Good grief! We need roads and bridges, and instead we get a place for twinkle toes.

YDPC,

think of it as good exercise, while you walk to the plays.

Or you could just go the the parkhill centre, or PG playhouse shows instead.
I wonder how they will sell enough interest ( tickets ) to keep all 3 alive, especially with our declining population.

Maybe kinsley instead of traveling the world all the time. Could talk other mayors into visiting PG, and taking in a twinkletoes performance.

Twinkletoes? Is that the best you have?

This is Opinion250 not IQ 25.

Well do we really need a $900,000 walkway under highway 16 so the imagined 70 people an hour can cross to the ball parks ? Where on earth did they come up with that 70 people an hour ! 70 * 24 = 1680 people a day. Assuming they mean an average of 70 people an hour you should easily be able to head down there any time of the day and sit and see at least one person a minute trying to cross that area. So I did one better. I spent an hour at the new Hyundai dealership looking at cars and didn't see a single person walking or trying to cross the highway and this was mid-day during the week.

Another example is the million or so they want to spent to put a bunch of scrubs downtown by that mural that all the druggies use to hide behind. Clean the area up a bit, plant grass, clean up the sight lines, add some benches and call it a day. Don't do the huge greenery they have planned. Save the money for the roads.

It seems that many who come here participate in "hockey enforcer" events .. with less than 2,000 taking up a 6,000 seat arena.

Here is the April program for Nanaimo's Ports Theatre, 800 seats, built in 1998 for $13+ million ... going strong

• Fri Apr 6( 1 show) + Sat Apr 7 (2 shows) - Cats Anniversary tour - $74/seat (2,400)
• Wed Apr. 11 - Tom and Dick, the Smothers Brothers - $51/seat (800)
• Friday Apr 13 - CIARAN & FIONA MacGILLIVRAY & BAND (Celtic) $26.50 per seat (800)
• Sat April 14 - Upper Island Dance Gala 2007 - $15/seat (800)
• Sunday April 15 - Nanaimo Concert Band - $10/seat(800)
• Saturday April 21 – Vancouver Island Symphony – Tina Guo, cellist - $15 to $40/seat (800)
• Apr 25 to 29 – Being Frank (story of Frank Ney) 6 performances - $30/seat (4,800)

That is a total of 11,200 performance-seats.

Something for everyone. It is the size of theatre we need. Not that 1,100 seat thing in the lower mainland.

Those in Nanaimo have an average income about 20% lower than the average income in PG. So why should a theatre such as that work in Nanaimo and not in PG?

Until we get some improved facilites, better roads, and cleaner air, there is little hope of getting people who will join the 20th century extraction dominated economy with the 21st century service dominated economy to come here and stay here for any length of time. This city will shrink even further in size. Which might be a good thing for many.

http://www.porttheatre.com/calendar/all.html

Maybe the book on Harold Moffat can be turned into a play .. and we can run 20 performances at the Playhouse for $30 per seat ...

;-)

So YDPC says we need bridges ... instead we get tunnels .....

The least they can do is make the thing wide enough so that we can put in some community plots for growing mushrooms......

;-)

Since there is a digression to stupid ways of spending money ......pverpasses rather than tunnels are preferred from a safety point of view.

• Should be well lit. Consider using a median in the road and placing a large skylight in the center of the tunnel for natural light. Use overhead luminaries above this skylight to further light the tunnel at night.
• Have vandal-resistant walls. Pedestrians do not like graffiti and other acts of vandalism. The best tunnels use artwork, glazing, or other methods to reduce vandalism.
• Split the grade. Individuals about to enter a tunnel want to see the horizon at the far side. This effect is achieved by raising the roadway at least halfway, and thus depressing the tunnel only half of the elevation change.
• Require robust activity. Commercial kiosks, entertainment complexes, and other activity centers are even more essential for successful tunnels, especially for major tunnels where undesirable elements might otherwise congregate.
• Have good drainage - make drainage grates pedestrian-friendly.
• Have video monitors. These need to be monitored, otherwise pedestrians will get a false sense of security.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/handbooks_and_research/ped16_e.pdf

