I think that the problem with the ice is a lot more than meets the eye.

There cannot be any doubt that pressure has been on Dianne Rodgers and others to do whatever they had to do to increase the usage of the CN Centre.
This facility loses $380,000.00 to $400,000.00 per year and is somewhat of embarrasment to City Hall and the original advocators of this facility who predicted that it would generate revenue, or a the very least be cost neutral. No one who advocated building the CN Centre ever suggested that it would cost taxpayers these huge dollars to run it.

Having to cram different venues into short time frames to try and generate additional monies, while still trying to keep the ice in good condition for their number one customer (Cougers) is no doubt a contributing factor to this situation. Will anyone accept responsibility for the overall failure of this venture. Will we continue to lose $400,000.00 per year, and pretend that this is normal.

It may be that Dianne Rodgers and Phil Beaulieu are responsible for this latest fiasco, but they are not responsible for the bigger fiasco, which was to build this centre to its present size, and host a Hockey Team that has little support.

They blame Dianne Rodgers and Phil for the Ice Problems and they blame the Hockey Fans and Citizens of Prince George for the low attendence, and as usual they take no blame for themselves.

Self serving politicians, and cival servants one and all.

We subsidize the buses too. Hands in my pockets. Hands in my pockets. C'mon Colin. I have more pockets.

"Diane Rogers" and "Phil Beaulieu" were the fall guys.
If We had got rid of the Cougars and the problem would have been solved just as easily....

See, this is why I like this venue. Not knowing any different, after reading the story, I got the idea that the two in charge just screwed up and weren't doing their job, and got axed. Now, I really suspect there is much more to the story. Kind of like I tuned Don M into what really goes on in the cop shop.

But now, the public comments shed a little bit more light on the situation. So CN gets credit for the center, but we pay the cost of running it.
I always thought this was a CN goodwill gesture.

Also, I see the big flashy sign that blinds drivers at night out front, and I think, geez that's a little overboard isn't it ? Why does Prince George seem to need the biggest and the best, the most flashy ? The center is certainly done out like it should be in a high population area like Vancouver.

We built a water facility in the Nechako that is 4 times the size of what was required to serve the need, they want to build a 4 lane Cameron Street bridge, what else is going to run away into the world of caviar dreams ?

Maybe, just maybe, this was a case of mismanagement at the more upper levels than what has been let on. Dump the guy below you before he has a chance to tell everybody what really happened.

Yeah..you are probably right. Lets buy the lowest quality of everything we can. That ought to make our city a better place to live. ;)

Reasonable. The CN Rail will pay the City 1.3 Million dollars over the next 15 years for Signage on this building. This works out to approx $86,000.00 per year.

The Cougers recently signed an agreement with the City for use of the CN Centre for the next 3 years with a further two year option. In return the City will receive 12.5% of gross ticket sales up to $1,500,000.00 and 15% thereafter.

The average attendence for 2005 was 3,108 fans per game. Assume an average ticket price of $12.00 per game and you have yearly revenue from gross ticket sales somewhere in the area of $1,194,400.00. So the City will only get the 12.5% which would be in the neibourhood of $149,300.00. Approx $4500.00 per game. Other revenue is generated from Rental Space etc; plus any other venues such as Rodeo, Motorcycle Racing, Entertainers, etc;

After receiving all revenues for the year the City still loses $300,000.00 to $400,000.00 per year on this facility. This may be offset somewhat this year by the signage agreement with CN. We will see when the numbers are in.

This is the classic ***Catch 22** If the City increases the rent for the facility, those using the facility will have to increase the cost of ticket sales, and this could in turn drive down attendence. However if you cannot increase fan attendence then you will continue to lose money.

Could this have been predicted by those who originally came up with this concept. I dont know, but I can tell you that I predicted it based on the fact that there never was 5000, to 6000 hockey fans in Prince George. That was all hype. 5000 fans would be 7% of the population of Prince George. They would have to attend 32 games per year. Some fans of course did then and still do support the Spruce Kings. So not enough fans and too much Hockey is the problem.

People who make these decisions are never held accountable, however those below them are expendable as **Scapegoats**

"they want to build a 4 lane Cameron Street bridge"

They do? ... I just heard about a two lane bridge .... even that is too many as far as I am concerened, but 4 lanes is embelishing it a bit. There are no four lane roads on either side of the bridge.

