Please see http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1374353.php?compage=0&comcount=14&comlimit=10

For my opinion on this subject

Meisner should have done a little more research as per your link before blasting his comments off.

If four trained RCMP oficers can't take down one unarmed man without killing him we have some problems. It's time to reign in the people that are supposed to protect us.

An inquest will solve nothing other than to hopefully shut everyone up which is exactly what the politicians and cops want!
Remember it is not to find fault, so what is the point because somebody WAS at fault.
What will change?
The sooner we all forget about it,the better they will like it.
We already know what happened and so do they.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this but, no matter how I try,it still feels very wrong.
Nothing changes the fact that something is happening to our society and has been for quite a while.
We cannot give absolute free reign to the RCMP or anyone else.
We cannot give police forces the power to investigate themselves.
Somebody has to have the power to say hey,you screwed up and mean it,or the monster will keep growing as it is now.
You will notice that with all the controversy lately regarding the RCMP and law enforcement,nothing is changing, and it seems the idea behind that is to keep a low profile and hopefully we will all back off.
So who will protect US from THEM?
Sure as hell not the courts and we know that!
This needs to be a political bomb that will make our so called "leaders" understand that we will NOT tolerate this crap.
We elect them and they ignore us, and that is also getting worse.
That is NOT democracy,it is the begining of dictatorship,and the only thing that they will understand is what happens at the polls.
It is the only thing a politician who we are supposed to trust to make our laws understands.
We have no other defense.
If we protest hard enough,they will begin to understand that they just might not win an election at some point unless they actually show that they are making changes.
We CAN make a difference, but we also know they will fill us full of lies and spin too.
Another guy was tazered in Kelowna the other day for double parking and driving away.
Then he stopped, but he never even go out of his vehicle!
He was old and not all that well, and that chickenshit cop was not even tough enough to deal with the guy without a tazer and a punch to the head for godsakes!!
He lost it!
Was this guy dangerous while still inside his car??
The guy was wrong of course,no question,but did he deserve that?
No he did NOT!
Has anyone noticed that these situations are becoming more and more common,because they are.
Doesn't that bother anyone?
If it doesn't, it sure as hell will when you are the next one or someone in your family, and if something is not done,it is a very real possibilty!
And at the rate we are going it could happen sooner than later to any of us, and the biggest mistake we can make is to think it won't!

An inquest will reveal the facts, and Ben will call it a cover up and miscarriage of justice. Mark my words.

"If it doesn't, it sure as hell will when you are the next one or someone in your family, and if something is not done,it is a very real possibilty!
And at the rate we are going it could happen sooner than later to any of us, and the biggest mistake we can make is to think it won't!"
Yes Andy I agree with everything you say. I am linked through people to 3 different deaths by officers! How crazy is that? Me, sheltered little Heidi of P.G. who barely crossed the road without her mom knowing, who did her best in school to please the teachers, who brought home stray animals so they wouldn't starve, who befriended the handicapped boy named Peter H. because he was being picked on. All true hate to tell ya as sappy as it seems that's just who I am. I just find it so hard to believe how common these deaths are becomming. Really is shocking! I know welcome to the real world but does the real world need to be this starving for accountability?

I believe that when he turned and retreated from RCMP he grabbed a stapler off the counter. That was reported in early coverage of the story. If you were RCMP would you wait for him to bash you in the side of the head with a stapler? I contend he was armed and RCMP did not Taser him until he armed himself. None of us can see through that counter in the video. The RCMP clearly attempted to communicate with him. After the destruction he has committed would any reasonable person expect to be allowed to just walk away? After he armed himself with the stapler should RCMP wait to get bashed in the head? I can understand that the Pole need the attention of authorities to resolve his problem. He had certainly achieved that goal If he had just given up I am sure he would have been detained and a translator located. But he did not. He retreated and ARMED himself. The RCMP performed by the book. They immediately reacted to the ARMED person with the Taser rendering him unable to bash them in the head. They tasered him a second time when he still refused to release the weapon. They swarmed him and held him down to try and cuff him but he STILL had not released the weapon until RCMP used a baton to dislodge it from his hand and sweep it away. Again, look closely at the video and you will realize this is what is happening. Again, no reasonable person would expect to be allowed to just walk away. He armed himself and that changed everything. The problem with video of this nature is you cannot see everything that is happening. At the end of the video you see RCMP striking down with a baton. He is dislodging the stapler from the Pole's hand, he is DISARMING the Pole, but once again the video doesn't show that and many believe RCMP must be bashing him in the head or something. The RCMP cannot try the case in the media, that is against the rules. The RCMP have to abide by the rules, the liberal media follows no rules.

Taser didn't kill man: Manufacturer
Susan Lazaruk, The Province
Published: Friday, November 16, 2007
The Taser did not kill Robert Dziekanski, says a spokesman for the company that makes the weapon.

The fact that the Polish immigrant continued to resist police officers after he was shot proves it, he said.

"Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate," said Steve Tuttle, vice-president of communications for Taser International in an e-mailed response to requests for an interview.


A Mountie prepares a Taser for use.
Jason Payne, The Province

"This video indicates that the subject was continuing to fight well after the Taser application," he wrote.

"His continuing struggle is proof that the Taser device was not the cause of his death."

Tuttle said the incident follows the pattern of in-custody deaths.

"Historically, medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are attributable to other factors and not the electrical discharge of the Taser system," he wrote.

He said "specifically in Canada" deaths are reported in the media as "Taser deaths," but the device "has been cleared in every case to date."

Tuttle said experts regard Tasers as the safest use-of-force tool available to police, and they have reduced injuries to suspects by up to 70 per cent and saved thousands of lives.

Seventeen Canadians have died after being shocked with a Taser since their introduction in 2001.

They have been used by the RCMP 4,000 times and at least as many times by other police forces in Canada.

slazaruk@png.canwest.com


God bless the RCMP. They exhibited professional attitude and action. They quickly controled an out of control person acting like a madman. It is unfortunate that he died from Paranoid Rage (Excited Delerium) but his death is his own fault. Even after the destruction he performed, when the RCMP arrived, if he had simply given up he might still be alive (if he didn't just drop from a heart attack anyway). Instead he resisted and was quickly brought under control. Listen very early in the video to the comment "he threw a chair at the glass at us and could have killed us". If that had not been safety glass and people had been badly injured people would have been complaining "why didn't RCMP do something". Note the Yellow jacket airport security place himself in harms way to protect citizens until RCMP arrives. The Liberal weenies will take advantage of any situation to advance their cause and they believe every criminal shoulld have a chance at a fair fight with authorities. Hogwash!

theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071026.EXCITED26/TPStory/National

