Let these DONKEYS pay for it,Instead of raiseing our taxes.

79,000 people in PG...150 people turn out...and the press calls that a good turn out...What a bunch of Bull...t

I think on paper it is a great idea...

Will it be self sufficient? I doubt it..

Will the taxpayers be on the hook each and every year to help make ends meet? I think so.

Should we have too? I don't beleive so...

if the peole who want it can't afford it then put it on the back burner until you can....

And as for the sports center.... we will be paying for that as well! but why?

A few stuffed shirts show up and the Mayor wants their support...What do you think is going to happen....This is still a blue collar town...and I don't beleive the blue collars want to pay for something every year for something they will never, or hardly ever go to see. But you will find them all at the sports centre, and not mind paying for that. Why does everyone have to pay for so few.

Stuffed shirts???

Donkeys??

Is that all you can come up with?

I hope you people vote with your heads when elections come up next fall, not with your mouths!

This project will fly inspite of your invective(look it up) remarks.

Maybe Mr. Offset will contribute some of his considerable taxpayer-funded earnings to the project before he packs up his carpet bag and leaves Prince George next year.

Well once the sports facilities in town start paying their way, then we should make the Performance Centre do the same. Until then that is the joy of taxes, they go towards facilities for the overall good of everyone and not just what you want them to.

Oh runner i have no doubt of this happening....
I suppose they need something in the downtown core besides a bingo hall ( when ever they get the stones figured out!)

I'm happy to see something positive being presented for the community. I would've have gone to the meeting if I lived in town and I don't consider myself a stuffed shirt or a blue collar. There are truly other life forms living in the area and more are coming in-scary, eh? Some of us have been here awhile, years even hoping that there will actually be something to do or take part in that doesn't involve sports, or fitness. I hope it is not another disappointment but will be a facility that many can enjoy for various activities. God knows we need something interesting around here.

Gofaster........your comments on who will pay for the short falls on operating costs is well founded. I have yet to see a public facility that is a profitable venture. Think about it, if a business case can be made for such a thing, why would the public purse be involved in the first case.

With the "ownership" of a public facility does come the nice warm feeling of debt in some way shape or form.

Don Mackenzie (and other naysayers),

You may not think getting 150 people out (more like 200 - I was there, the room was set for 180, and there were extra chairs added and standing room).

But let's look at the numbers in context:

According to Opinion250 News:

***

"Talking Health Care", sponsored by the BC Government and Service Employees Union and the Prince George and District Labour Council ... saw about 30 people turn out to express their feelings about health care in the region , and in most cases how it has affected them and their families

***

Full story here:
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/4921/1/health+forum+says+no+to+for+profit+health?id=143&st=40

And

***

This afternoon’s open house hosted by City staff on a proposed four-percent road rehabilitation levy drew more than double last night’s attendanceof 20...

Full story here:
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/4788/1/noon-hour+turn+out+better+for+road+tax+open+house?id=143&st=170

***

So, the COMBINED INTEREST in Health Care and Road Rehabilitation over THREE MEETINGS is only 90 - 100 people, while the interest based on ONE meeting for a performing arts centre is at least DOUBLE that.

I would say there is much more interest in all these initiatives than just the number that show up to the meeting.

But if attendance to public meetings is a strong indicator of broader community interest (and they are), then your narrow, negative perspective is very much in the minority.

Its a hell of a lot easier to get people to come out and support something, rather than opposes something. Especially when it will be others picking up your tab.

People living on the streets, demands on local foodbanks higher than they've ever been, air quality in the crapper, pawn shops and pay-day loansharks every other storefront, social service agencies being overworked and not funded...
Hey! Let's build a performing arts centre!

Hey, lets expand and diversify our economy so we can develop and attract new weath that can help those living on the sreets, those that are underemployed and build a population that contributes money and human resources to social service agencies.

Hey, Let's build a performing arts centre!

Bohemian, if you actually think that a PAC will generate money for the community, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. I'll be amazed if the thing, if built, even breaks even.
If you want to "expand and diversify our economy so we can develop and attract new weath", then why a PAC? Why an arts centre that will only appeal to a very small sub-set of the town? What has the Playhouse or TNW done to "build a population that contributes money and human resources to social service agencies"?
I'm all for diversifying the local economy, but a PAC isn't going to do that in any tangible way.