Florida State Dep. Of Transport safety guidelines – look about half way down the linked portion of their guidelines for pedestrian planning & design guidelines.

to bring this back to the topic ... tnnels do provide for a grest opportunity for buskers .... the reverberation time can be almost cathredal-like ... so hope that the engineers have that in mind when they design it ... use lots of hard, washable surfaces to discourage graffiti and encourage reverberation.

;-)

Actually you know Owl I would go to that play !

Are there any new business families in PG like the Moffats ? I am not as in touch with the business types as I would like to be but I do like to spend my dollars in stores that directly support a family here in PG.

I am heading down to homehardware to purchase some shelving that maybe I can get for 2$ cheaper at Walmart but the nice friendly and no doubt helpful person who will help me get it into my vehicle more than makes up for that.

"Another example is the million or so they want to spent to put a bunch of scrubs downtown by that mural that all the druggies use to hide behind."

Bringing that back around full circle to the performing arts, it reminds me of the German soldier character of Arte Johnson who used to peer out behind the bush with his cigarette saying: “verrry interestink” .. great spot for lurkers … remove a solid barrier and provide a plant barrier instead …. Good planning … much more ecological

;-)

I am with you on that lunarguy ... although I understand Carrie Jane Gray was a more intersting character, though more short-lived in the public eye.

Ben Ginter comes to mind as likely the most versatile character to write a stage play about ..... if it has not already been done, maybe it will give someone an idea....

"Are there any NEW business families in PG like the Moffats?"

I guess as some on here say every now and then "time will tell".

Not something one can predict very well I think.

I guess the "Walls" are out ....

;-)

Barton ..... local business now province wide

others please kick in ... this could be an interesting and controversial topic

What does this have to do with the performing arts?

I would not be surprised if the Barton kids used to take dance lessons and the insurance company supports the arts through advertising .....

;-)

BTW ... I am very pleased that the headline says PERFORMING arts centre !!!!

Hopefully the committee stays on track rather than diverting to an arts centre with displays of birds painting canvasses with their feet dipped in different coloured paint ....

Owl's stuff is so good, he needs his own blog!

Posted by: bohemian on April 7 2007 7:37 AM
Twinkletoes? Is that the best you have?

This is Opinion250 not IQ 25.

I would call that a personal attack against another member...hopefully getting you banned for a while till you grow up, and learn to play nice with others.

Back to my point...we have the PG Playhouse, TNW in parkhill, Vanier hall, Multiplex, civic centre, coliseum, bandshell for outdoor stuff, canfor room in UNBC and many many more places a play or dance can be performed.
Till the city fixes the roads, and cleans up some debt, I personally hope they hold off on this huge cost.

Mcfly,

I would consider calling highly skilled amateurs and professionals, as well as thousands of citizens who appreciate their art, "twinkletoes" an attack on a large segment of the population.

I am fully supportive of intelligent debate here, not name calling.

I was simply encouraging the comments to move up a few points on the IQ scale because that's what I'd like to see here.

Both you and YamaDooPolCat were out of line and I simply called you on it.

Can we both agree that the discussion should be a little more mature than calling people names like twinkeltoes?

Your point above has merrit; the other stuff is weak and ignorant.

"...and many many more places a play or dance can be performed"

You clearly have no idea what the technical requirements are for professional level presentations of performing arts product, whether locally produced or touring. Hence the huge cost of doing it right.

And I agree we need a lot of other things too, so the business case for this thing better be good.

It's easy to attack the big, expensive projects, but I think we let too much small stuff (tunnels, score clocks, China trips) eat away at the budget, and it ends up being millions a year,

When it comes right down to it, we really do not need any of those places listed that we already have, which is a typical list for most cities which have a technically competent PAC.