THE DZIEKANSKI CASE: TASER CONTROVERSY: PHYSICIANS WEIGH IN ON CAUSE OF DEATH
Could paranoid rage be the real killer?
Incoherent and violent, a person in a state of 'excited delirium' is likely to suffer cardiac arrest, doctors suggest
PATRICK BRETHOUR AND RHÉAL SÉGUIN
October 26, 2007
VANCOUVER, QUEBEC -- The man was seen wandering the airport terminal, shouting and acting out aggressively. Several police officers arrived at the scene to arrest him, but struggled to subdue him.
Shortly after being handcuffed, the man stopped breathing, and never recovered.
Robert Dziekanski suffered that short and sad series of events earlier this month at Vancouver International Airport, dying minutes after the RCMP stunned him with taser guns before handcuffing him.
Stéphane Michaud met a similar fate in Ottawa International Airport two years ago, dying minutes after being taken down by Ottawa police officers.
Two men at two airports. Two sudden and troubling deaths. And one big difference: Police did not use a taser on Mr. Michaud - emergency medical personnel sedated him just before he died.
These deaths, and two others in Quebec in recent weeks after police used tasers, have sparked renewed controversy over police use of the nominally non-lethal devices, which use a brief surge of electricity to disable and subdue a person. For some, the mounting toll - 18 deaths in custody involving tasers since the devices were introduced earlier this decade - is a simple equation. If someone dies shortly after being tasered, the device killed them.
But some physicians and coroners say a heart attack induced by electrical shock should be nearly instantaneous, not come minutes or hours later. "If it's more than two seconds, he didn't die from the taser," said David Evans, Ontario's regional supervising coroner for investigations.
Most people who are tasered don't have long-lasting ill effects, according to the limited body of statistics. And then there is the seeming paradox of people such as Mr. Michaud, whose death in custody resembles that of a taser victim, except that he wasn't shocked.
The common denominator, according to a controversial theory, may be something called "excited delirium," a bundle of symptoms that describes someone in the grip of a paranoid rage. Incoherent and violent, a person with excited delirium is also likely to be sweating profusely - and to like smashing glass. Often, cocaine or crystal meth is a trigger, although mental illness or alcohol withdrawal can also precipitate it.
All too often, such an episode ends with a lapse into a tranquil state, and cardiac arrest.
Mr. Dziekanski and Mr. Michaud fit that profile to a large degree, although there is no indication that either took illicit drugs or were mentally ill. A witness to Mr. Dziekanski's arrest has said he smelled of alcohol. For both men, autopsies did not reveal any anatomical cause of death.
Two recent deaths in Quebec in less than a month after the use of a stun gun have the Quebec government scrambling for answers. On Sept. 18, Quebec City police used a taser gun to subdue Claudio Castagnetta, an Italian immigrant who died two days later allegedly from self-inflicted wounds after banging his head while in custody. Mr. Castagnetta appeared disoriented and confused when he entered a convenience store barefoot. When police arrived, he refused to leave.
Witnesses said Mr. Castagnetta, 32, resisted attempts to handcuff him and was shot several times with a stun gun. His friends and family insisted that he never took drugs.
Mr. Castagnetta's father insisted that Claudio suffered no mental illness. However, Claudio's lawyer said her client described himself as bipolar.
The provincial police opened an investigation last week into the death of Quilem Registre in Montreal. Officers said they stopped him for driving erratically, and were forced to use the stun gun when Mr. Registre, who was apparently heavily intoxicated, became aggressive.
Earlier this week, a task force set up by the Quebec ministry of public security rejected calls for a moratorium on the use of tasers. One member of the task force warned it is risky to use the devices on the mentally ill. René Blais of the Quebec Poison Control Centre said such people fight after receiving an electric shock, driving up their body temperature and their need for oxygen. The physical reaction can be deadly, he warned, but tasers are not the direct cause.
Christine Hall, a researcher and an emergency-room physician in Victoria, says neither science nor statistics back up the contention that tasers are lethal. Even the older versions of the weapon deliver a relatively small jolt, about 1 per cent of that flowing from a defibrillator, far short of the current required to induce cardiac arrest.
No link has ever been established in Canada between the use of the devices and a death in custody, she notes. The 16 cases she has studied involved individuals who were agitated and destructive. Other studies have shown most taser uses don't cause even minor injury.
Proving that will require more than a patchwork of statistics. For the moment, there is no database on sudden in-custody deaths, and no national database for taser use, largely because many police forces do not record when they use the devices, as they do when officers use firearms. Ontario police officers fill out a use-of-force report when they use tasers, but Dr. Hall says she knows of only two forces in the province, London and Waterloo, that have compiled statistics.
Eight police forces in Quebec use the taser, yet no provincewide protocol exists on how it should be used and what type of medical attention is required afterward. Police forces in Montreal and Gatineau administer immediate medical aid, but other jurisdictions do not.
Dr. Hall is preparing to launch a study of sudden in-custody deaths in four cities, including Victoria and Calgary, to find patterns that would explain the causes of excited delirium.
Excited delirium
Common behaviours of people in this state include:
Unbelievable strength and endurance
Imperviousness to pain
Ability to resist several police officers
Hyperthermia, or elevated body temperature
Heavy sweating
Bizarre and violent behaviour
Aggression and hyperactivity
Extreme paranoia
Incoherent shouting
Source: British Columbia Police Complaints Commission
A SHOT TO THE BODY
50,000 volts at .oo4 amps elevates blood pressure and heart rate and can, some say, be a factor in cardiac arrest.
How Tasers work:
1. The shot
Tasers fire two electrodes at the ends of long conductive wires attached to the gun's electrical circuit.
2. The hit
The electrodes have small barbs so that they will grab onto an attacker's clothing. When the electrodes are attached, the electrical pulses will try to move from one to the other, affecting the attacker's electrical nervous system.
3. Inside the body
The current mimics/interferes with the body's own electrical signals.
Electrical signals tell the nerve cells to release a communication chemical to muscle cells all over the body.
4. Shutdown
The current will tell the attacker's muscles to do a great deal of work in a short amount of time, temporarily impairing the subject's ability to control his own body.

The critics will never be satisfied.
Amnesty International and other police critics call for "independent studies" of TASERs. The federal government, via the Department of Justice, awards research grants for exactly that: independent studies. The latest study hits the street, and the critics are quoted across the land: "Well, we're not sure how independent the study was."
Never mind the study results, in this case that the TASER caused no serious injury in 99.7% of nearly 1,000 uses in multiple jurisdictions, where local doctors studied every incident.
The critics live in a delusional world where force is never used, and there is no need for police officers. The media lives in a dollars-and-cents world, where the critics make headlines on the back of your professional efforts to keep society safe. Conflict sells newspapers and airtime.
"And that's the way it is," as Walter Cronkite used to say at the end of each broadcast.
Maybe so, but after nearly 32 years in law enforcement, I’m still not used to it. Silly me!
You, on the other hand, live in a world that presents its difficulties to you day in, day out, and on a moment’s notice, or no notice at all. And your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to keep that world as safe as you can, despite the cries of those who wouldn’t know a legitimate use of force if it hit them in the face.
Enough of my rant!
The best thing I can do for you this month is arm you with a list of recently completed studies that help answer questions about the safety of electronic weapons. You can be sure that the critics will say that there aren’t enough of these studies, or they aren’t independent, or whatever else they can dream up.
Here goes:
The TASER safety study referred to above was conducted at Wake Forest University by Dr. William Bozeman, an associate professor of emergency medicine at Wake Forest University School of Medicine. The study was funded by the National Institute of Justice. In 962 incidents, just three resulted in serious injury, two of those from falling. One was a case of rhabdomyolysis, or muscle tissue breakdown, which is sometimes seen in people experiencing excited delirium. This study was widely publicized in early October.
Another study compared TASER effects to other types of use of force. Entitled, “The impact of conducted energy devices and other types of force and resistance on officer and suspect injuries,” published in October by Emerald Group Publishing Limited’s “Policing: an International Journal of Police Strategies & Management,” this study was authored by Michael R. Smith, Robert J. Kaminski, Jeffrey Rojek, Geoffrey P. Alpert and Jason Mathis, of the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, University of South Carolina.