"but a PAC isn't going to do that in any tangible way.

Raparee ..... you just wrote the operative word ... "tangible"

There is very little that can be said to be tangible when one deals with investing $ into a community .....

1. pay people more ... they will fly out of here and spend the money in Cancun ... or buy stoves n Edmonton ... or send money to their family in a foreign country ... the options are endless ...

2. put in another retail outlet .... existing ones will do less business ...

3. repair roads .... less business for car repair shops ... people typically will not leave a community due to bad roads .. too many other cities in Canada that can lay claim to the pothole captial of the country .. and those who come from other communities know that.

4. spend money on tourism promotion .... try to count the $ spent .. it is all conjecture .....

5. create another job .... some say it will generate another .... some say 1.5 others ... some say 2 others .... no one really knows ... the town is too small to do any statistically meaningful studies ...

6. $ into a community library ... that's the feel good one... kids .. hockey for kids .. soccer for kids .. skateparks for kids .. dirt bike tracks of kids .. pools for kids .. ballparks for kids ....

7. $ for a running track .... now there is a low use facility if I ever saw one .. seems like about 2 football games a year??? how many track events? Zippo??? great for walkers who don't like to walk in parks ... I do not think we keep too many in this community because we have a track ....

Anyway ... give me some tangible things that we spend money on that keeps people in the community. The one tangible thing is low housing costs .. and we are doing our best to kill that just so that those who are about to retire can finally sell and leave so that they do not have to pay too much more in other locations ....

After you remove those things on a list of things people will include as important reasons for why they will move to one community rather than another (low cost of housing, short commute to work, proximity to outdoors, reasonable shopping, good schools, including post secondary, proximity to good health care, etc.) you will start seeing things such as sports and entertainment. Performing arts will likely have a higher or at the least relatively similar ratings as fine arts, ice ovals, running tracks, tennis courts, etc.

So, again, give me something that will diversify the economy in a tangible and meaningful way .. The reason I ask that is because if we can do that, then we will be able to take the excess money and spend it on those things which some consider to be frivolous ...

Sound like a deal???

BTW ... Santa Fe New Mexico has a population of about 65,000 with a metro population of about twice that.

It has an opera house. When the City was considerably smaller, in 1957, the Santa Fe Opera was established in a 480 seat theatre. I am talking Opera here, not musicals, not stage plays, not the Bare Naked Ladies.

An 1,800 + theatre was opened in 1967 ... still a small community.

Then in 1998, the existing 2,100+ seat Opera theatre was openend.

Last year they celebrated their 50th anniversary ....

Santa Fe, a little hick town in the high plateau of New Mexico ... who would have thought ....

http://www.santafeopera.org/artistic/history.php?

Does anyone here think that a can do attitude had anything to do with it??????

You had better!!!!!

And you guys think us northerners are made of different material than those big city whimps .... well, I don't think so! ...

With people like you guys and gals, we might as well fold shop.

Glad that things worked out well in New Mexico, but having or not having a can-do attitude has nothing to do with my resistance to this idea. How would a PAC improve our community? How would it generate capital or encourage investment in the city? How would it improve the lot of the man being turned away from the Sally Ann because they've run out of food? Would it help create one more low rental apartment? Would it help fund a school breakfast program? What would it do to help women looking to exit the sex trade? How blind it is to even consider such a frivolous use of money in light of all that's wrong with this city!
When I moved to PG in 1997 I was stunned at the magnitude of the social problems that this town is suffering with compared to the similar sized cities I'd previously lived in. What did the city do to address these problems? Well, first they built an art gallery. Then they approved the building of a gaming centre across the street from the art gallery. And now, talk of a performing arts centre. Fiddling while Rome burns? Looks like it to me.

Raparee, if you are prepared to do the research, here's some places you can start:

http://www.danpink.com/
http://creativeclass.org/
http://www.alvintoffler.net/
http://naisbitt.com/
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_35/b3696002.htm
http://www.nefa.org/projinit/createecon/index.html
http://www.amazon.com/Medici-Effect-Elephants-Epidemics-Innovation/dp/1422102823/sr=8-1/qid=1171770462/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0056020-8504733?ie=UTF8&s=books
http://www.canadacouncil.ca/aboutus/advocacy/

I'll stop now because I dont' think it will matter; you're likely set in your ways.

