion into the economy just last week of fake printed phantoms of credit (latin for 'to believe')... and the stock market goes up, and the talking heads say its a sign of confidence in the new republican majority... when in reality it just destroyed peoples savings the world over through coming inflation hurting real working people with real jobs and real savings... to bail out the GDP types playing a game with ponzi dollars in a scheme labeled 'to big to fail' by our ruling elite.

Essentially we are dealing with liars and crooks... either that or people to stupid to even be trusted with making decisions on our future. I think they are just liars and crooks.

What we need to realize is we do not live in a bubble, but rather our economy is dependent upon a system that has become disconnected from the rule of law. The American economy is run by bankster finance playing a fixed game, and we are merely along for the ride. We are along for the ride because we have a political system that rewards stupidity and crooks. They run the show through their access to 'finance'.

Left verse right and right verse left... its all meaningless for all but the most extreme issues and is essential to limiting debate on the issues that really count for working people in the private sector economy.

The fools on the right will tell you that free markets is free enterprise, but free enterprise equalizes opportunity under a rules based system, and yet free markets are unregulated finance with little regard to any fairness... a fixed system for legal indentured servitude... double speak that belies their corrupt capitalist corpocracy roots.

The fools on the left will tell you that we need rules to protect us from the evils of the right and will stand by while crimes are being committed to prove the point... the problem is their rules are about creating indentured servitude... making slaves with a system controlled beyond the influence of the free people in the producing economy... making a mockery of common faith in the legal system to represent fairness and predictability in commerce.

What is needed at this point in time is the truth... and no 'parties' are willing to speak the truth even if they did know it. The truth is the whole Wall Street Federal Reserve system and their counterpart ilk should be shut down and they should all be charged with financial crimes against humanity serving real jail time, and not fractional cost fines for the crimes. The truth is the corrupted financial system has more of an impact on our future here in BC than any pointy headed political rhetoric pointing fingers at each other for complicity in failure... giving us a meaningless vote every four years that counts for very little in actual policy sovereignty. The facts are that today we have no real political choice, but the choice between dumb and dumber in the lesser of two evils, both of which are looser ideologies of small time crimes in the greater world of economics.

AIMHO
Illuminati insider Harold Rosenthal explained how they pit labor (Left) versus management (Right):

"In modern industry ... capital, which force we represent, is [at] the apex. Both management and labor are on the base of this triangle. They continually stand opposed to each other and their attention is never directed to the head of their problem."

"At first, by controlling the banking system we were able to control corporation capital. Through this, we acquired total monopoly of the movie industry, the radio networks and the newly developing television media. The printing industry, newspapers, periodicals and technical journals had already fallen into our hands. The richest plum was later to come when we took over the publication of all school materials. Through these vehicles we could mold public opinion to suit our own purposes. The people are only stupid pigs that grunt and squeal the chants we give them, whether they be truth or lies."

Sounds familiar.
The money power preys upon upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong it's REIGN by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in few hands, and the Republic is destroyed.

President Abraham Lincoln after the National Banking Act of 1863 was passed.
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-- Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce."
-- Paul Warburg, the who came to America to draft and achieve the Federal Reserve Act

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes its laws."
-- Mayer Amschel Rothschild
Napoleon Bonaparte
�When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.�
---------

Niccolo Machiavelli
�For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearances as though they were realities, and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are.�
-------

President James Madison
�History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control of governments by controlling money and its issuance.�
--------

President James A Garfield
�Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce.�
----------------

President Woodrow Wilson
�A great Industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world � no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men.
-----------

Senator Barry Goldwater
�Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money-lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States.�
--------

Henry Ford
�It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.�



$600 Billion they printed of paper money last week.. the start of losing it all... and no politicians anywhere across the globe were purvey to that decision... politics is meaningless and dead as a force in our world... they have no power to protect the economy with decisions and power exercised in this fashion. QE2 might as well be stamped on the tomb of democracy... and yet we still listen to third rate actors like Moe Sihota.... a few independents would go a long way to providing sentinels in our legislative bodies raising the red flags and warning the people of the corruption inherent with all political parties. the party system has failed us standing by and sitting down while the criminal enterprises were at work.
Quoted above

President James A Garfield
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce."

Then from Eagleone:
"$600 Billion they printed of paper money last week"

I think it is the USA that printed the money. That was not to replace damaged bills, it was to increase the "volume of money" as Garfield put it.

So, the government is "absolute master of all industry and commerce" in the USA.

Right eagleone? :-)
Socredible - my answer is option [a.] of course. It is the only logical choice.

Forget the guy who talks about banksters, ponzi schemes, talking heads, indentured servitude, etc ..... :-)
There are certain elements of truth in what Eagle has written, Gus, but also much that is verifiably false. The Federal Reserve Banks, for instance, ARE audited.

Many of the quotes attributed to various now long deceased persons are fabrications that were propagated by the Greenbacker Movement in the USA during the latter half of the 19th century. And have been continually repeated as "Gospel" by monetary reformers of that ilk, and others, right up to the where we are today.

The Greenbackers want the US government to simply print money to pay for everything it now supposedly borrows money to do. In their ideology this removes the hand of "international Finance", the "Banksters", from control over the American government.

Besides bearing a striking similarity to the "State Theory of Money" experimented with by the Nazis, it would be as disastrous a policy as the one advocated by some of the Tea Party nut-cases like Rand Paul and his better known father, Ron Paul, who'd return the USA to the "gold standard" and mandate "Balanced Budgets". Without the slightest conception of what a Balanced Budget REALLY means under the current (and unchanged, if the US did return to a gold backed currency), financial system.

I have a feeling that Eagle, perhaps unwittingly, favours "government" control of credit. The real need, if we want to preserve any semblence of what we call 'democracy', is to have "consumer" control of credit.
Methinks if the US keeps printing money they will be the new Zimbabwe 2.0
Mugabe's made everyone a millionaire down there, Harbinger, but he had to stop the presses, it just got too expensive for the paper and ink.
The Fed Reserve Bank is very much not audited. They will be... and the new Chairman of the Committee that oversees the US Fed will now be governed by Ron Paul who vows to make sure of that (he has a big majority behind him now in case you haven't noticed).

As for Gus... it shows how little educated you really are for all your talk. The US Federal Reserve is not a government entity. The US Fed is a privately owned banking cartel. The US Fed printed the $600 Billion in funny money... it bails out their banker friends at a high savers tax to the rest of the economy through inflation. That is fact, and therefor your claim that it benefits government is bunk. It benefits the monopolist globalists that control the printing of US dollars.

As for Socred... why don't you just come out and say it rather than hiding behind half truths and misstruths about conjecturing what others think.

Socred favors the printing of money to bail out financial institutions for gambling and crime risks. That is the only defense of QE2. To heck with ever printing money to help real people out.

For me I don't pick winners and losers, and I don't think government nor their partners in crime the central bankers should be picking winners and losers either. Using printing of money to pick winners out of losers is not a rules based system. I support a rules based system of capitalism where everyone is accountable to the same rules win or lose. If that means government controls the issuance of credit to ensure all money is real money then so be it. I don't buy the argument that a few hundred billion here and there is a small price to pay for the wisdom and fairness of banksters hiding behind bank facades while ripping us all off blind is a better alternative.