"the big flashy sign that blinds drivers at night out front"

I like it. It is part of any arena like that and should have been put there when it first opened rather than 10 years later. Beats the beaten up wooden thing on the corner with home made signs on it. Thst was bush league.

And what do you think that these two will get as payouts to keep this all inhouse? Hush money courtesy the PG taxpayer!

Hey Lefty, I suspect you drank your beer, ate your pizza therefore the goods were received. In addition to that you saw 2/3 of a hockey game... based on your philosophy someone should also reimburse you for fuel to and from the game, maybe a babysitter and a few hours out of your life...suck it up s**t happens

Owl I was being sarcastic, it must have been foggy where you are, you didn't see it fly over your head.

"I like it. It is part of any arena like that and ..."

I like it too. I like it on the front of the multiplex or in the parking area, but not at an intersection facing traffic, where there are busy pedestrian crossings. Argue all you want, but Metropolitan Planning 101 says it should not interfere in any way with the safe travel of pedestrian or vehicular traffic, and should not demand people's attention so much as to interfere with their ability to focus on the task at hand. You have been told.

"Lets buy the lowest quality of everything ..."

I didn't say lowest quality, I was speaking about size and scale versus skyscraper. We don't need the biggest and best, but what will just more than serve the need, taking into account the type of money we can afford to support.


* Palopu....good article, great read. Thank you.

Sorry, 'article(S)' with an "S"

:-)

"Metropolitan Planning 101 says it should not interfere in any way with the safe travel of pedestrian or vehicular traffic, and should not demand people's attention so much as to interfere with their ability to focus on the task at hand"

Take my advice ... do not drive into Victoria, Penticton along Skaha lakae and other areas with huge billboard walls ...

Moreso, never, never, never rent a car when flying into Las Vagas and drive downtown.

Ooooops... I just realized, you were being sarcastic again ...... fog's still here ...

CN Centre indeed. To me, it is the Multiplex pure and simple.

The speed with which the two people were fired leaves me shocked.

As you say, there is much more behind the story.

I don't like the high-handeness of this action; it is arrogrant.

The closer you are to the top the closer you are to the front door.

This has been coming for some time. Although the trigger was pulled very quickly it has taken some time for the bullets to be put into the revolver.

Its not the first time we have been surprised by dismissals and it won`t be the last.

Huge "blinding" billboard walls, or huge lit-up billboard walls. The brightness of the lighting in that particular sign, kind of demands some thinking about how high and how far back from the road it should be. Don't pretend it's the same thing, because it's not. If you continue to play the duck, I'm going to recommend you to run the RCMP.

And Vegas is Vegas, it's not an example of anything. That's why it's Vegas.

How come they took the sign down from the playhouse at 16 & 97? Moving picture sign? Why not take down the Multiplex sign too?

Just put the players on roller skates, I mean inline skates, Cheaper to run the center with no ice.

The sign was taken down at the playhouse as it wasn't generating the ad revenue to justify the cost of the sign. In that case, the sign was both too small and actually in a bad location as it wasn't very visible to a large amount of traffic.

Well Lefty, lawsuits are the answer to everything. For a $15.00 ticket, a few bucks for a beer and food, we all should rush out and pay a lawyer $200.00/hour to sue the taxpayers of Prince George including yourself.

Ten years ago when the Cougars had their magical run, people were wondering why we only built a 6,000 seat arena instead of a 7-8,000 seat (or even bigger). The Multiplex/Cougars used to have a decent fan base, average around 5,000 fans for a few years. It all comes down to product, we were spoiled when we had top CHL prospects playing for us, they generated buzz. Even top prospects on other teams when they came to town would sell tickets. The price of an adult ticket has increased over the past, the product has declined, simple economics. Would more people watch a game if the tickets were $10 instead of $14?

3,000 @ 14 = $42,000
$42,000 x 36 games = $1,512,000

or

5,000 @ 10 = $50,000
$50,000 x 36 games = $1,800,000

Now that is just ticket sales, 2,000 more people through the door will buy more food/other items.

I think that would be a Cougars decision to lower the prices, but why wouldn't they try that out for a while?