Noted futurist and best selling author John Naisbit gives us an interesting example in his new book, "Mindset."

He says that for a long time doctors (backed by good science) believed ulcers were caused by stress induced excess stomach acid. There were some brutal treatments created to deal with this, including some major surgery. But in 1982 it was discovered that it's not stomach acid that causes ulcers, but it's actually bacteria that can easily be treated with antibiotics.

But many not in the medical profession still believe ulcers are caused by stomach acid.

Do you?

http://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/ulcer.html

Sorry about not using url tags for above. Just copy and paste.

Glad that things worked out well in New Mexico, but having or not having a can-do attitude has nothing to do with my resistance to this idea. How would a PAC improve our community? How would it generate capital or encourage investment in the city? How would it improve the lot of the man being turned away from the Sally Ann because they've run out of food? Would it help create one more low rental apartment? Would it help fund a school breakfast program? What would it do to help women looking to exit the sex trade? How blind it is to even consider such a frivolous use of money in light of all that's wrong with this city!
When I moved to PG in 1997 I was stunned at the magnitude of the social problems that this town is suffering with compared to the similar sized cities I'd previously lived in. What did the city do to address these problems? Well, first they built an art gallery. Then they approved the building of a gaming centre across the street from the art gallery. And now, talk of a performing arts centre. Fiddling while Rome burns? Looks like it to me.

In all honesty, Raparee, if you are looking for solutions to social ills, and it sounds like your heart is in the right place and you want us to be smart with our money, you deserve to look at this, particularly point 3 - The arts help create healthy communities capable of action, and point 4 - The arts can serve as a powerful tool for community mobilization and activism:
http://www.creativecity.ca/resources/making-the-case/arts-positive-change-2.html

Thanks for the links, bohemian, but only two of them were in the least bit relevant, and neither of them were reliable. Resources from the Canada Council for the Arts and the New England Foundation for the Arts. Biased. Show me some independant data (non-ulcer related please... wtf!?) that would indicate that building a centre for the performing arts in a town like PG would help those in our community who most need help.

I understand that the arts can be a powerful tool in mobilizing people into social action, but with the current playhouse, TNW, Two Rivers Gallery, and all the other arts 'agencies' in town, I haven't seen it.

Ever hear about Street Spirits Theatre Company?

http://www.streetspirits.com/

When you see a pair of down-and-outers downtown, have you ever consider that you may be seeing two street people instead of three because of an arts program?

You are forgetting to count what you don't see.

I'm not saying a PAC is the magic bullet, nor am I saying that art and culture is the entire answer. It's a very positive part of the solution, however.

"When you see a pair of down-and-outers downtown, have you ever consider that you may be seeing two street people instead of three because of an arts program?"

Specious argument. Maybe I'm seeing two instead of one because so much money went into the gallery, etc...

And yes, Street Spirits is a fantastic organization and a fine example of how arts can raise social awareness. Youth Around Prince George should be commended. Their funding, however, is provincial, through the Ministry for Children and Family Development. Essentially Street Spirits is a social advocacy group, and not a theatre company. Usually a theatre company requires a theatre.

"When you see a pair of down-and-outers downtown, have you ever consider that you may be seeing two street people instead of three because of an arts program?"

Specious argument. Maybe I'm seeing two instead of one because so much money went into the gallery, etc...

And yes, Street Spirits is a fantastic organization and a fine example of how arts can raise social awareness. Youth Around Prince George should be commended. Their funding, however, is provincial, through the Ministry for Children and Family Development. Essentially Street Spirits is a social advocacy group, and not a theatre company. Usually a theatre company requires a theatre.

Raparee, maybe you're seeing two instead of one because so much money was spent on CN Centre, the Aquatic Centre, Four Seasons Pool, the rinks, the baseball stadium, the softball fields...

"Usually a theatre company requires a theatre." -- That is exactly what we are saying. They also require rehearsal space, set construciton shop, production offices, etc.

Yes Street Spirits is a social advocacy group, but their medium is theatre. Couldn't theatre or other art play a larger roll in more advocacy projects for more groups? Maybe people aren't getting your message because the art used (or lack of it) to communicate your position isn't effective. Perhaps you could partner with the arts community to work together to use their art to tell your message.

The issues I believe you are concerned about are much bigger than just money, and money alone won't solve them. In fact, some of the biggest needs of all aren't even financial.

