The following are snippets from a post which Maxime Bernier (Conservative M.P.) put on his blog yesterday. The link to his post is at the end of my post.

"We need to remember that the current crisis is the consequence of previous crises provoked by the Fed and other central banks around the world.

When they create too much money out of thin air and artificially reduce interest rates, they bring on artificial booms, which are necessarily followed by a crash. We had the high-tech boom at the end of the 1990s, followed by the crash in
2001. And then the real estate boom, followed by another crash beginning in 2007.

Each time, central banks inject massive quantities of new money in the economy to prevent the crisis. But all they manage to do is to create more instability."

"Economics has taught us that to have sustainable growth, we need monetary stability and prudent economic policies that favour entrepreneurship and trade. But for many years now, western countries have tried on the contrary to produce wealth with more debt and more money created out of thin air. This is a recipe that has never worked and which may only prolong the crisis we are in.

We need to change direction, and the sooner the better."

http://www.maximebernier.com/en/2010/12/une-mauvaise-recette-pour-la-reprise-economique/#more-2472

Charles: We should note that most "money" is not created by central banks, but by private banks creating money out of thin air.

Julian Assange for premier! Maybe then we would have "open and accountable government".

How about all that "money" created by Credit Card companies - especially at this time of year with purchases on the "never-never" plan climbing higher by the week.
Take the case of a person who has just under $6,000.00 racked up on a credit card charging 19.5 percent interest and is making the minimum payment of $124.00 per month because they are "stretched so thin they can't afford any more".
That person will take 51 and a half years to pay off the card at that rate (with no new purchases going on either) and that is 618 months at $124.00 which equals an astronomical $76,632.00 total payback !!!
Time to ease way back on the spending.
Look around your circle of friends and see how many might be so overloaded with debt that is they miss 2 paycheques in a row in the next 20 years they could be bankrupt. Interest rates are not going to stay where they are for much longer - time to get personal debt paid down as quickly as possible. No wonder the head of the Bank of Canada is so concerned - if people are burdened by all this debt, they will have to stop spending and there goes the economic recovery.
But, on a lighter note - Happy Friday, everyone. Take care.

The money created out of thin air always goes to the finance industry to bail them out from bad gambles with no market accountability for their actions... just print more money to bail out the ponzi players. $12.3 Trillion last year alone the US Fed (privately owned and controlled) issued in US currency to their friends with no strings attached. That is the equivalent in one year bailout (to be paid for by the next generation) that is the equivalent of 85% of American GDP.

Staggering the theft and denuding of the American economy taking place right now without so much as a single congress member having a say in the matter. The 'democracy' we see on TV is nothing but a puppet show to make people think they have a say and aren't infact the economic slaves they are becoming. Free money to the globalist ponzi schemers paid for by the next generation for sure... and increasingly the today and now with program cuts and tax increases to pay for the monetary imbalance being created. Its the biggest story of our time and very little of it is being reported on.

Here is an amazing speech by Independent Senator Bernie Sanders just last week... one of the few that gets it... presidential material IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq1zpHF0J04

Here is a very sobering list of what is wrong with the US Fed and its $12 Trillion dollar theft of American currency to bail out insiders... so that the people that crashed the system can have the liquidity to buy up all the distressed assets that they helped to destroy.

Are The Federal Reserve�s Crimes Too Big To Comprehend?
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/wall-street-pentagon-papers-biggest.html

Soon Ron Paul will be the Chairman of the Congressional Finance Committee in the new Congress next year and he vows to open up the US Fed to Congressional accountability... its going to be ugly for sure when light shines on what that private cartel has been up to with America's currency.

IMO if one is to create currency that devalues existing currency, which taxes the savers indirectly, then it should be bottom up distribution, rather than top down. What is an average unit cost of labor and how much labor is under utilized in the economy? Increase the currency by that much with social credit to all the individual citizens of age of majority in the society with expectation for a equivalent return to society in units of labor donated to society in what ever form it may take. Let the banks survive by the rule of the markets like all the rest of us, and currency creation going to the real economy of real people. Mere fractions of what the US Fed gives to its friends would change the world for the good.

Time Will Tell....

Julian Assange is a bankster minion with an agenda to shut down openness of the internet for his and his hidden groups agenda. He is no friend at all of real open transparency... Wikileaks is the worst friend of transparency and openness one could ever ask for. Wikileaks IMO is a Mossad operation.