Its stated purpose was “. . . to examine the effect of police use of conducted energy devices (CEDs) on officer and suspect injuries while controlling for other types of force and resistance and other factors." The study’s practical implications were that, “. . . relative to other forms of force, the use of CEDs and pepper spray can reduce the risk of injury to both suspects and law enforcement officers. This information should prove useful to law enforcement agencies considering adopting CEDs and suggests that agencies should consider the use of these less lethal alternatives in place of hands-on tactics against actively resistant suspects."
Quite a few new medical studies have been released in the past few weeks. All of these studies affirmed the general safety of the TASER® electronic control device. Six (6) of these studies were presented at the Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), in Sorrento, Italy during September 15-18, 2007.
Several of these studies used human volunteers that underwent cardiovascular and physiologic evaluations on the effects of TASER activation in a human body and reached the following conclusions
(Abstract) (Poster) (09/17/07) Ultrasound Measurement of Cardiac Activity During Conducted Electrical Weapon Application in Exercising Adults. J. Ho; R. Reardon; D. M. Dawes; M. Johnson; J. Miner.
Conclusions: A 15-second CEW application on exercised volunteers did not demonstrate any evidence of induced tachyarrhythmia. It is unlikely that CEW exposure induces cardiac rate capture or tachyarrhythmia in humans.
(Abstract) (Poster) (09/18/07) Absence of Electrocardiographic Change Following Prolonged Application of a Conducted Electrical Weapon in Physically Exhausted Adults. J. Ho; D. Dawes; H. Calkins; M. Johnson.
Conclusions: Prolonged 15-second CEW application in a physically exhausted adult human sample did not cause a detectable change in their 12-lead ECGs. Theories of CEW induced dysrhythmias are not supported by our findings.
(Abstract) (Poster) (09/19/07) 15-Second Conducted Electrical Weapon Exposure Does Not Cause Core Temperature Elevation In Non-Environmentally Stressed Resting Adults. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner.
Conclusions: In summary, our results do not show that a 15-second conducted electrical weapon discharge significantly affects core body temperature in non-environmentally stressed resting adults. While additional studies are needed, our data suggests that theories about conducted electrical weapons contributing to hyperthermia are likely unfounded.
(Abstract) (Poster) (09/19/07) The Neuroendocrine Effects of the TASER X26 Conducted Electrical Weapon as Compared to Oleoresin Capsicum. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner.
Conclusions: The results suggest a significant greater level of activation of the stress cascade with O.C. compared to the CEW. Overlapping confidence intervals preclude a definitive statement about the other measurements, but do not suggest a greater activation of the stress cascade by the CEW than O.C.
(Abstract) (Poster) (09/19/07) 15-Second Conducted Electrical Weapon Application Does Not Impair Basic Respiratory Parameters, Venous Blood Gases, or Blood Chemistries. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner.
Conclusions: As with the previous study, this study suggests that exposure to a CEW does not significantly impair respiration. As in the previous study, pCO2 decreased and pO2 increased as a result of the exposure. There was no change in blood pH. While this study is small, it adds to the growing body of literature that is demonstrating that these weapons have a favorable risk-benefit ratio and are appropriate additions to the use of force continua of police agencies.
(Abstract) (Poster) (09/19/07) Breathing Parameters, Venous Gases, and Chemistries with Exposure to a New Wireless Projectile Conducted Electrical Weapon. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner; E. Lundin.
Conclusions: This study demonstrates that the new CEW has no important deleterious effects on respiratory parameters, blood chemistries, or venous blood gases. These results are consistent with previous results for the TASER X26 CEW.
(08/29/07) Physiological Effects of a Conducted Electrical Weapon on Human Subjects, Gary M. Vilke, MD, Christian M. Sloane, MD, Katie D. Bouton, BS, Fred W. Kolkhorst, PhD, Saul D. Levine, MD, Tom S. Neuman, MD, Edward M. Castillo, PhD, MPH, Theodore C. Chan, MD. Article in Press, Ann Emerg Med. 2007;xx:xxx.
Conclusion: A 5-second exposure of a TASER X26 to healthy law enforcement personnel does not result in clinically significant changes of physiologic stress.
The above studies can be reviewed here (create login, and open "search" tab and search by author’s last name or abstract title or number).
The abstracts below can be viewed here.
(09/19/07) Cardiac Current Density Distribution by Electrical Pulses from TASER Devices, Panescu D, Kroll MW, McDaniel W, Stratbucker RA., Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):6305-6307.
Conclusions: TASER ECDs deliver electrical pulses that can temporarily incapacitate subjects. The goal of this paper is to analyze the distribution of TASER currents in the heart and understand their chances of triggering cardiac arrhythmias. The models analyzed herein describe strength-duration thresholds for myocyte excitation and ventricular fibrillation induction. Finite element modelling is used to compute current density in the heart for worst-case TASER electrode placement. The model predicts a maximum TASER current density of 0.27 mA/cm2 in the heart. It is conclude that the numerically simulated TASER current density in the heart is about half the threshold for myocytes excitation and more than 500 times lower than the threshold required for inducing ventricular fibrillation. Showing a substantial cardiac safety margin, TASER devices do not generate currents in the heart that are high enough to excite myocytes or trigger VF.
(09/19/07) Finite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and Muscle. Panescu D, Efimov IR, Kroll MW, Sweeney JD. Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):1277-1279.
Conclusions: TASER ECDs deliver electrical pulses that can temporarily incapacitate subjects. The goal of this paper is to analyze the distribution of currents in muscle layers and understand the electro-muscular incapacitation safety and efficacy of TASER ECDs. The analyses describe skeletal muscle and motor nerve activation, cell electroporation and current and electric field distributions through skin, fat and muscle layers, under worst-case assumptions for TASER electrode penetration and separation. For the muscle layer, the analysis predicts worst-case current-density and field-strength values of 94 mA/cm2 and 47 V/cm. Both values are higher than thresholds required for neuromuscular activation but significantly lower than levels needed for permanent cellular electroporation or tissue damage. The results indicate that TASER ECDs are safe and effective in producing temporary subject incapacitation.
(08/28/07) Can the Direct Cardiac Effects of the Electric Pulses Generated by the TASER X26 Cause Immediate or Delayed Sudden Cardiac Arrest in Normal Adults? Raymond E. Ideker, MD, PhD, and Derek J. Dosdall, PhD. Am J Forensic Med Pathol 1 Sep 2007 28(3): p. 195.
Conclusion: It is highly unlikely that the TASER X26 can cause ventricular fibrillation either instantly or minutes to hours after its use through direct cardiac effects of the electric field generated by the TASER.
More medical studies and TASER use studies are in the works.

the field use data on Tasers is overwhelming proof in itself that Tasers are not lethal and that Amnesty International has been lying to the public and press for years about it now.