All we need are nice roads, proper sidewalks with cover, that way we can simply become the "Busker Capital of Interior BC" and people will flock here - during the summers anyway.

We get a few more hot dog wagons, add some ice cream and chip trucks, and away we go.

I like it already. Think I am going to stay in PG for a while longer.

And why a bandshell? Judy can start up her theatre in the Agora at the University again, maybe get a nice Frei Otto tensile structure to cover the stage and part of the audience, and people will flock here for the ingenuity of the little gritty mill town that could.

Chemainus, move over.

;-)

Tunnel art to boot .... we could even link the monitor cameras in the tunnel with the score clock to see how the latest graffiti artists are doing ......

Too much overbuilding, and spending going on in this town, however hopefully that will stop when his Honor the Mayor is gone. Anyone know why Initiatives Prince George is pushing for a PAC. Beware of geeks bearing gifts.

Visited the Great Prince George Art Centre again last week, and once again no one was there except staff. Does anyone actually go to this Art Centre????

Popped into the swimming pool next door and low and behold I counted 16/18 people in the pool. We are well on our way to another huge deficit on this building also.

Civic Centre was being fully utilized by the Native Youth Conference which was good to see, as this building is under utilized.
'
I still think that the City wants to get going on a performing arts centre so that they can sell the Playhouse Theatre to developers, and the PAC will be a SOP for the loss of the Playhouse. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. They never do anything without a ulterior motive.

Example: Buy the property at 4th and Victoria, relocate the Bingo at the New Gaming Centre across from Days Inn. Relocate United Way. Build new police station on property at 4th and Victoria. (Cost for this property was $2.7 Million) Who did the City purchase it from??? Cost for new Police Station $21.5 Million not counting the cost of property or interest on the money that will have to be borrowed.

What will they do with the Old Police Station. (Only in Prince George would a building that it 37 years old be considered old) Anywhere else it would still be considered as a new building. Will they use this property for the PAC, who knows? If they do, it puts it right in the mix with the other losing propositions in that area.

By the time you get the Police Station, the PAC, the Cameron St., Bridge, and the so called Co-Generation plant, plus misc, borrowing and spending you are looking at close to $70 Million dollars in new expenditures, and you still will have the worst roads in BC. \\

When it comes to spending this City is out of control.

If Carrie Jane Grey were the Mayor this unabated BS would come to an immediate halt. I think that the Mayor and Council, and some of the Citizens of Prince George have completely lost sight of the fact that the money that they are spending belongs to the taxpayers. This is what happened to the Federal Liberals when they get into this **Culture of 'Entitlement**.

We need to get back to **needs** and get rid of all these **wants**.

"Anyone know why Initiatives Prince George is pushing for a PAC."

Yup ... they are interested in economic development.

For that you need a good labour pool that hangs around for the long haul. And for today's growing, as opposed to shrinking, economy you need a labour pool interested in quality of life in the 21st century. That includes access to those same things other communities provide. Otherwise those other communities will be the benefactors of that labour pool.

Simple decision making process, especially in the employee driven market we are starting to enter into as the population ages.

Took IPG a while, but maybe they are finally catching on.

;-)

"Visited the Great Prince George Art Centre again last week."

I did not realize we had one. Doyou mean Studio 2880? Or perhaps the Two Rivers (Art) Gallery?

Did you go upstairs to see all those taking courses?

"I still think that the City wants to get going on a performing arts centre so that they can sell the Playhouse Theatre to developers, and the PAC will be a SOP for the loss of the Playhouse. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. They never do anything without a ulterior motive."

You might be right. I am sure that there are many in the City who would love to get that off their hands, especially at a profit. Unless I am missing something, I would agree with doing that.

"If Carrie Jane Grey were the Mayor"

What about poor old Harold. You mean she was stingier than he was?

