These are all **Buzz Words** for **Were going broke**

As I have said from the Get Go. If they cannot come up with an increase in students then this University is in trouble. The long term forecasts for students graduating grade 12 in the Northern Interior, between now and 2015 are not good and in fact will be in a decline. In addition there is competition from Kamloops, Kelowna, and the Lower Mainland for these students. In addition the long term forcast for population increases in the North Central Interior for the foseeable future are in the 1 to 1.5% area.

Had an indepth analysis of the availability of students over the long term been done before this University was built, it would have never gone ahead. It was built primarily for political reasons, and not as a sound long term investment, and the chickens are now coming home to roost.

I beleive that the Universitys budget is somewhere in the area of $56,000,000.00 per year the majority of which is spent on Faculty and Staff, so I expect that in a short period of time staff reductions will be the order of the day.

They never should have accepted the BMO "donation" of the downtown campus. It is not needed, was a very expensive donation in that the University spent $500,000 getting the building ready for occupancy and no clear plan of what to do with the building.

Mean while BMO gets a good tax write off for a building that would have never sold in downtown PG. That was a stroke of genius on their behalf.

I agree on the BMO thing.

IMO why not have a big 50/50 draw region wide for the university to cover the shortfall? Someone in the region would be $2 million dollars richer because of the projected shortfall. President Don Cozzetto would look like a genius when he balances the books.

Stop building the sports center until yo have a bigger surplus....
problem solved...
what a bunch of word benders....

This really is no surprise - I remember when the whole idea for a northern university was floated and it was supposed to be a university for all of us in northern BC - not just another campus-based university. So what do we now have - another campus university offering almost nothing to those of us outside of PG. They are missing out on a large group of potential students - those of us who would like to continue our university studies but for various reasons cannot attend a campus university. Where is the virtual university we were promised?

JJR your comment I wonder about though as there is a full campus in Quesnel, Terrace and Fort St. John. Both Quesnel and Terrace have new buildings actually and there is also an agreement with Northern Lights College such that UNBC has remote campus locations in places like Dawson Creek, Hudson's Hope, Chetwynd, Atlin, Dease Lake. There is even some sort of campus in Prince Rupert in conjunction with the college out there

The mandate of the University was never to have a virtual university, if you want that try Athabasca or any of the other BC Government online education systems.

On a side note UNBC was or is trying to create a virtual University in an attempt to get those more rural students and to increase it's base of students. So far the provincial government has shot the idea down but there are other ministries to try yet for hopefully one of them is actually thinking what is good for the University versus their own agendga.

The majority of the operating funding for the Sports Plex is to come from Students $25.00 per semester $200,000.00 per year, and a membership fee for 500 Faculty, $100,000.00 per year. The balance of the cost for this facility per annum to come from user fees, etc; ($600,000.00) Whats the chance of this building ever paying its expenses.

If your student population is flat lined and maybe declining and you intend to reduce faculty and staff, then you are already in trouble for yearly expenses.

Being owned by the City and UNBC if the Sports Plex cannot pay for its operating expenses guess who gets to pick up the tab?

Oh no! spare us poor taxpayers.
Not another tab to pick up?
Is anything the city gets involved with a paying proposition?
We can ill afford any further expenses.

Maybe the university can do some "in-house hiring" if they ever get someone there to enroll in an economics course. With all the land claims coming in maybe economics should be part of First Nations programs. What about lottery money? Why a 50/50 draw? Why not have a bake sale to raise funds instaed?

Have some house lotteries. The big hospitals in the lower mainland do it....and the ticket sales are enormous. Don't see why the university can't do the same.

"Where is the virtual university we were promised?"

Gone the way of the DODO bird.

The BC virtual campus was the Open Learning Agency which did not have a campus to speak of. It had a building in the buisness park across from BCIT which housed its program and materials development arm as well as its registrar and instruction administration arms.

They also developed local "skills" centres where one could talk to a few people and hook into group discussions over teleconferencing systems - the one we all forget about as some go "gaga" over the one the medical program here has that connects them with the UBC campus and ptentially doctors working in the field in Inuvik if they really wanted to deal with the practice of "remote" and "rural" medicine.