Happy Friday everyone, have a pleasant weekend. Stay home, and save some money, after all, if you don't burn up gas cruising around you will be saved by the "carbon tax"!

I LOVE Oilberta!!

ALL 'money' is created by the banking system and is in the nature of a contract whose terms did not exist before they were agreed to by the 'debtor' and the 'creditor'. Those terms are outlined in the Promissory Note the debtor signs before the banker utters those magical words, "The 'money' is in your account..."

What has happened is that there has been an exchange of the borrower's creditary instrument, the Promissory Note, and acceptance of a 'liability' by him (for future payment, plus interest), for an entry to a deposit account upon which he may draw by means of the Bank's creditary instruments, cheque, draft, debit card, even cash, if desired. The Promissory Note is the borrower's LIABILITY and the Bank's ASSET. The deposit is now the borrower's ASSET and the Bank's LIABILITY. The advantage to the borrower is that he now has access to credit NOW, which will be in a form that is generally accepted in the community, i.e. 'money'. And to the Bank in that it will have earnings IN THE FUTURE for the acceptance of a risk now.

Every time a bank lends or spends, for ANY purpose, (but primarily to purchase securities), new 'money' is created. Banks DO NOT lend out their customer's deposits. Those deposits are their Liabilities.

The repayment of loans to the Banks, or sale of securities held by them, destroys an equivalent amount of 'money'.

95% of the process of banking is simply bookkeeping. Offseting figures as debits or credits, assets or liabilities.

The continuing nature of the 'financial' process, which, like the very real 'physical' processes of Production and Consumption is always in motion, allows for subtrahends from the 'flux' of money from the banks and the 'reflux' of this money back to them.

Those subtrahends are 'profit', 'interest' and 'savings' ~ three homologues that relate to the three sectors of any modern economy ~ Firms (Producers), Banks, and Consumers.

What we think of as the 'money supply' is the difference in TIME between the TOTAL flow of loans from, and spending by, the Banks, and the repayment of loans to, and recovery of that spending by, the Banks.

The other 5% involves assessing the 'credit worthiness' of their customers, i.e., their 'character' ~ since all financial credit is ultimately based on 'character'; whether the terms of the contract entered into will be honoured ~ whether the borrower is a 'man of his word'.

Human beings are unique amongst all the species of animals in that we have the singular ability "to contract".

The problems with the economy at present will NOT be solved by "limiting spending", or by governments going into austerity mode, as is happening in Britain now.

Nor can they be solved by running up more debt, either publicly or privately, when that debt only adds to existing debts which in their totality can currently NEVER be repaid. Simply because there is not enough 'money' in existence to repay them.

Nor can there be under current financial conventions. Not without further increasing debts. We can not 'grow' our way out of this. We have to change those financial conventions. That is the ONLY way out, short of the abject stupidity of exercising, once again, the mass destruction of the world through war or other means, simply to try to make flawed 'figures' DETERMINE actual 'facts', rather than properly REFLECT them.

The only permanent solution is to properly relate 'financial' credit to 'real credit' ~ the ACTUAL potential of the economy to produce and deliver goods and services, as, when, and where required or desired. And keep them related, so the former actually does properly REFLECT the latter.

Anything less will be an exercise in futility. And if you're still around when tha futility is once again illustrated by our 'leaders', you can remeber you heard it here first!

A site called OpenLeaks, formed by WikiLeaks staff who broke with Assange, will launch on Monday, the respected Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter reported Friday.

OpenLeaks has so far created a Twitter account, which is blank.

“Our long-term goal is to build a strong, transparent platform to support whistleblowers, both in terms of technology and politics, while at the same time encouraging others to start similar projects,” the newspaper quoted a source connected to the new site as saying.

Unlike WikiLeaks, which has most recently started publishing a quarter-million internal U.S. diplomatic messages, OpenLeaks would give people a means to publish but will not publish directly.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/905074--payback-hackers-call-off-plan-to-take-down-amazon?bn=1

Eagleone:-"IMO if one is to create currency that devalues existing currency, which taxes the savers indirectly, then it should be bottom up distribution, rather than top down."
-----------------------------------------

Yes, Eagle, the last part of that is absolutely true. But why do we have to "create currency that devalues existing currency"?

There is no need for that whatsoever.