The Vancouver case is just one more in a long list of sensationalist press orgies that take selected information out of context and blow it way out of proportion before exculpatory information comes in - which they rarely if ever report- and then move on to the next sensational story. Meanwhile, Amnesty International chocks up one more 'death by Taser' on their odometer and never remove a case when subsequent data comes in to say that the cause of death is something other than Taser shock.

Hello Dave when he got tasered the first time he is not resisting, he is in panic mode. When you see those "brave reporters" getting zapped they are only getting hit with a very short jolt. If they got the normal long jolt I am sure they would be flopping around and screaming on the ground also. That is not resisting, your body is now out of control. Cops use that flopping around as an excuse to hit the victim again. Hey face it we are dropping into a police state.

The cops will now surround themselves with the cozy blanket of airport security it justify their hideous actions in this case.

The fact is due to poor training and discipline they moved in without accessing the situation. What scares me because of their poor training what will happen when the cops someday face someone who knows what they are doing. The death of the four cops in Alberta is an example of this.

You will notice that all of the sensational death by Taser" headlines have vanished

Taser International says there is no proof device killed man
Vancouver Sun
Published: Saturday, November 17, 2007
Taser International Inc. claims Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski was in a state of "excited delirium" at Vancouver International Airport and there's no proof he died from being shocked twice by a police Taser.
The Arizona-based company sent out a letter Friday defending its product as a safe alternative to the use of force and criticizing the media for sensational coverage and "unsubstantiated and misleading headlines" related to Dziekanski's death.
In a statement, the company said it has sent out 60 legal demand letters asking for a correction to the headlines and "will take other action as necessary."
"These unsubstantiated, false headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the public at greater risk," said Tom Smith, founder and chairman of the Taser International Inc. board.
The company claims Dziekanski's death appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police.
In these situations, the company said, medical science and forensic analysis has shown these deaths are attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical discharge of the Taser.

Dave: "...Taser International says there is no proof device killed man..."

Taser International is in the business of selling tasers, for heaven's sake! Dave, you expected them to admit that 50,000 volts can be lethal and has killed hundreds of people?

Reminds me of the tobacco industry's past statements that smoking is wonderful, non-addictive and has never harmed a single human being in spite of internal memoranda that admitted that it was indeed a killer.

Man's lack of co-operation necessitated force
Les MacPherson, The StarPhoenix
Published: Saturday, November 17, 2007
We have all by now seen the disturbing video of the hapless Polish immigrant screaming, writhing and dying after RCMP officers used a Taser on him at the Vancouver airport. Now almost everyone in the country is piling on police for using excessive force. Excuse me for not joining in.
What people seem not to realize is that there is no way to subdue a violent, irrational and potentially dangerous suspect that isn't disturbing. What, exactly, would these armchair critics have had the police do?
Talk to the guy?
They tried. Police when they approached the man were as non-threatening as they could be. It didn't work. The suspect, after storming around the airport, smashing up furniture and alarming everyone around him, was now ignoring police instructions. Instead of co-operating, as any reasonable person would have and should have done, he threw up his hands, turned around and walked away. Were police supposed to let him go? Were they to let him storm around some more until he felt like obeying them?
I hope not. For all anyone knew, the suspect was armed and potentially dangerous. Had he suddenly produced a weapon and killed an innocent bystander, say, the same people who today are condemning the officers for using excessive force would instead be condemning them for not using enough force.
"Why didn't they use their Tasers?" people would be asking.
All the man had to do was co-operate and no one would have been hurt. Instead, he resisted by walking away. If violent and potentially dangerous suspects can avoid arrest simply by walking away, we might as well not even have police.
Of course, Robert Dziekanski did not deserve to die. But someone who for no good reason is violent and destructive and who then ignores the police should expect to be roughly handled. That the rough handling in this case ended in tragedy is not the fault of police. They were using a tool that we have given them, a tool intended to reduce the risk of injury to both themselves and suspects. No one could have foreseen that the suspect would not survive. Independent scientific studies in Canada, Britain and the U.S. have repeatedly found that Tasers are more likely to save lives and reduce injuries to both suspects and police. That's why journalists and police officers routinely submit to being zapped for demonstration purposes.
As an alternative to zapping Dziekanski, police could have tried to physically subdue him, but not without risk of serious injury to themselves and their suspect. For all they knew at the time, he could have been high on illegal drugs, some of which are known to give a resistant suspect the strength of several men. For all they knew at the time, he could have had AIDS or hepatitis and a pocket full of needles. The $60,000 a year we pay these people isn't nearly enough to expect them to get into a bloody brawl if they can possibly avoid it.
Pepper spray is another alternative, but that, too, has been implicated in dozens of deaths. As for police batons, they have been found to be more dangerous still, more so, even, than Tasers. Of course, none of these are necessary for suspects who don't resist arrest.
Why Dziekanski behaved as he did, we may never know. We've all found ourselves waiting at one time or another for someone who doesn't show up, as he apparently was. Most of us handle it without throwing around the furniture.
There was in this case the additional complication of a language barrier, but rational people overcome language barriers all the time, especially so in international airports. That 60 million others, many of them foreign, have passed through the Vancouver airport without incident would suggest that the problem was with Dziekanski. By the time police were called to the scene, he had long since cleared immigration and was free to go. He could have sought out an interpreter. He could have caught a cab, found a hotel room and sorted it all out the next day. Instead, he went more or less berserk and then resisted arrest.
Police are not allowed the luxury of sorting it out later. Their duty was to subdue and arrest him, one way or another, and promptly. For all they knew, he was a smuggler whose erratic behaviour was caused by a broken condom of cocaine in his stomach. Had that been the case, their prompt action might just as easily have saved his life.
When police are killed in the line of duty, we fret mightily over officer safety, for without officer safety, there can be no public safety. Then, when police use the tools we give them to make their dangerous job as safe as it can be, we condemn them.
So which is it?
lmacpherson@sp.canwest.com
canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/third_page/story.html?id=cb385943-2aaa-41cc-bdd4-af58082eb839

Hello seamutt
I believe that when he turned and retreated from RCMP he grabbed a stapler off the counter. That was reported in early coverage of the story. If you were RCMP would you wait for him to bash you in the side of the head with a stapler? I contend he was armed and RCMP did not Taser him until he armed himself. None of us can see through that counter in the video. The RCMP clearly attempted to communicate with him. After the destruction he has committed would any reasonable person expect to be allowed to just walk away? After he armed himself with the stapler should RCMP wait to get bashed in the head? I can understand that the Pole need the attention of authorities to resolve his problem. He had certainly achieved that goal If he had just given up I am sure he would have been detained and a translator located. But he did not. He retreated and ARMED himself. The RCMP performed by the book. They immediately reacted to the ARMED person with the Taser rendering him unable to bash them in the head. They tasered him a second time when he still refused to release the weapon. They swarmed him and held him down to try and cuff him but he STILL had not released the weapon until RCMP used a baton to dislodge it from his hand and sweep it away. Again, look closely at the video and you will realize this is what is happening. Again, no reasonable person would expect to be allowed to just walk away. He armed himself and that changed everything. The problem with video of this nature is you cannot see everything that is happening. At the end of the video you see RCMP striking down with a baton. He is dislodging the stapler from the Pole's hand, he is DISARMING the Pole, but once again the video doesn't show that and many believe RCMP must be bashing him in the head or something. The RCMP cannot try the case in the media, that is against the rules. The RCMP have to abide by the rules, the liberal media follows no rules.