How easy we forget! .... remember that old saying: "those who do not learn from history are destined to relive it"

Go to http://www.athabascau.ca

and now a word from the sponsor :-)

"Athabasca University, Canada’s Open University, is one of the world’s foremost and fastest growing online and distance education specialists, serving 34,000 students worldwide. AU offers over 700 courses in more than 60 undergraduate and graduate degree, diploma and certificate programs."

The beauty of a virtual university is that it does not have to be local ... in fact, if I were to set one up, I would do it in the Cayman Islands ... :-)

"In addition there is competition from Kamloops, Kelowna, and the Lower Mainland for these students."

Remember, it costs the same to travel, no matter which direction one goes. In addition, so far the cost of living in PG is lower than in the lower mainland.

Then there is the big one. All those campuses are looking at ALL of BC to draw their students from. Why should we restrict ourselves? If we do, we will most certainly stay far behind. So we need to have strategies in place to look far beyond the North of this province. We need to look at retention in the North, but also importing into the North for a whole number of reasons.

The medical program here is a good example of such a strategy. In the foreseeable future, not all of them will have a medical program, for instance. UBC, UVIc, UNBC and UBC Okanagan in Kelowna (the possible start of a "provincial university") appropriate given the name and something UBC should have done a long time ago. Then we would not be in the fix we have been in.

Strong First Nations programs might be another option, although we are not the only one with First Nations and we should not expect members of the Nlaka'pamux Nation to be heading this way to take First Nations programs.

I just hope that Charles Jago did not steer UNBC in a direction without making sure that there was enough fuel on board to stay the course as he handed it over. Hopefully he did not leave the ship for the new captain to find the fuel.

If he left UNBC in ship-shape, then I hope that the new captain understands the plan, is capable of carrying it out, and does not head back to port and die since we are in many ways ahead of the others.

Lunarguy and owl - I was living in Smithers when the whole idea of UNBC was raised by the NDP and participated in the community consultations in Smithers. At the time the concept of the university was to be a new and innovative institution that would develop new methods to serve a population spread across a huge geographical area - and would be a model to the world. All we have now is another university the same as any other in this province - it just happens to be in PG. I now live in Prince Rupert and am well aware of the small satellite campuses - which basically offer squat! They exist solely so that UNBC can say they have satellite campuses. UNBC offers almost nothing in the way of online courses and almost all programs need to be finished off on campus in PG. I have taken Athabasca U courses (and have a BA have completed a fair bit of graduate work back in my younger days) but since moving to the "north" almost 20 years ago the opportunities for university study are pretty much non-existent. UNBC was supposed to be the answer - but quickly morphed into just another university empire based upon the physical campus model.

jjr I believe the ecomonies of scale would be why a full degree program could not be offered in all these small towns but as in the example of Terrace a Bed and Nursing is now available. That is a pretty good accomplishment given the location and size of community would you not agree ?

I need to take courses in Veterinary. They are only offered in Saskatchewan. So does that mean UNBC is a failure because it doesn't have what I need ?

jjr ....

That may very well have been the story in Smithers. What else are they going to say? They were trying to sell a product. They may even have thought that they could do that.

So, we have a few possibilities here.

You may have heard something which they did not exactly say, perhaps because that is what you wanted to hear and that is what they were hoping you would hear. You know, like spin doctors.

There is the possibility that they actually thought they could do it. How they planned to do it, I do not know because I never heard anything of the sort in Prince George, probably because that is not the way they had to "sell' the idea here.

Given that in the mid 60's, when U of Toronto built their Scarborough campus as an ultramodern building, the lecture rooms were interconnected with audio visual setups which allowed lectures in one theatre to be hooked up to other lectures rooms for large classes, including two way communication, it would not be a stretch to take that across the city, the province, the country, and the world.

So now we have the med school using a more modern version of the same technology some 40 years later and everyone goes ooh and aah, but no one puts 2 and 2 together and provides a simple course in international marketing (comm 441) to the students in PG as well as one in Smithers, 3 in Prince Rupert, and 1 in Fort Nelson as well as 437 spread all over the USA with 2 from South Africa.