Interesting dialogue. Bottom line is that Prince George and many other Cities through out Canada have got along quite well without a high priced under utilized Performing Arts Centre, for the past 100 years.

We all know that there is a certain segment of Prince George **Society** that would give their first born for a PAC and they have little or no regard to who pays for it. These are the same people who pushed for, and got the expensive, but totally under utilized Art Centre.

I dont begrudge them their PAC however I would be interested in seeing how they plan to utilize this building and how much money it is going to cost.

I would also remind them that this PAC idea was voted down in 1992 and if it goes to a referendum it could be voted down again.

I would also remind people that the City is supposed to be at arms length when it comes to referendums, and I fail to see how they will be able to be at arms length, when IPG and City Centre Ventures who seem to be heading up this initiave are funded by the City. It appears that the powers to be want to get all their ducks in order and then try to push this through.

I say that they should put a price tag on it and then go to the referendum and let it stand or fall like any other tax payer funded project.

We know that those in favour have far more money, more contact at City Hall, more contact with the business community through various clubs, etc; this was obvious by the number who attended the meeting, more contact with various organisations, etc that they should be able to get it passed through a referendum.

Those opposed have only one tool and that is to write letters to the editor and then only get into print once every 3 weeks.

Referendums in this town are heavily weighted to those who have money and power. We know from past experience that it is these people more than any other that have no problem spending tax payers dollars.

Leisure Services provides low- or no-cost access to sports facilities in PG for people who can't afford passes. With the exception of CN Place, but that's a private facility, not a municipal one. These facilities provide the opportunity for kids to get off the street and do something constructive with their time, so they get a pass.
Street Spirits is a travelling troup, so a theatre for them wouldn't be a practical expense.
You're right. The concerns I have are for more than the money, although that money wouldn't solve the problems this town faces, it would help. My prime beef is with the fact that there are people in this town who feel that a PAC is a more worthwhile expense than people. That there are people who would put their own desire for entertainment ahead of the basic needs of some of our communities most desperate people.

Palopu - the referendum you speak of goes back further than 1992; 1986 I believe. That was 20 YEARS AGO. Surely you understand the nature of our economy has changes, that different skills are required than 20 years ago, that people deciding to invest in or move to a community our size (or another) expect different things than 20 years ago.

Read this articl from BusinessWeek:
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_35/b3696002.htm

Read the book "A Whole New Mind:Why right-brainers will rule the future" by Daniel Pink.

His blog is found here:
http://www.danpink.com

Not all things must go to a referendum; the $12,000,000 civic centre did not, for example. And many other "tax payer funder projects," like $1,000,000 score clocks and $1,300,000 baseball stadiums and $1,000,000 games events and $30,000,000 sports centres, and $2,500,000 rink connector projects...

Raparee, I challenge to find one person who believs a building is more important than people, especially a person from the arts and culture sector. In fact, a PAC is all about people. It goes way beyond the consumers of entertainment, but the development of people and connectons and community through creating art.

You may want to talk the the Art Gallery and Exploration Place about the opportunities they offer low-income households, especially programs for kids.

The Art Gallery is free to all on Thursdays between 3 and 9 pm.

CN Centre is a city facility, not a private facility.

Raparee, Sreet Spirits likely requires much more than a place to travel to perform. They need administrative resources and space, they need meeting and rehearsal space, they need to rub shoulders with other artists and community builders to develop skills and new relationships and discover new opportunities to expand their possibilities and enhance the impact they have on their audience. (bad run-on sentence; it's late)

Maybe they're happy with their current home, but a Centre for the Arts (let's stop calling it a Performing Arts Centre) offers many resources for groups like them and others.

Street Spirits has administrative support through YAP, and, if needed, could access space at TNW, Vanier Hall or the Playhouse. If they felt the urge to hob with the artistic nobs, they could do so there.
"...In fact, a PAC is all about people. It goes way beyond the consumers of entertainment, but the development of people and connectons and community through creating art."
Simply put... you can't eat art. While listening to Chopin may feed your soul, it won't give a homeless youth a safe place to sleep. Will a PAC 'develop' more funding to the soup kitchens? Will it provide 'connections' between food and the food banks? You have still yet to show me how crating a PAC will improve the lives of PG people in crisis, or how building a PAC is more important than funding programs that will help these people.