The Taser was regulated under Firearms legislation until they replace the gunpowder charge with a different propulsion system.

"Dave" is likely a blue slug, who like his cultists deliver work product of 1 conviction per month and 1 incarcerated person per year. In the book "Reproducing Order," the late Richard Ericson, reported on his field study of policing and he found that cops routinely unfounded crime complaints when they "didn't want to do the work." Cops tase rather than conduct physical takedowns because they don't want to mess up their hair.

Under Justice Institute standards it takes 65 days of class training to make a cop; 100 days to make a coroner. And cops and coroners take some of the same crime scening training. It is likely that coroners preside over cases where cop friends give evidence.

See how a former Chief Judge of the Provincial Court (and ex Deputy Regional Crown Counsel) gave a light sentence to a cop who broke the jaw of a handcuffed man. Baird-Ellan later reduced the cop's sentence. After the charge was registered, Tait was able to retain full police powers including use of a service revolver. He didn't spend even 1 second in jail.
http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc/2005/2005bcpc40/2005bcpc40.html

The airport taser-gang have been spotted on duty; they still carry tasers.

diplomat
I believe nobody has ever died from being Tasered. The static shock from a door knob can be higher.

"Dr. Daniel Brennan, an emergency room physician at the Orlando Regional
Medical Center, stated, “It’s very hard to shock people's hearts. We use
defibrillators with big paddles and high energy because of that resistance of air.
So the TASER®, in contrast even though it is high voltage, it has very low
current, very low amperage, and a very short duration as well. It does use
repetitive cycles, 5-30 cycles per second. That's how we're actually able to
immobilize the person we're trying to immobilize with the TASER®, I suppose,
because it's not just one quick jolt where your body would give just a jerk, but it's several cycles, over several seconds, to immobilize the person. The energy used is about 1.6J, where as the exo-defibrillator we use in the EMS and the emergency fire unit is a minimum of 50-360J. So again, it's a very minimal
amount of energy.”

Twenty police officers volunteered to be TASER®ed while the team
from UCSD “evaluated cardiac changes utilizing monitoring during
deployment of the TASER®.” The researchers concluded “in this pilot
study we found no significant cardiac dysrythmias in healthy human
subjects immediately after receiving a TASER® shock. In addition,
there were no morphologic, rhythm, or interval changes other than a
small decrease in PR interval and an increase in heart rate.” The
team’s complete study was presented at the Society of Academic
Emergency Medicine’s Annual Meeting in New York City, May 2005.

Holy crap, I think Dave is suffering from excited delirium.

The fact of the matter is that nobody knew anything about excited delirium at the time they responded. They probably couldn't even spell it. They decided to taser him before they even arrived on the scene. They made no attempt to diffuse the situation.

Tell me whatever you want Dave, troll, lmorg, raparee, etc. Cops defending cops doesn't go very far these days, especially after inquest upon inquest where cops have clearly lied and even contradicted each other in testimony under oath.

The result of all this is that the general public doesn't buy it anymore and I told you it would happen.

There needs to be crystal clear accountability in the eyes of the people to restore their faith in the police.

I doubt that is coming anytime soon. This inquest will be another muddy swim through a river of vague facts and theories, in the end accomplishing nothing but trying to pacify the general public.

However you want to slice it, a job poorly done is a job poorly done. There is no way to make people believe otherwise.

dave:" diplomat I believe nobody has ever died from being Tasered. The static shock from a door knob can be higher."

O.K. let's arm RCMP officers with doorknobs and take the killer tasers away from them!

I don't care what you believe, Dave! Your beliefs are your personal business. It is factual knowledge that matters here, not *beliefs.*

thereasonableman: "Holy crap, I think Dave is suffering from excited delirium."

He is a taser salesman, I think.

Cheers!

Apparently we have anew apologist for the RCMP, fully informed and aware of all the microscopic details BEFORE any information has been released.

Despite his unerring accuracy and obvious objective evaluation, I think I will wait until we know somethign before deciding whether the RCMP were at fault or blameless. I wouldn't want to prejudge.

"The reasonableman" is correct,and I believe "Dave" is most likely a member of the RCMP, because he sure seems to be more than a bit defensive on their behalf!
But then,it isn't just about Tazers anyway now is it?
It is also about whether of not these 4 of the RCMP's finest acted without thinking?
How many seconds before they tazered him?
The guy from Poland did try talking to them, but they didn't take the time to listen or find out what he was saying now did they?
In future,any politician or party that thinks this entire incedent was handled properly and tries to justify it, will not be getting my vote ever again.
That may not mean much to them at this point,but I will also be actively encouraging others to do the same at every opportunity!
Now, we wait to hear what our ever so wise and fearless leaders have to say,because this one crosses the line!

"The fact that all the RCMP are lining up in support for the 4 involved, blind to the facts, well, makes me ponder what sort of 'gang mentality' the RCMP is operating under."

The fact that a lot of the people on this board are lining up against the 4 involved, blind to the facts, well, makes me ponder the existence of 'group paranoia'.

Maybe Dave has shares in the company-sell-sell-sell! Where did this excited delirium come from anyhow. I think anyone who gets tasered like how the police do it would get a little excited. About not letting go of that lethal stapler, when one is getting tasered repeatedly the old brain cells probably aren't firing in order. Hey Dave why don't you get tasered repeatedly, get jumped by four guys then after its over if your're still alive tell me what I was yelling at you!

I think the way tasers are used isn't quite what the company had in mind.

Poor training and discipline.

Hey Dave why did those cops just stand there like four idiots and not help the guy. That should warrent some sort of charges don't ya think.

Manufacturers test the tasers on pigs, as shown on TV. They reduce the voltage until the pigs revive after being stunned screaming and kicking into unconsciousness.

(Pigs don't feel any pain and they can't sue).

Then they reduce the voltage some more to make them theoretically safe for human beings.

Theoretically only, of course. Used as directed on humans as a last resource (against a threat that can not be dealt with by any other means) they are supposed to take the place of a well placed (often) lethal bullet fired in self defense.

This means that *other means* must be used first and the taser last - and not the other way around.

Seamutt:
Excited delerium is thought to be caused by use of cocaine and meth, as well as by mental disorders. The Ed wasn't caused by the tasering, but the tasering was the result of his behaviour which may have been caused by ED.
Being tasered, he probably COULDN'T let go of the taser, as the force locks the muscles, but if he hadn't picked up the stapler once the police approached him, maybe he wouldn't have been tasered.

"The RCMP have to abide by the rules"

They did not abide by the recommendations of the Police Complaint Commissioner from over 2 years ago that dealt with the use of Tasers.... ...

"the liberal media follows no rules."

Yes they do. They follow legal rules .... 1. they make sure they do not write anything that is libelous ......
2. they keep the puplic informed
3. as with others on here, they are free to provide opinions, and they do that as well.

So, where do you get these notions of yours from, Dave????