'Inflation' is an increase in the quantity of money available in the hands of the public accompanied by an increase in prices.

That's what Gordon Campbell, amongst others of his ilk have given us. What is desired, however, is an increase in the quantity of money WITHOUT that rise in prices. That is something quite different. I believe it is called 'prosperity', though I seriously doubt Mr. Campbell knows
that. Or the difference. Nor will his successor. Or the counterpart in Ottawa.

There are TWO aspects to the creation of 'money'. The first is 'credit issue' ~ the creation of what we call'money' itself; and the second is 'price making' ~ for what is created and distributed as 'credit' ('money') is taken back and cancelled through 'price'.

It is only through socially controlling BOTH of these aspects that any money system can be made to be man's servant and not his master.

As it stands at the moment, the system of accountancy that determines 'profit' and 'loss', and thus the future of any producing entity, works very well IN RELATION TO EACH INDIVIDUAL FIRM.

Any business can easily determine what price it need recover for its goods or services using proper accounting. There is no need to change that.

But "where" the money currently comes from ~ consumer's 'incomes'~ is increasingly inadequate to fully liquidate costs through prices. And becomes ever the more so as technology continues to displace labour.

There is NOTHING at present to relate what is happening in ALL businesses, what we might say, in the economy AS A WHOLE, in regards to ALL 'prices' taken collectively, with ALL 'incomes' taken the same way.

Remember, 'money' is really nothing of itself. It is only a facilitating device for initiating 'Production' and moving it though into the hands of all of us for 'Consumption'. Ideally, 'money' would match exactly the flow of production and consumption in the economy as a whole ~ after all, we only 'produce' to 'consume' ~ there is NO other sane reason for doing so. Though those who have elevated the "job" to almost sacred status seem determined to find one.

If we properly related the flow of 'prices' and 'incomes', the economy becomes fully financially self-liquidating in EACH successive cycle of production. At present it can't achieve this in any sensible manner. With properly applied Social Credit it could.

Prices could be rebated to consumers without any business taking a loss, simply by issuing 'new credit' to consumers debt-free, based on the ratio by which overall national production exceeds overall national consumption over any chosen
previous fiscal period.

What this would do is release the economy to operate at a potential determined by its 'physical' capacity, and actual consumer demand. Not hamstrung, as it so often is now,
by artificial financial constraints.

Came across this article - scsry for Canadian sovereign authority?
[http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/TIDES+HAVE+TURNED/3859570/story.html}

Well said socredible.
But, we tend to forget that the U.S. plays the biggest part in this.
They are basically printing money that has little value in terms of actual monetary/financial sense.
Bullsh**t dollars.
When the bucks run out,just print more, which seems to be the case.

"?Wikileaks IMO is a Mossad operation."

Anti-Semitism reaches a new peak of insanity! There's not even a hint of a connection between Wikileaks and the Mossad.

One of the big Problems is yourself , if you are so stupid to go for all the Sales Slogans like
"0 down no Payments for 90 Days" or buy a House with 5% down on a 35 Year Loan, your down Payment does not even cover the Taxes, or make monthly Payments on your Visa,make Payments on your ICBC you can't be helped. I think we have not seen the End yet, it will get much worse .
Buy only if you have the Money, this way the Bank does not own you and you feel much better.

pg250fan, interesting read on how the rich keep dipping into ones pockets under the guise of enviromental stewardship. Hey folks how is the carbon tax working out. Whos pockets is that money falling into? pg250fan's link might give you a hint.

Right on seamutt!
The big green industry is in reality, a huge cash cow for many!
And we buy into it because it has been set up in such a way that we have no choice.
And it isn't just private industry doing the scamming.
Even our government/s support the great green scam and use it as a money grab.
Carbon taxes,carbon footprints,carbon credits,environmental fees,etc.etc.all cost us money...lot's of money,and where do we think it goes?
When someone came up with this new "green" language,you can bet they had profits in mind.
And it works.