"We need to get back to **needs** and get rid of all these **wants**"

A store owner "needs" to make a profit. To make a profit, a store owner “needs” the right customers for the product she is providing.

Customers “need” goods. Customers typically have a choice of where to buy goods.

In order to fulfill their “needs”, they will often depend more on their "wants"

• a pleasant atmosphere
• goods displayed in an attractive fashion
• goods at a reasonable price
• good service

If they cannot get all of them, they will sacrifice some to get others. Interestingly not everyone will sacrifice everything else merely for price. As was posted elsewhere, the Northern, as an example, still gets customers even though their price may not be the lowest. From my point of view they score high on atmosphere and service. Poorest on display in an attractive fashion. I still shop there.

So, who is the “we” you speak about? I am speaking about the citizens who are paying taxes and who, the same as the store owner, has to balance what is often a complex mix of parameters “wants” as well as “needs” in order to maximize the “need” for staying alive in the business world.

Our business world is the world of cities. We compete the same as stores compete, or manufacturers compete. Once we understand that, we can move on to become successful at that.

Marketing 101 ... lesson 9

;-)

BTW ... getting roads fixed, cleaning up the boulevards, getting an industrial site out of the airshed, providing safe downtowns, providing housing options at a competitive price, etc. etc. are all part of that comnplex mix.

You bet she was. And she wasnt afraid to arrest a few RCMP Officers for Speeding, or Running Stop Signs. (Citizens Arrests) She was a no nonsense kind of Gal.

The last time I was upstairs in the Two Rivers Art Gallery there was a couple of young kids crawling around on the floor, and their father was sleeping (passed out?) in the play room. Staff were conspicuos by their absence.

I guess IPG can catch on when it come to spending taxpayers money, however they never seemed to catch on for Private Money.

When it comes time to borrow the money for the PAC and if it has been throughly supported by IPG, and if the borrowing goes to a referendum, do you think that the City could be accused of having a conflict of interest because of the fact that IPG is an extension of City Hall, and the City is supposed to be at arms length when it comes to referendums.

As usual Owl you have no problem in spending other peoples tax dollars. The minority of people in this town get the most out of the available tax dollars, these people are usually referred to as the **vested interest groups**. These people have no problem in building huge expensive, under utilized buildings, and Art Centres, and Civic Centres, and Hocky Arenas, and Sport Complexes, etc; All with taxpayers money, all under utilized, and all subsidized with tax dollars on a yearly basis.

Recreation alone is subsidized to the tune of $6Million per year. The monolithic Sport Plex on the hill will start off the first year with a $300,000.00 subsidy from the City and likewise from the overly expensive and under utilized University.

When other taxpayers who do not utilize all the above mentioned amenities, but who would like to have some decent roads, less debt, a more cost concious City Hall, who would be more responsible for spending tax payers money, we are looked at as being **Hicks**.

Get this Owl, My tax dollar is just as valuable as yours, and I have the same right to have it spent on common sense projects in this City as you do in spending it on **high flying PAC's** that will never in a million years do anything except pander to the **presumed elitests** in this City who want to be more than they are.

This City is **Dirty** the downtown looks like bombed out Beruit, with empty buildings, boarded up windows, etc; The only thing missing is **tumbleweeds** blowing down 3rd Avenue.

Our Great City Fathers, IPG, and all the rest of the Kings men cannot solve this problem, nor can they even build and staff toilet facilities for people in that area, but for some reason they can build Million Dollar PACS, Hockey Rinks, Swimming Pools, Libraries, Art Centres, Multi Million Dollar Police Stations, Etc; Etc; Etc;

This City and those who support this kind of obscene spending should be ashamed of themselves. This is nothing more than self interest and greed at its best.

I quoted this from bohemian

"You clearly have no idea what the technical requirements are for professional level presentations of performing arts product, whether locally produced or touring. Hence the huge cost of doing it right."