"I believe "Dave" is most likely a member of the RCMP"

Whether he is or not, it really does not matter, does it? People think he is, so it looks to non RCMP people as if he is simply being defensive. When anyone in any vocation which has some responsibility to clients or the general public and society begins to defend themselves in a virtual rage as Dave has so nicely displayed, it simply does not speak well for their cause.

The best way to defend oneself is to shut up and let a person more in control of their emotions defend them.

I sure would not want to be confronted by someone who can fly off the handle that quickly and has some sort of weapon.

As they say, guns don't kill. People do.

In this case, we can agree that tasers don't kill .... people do ....

In this case, the people who did the killing were RCMP. As some others said, the situation at YVR set the scene ... the RCMP finished the deed. Tasers just happend to be the tool of choice. The choice was not the tool's choice, it was the RCMP's choice. Bad choice in this case.

Funny how the information presented by Dave made everyone show their true colors. Seems no one is interested in the science of the situation, they just want the RCMP to stand up and take a beating like a man.

I found Dave's information interesting, however it appears it made the rest feel stupid and uninformed. Or maybe not, if they really are just screamers and all heart.

Kinda glad I ain't the RCMP officer who tazered the gentleman at the airport. And I certainly wonder what goes through his mind at his bedtime every night. Remorse? Again, sure glad it ain't me.

Thanks YamaDooPolCat
For me, this issue is about the vilification of both the RCMP and Taser technology. I feel like the forces of evil and evil forces have ganged up to make this tragedy far more sinister than it really is. I believe that the only one responsible for Robert Dziekanski death is Robert Dziekanski. Even with all that happened up to the time that RCMP arrived, if Robert Dziekanski had surrendered peacefully he would have received help. Post 911 you don’t go berserk in an airport and not expect consequences. Even with all of the destruction he had wrought, I believe the Canadians are a compassionate people and he would have been detained, fed and put in contact with his mother and probably sent on his way with a ticket. He probably would have had to pay for the computer he destroyed (over the course of many years). He chose to fight for no good reason. I am still not sure he would not have had a heart attack anyway, as I have said I believe he is an alcoholic that was going through Excited Delirium, also known as Paranoid Rage. The “Mounties” are highly respected in the USA and I have a hard time understanding the hard feelings expressed by so many Canuck’s. I can only surmise they have received traffic tickets they did not like paying. Tasers don’t kill anybody, the science exists to prove that and Taser is 59 to 0 in lawsuits brought by greedy, highly monetarily motivated lawyers. Like many tools a cop carries, a Taser can be used as a tool of abuse but so can many other things. I also believe abuse should be dealt with and punished.

As I have said ad nauseam, I believe RCMP acted professionally and courteously toward the Pole until he fled and armed himself. RCMP then neutralized the threat quickly and effectively. When one Taser jolt didn’t convince him to drop the weapon, they administered a 2nd jolt and then had to use a baton to remove the weapon from his hand. RCMP don’t go to work willing to let someone bash them in the head with a stapler, would you?

The people that just don’t like RCMP and/or Taser technology will never see the light. I just hate to see them have so much influence on an otherwise compassionate and intelligent people. Have you heard that Iran has now condemned Canada for civil rights violations in connection with this case? The people that just don’t like RCMP and/or Taser technology care not what evil empire they embolden to achieve their ends.

May I add:
The headlines are full of mostly stories about "Taser death" . Someone really has to dig to locate info to the contrary.
Here is a tidbit:
cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428327912&rem=79604&red=80132723aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm
Speaking on CKNW's Christy Clark show, Scott says Robert Dziekanski should have been offered help in his own language, "There's even an immigration phone, I understand. If you go down the hallway just past where the- what you call the kiosk- there's a little office. Right after the primary inspection line, there are translation services, also the documentation. We have it in 12 languages, including Polish."

Scott also wonders why the man's mother was not told her son was in the airport several hours before she returned to Kamloops around 10pm on October 13th.
____________________
There was help available to the Pole. Bet you didn't know that.

He had cleared customs many hours before but never left? Maybe a walk outside would have cleared his head.

People tried to help him but he just cussed them and told them to go away.

Blue Line Forum and other cop doormat sites are treating the cops as heros. Supposedly, Robert D held a stapler in his hand when he was tased. If that was true - and I couldn't see it even after using the "bold" function to better clarify dark scenes of the video - it didn't mean that he was using it as a weapon. In the last segment of the film, you see a cop battering the dead man with a baton. Cops are claiming that the man - unconscious if not dead at the time - was refusing to release the "weapon." At worst, Mr D's conduct was passive non-compliance. At issue was not the arrest - and security guards are trained by the Justice Institute to effect same - but the means used. And cops were heard discussing use of the taser option, before they contacted the electrocution victim. They were on a pretext hunt, and carried out their predetermined conduct.

Nothing can shake the fact that 4 cops - if not only 1 - could have taken him down in seconds, and then allowed justice to take its course. Unfortunately, judges are finding favourably where officers of the court are charged. See how a Provincial Court judge (and ex Deputy Regional Crown Counsel) acquitted a cop who was videotaped inflicting an injurious kick to the head of a suspect. Gulbransen found - or, better, said - that the suspect's writhing in pain after a police dog bite, was non-compliance. I couldn't make up this crap:
http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc/2005/2005bcpc188/2005bcpc188.html

May I add:
The headlines are full of mostly stories about "Taser death" . Someone really has to dig to locate info to the contrary.
Here is a tidbit:
cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428327912&rem=79604&red=80132723aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm
Speaking on CKNW's Christy Clark show, Scott says Robert Dziekanski should have been offered help in his own language, "There's even an immigration phone, I understand. If you go down the hallway just past where the- what you call the kiosk- there's a little office. Right after the primary inspection line, there are translation services, also the documentation. We have it in 12 languages, including Polish."

Scott also wonders why the man's mother was not told her son was in the airport several hours before she returned to Kamloops around 10pm on October 13th.
____________________
There was help available to the Pole. Bet you didn't know that.

He had cleared customs many hours before but never left? Maybe a walk outside would have cleared his head.

People tried to help him but he just cussed them and told them to go away.

Man. I have never seen so much drivel on a subject. Armchair, Sidewalk, Johnny come lately experts.

We are getting caught up in a sea of Drivelmania.

This issue is not complex. Did the police use excessive force in arresting this man, and as a result contribute to his death.

He was alive when the police arrived, and in less than 5 minutes he was dead. Those in authority should be able to figure this one out.

Daves argument that Tasers dont kill is invalid, and just so much hyperbole.

We could use his logic to state that the hangmans noose around a condemed mans neck is not what killed him, and say he was killed by the piece of rope that was tied to the cross beam that brought him to a sudden halt.
I strongly urge people to email a letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, with a copy to Stockwell Day, and the BC Attorney General and protest this dispicable act in the strongest terms possible.

YamaDooPolCat: "I found Dave's information interesting, however it appears it made the rest feel stupid and uninformed."

Not at all, speaking for myself. And I refrain from making statements like the one above, which totally misses the mark and is just a feebly attempt of an insult against all the *uninformed* participants in this discussion.

www in www.opinion250 stands for world wide web and I know that the rest of the world has eyes to read.

Their opinion of us ain't going to be pretty and the last thing we need now is an even more negative perception of Canada.