Sure there is... every single Wikileak fits nicely with Israeli foreign policy... not one Wikileak compromises Israel and its policies in the Gaza getto, Lebanon attacks, Palestinian aparthide, Iranian policy... you name it every single Wikileak is selectively aligned with Israeli foreign policy... including the solution to the 'problem' of net censorship to control what is said on the internet. Wikileaks is by design made to act as a sort of 911 on open internet so as to open the door to censorship of 'politically uncomfortable' information. Its an operation far greater in scale then just a few independent activists and has state sponsored organization to it at all levels... and only Mossad has the kind of access and control to American intelligence leakage that Wikileaks is using for its blackmail operations. Its a message to the outside world that these people have access at the highest levels and the ability to influence American politics, and its blackmail gold for them. Also its no secret that Julian Assange is Jewish, so he is only a step away from Israeli influence... and one would think for a person advocating openness that we would know more about him and his organizations rational for how they 'select' their leaks. They are run like a classic deep cover operation and one only has to look at the motives of their outcomes... and those motives have nothing to do with transparency, but rather driving an agenda.

That's just my opinion though. Its not antisemitism to call a rouge state just that. Israel is the greatest threat to our world in terms of nuclear war, terrorism (they invented it after all), financial (as they were founded by Rothschils bankster dollars), as well as in terms of our rights as citizens within our own Western countries. To ignore this is simply to ignore the greatest threat facing our civilization today. Israel is nothing more than a safe-haven for a political zionist international criminal bankster syndicate that acts as if they are above the law.

They have full control over the Harper government and that should scare Canadians, but it doesn't because its never reported on. Our Lebanon peacekeeper killed... Harper apologized for Israel, rather then defend a Canadian serving his country with honor. The Christmas day Gaza attack and documented war crimes Harper defended. The Gaza flotilla attack of peace activists trying to bring humanitarian supplies to the largest collectively punished population in modern times Harper not only defended, but gave Israeli PM an alibi meeting with him during the attack. Harper signed over RCMP and CSIS files on all Canadians to Israel, canceled all humanitarian support to Palestinian NGO's, supports the settlement activity on stolen Palestinian lands, and guarantees Canadian military involvement with any nation that fights back against Israeli aggression. Harper is owned 100% by Israeli influence and so now to is the conservative movement in Canada.

These are all facts that are more than mere coincidence.

Socred the problem with your theory is that business by nature should see some fail as they are no longer competitive or wasteful with resources... that is the nature of a market economy... so social credit has its limitations and thus would have to be very clearly defined otherwise it would just replace one corruption with another kind of corruption or entitlement.

Seems to me there were no "conspiracy theories" anywhere before the Internet (invented by Al Gore) came along. Or were there? Be specific.

Try this one as well

[http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/cash+sands/3675309/story.html]

Whose agenda is environmental protection - seems to me protesters are making quite a bit of money from foreign sources, I guess thats why they can turn their back on the domestic economy.

Harbinger

1. JFK
2. Roswell
3. railway
4. the opium act of 1912

Talk about money. How much was Ann B. pay out?? If we can pay for her , we can pay Brian S. court charges . Their is more than one Guilty party here. What a mess.

Businesses could still fail, Eagle, if they don't serve the needs of consumers. Or are mismanaged, wasteful of resources, etc. Just as now.

Only right now more businesses fail because of repeated contrictions of credit in the whole economy than from any other cause. The wasteful and needless "bust" that follows every equally needless, artificially overheated, financially created "boom".

We have allowed the banking system to "administer" credit, which is as it should be. But what should NEVER be is allowing them to usurp complete control over "policy" in monetising real wealth. And through the exercise of that policy, claim the credit that they create, and what it's enabled, as THEIR property.

'Credit' belongs to the community, it is a communal possession because it arises from interactions between and amongst members of the community.

And the determination of economic "policy" in any free-market economy should rest with Consumers.

Not with Banks. Nor government. It is WE, not THEY, who should "give the orders" to Producers what will be made, (through the spending of our money). Producers are there to obey those orders, failing which they go out of business.

The present system forces us to pay, in prices, for BOTH the 'plant' and the 'product'. But we only get delivery of the 'product'. And only then so long as we can afford it, or indebt ourselves further to have it.

We don't want the 'plant' ~ it's not "the means of production" that are of interest to us. It's "the production", that's what we want. And at a price we can afford to pay.

Every new 'plant' increases the Real Credit of society. It enables goods and/or services to be produced and delivered with greater efficiency. But the 'product' prices, as currently computed, do NOT fully 'credit' each of us, as members of society, with what amounts to a greater excess of Capital APPRECIATION than that of the Capital Depreciation. Depreciation which forms a component of every article's price. And we are now, quite correctly from an accounting standpoint, obliged to pay.