Strange that TWN uses a fairly cost effect spot in the parkhill centre and does an incredibly professional job then.
Are they maybe just smarter?

And since owl says we do not need any of the places I listed if we have a PAC place...lets then just convert the coliseum or civic centre, or multiplex, or the PG playhouse ( chose one ) into the PAC and save a lot of damn money as we already own all of them.
And the rest then we can just bulldoze since they are all obsolete once the new PAC is built...we will save a fortune every year in operating, and staffing costs.
Glad the PAC building is all the city needs owl !

And on the subject of the 2 rivers gallery....it truly is a disgusting waste of money.
I would like to see honest atats on visitors per day....I watched the doors as my pals kids skated on the ice one sunny thursday not long ago.
And in 90 minutes i saw exactly 3 people go in the front doors...and 2 of them were staff returning.
OMG what a joke that place is.

"When it comes time to borrow the money for the PAC and if it has been throughly supported by IPG, and if the borrowing goes to a referendum, do you think that the City could be accused of having a conflict of interest because of the fact that IPG is an extension of City Hall, and the City is supposed to be at arms length when it comes to referendums."

??????

Is the City in a conflict of interest if Council agrees to a recommendation by City Planning???

I really do not understand the conflict. Of course it is an arm of the city. So is any consultant who the city hires to do any work for them.

How do you suggest they can get independently generated options. Get the Kamloops development group to come in here?

Whoever pays the piper typically calls the tune.

Does the City Council always listen to its adminsitration? Of course not. To its consultants? Of course not. To IPG .... who knows? I never see too much of their work.

I would prefer if the Community Arts Council could do this. But they dropped the ball many times in the past, so they would be no better. If you do not believe me, check old newspapers from around the time when there was $4 million sitting there for the asking.

Mcfly,

Showing your lack of knowledge again.

Theatre North West only has to cater to its own neeeds (small cast, no dance or large orchestra or choirs) and yes they do a great job with that. But no one else uses it, or could use it other than for similar sized and types of productions. It's called "black box" theatre. Many larger performing arts complexes have black box theatres as part of their facilities mix, including a large proscenium stage with plenty of wing space, orchestra pit, fly tower, dressing rooms, green room, etc.

Look at Kelowna's Community Theatre web site for technical specifications that make sense.

By the way, most everyone who attends TNW agrees that the plastic lawn chairs used as seats, while cheap, really suck.

"Get this Owl, My tax dollar is just as valuable as yours, and I have the same right to have it spent on common sense projects in this City as you do in spending it."

Did I ever say otherwise? Your point is?

We each have one vote and an equal right to make our opinion known and defend it as best we can ... strange system, eh what?

Of course, if you wish to advocate for a vote per dollar each of us spends in taxes in the community, both fee based, property based, and even the portion that is income based that comes back to the city income as a transfer payment from a senior government, then lets discuss the merits of that.

Until then, we have a vote based on people, not on how much each one provides to the City coffers.

Interestingly, if I was a key customer to a supplier of goods, they would listen to my needs more than the needs of those who spend very little there, if anything. One of the peculiarities of a democracy. Those who have no money have a vote …. Those who have money can buy votes … :-)

So, we live in democracy, not a marketocracy ....

;-)

Of course, there used to be a time when only property owners could vote ....

ah .. for the good olde days...

;-)

"And in 90 minutes i saw exactly 3 people go in the front doors...and 2 of them were staff returning."

That soudns like more people than will be using the new tunnel ... I told you they should be promoting graffiti as art in it ...
;-)

"This City is **Dirty** the downtown looks like bombed out Beruit"

Now you are showing your colours... obviously never been to a bombed out city before .... I grew up in one and I tell you, the downtown has a long way to go before it looks like that.

Actually bohemian, you yourself wrote that to do pro shows required all this expensive special crap...and now you want to back pedal.
I showed a very good example in TNW of a pro group not needing all the fancy crap.
If you read what you wrote in the first place, you will see that.
Maybe you meant it differently....but that is not what you wrote.
So there.