Facebook group for Robert Dziekanski:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=7187406348

The OPP have been "invited" for a look see, wow there is a bunch if there ever was one. Face it folks we are becoming more of a police state every day.

Another in custody death and so far it looks like justice will not prevail, after attending the coronors inquest of Ian Bush I found that inquests are a farce, you do not learn what actually happened because the R.C.M.P. hire really good lawyers that make sure you dont get to learn anything they dont want you to learn, the coronor is limited so you cant learn how an investigation was handled which is very convenient for the R.C.M.P. There have been way too many in custody deaths and we must fight as hard as we can to try to prevent any more from happening. The pain from losing someone close to you is still very much there after over 2 years so far for me my heart goes out to the families of others who have lost someone in a in custody death.

OK so feeling "stupid" is a little strong to own up to, so at least admit most of the posters had to recognize that they were being silly at the very least.

World opinion? Really? Canada is considered a terrorist haven and would this incident really change that? And why does any ones opinion matter? We love to swap opinions all the time. Can't live your life worrying about what someones opinion about you is. Or at least I'm not one of those type of people.

Palopu

The Europeans will embarass our cop doormat government to deal with our blue savages. Why? The Winter Olympics.

Vancouver's retired Chief of Police, Jamie Graham, left office in face of inevitable dismissal. They didn't want someone like him in office, while foreign visitors were subjecting the city to scrutiny. Rich Coleman (ex-RCMP) was dumped from the Solicitor General office for the same reason.

You are right to ignore the specious arguments; either circumstances existed that justified the use of the second level of force - under armed force - or they did not. No semantic gymnastics can justify this cop crime. Let the excessive force mob embarass themselves, yet again.

Dave said:

"I believe that the only one responsible for Robert Dziekanski death is Robert Dziekanski"

You may believe that. But it shows up your inability to look at systems and the due diligence people involved in those systems are expected to play in order for the system to work as foolproof as possible. Follow the path, from the time he left Poland till the time he ended up landing in Canada and the time he was tasered.

He is an individual who was travelling and along that travel path there were numerous times he was in touch with people who provided service to him and his fellow passengers. He paid for a ticket, and he could rightfully expect service along the way. When, for some reason or other that is not really clear to me, he was detained in following through the controlled path that a person going from A to B is “forced” to go through when flying and could not leave or was not instructed how to proceed to the next step in that controlled system because an international airport did not have the ability to deal with an individual because, at least what appears to me to be a case of not even knowing what language the person spoke, is that the person’s fault that he was killed because of a language problem? Surely someone running an international airport must have considered at one point or another the circumstance of what to do when it become important to have to communicate with a person not speaking English. I cannot believe that speaking English is a requirement for travelling through the airport. When small children travel unaccompanied by an adult, they get a badge around their neck and a flight attendant takes them through the system to meet their parent or guardian.

It appears from this case that such a system should be in place for someone who does not speak the language at the other end of the trip – the card has contact people and other information on it. Animals travelling in crates get such care, why shouldn’t humans have access to that. The passenger has not designed the system. Not only that, but why should a person who may be flying internationally for the first time know how that system works?

We know nothing about this person’s ability to think through such things. We now probably know that there were no drugs involved. We also would likely have been told by now that he had a known medical condition. We may not know, however, whether he was a bit “slow” on the uptake because family does not like to talk about that sort of thing. Maybe identifying that he was from a small village and was an individual who made his living primarily through his physical ability rather than his mental ability is partially sending that message. Let us just say he was not a “man of the world” and “well seasoned traveler”.

What worked against him was that he was not a child, he was not an elderly person who had to be guided through the system on a wheelchair, he was an ordinary looking guy without an apparent need for “special handling” through the system.

Then we get to the final situation.

Who has a due diligence with respect to tasers? The manufacturers and those who chose to give a large group of individuals that tool. We have to know, what we are starting to realize now, that it is not a perfect tool. Because it involves human physiology, the effect of the tool will actually depend on the physiology of that person. It should not be the person’s fault that their physiology does not happen to fall in the middle of the bell curve. For instance, those with pacemakers are more at risk. Those with heart arrhythmia are more at risk. There are many more people in the general population with such medical conditions than there are those who are on hard drugs. That is not the traveller’s fault. Thus tasers should, and do come with such precautions attached to them.

So, we get down to the human factor once more. Training individuals who use the tools. First of all, the system is likely like the system set up for a Hilti gun license. A few hours of training, some multiple choice questions, and you get a “ticket” to use it. The organization has done its “due diligence”. That is simply not good enough. There is no real quality control. As with too many things in our society, it is complaint driven rather than inspection driven. Any complaint driven system means that when there is a complaint, the process has failed to do what it is supposed to do. That is fine when we are dealing with potholes, although even there they are hazardous to driving and can be the cause of accidents which maim or kill. It certainly is not sufficient when using tools such as tasers which have conditions of use attached to them by the manufacturer; which also have attached to them the responsibility of ensuring that those using it have an appropriate level of training; and, in its use, have a responsibility of ensuring they remain on top of updates of problems cause in their use throughout the part of the system where they are used.

So, the recommendations of the police complaints commission should have been known to all concerned by now and they should have acted accordingly. They did not.

In all I have described, and that is just the surface of the complex system in place to guide people from Poland to Canada, Robert Dziekanski had very little control. When he bought a ticket in Poland, he did not understand the risk involved in putting his trust in other’s hand in the process. Very few people do until it happens to them.

Re Ontario Provincial Police participation: they are glorified traffic and backwoods cops. In 1998, one of their own was charged with Murder, after an angry cop failed to get his superiors to register a charge against a youth who threatened him over the phone. A friendly Justice of the Peace signed a non-entry warrant, and the cop formed a posse who attended the home of Tony Romagnuolo at 8 PM, on December 28. The arrest target (forgot name) complied even though he did NOT have to exist his home. Cops had been recording events, then as the youth was complying, cops began their revenge play, after turning off the recorder.

Tony R intervened in defence of his son, and grabbed a cop by the neck. Rather than do the easy move to break the hold, the cop shot Tony to death. The body was left in place in the front yard for 2 full days. Crown Counsel held the trial against 3 cops, locally, even though no local prosecutor would take it. OPP members flooded the courtroom, and stared down the jury. (The OPP normally allows a 10 kilometre speed variance on highways; that can be misused at will) The local jury was intimidated into an acquittal. Justice was defeated by the OPP.

BTW, if someone were to say that a person who commits suicide in a jail cell is at fault, I would be more inclined to agree with you.

You should know, and you may already know that, that to prevent such cases, millions of dollars have been spent to retrofit jail cells, especially those in small communities where they are often used as holding tanks overnight. CCTVs have been installed, new toilets, new bunks, ventilation registers have been relocated, through the door observation windows have been relocated so that the sight lines are uninterrupted throughout the entire room.

I am virtually 100% certain, that the number of deaths by suicide of those who have been put into such holding cells since 2003 is lower than the rate of the 17 deaths immediately following (note not as a result of) a taser attack.