Other questions should be asked on why PG misses out on concerts. Concert revenue hasn't been real big, not too many sell-outs, maybe thats why concert tours pass us by. Grande Prairie gets more concerts than we do, some that will drive right through PG to Kamloops.

Theory of a Deadman, Mobile, Three Days Grace are big acts, stopping in Grande Prairie and Kamloops. Nov 21, they're in GP, 23rd in Kamloops, why not stop here on the 22nd?

Palopu: There are enough hockey fans in this town to support 2 hockey teams. When the Cougars were strong, so were the Spruce Kings. The fans were there, where are they now? I don't know, maybe at the casino.

The casino killed hockey in PG? Maybe. Doubt it.

Maybe we should build a 3,000 seat performing arts centre, I'm sure as taxpayers we wouldn't mind footing the bill to cover the deficit generated by that venture. But we would have the nicest PA Centre in the North though.

Ten years ago when the Cougars had their magical run, people were wondering why we only built a 6,000 seat arena instead of a 7-8,000 seat (or even bigger). The Multiplex/Cougars used to have a decent fan base, average around 5,000 fans for a few years. It all comes down to product, we were spoiled when we had top CHL prospects playing for us, they generated buzz. Even top prospects on other teams when they came to town would sell tickets. The price of an adult ticket has increased over the past, the product has declined, simple economics. Would more people watch a game if the tickets were $10 instead of $14?

3,000 @ 14 = $42,000
$42,000 x 36 games = $1,512,000

or

5,000 @ 10 = $50,000
$50,000 x 36 games = $1,800,000

Now that is just ticket sales, 2,000 more people through the door will buy more food/other items.

I think that would be a Cougars decision to lower the prices, but why wouldn't they try that out for a while?

Other questions should be asked on why PG misses out on concerts. Concert revenue hasn't been real big, not too many sell-outs, maybe thats why concert tours pass us by. Grande Prairie gets more concerts than we do, some that will drive right through PG to Kamloops.

Theory of a Deadman, Mobile, Three Days Grace are big acts, stopping in Grande Prairie and Kamloops. Nov 21, they're in GP, 23rd in Kamloops, why not stop here on the 22nd?

Palopu: There are enough hockey fans in this town to support 2 hockey teams. When the Cougars were strong, so were the Spruce Kings. The fans were there, where are they now? I don't know, maybe at the casino.

The casino killed hockey in PG? Maybe. Doubt it.

Maybe we should build a 3,000 seat performing arts centre, I'm sure as taxpayers we wouldn't mind footing the bill to cover the deficit generated by that venture. But we would have the nicest PA Centre in the North though.

Rounder dont confuse facilities such as the Civic Centre, Arts Centre, Swimming Pools, Library, etc with the Multiplex. These facilities were built and payed for by taxpayers and any money they generate goes back into the running of the facility, the balance is made up by taxpayers. The MultiPlex was built for the Cougers, and other Venues that want to rent the facility. They pay the City. In the case of the Cougers they pay the City approx $150,000.00 per year for rent, and they take out revenue around $1,200,000.00 based on average 3000 fans at $12.00 per ticket.

The problem here is that it it not the responsibility of the City of Prince George, or taxpayers to support this facility to the tune of $350,000.00 per year, so that those using the facility can make a profit. The City cannot go on forever subsidizing the Cougers and other venues that may not be paying their way. Dont for a New York minute think that it is the responsibility of taxpayers to subsidize your Hockey ticket or a ticket to see Gordon Lightfoot.
I suspect that all those that use this facility walk away with a profit and the City gets stuck for $350,000.00 a year.

This was an ill conceived project from the get go and based more on hype and wishful thinking, than good business sense. I suspect that the so-called Hockey Fans in the first few Glorious Years were what I call **Soft Fans**., once the hype died down, and they came to realize that they would have to attend 32 games per year for the rest of thier lives to support this facility and team, they decided to find something else to do.

Contrary to popular opinion with the exception of Hard Core hockey fans, most people find the game boring. This is obviously born out by the fact that these games are now attended by approx 4% of the population. This means that on any given game night, 74000 people in this City are not interested in the game. It also means that for the last year or so at any given game there were 3000 empty seats.

I have no idea how you will ever get the numbers back up to 5000 fans, however if it doesnt happen then at some point something has to give.