The owners of CN Place lease the property from the city. It may be dity owned, but it's privately run.

Reparee, I work as a graphic artist, many of my clients are from the arts and cultural sector, my wife's jobs all involve the performing arts.

So let's cut out all arts and culture support.

You'll find five more of us on the street, at the food bank.

There is a whole economy surrounding arts and culture, and it permiates through the entire economy.

Some would say the best social program is a good job. I couldn't agree more.

I'd agree too. SO how about focusing our energies on creating reliable jobs then?

You can't eat art? It's what feeds our family.

And many, many others. And plays an important roll in the success of many, many businesses. And there are large employers that employ a hundred or more that are all about art - Like the Citizen - words & pictures, or the four radio stations - music and voice performance; then there are the art supply businesses, the photoghraphers, the advertising agencies, the music shops, the dance studios, the music studios, the theatre companies, the art teachers, ...

Creative Economy = good jobs.

Wow.............I got lost about five thousand words ago. All good stuff. Looks like we have a live one to talk about for the next few months.

Gonna be fun.

"Simply put... you can't eat art" ...????

I eat wood all the time .. especially 2x4's wrapped in kraft paper .. the paper gives it that special taste ..

You know Raparee, sometimes you make sense .. at other times you just shoot from the hip and miss badly .... I think we could actually work things out together ... those problems you are concerned about are issues I think many of us would like to improve ..

Those who drive BMW's and Jags and sit in $3 million condos overlooking Burrard Inlet learned a long time ago to get off the farms and work in the knowledge industry ... they extract ideas from people rather than hay from the fields, wood from the forests, fur from the animals and metal ore from the ground ....

A few are lucky enough to have gotten involved with almost the only extraction industry still paying off .. oil and gas ......

But once we are over that 100 year or so dependency, even they will have to go back to extracting knowledge from people ....

Alberta already realizes that, as I posted a day or so ago, and is offering $20million per head to lure thinkers to the province to work on how to move into the next economy .....

BTW ... while walking around downtown Vancouver today I ran across another one of those stupid theatrical events .. a location shoot for a movie ... $1 billion plus industry in BC .. Kelowna is building a sound stage ... that will mean more production .... More stuff we won't be able to eat ....

Open your mind and find out what western world economy is all about .... the industrial revolution is over, just as the agricultural revolution is over ....

You want to diversify, you say. Well, it is difficult to diversify with a closed mind. Barkerville found that out a long time ago.

Raparee: The CN Centre is owned by the city and managed by the city, staffed by city employees. CN just pays a paltry amount to have naming rights to the centre. They do not contribute directly in any way to the operation of the facility.

Interesting about the impression some have as to ownership of the CN centre.

$15million construction + $1million per year operating .. and $100,000 per year or so will put your name up in lights so much so that some actually believe that the place is onwed by CN.

And why not. Most people do not follow those kind of things. So, they are the very ones the CNs of the world bank on when they get an opportunity to put their name in lights.

Of course, it has that other benefit to the City in that those same people do not think of it as their building paid for with their taxpayer money.

Owl says "Open your mind and find out what western world economy is all about .... the industrial revolution is over, just as the agricultural revolution is over..."

Dan Pink, in his book "A Whole New Mind: Why right-brainers will rule the future," does a wonderful job explaining the economic progression:

Agriculture Age (farmers) =>

Industrial Age (factory workeres) =>

Information Age (knowledge workers) =>

Conceptual Age (where we are now, with creators and empathizers)

He does a great job of explaining how Asia, Automation and Abundance change the nature of the economy in North America.

I highly recommend this book to anyone interested in business, economic development or social development.

I consider it required reading for those who would spearhead a Centre for the Arts.

What do business leaders say?