I think those who have been to University know that such things are quite possible to do if one had the will to do them.

When it comes to a fourth year, or even a second year level course in Biochemistry, it becomes a different matter all together.

So, there are still limits as to what one can take by distance education, even given today's technology. Many who have experienced a rich environment at a University will also dispute that any University course can be delivered through distance education.

A university education goes far beyond a first year lecture in Economics 100 to 800 in an auditorium and an interactive seminar on urbanization in the developing world with a group of 9 post grad students.

It is an experience of a lifetime that shapes many. For others, it is drudgery they think they have to go through to get a job.

Oh, in case someone thinks it is wishfull thinking that 437 students in the USA would take a course in International marketing from little ole UNBC in the middle of nowhere, it would not be if the UNBC would negotiate transfer credit to marketing programs at several state universities for those wanting to major in international marketing, for example and it would become a requirement for students at UNBC to take a distance ed course at a foreign university with a reciprocal arrangement between those universities and UNBC.

After all, networking is part of marketing and there is nothing like starting students at university off by givening them a leg up in making international connections if that is what they aspire to do to start off their careers.

Of course, going to the other campus for a semester would be even better, in my view.

The there is another notion one has to consider. Not only students in remote areas, but also students in large urban centres have had to go to univerities in other centres since time immemorial. The reasons are as many as there are people.

For those who cannot go because of finances, there is a question which needs ot be asked. How much more than the regular tuition fee is a student in a remote centre willing to pay to take a distance education course in their home community so that they do not have to pay for housing, relocation, etc.? How about 50% of the cost of the additional living and travelling expenses?

The service fees at UNBC are ridiculous. $500 for one course and another $150 for student fees for associations most will not be involved in. Then add in another $150 for your books and your out $800, times that by 40 for a degree. The focus should be on providing affordable and accessible education IMO.

Well ... you got a choice ... take a 3 hour per week course at UNBC, for which you have study time, time with a prof. time to discuss theories and practice with students and pay $500 for the course ....

or go to a 3 day course given by the Canadian Management centre for 2,000 bucks .....

and, of course, fly to Toronto, stay at a hotel for $130+ per night, eat restaurant meals and take cabs ... full course cost is $3,500 or so and you get what??????

So, you can see how the government is subsidizing education. I think it is roughly at a 5:1 ratio depending on the type of program.

[url]http://www.cmctraining.org/reg/course.asp?sid=0&course_id=35512-XCNE&cat_id=12[url]

However, I do agree that University and College level education should be free tuition as long as you can maintain a passing grade and don't keep dropping courses and switching programs.

I do not know how it works these days or locally as far as books go, but at UofT one could get used books at half price. So, as long as the profs did not switch texts too often, it worked out okay.

So, just a quick measure. 40 semester courses at 500/course = $20,000 for tuition alone plus $150 per semester for student fees times 8 semesters = $1,200 for a total of $21,200.

A Corolla costs about $16,000 these days.

When I finished university I bought a demo Corolla for around $2,000 and I was paying about $500 per semester for the program I was in. So 4 years was $4,000 or about twice the price of a Corolla .....

So where is the beef??

If you are PLANNING A SHORTFALL...
you should be fired.....

When you build a University, or Schools, etc; you normally build them to provide an education for your Citizens. (Usually within a defined area)

There is a lot of philosphical ramblings going on here that while somewhat interesting are very far removed from reality.

Anyone with a dog and a walking stick knows that you can have distant learning in any University anywhere in the world, much like you have Call Centers all over the world. Maybe one of the reasons we dont have it, is because you would make a significant less amount of money, and provide fewer high paid jobs through that type of a system than the Standard University Model.

When you look at the statistics you see that a large percentage of students do not finish high school, then you will note that a large percentage of them that do finish do not go on to University. There are more people going to University to-day, not because they want to, but because a lot of companies will not hire you, even for a (Level entry job) unless you have at least 2 years University. This is not because they require the higher education, it is because with the screwed up school system we have to-day there is no way to determine whether a person with a grade 12 education has actually learned anything, or if he/she was just moved through the system, and dumped out as a graduate.