Oh and a final thought.
Just because not every post is a Novelette, and/or contains sarcasm, does not mean the author is stupid.
Maybe the person in the mirror is not good at recognizing sarcasm... So does that maybe make them the ......oh never mind.........

sarcasm and the internet do not mix well ....

then again, I should talk ... or write ...

;-)

IPG is the best thing that ever happened to PG ... *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

bohemian...Both you and YamaDooPolCat were out of line and I simply called you on it.

I wasn't out of line, I was out in the mountains all day, drinkin' and chasin' women and burnin' gas! You know doin' the things that "twinkle toes" writes plays about because they have such sucky lives. Why go to a play when it is such a shallow representation of what "twinkle toes" thought happens for those of us that just go for it! Twinkle toes is for the prudes that want to live my life without breaking any bones.

"Recreation alone is subsidized to the tune of $6Million per year. The monolithic Sport Plex on the hill will start off the first year with a $300,000.00 subsidy from the City and likewise from the overly expensive and under utilized University."
Palopu= you complain about the condition of the roads and the fact that the city subsidizes recreation, arts, and other services. Maybe you are right, close down the civic centre, art gallery, museum, library, CN centre, coliseum, both swimming pools, numerous parks, ball diamonds, soccer fields. Even UNBC, sports centre, CNC and anything else that cannot turn a profit and needs to be subsidized. Wait a minute!! That would mean bridges, roads and streets should be closed. What about sewer and water?
If we had wooden sidewalks you would complain.

Mcfly,

"...Actually bohemian, you yourself wrote that to do pro shows required all this expensive special crap...and now you want to back pedal."

Not all professional-level productions have the same technical needs or space requirements. Black box theatre has much less than others, and TNW does a great job.

But we're not talking about such a specific use, but a multi-use facility that can properly handle touring shows and many other local productions beyond black box theatre.

Let me give you a sports analogy. The facility requirements to host a world-class squash tournament are much cheaper than those for hosting a world-class hockey tournament.

The performing arts centre we're talking about is like talking about the above hockey facility, that can also host indoor soccer, lacrosse, basketball, arena football, etc. You can't play those sports in a squach court.

And by the way, you can't play squash or baseball or swim very well in hocky rink, so it's not appropriate for every sport, so we need proper facilities for those sports IN ADDITION to the hockey rink.

It is the proper technical (including stage squre footage) and audience requirements (including number of seats to make it financially feasable for the producer) for ballet, opera, large musical theatre, orchestra and others I was talking about, not black box theatre.

And by the way, you'd be surprized how demanding the technical specs are for TNW, and the cost of meeting those demands.

Roads are needed to carry snowmobiles and ATV and dirt bikes to places they can be used to destroy the wilderness.....

;-)

*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

Technical specs for seating ... one $8 green lawn chair per person in the audience ....

8 air exchanges per hour ...... with 20% fresh air content ....

yes, those are demanding specs .... but hey, they are only for the money paying audience .... . ;-)

What is a "squre" ?

I guess i was pointed out earlier as only having an IQ of 25...and it must be true, since I have no idea WTF that is.

Maybe the very smart bohemian dude can edumacate me.

So the guy that started trashing us on here, and calling people stupid, does not even know the meaning to the word he used.
Strange that he seems to know less than even us "idiots" .......

I didn't call anyone stupid; I said the comments were stupid and offensive.

And I did not start trashing: look at who wrote the first two posts.

And pointing out a simple typo is REALLY weak. Most people would understand that "squre footage" was "square footage," even Google's algorithm does:

http://www.google.ca/search?q=squre+footage&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Nice to see that some people still like to be educated.

The human brain does not "read" everything that it looks at. As long as the first and last letter are in the correct order, the remaining letters can be scrambled in any order and the brain will still be able to interpret what is written.