"We need more than just the technical skills. The thing we often see missing (in new hires) is the ability to use the right side of their brain, the creative part."
-- Hewlett-Packard recruiting executive Wayne Johnson

Here's the USA Today story:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-01-10-panel-usat_x.htm

Forestry brings billions of dollars into this community annually, just like movie productions do in Vancouver. The Citizen, radio stations, art supply stores, etc, are all private businesses which contribute financially to this city. Will a new PAC contribute more (financially or socially) to PG than TNW or the Playhouse or the art gallery do now?
You want to to bolster this town's creative economy? As my Dad says, "Fill yer boots!" Go right ahead. Open a web design / hosting company. I'll probably give you some business as the place I'm using now sucks. How about marketing or advertising? Software development?
You're right owl, we need to diversify. In five or fewer years, when the beetle kill is out of the bush and our annual allowable cut is slashed, this town is going to crash. Jobs will be cut, businesses will close, and people will move. How will a PAC help then? How will a PAC stay open? Shouldn't our money and energy be focused on preparing for, or minimizing this crash? If not maybe we will end up like Barkerville... a ghost town with a cool theatre.

"Forestry brings billions of dollars into this community annually"

A bit of an overstatement. The payroll in the Regional Ditrict for all employed individuals is about $1.3 billion. Of that, about 17% are employed in the forest industry. On average, that would make about $220 million. But I will take a guesstimate and say $250million to $275million due to the higher average wage rate in the industry. That is also offset by the seasonality of some of the work, so I may actually be high on that estimate.

BTW, if one looks at the West Vancouver RD the 17% of the workforce represents Scientific, technical and professional category used by BC Stats in tracking income and community profiles of where the money is earned.

The average income of West Van is $32,000 .. in RDFFG it is $24,000

Those are 2003 figures.

So, extraction industry is not the best industry to be in. On average, the knowledge industry is superior.

In ordert to attract knowledge workers and industries a different community profile of lifestyle services is required. The arts and culture component of the West Van RD is three times that of the RDFFG. There is a reason for that. The demand is there. The demand is there due to the different nature of the workforce.

While increasing the arts and culture component of workers in PG will not be a large generator of wealth, such as may be found in world cities such as Paris, London, New York, etc., and the film industry in LA, the indigenous industry as well as the importing of the arts from other parts of the country and the world, does a lot to assist in providing a lifestyle for a different kind of industry and worker.

Remember, this is about diversifying the economy of PG. In order to do that, one has to create the infrastructure. The University is a good start. A technology/research park ready for industry to come here rather than waiting for the infrastructure to be built over a two year period would be another good investment.

Diversifying to me means reducing the dependency on extractive industries and increasing the dependence on knowledge industry. Replacing cutting down trees and sawing them up for lumber, with cutting down trees and making them into pellets is not what I call diversification. It is still primary and secondary industry rather than tertiary industry.

The forest (or 'extraction') industry isn't going anywhere. It is -- for the most part -- a logically managed, sustainable industry that is feeding a market that isn't going to disappear any time soon. So as long as Prince George is still surrounded by thousands of square kilometres of forest, there will always be a forest industry. That being said, we DO need to diversify the local economy. Will building a PAC do this? No. Will a new PAC replace or complement existing arts facilities? If it's simply going to replace existing facilities, then where is the economic growth? If it's meant to complement TNW, the playhouse, symphony, etc... is the demand there for additional venues? Given that the art gallery has had to rely on municipal funds to maintain operation, could a PAC sustain itself? Does it make sense to provide a 'lifestyle' for a 'different kind of industry and worker' before that industry is in place? Before the workers are even in town? Doesn't make any sense to me, but then I'm not part of this 'superior' knowledge industry.

Your comparison to West Van is innapropriate. West Van has itself has a smaller population than PG, but, as you point out, incomes are higher, and it's arts industry also draws clients/customers from a larger population base (almost 2 million people in the GVRD). There is also a siginificant 'lifestyle' difference between PG and West Van. No manufacturing industry in West Van. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Vancouver%2C_British_Columbia), "West Vancouver is mainly a residential district as many residents are retired, work at home, or take the short commute to downtown Vancouver. A 25-block strip of Marine Drive serves as a commercial district, featuring shops, small offices, garages and gas stations, restaurants, banks, and other common amenities." Doesn't sound like PG to me. "West Vancouver is often referred to as the most expensive municipality in Canada, though the Montreal suburb of Westmount is often considered a contender for the same title. 40% of the male population and 18% of the female population of West Vancouver earned over $60,000 in 2000. Average total incomes were $86,253 for males and $37,133 for females, almost double the provincial average. Over 50% of the population has a total family income of at least $90,000 [5]." Compare this to PG, with an average income of just over $36,000 (http://www.initiativespg.com/ipg/media/downloads/average_income.pdf). Apples and oranges.