If companies insist on a prospective employee having 2 years University they then at least know that the person was able to pass the entrance exams, and stick it out at University for a few years.

The previous system of failing students who didnt meet certain standards in High School would weed out a lot of people, and the designation **Grade 12** would have more meaning, to-day it means nothing to employers.

I suggest that if you look at the number of students entering University, and the number of them gone after 2 years you would see that the numbers bear this out.

So at the end of the day there is a small percentage of the population that acutally attends University, and this is the way it has always been. If everyone attended we would not have any jobs for them that would require all this education. In fact we do not have jobs for all the people who graduate from Universites even now.

I seriously doubt if UNBC will ever go beyond where it is to-day. It is a big world out there and people are getting more and more options every day. To assume that they will come to Prince George for their education is a bit of a stretch.

On the one hand we boast about the small class size at UNBC which gives us a higher rating in Macleans Magazine, while we all know full well, that this is a direct result of our inability to attract students, and if we had our druthers we would sooner have more students, and a lower rating in Macleans.

I would say that Jago much like most CEO'S could see the writing on the wall and left on a high note. The new President will have to make the tough decisions, in regards to cost reductions, and down sizing etc;

The mere fact that the University is admitting that student enrollment has remained flat for the past 5 years, is at least a beginning, because once you admit that you have a problem, then you can begin to try to solve it.

Its time we finished with all the Hype and Progaganda, and started to deal with the realitys.

(1) This University is in trouble, and probably should never have been built.

(2) Now that we have the albatross around our neck how do we get it off.

(3) One student who started at the University 4 years ago with a class of 20, is to-day the only student left in that class. Would you ever have this type of a situation at a University in the Greater Vancouver area, where you have sufficient students, and higher standards.

(3) The entry grade average requirement for students at UNBC is 65% while at Uvic,Unbc,Simon Fraser is 80%, and therefore the fact that we accept students with the 65% grade average is an admission that we have a problem attracting students. We try to get around this obvious fact by stating that the average entering grade is 80%, however this means nothing in regards to accepting students with at 65% grade average.

(4) While the programs for training Doctors at UNBC is a good idea,( based of the flawed reasoning that if you train them in this area, they will stay in this area), and this will not be proven to be true or not for years down the road. There are other problems with this idea that do not see the light of day.

(A) It does not logically follow that there are sufficient people in this area to fill out the Doctor positions at UNBC, and therefore some of these students will have to come from other areas, including Vancouver.

(B) There are only so many positions that become available each year and because of our connection with UBC they determine who will get the positions. We now have a situation that some students in the lower mainland, if they want to become a Doctor have to take their training in Prince George, or wait for a few years for an opportunity to take it at UBC. Having to take training in Prince George, may sound like a good idea to us locals, however you can rest assured that it does not impress people from the lower mainland.

- "This University is in trouble, and probably should never have been built."

time to tear it down ... or get the homeless from Vancouver up to live in it ...

No need to respond in any other fashion since we are both starting to sound like player pianos with a single drum on this issue....

;-)

"because of our connection with UBC they determine who will get the positions"

I suggest to do a bit of checking before you make unfounded statements like that. Not that it really matters. The best students based on many cirteria ought to get in even if they were selected by an Albanian university.

BTW, in Ontario there is a central application centre for 5, and now 6, medical schools. If you do not get in at the school of your choice you might be offered a seat at another program.

Here are the stats:

http://www.ouac.on.ca/news/medappstats.html

Notice that the their new northern school which has been created for the same reason we did, has the highest number of applcants for seats in the first two years of operation.

So, while some perceived a need, the applications showed there was a demand or want on the part of people entering the system.

Sorry I cannot point you to a similar single site for such stats in BC or other provinces. Maybe someone can find one or more.

(1) We cant tear it down as we have gone to far down the road. We now have to try and make it as good a University as we can under the circumstances. This will be a major test for all concerned and it will be interesting too see how it unfolds.

(2) If you have more people applying for postions at UBC than are available, then if there are vacancies in Prince George these people will come to Prince George to take their training. I assume that the process would start for them at UBC as that is where they would originally apply.

My point is that they are not impressed at being forced to come here for their training, and would prefer to do it all in Vancouver.