Thus, words are read not only by themselves but in context of others. So, “squre” by itself could be many words, while it is very limited when put into context.

BTW, those who pick on legitimate typos in an informal setting such as an internet post and use it to debunk content, show their inability of being able to tackle a topic at the level it is being presented.

Besides eye cn reed itt cuz eye cnt spl ethr.

BTW ....

Posted by: Mcfly on April 7 2007 10:23 PM
"And since owl says we do not need any of the places I listed if we have a PAC place...lets then just convert the coliseum or civic centre, or multiplex, or the PG playhouse ( chose one ) into the PAC ......"

I think you meant "choose" not "chose" ...

*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

Remember the saying about "he who throws the first stone" ... ?

Owl. Saying downtown was like bombed out Beruit may have been a bit of an exaggeration, however it is in terrible shape, and we managed to get it to that state of affairs without a bomb being dropped. Isnt that amazing.

I am beginning to beleive that these are the things that outline the Character of our City.

Tax and Spend Government. (Out of Control)

Highly expensive and under utilized
facilities, attended by a small number of the Citys citizens.

Absolutely despicable downtown, with boarded up windows, windows with steel bars, trash filled alleys and vacant lots, burnt out buildings, For Sale and For Lease signs all over. Individuals openly drinking and urinating in public. People sleeping in various parts of the downtown area.

Gambling Casinso's and gaming halls to releive the Citizenry of their money. Government which gives out welfare and then gets its money back by taxing Cigarettes, Alcohol, and Providing Gambling facilities. (Which means that volunteer orginations have to provide these people with food, and clothing).

A City that has a huge Municipal, Provincial, and Federal presence, that costs taxpayers Millions and Millions, and they have yet to solve a problem, let alone build a toilet.

What they all love the most is the sound of their own voices.

Take away the cushy high paid Government jobs and these people would be on the first Train, Plane, Car, Bike, or whatever to get the *H* out of town.

Years ago Prince Phillip referred to Prince George as a City of bearded beer drinking loggers. This discription upset the Mayor, who wrote a letter of protest.

What was it Shakespeare said. *He doth protest too much**

Another old saying is that you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so lets quit trying.

As Popeye would say, ** I yam what I yam, and thats what I yam**

Owl,

you got me there I admit....and yes, you are correct I pointed out a small error in bohemian's post....Normally i would have left it, but he basically said that yama and myself had an IQ of 25, and thought he was so damned brilliant.
If you post that you are superior, then cannot spell a simple word....well I bet you see my point.......

"Another old saying is that you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so lets quit trying."

I guess looking at Calgary, my least favourite big city in Canada, I see your point that on occasions one runs into the impossible.

I do, however, continue to try to improve things. I know for a fact that things do improve, even against seemingly impossible odds.

I guess when I stop trying to improve things, I would consider myself ready to retire from life.

What is wrong with peeing in public? You have some sort of phobia?

Holland
http://flickr.com/photos/rebeccasippel/279849649

England
http://www.flickr.com/photos/manc/95793705

Holland
http://www.flickr.com/photos/herbivore/325323197

some more .....

Germany http://www.flickr.com/photos/13161943@N00/126288741
http://www.flickr.com/photos/logosinberlin/80464065

Austria http://www.flickr.com/photos/reenoreluv/408514159

Australia http://www.flickr.com/photos/fnarf/127331596

Sweden http://www.flickr.com/photos/malingering/168751563

Italy http://www.flickr.com/photos/30982458@N00/121043137
http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctordorian/248232341

England http://www.flickr.com/photos/skuds/117369228

France [ur]http://www.flickr.com/photos/patrix/121440111[/url]

Portugal http://www.flickr.com/photos/henahaxn/143953752

Denmark http://www.flickr.com/photos/angermann/23736637

Prince George http://www.opinion250.com/images/4seasonspark..jpg

Is ours the most artistic one?

;-)