Social Credit would correct that. It would allow an economy to operate to its full physical potential, or satiation of actual consumer demand, whichever came first.

Right now, every industrial economy is continually 'choked off' in its existing ability to deliver both needed and desired goods and services, with every contraction in financial credit by the Banks. Not only do we lose in this scenario, but the Banks do too. As businesses. But as a means to centralise control over us, those exercising THEIR "policy" have the most perfect vehicle ever devised by the (warped) mind of man. That's what MUST change.

"We don't want the 'plant' ~ it's not "the means of production" that are of interest to us. It's "the production", that's what we want."

Look carefully at what you are saying, because one could take that and say, "aha, the consumers do not care how or where it is made, they just care what is made"

If that is the case, then no wonder things are made in places where it is cheaper to make products. Make them in North Korea for all we care.

Yet there are consumer groups put there that do seem to care. Some have either become powerful enough or have been given more power by the manufacturers or governments, that they set standards such as in the forest products industry where there are "green" stamps/certifications that not only can be attained but are getting to the point where they must be attained or else the product is dead.

Fair trade coffee, is another one.

"The present system forces us to pay, in prices, for BOTH the 'plant' and the 'product'. But we only get delivery of the 'product'. And only then so long as we can afford it, or indebt ourselves further to have it."

Pretty simplistic.

Both the plant and the product only? You need to define what else is included under either one or both of those.

1. design
2. retooling
3. training of workers
4. workers direct work
5. marketing & promotion
6. manufacturing plant
7. transportation
8. raw products/materials
9. storage
10. retail
11. warrantees

Just to name a few.

We are not exactly baking pies for the village anymore to get back flour from a neighbour, apples from another, wood from another, milk from another spoons from another, etc. etc.

Socredible ... we have computers available today to simulate your version of the ideal economy and someone else's version. So far I have not seen anyone put a good enough example together that is useful as a tool to help us with that. Maybe you know of one or more.

So, we still put our wet finger up in the air and see which way the wind is blowing as you are doing.

Most is just opinion, with little proof in practice.

Billposer wrote: "Anti-Semitism reaches a new peak of insanity! There's not even a hint of a connection between Wikileaks and the Mossad."

Aha ... once more we see how good the Mossad is..... ;-)

Harbinger wrote: "Seems to me there were no "conspiracy theories" anywhere before the Internet (invented by Al Gore) came along. Or were there? Be specific."

Let me see .... ..... hmmmm.

1. Who killed John F. Kennedy?
2. Who killed Bobby Kennedy?
3. Who killed Marilyn Monroe
4. moon landing - real or memorex?
5. who allowed Peral Harbor to happen?

Look up free masons and conspiracy theories. They go back to the late 1700s, generally dealing with control of government.

Conspiracy theories have been around ever since man had enough time to sit idle and do little other than think stupid thoughts and convince others that they were not as stupid as they seemed ... LOL

Gus, I don't know about the rest of your conspiracies, but as for the moon landing it is real.... I saw it on Mythbusters.

I have a hard time believing that there are so many drivers out there comletely ignoring school and playground zones. It seems everytime I am in one, someone ahead of me is racing away or someone is barelling up behind me and then trying to "push" me to go faster. Come on people, the child you hit maybe a neighbour's or a best friend of one of your own children. Think a moment, kids will be kids and they don't always think before doing something foolish. We are older, we are supposed to be more responsible than that. Slowing down for that two blocks isn't going to cost you more than a few SECONDS. Better that than spending YEARS in remorse, don't you think so?

Hats off to the city for finally clearing the snow off walkways and not just sidewalks.

Confused ... I have a bit of a personal anecdote about the moon landing. I was living in a flat in Toronto at the time. The people who owned the house were Italian. We were going out the day they set foot on the moon and our landlords were watching it on TV as we came down. We stopped to talk to them for a few minutes about the big event. They told su itwas not real at all. It was all staged in some secret NASA place and broadcast to the world.

We thought that was a very funny remark and had a goof laugh afterwards. Years later I discovered that there were actually people who believed the whole thing was a USA conspiracy to dupe the world that they had technology they actually did not have, or that the mission was actually a failure, etc.