If the Multiplex is such a good idea, then why dont we sell it to the Cougers Owners, or some other private business and let them run it? I suspect they wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole because it is a losing proposition, however I could be wrong. Maybe we should sell it.

Rounder. Even if you did get 5000 fans to the games, that would only generate a further $100,000.00 for the City. The Cougers take would go up to approx $1,670,000.00. and the City would still be losing $250,000.00 per year.

The money generated for the City from the Cougers would hardly pay the salaries and benefits for the two individuals that they fired. I would not be suprised if the firings are related to a move to try to reduce costs at this facility. We will have to wait and see if they fill the positions, and what they will pay for them, or if Madden and his staff will try to run the facility.

Ten years ago when the Cougars had their magical run, people were wondering why we only built a 6,000 seat arena instead of a 7-8,000 seat (or even bigger). The Multiplex/Cougars used to have a decent fan base, average around 5,000 fans for a few years. It all comes down to product, we were spoiled when we had top CHL prospects playing for us, they generated buzz. Even top prospects on other teams when they came to town would sell tickets. The price of an adult ticket has increased over the past, the product has declined, simple economics. Would more people watch a game if the tickets were $10 instead of $14?

3,000 @ 14 = $42,000
$42,000 x 36 games = $1,512,000

or

5,000 @ 10 = $50,000
$50,000 x 36 games = $1,800,000

Now that is just ticket sales, 2,000 more people through the door will buy more food/other items.

I think that would be a Cougars decision to lower the prices, but why wouldn't they try that out for a while?

Other questions should be asked on why PG misses out on concerts. Concert revenue hasn't been real big, not too many sell-outs, maybe thats why concert tours pass us by. Grande Prairie gets more concerts than we do, some that will drive right through PG to Kamloops.

Theory of a Deadman, Mobile, Three Days Grace are big acts, stopping in Grande Prairie and Kamloops. Nov 21, they're in GP, 23rd in Kamloops, why not stop here on the 22nd?

Palopu: There are enough hockey fans in this town to support 2 hockey teams. When the Cougars were strong, so were the Spruce Kings. The fans were there, where are they now? I don't know, maybe at the casino.

The casino killed hockey in PG? Maybe. Doubt it.

Maybe we should build a 3,000 seat performing arts centre, I'm sure as taxpayers we wouldn't mind footing the bill to cover the deficit generated by that venture. But we would have the nicest PA Centre in the North though.

Sounds like a re-run to me.

Ok that is weird, why it would post my comments 3 times, my apologies.

Obviously the city is getting screwed (lol) and the Cougars are the ones laughing. I don't exactly know the details of the CN Centre/Cougars/City of PG deal, but if the Cougars only have to pay a percentage of their revenue to the City for rent that is plain bad accounting.

If it costs the City $600,000 a year to operate the facility year-round, thats close to $1,650 a day. Do the Cougars pay to use the ice for practice/training camp or is that part of the deal? They don't generate any revenue on these days, but the City has to pay the bills?

Ticketmaster is the real winner in the deal, but thats another story. I agree that the facility is a losing venture now, maybe one day it will shine again. But by then it will be out-dated and the Cougars will want upgrades or a new facility.

Now if they sold beer in the place (allowed in the seats), the ticket sales would likely increase and revenue generated from the booze could off-set the deficit????????????????

One has to wonder if the two employees let go, were on borrowed time already. This last straw was all the city needed to justify replacing them. I don't think that this is a new issue for anyone involved. Do you? Chester

"Nov 21, they're in GP, 23rd in Kamloops, why not stop here on the 22nd?"

They need a break and they need to set up their systems. Unless they have two sets and two crews, it is virtually impossible to do for anyone putting on a professional show.

Dont know what the arrangement is for using the ice for practice but would bet it is covered by the ticket sales agreement, which is.

The City get 12.5% of gross sales up to $1,500,000.00. and 15% for sales over that number. Your would need to average 4000 fans per game to gross $1,500,000.00 per year. Average attendence per game in 2005 was 3108 fans. So we have a problem.

The cost to run this facility, Staff, Heat, Electricity, etc; exceed income by $350,000.00 per year and has been that way for the last 4/5 years. This represents a huge loss with more staring us in the face in the future.

Whats the solution?????