Perhaps these hackers could zero my credit card balances for me :-)

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/12/10/wikileaks-cyber-war.html?ref=rss

Gus wrote:-"Look carefully at what you are saying, because one could take that and say, "aha, the consumers do not care how or where it is made, they just care what is made"

If that is the case, then no wonder things are made in places where it is cheaper to make products. Make them in North Korea for all we care."
------------------------------------------

That's pretty much the situation that exists right now, Gus. And it's been brought on by a lack of "effective demand" in the hands of too many Consumers TO BE ABLE TO CARE.

They most likely would, if they could, buy products that are beautiful, and functional, and last. Just as most would likely buy only products made under "fair trade" conditions, or certified or otherwise known to be environmentally sustainable. But they can't, too many simply can't.

Anymore than they can anymore buy many products that used to be made here. They simply do not have the 'money'. Not at the way prices are currently arranged when those prices have to be met from incomes that, collectively, are inadequate to fully meet them in their totality.

Social Credit, properly applied, would provide a great boost for sales of products made in this country to consumers in this country. It makes it possible to more fully pay FOR what we've done, FROM what we've done. Not as now, where we can only do that from what we're DOING, or are going TO HAVE TO DO.

It would also restore international 'trade' to being just that ~ TRADE. Not as it is now, where it's not a balanced exchange of relative surpluses carried on to the benefit of each country's citizens by enabling diversification in their consumption, but rather a continual quest for international 'credit' to try to bridge a shortage of 'money' in domestic markets.

A quest that is completely unsustainable, and directly responsible for the most gross perversions visited upon this planet and its peoples.

Gus wrote:-"Socredible ... we have computers available today to simulate your version of the ideal economy and someone else's version. So far I have not seen anyone put a good enough example together that is useful as a tool to help us with that. Maybe you know of one or more."
------------------------------------------

No, I don't think it is really possible to completely model anyone's "ideal economy", Gus. Not for practical purposes anyways. All models are simplifications.

I'm reminded of that in recalling the story of the old Bohemia Lumber Company in Oregon, when it was run by the Stewart family, and the efforts they made to come up with a use for Douglas Fir bark.

Something, at that time, there was little other option for, other than incineration in those old smoke and fly-ash belching beehive burners. Just utter waste.

The Stewart brothers felt there must be something that could be made from it, so they hired a research chemist, and he proceded to chemically deconstruct Fir bark, to see what it was made of, and what, if anything, it could be used for.

Their chemist found it to contain a wax that was potentially as valuable as existing commercially made high-end waxes extracted from other vegetable products.

A small scale pilot plant was subsequently constructed to see if this wax could be recovered commercially, and it worked like a charm.

Part of the process involved dissolving the wax with a highly expensive solvent, and then distilling the solution, and recovering the wax, and the solvent, which could be used again and again.

After such sterling success with their model, the Stewarts proceeded to invest millions in construction of a full scale, commercial bark processing plant ~ and nearly lost their shirts!

The expensive solvent that was continually recaptured in the model couldn't be completely recovered in the 'real' plant. It 'disappeared', somewhere, and continually replacing it put the operation into the red, and made it impractical to continue.

I think it would be much the same with modelling an "ideal" economy.

One thing that has been done, however, is to model the flow of 'money' in relation to the conventions of double-entry cost accountancy. Which, in spite of what the 'economists' might think, is really what presently controls the economy. Accounting, and its rules and conventions, utilised by EVERY business ~ not their 'projections'.

Much work has been done on that in the USA, drawing on what the originator of the whole 'Social Credit' concept, Major C H Douglas, wrote back in the 1920's and '30's.

So far, it seems that Douglas was far more correct in his original analysis than previously believed, and, the principles he developed haven't been able to be successfully refuted. Would they work in practice? Who knows for sure, they haven't been tried properly yet.

What we DO know, however is what WON'T work. And unfortuantely, that's what's being tried on us, again, now.

Gus. There are still people to-day who do not beleive that there was a moon landing. Not as many as there were years ago but still lots of people.

If you consider that most of what the Americans do is secret, and illegal, then why wouldnt some people not beleive them??

I think there are also some people that believe there the moon is far too small for a person to stand on.

But you know, since the landing - if there was one - took place a long time ago, there are likely a lot of people, even in the USA, who do not know there was one.

Betcha Jay Leno can find them on his "Jaywalking" interviews.

http://www.iviewtube.com/v/65379/jay-leno-in-jaywalking-(very-funny)