Once more with feeling ... a report which is over 2 years old from the police complaint commissioner:

“In Canada, a spate of four deaths over a 15-month period in British Columbia led the B.C. Police Complaints Commissioner to call for an investigation in 2004. The final report came out in 2005. It recommended that Tasers be used only when suspects are violent and threatening. IF A SUSPECT IS RESISTANT BUT NOT ATTACKING, the Taser shouldn't be used at all, the report said.

But, it seems there are a number of people here who wish to ignore that. The video clearly shows the subject was not ATTACKING. When a policeman motioned him to stop, as the subject was walking away, the subject followed that order with his back to the counter. He was not in an attacking stance. He may have picked up a stapler in a defensive move, who knows for what purpose in the state of mind he was in. I am not sure how many deaths or even injuries there have been as a result of using staplers in attacks on individuals. Perhaps the RCMP have those stats readily available and based their decision on the probability of one of their members, wearing protective clothing, being killed by a stapler (as opposed to a staple gun).

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071018/tasers_background_071018/20071018

BTW, just to clarify, it says ATTACKING, it does not say PREPARING TO ATTACK!!

We also must remember that the taser is also designed to be used at close range. For those who have shown enough interest to educated themselves about what the report says, they would also know that it recommended that it be used in that mode prior to the dart method.

So, let's get into some deatils here. When one officer asked of another whether he could or should use a taser, there was no question as to which method he was to use it.

So, the person who was unable to use his judgement whether to use it, and had to ask permission from a probable superior, was likely not even in a position to decide how to use it.

It also does not say CAPABLE OF ATTACKING ... it says ATTAKING ...

Hopefully it is starting to sink into people as to the conditions of use of the tool and that those conditions spelled out 2 1/2 years ago were not applied.

from the above site ....

"Police considered using batons, but thought the optics would be bad."

From my point of view that is an indication that there is very lousy instruction in the comparative risks of baton versus tasers given to police.

It does indicate that they are sensitve to the situation of public perception.

It also introduces once more the sequence of steps which should be gone through when confronted with such a situation.

The risk to the public was virtually nil since the person was unarmed and would not be able to endanger any public.

Negotiation is the next tactic. So, you canlt negotiate since the person does not speak english. Is that a reason to say that that step has been exhausted? These RCMP are not in downtown Vancouver. They are in an international airport and that is to be expected as a possbile scenario.

So, why was that not in the training of those who are stationed there or who have that as part of their beat? If it was not included up to now, should it be included after this incident? Should that be a recommendation from any coroner's inquest?

Why should it take a death to come up with such an obvious scenario? Are we all that stupid? Are we all so provincial that we do not realize not everyone passing through the airport speaks english?

"Physically large people can be at particular risk of excited delirium."

That is what it says at the bottom of the site I linked above. That is the first time I have become aware of that. Did any of those who say this is Dziekanski's fault know this?

So, he is at fault because he was a large guy? In common law, that is not a defense. A person cannot be blamed for something because he has what is called in practice "the thin skull syndrom".

In other words, you can't beat a guy over the head and use as a defense in a homicide case that he died because he was abnormal in that he had a thinner than normal skull and you could not have known that.

We should start looking at apologists for systemic police corruption, excessive force and false arrest, as untrained puppies, and rub their noses in cop crap. AFTER the Airport Electrocution incident, Victoria's Police Chief was suspended pending a secret investigation. Battershill is still charged with the investigation into the incident involving RCMP cop, Cst Alford. The cops who covered up the fact that the lush poisoned her liver at police headquarters, are also under investigation. Alford drove drunk. Burnaby RCMP couldn't cover it up, because she caused an accident. She plead guilty to DUI. And these cops did all this AFTER the corruption scandal at national headquarters. No excuses!

RCMP - SLEAZE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9T51WDeAsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bja9JY8JKQQ&feature=related
Alford promoted after driving drunk; sentencing to driver's licence suspension for a year.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/voices/story.html?id=9e3fe861-0cd8-4af2-baeb-100d9ecd7edf

owl:

Check out this first report on the Airport Electrocution. It is full of direct and indirect cop lies. No wonder they told the videotaper that he wouldn't get the tape back for a couple of years. They expected media to run with their spin. Don't condemn Global too much; media have to go with what they know. If all they have are self interested police accounts, then that they have no alternative but to use it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93owabd4j-U&feature=related

May I add:
The headlines are full of mostly stories about "Taser death" . Someone really has to dig to locate info to the contrary.
Here is a tidbit:
cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428327912&rem=79604&red=80132723aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm
Speaking on CKNW's Christy Clark show, Scott says Robert Dziekanski should have been offered help in his own language, "There's even an immigration phone, I understand. If you go down the hallway just past where the- what you call the kiosk- there's a little office. Right after the primary inspection line, there are translation services, also the documentation. We have it in 12 languages, including Polish."

Scott also wonders why the man's mother was not told her son was in the airport several hours before she returned to Kamloops around 10pm on October 13th.
____________________
There was help available to the Pole. Bet you didn't know that.

He had cleared customs many hours before but never left? Maybe a walk outside would have cleared his head.

People tried to help him but he just cussed them and told them to go away.

Taser International is pressuring media to deny any causal role between deaths after Taser attacks. Why? The focus has been on police conduct. What do their training manuals say about cop calling writhing in agony, non-compliance? Taser sells to over 11,000 police "services" (cough); they want to keep the cash flow.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=129937&p=NewsArticle&id=1079167

I know of an old guy that can test a 220 volt 100 Amp wire with is bare hands to see if its live or not. He has really dry skin and that is why he can do that. Other people have been killed by as little as .0003 amps for the simple reason that their skin was wet and thus conductive. Luck of the draw.

I submit that someone that is calm and has dry skin is likely under far less threat to complications from a tazer hit then a person that has clammy skin from fear, anxiety, or exhustion and thus the wet skin person would be far more suseptible to a tazer hit as a lethal weapon.

I would also sugest that all testing is done on dry skin in a dry controlled invironment. Where is the cop that wears a garbage bag for a ten minute jog and then lets them tazer his wet clammy skin.

Is justice (ultimate in some cases)nothing more then luck of the draw with this tazer tool of the RCMP? Shouldn't I have a right to not ever have that experment taken with my life?

Owl says "..So, he is at fault because he was a large guy? In common law, that is not a defense. A person cannot be blamed for something because he has what is called in practice "the thin skull syndrome"."

Owl if it was your job to wrestle a bear, what would you worry about? If we told you the bear might have a secret weakness what would you do. Hurry up, people are waiting and expect you do something! You are paid to do this, now get in there! He moving! What the hell is the moving for? Watch out for debris on the floor, what a mess! Get the people back! Come on Owl do something for criss sake! Moron, move!

Well,I sure feel much better now knowing that the OPP will be investigating what happened!
Why do cops fight so hard to keep the public out and all issues internal?
Oh ya,I remember now...it's because the public is stupid and could not possibly understand what it is like to be a cop and why they do what they do.
Well the public is NOT stupid,and the only way the RCMP will ever reclaim their stature as Canada's finest is by an independant review.
Cops should never investigate cops, but I guess there is no point in debating THAT issue any more.
Our new "top cop",(you know, the guy that has never been a cop) obviously is not going to change that either.
Remember the outcry from the RCMP when he was chosen for the job?
He will be blocked at every opportunity and nothing will change!
That was a foregone conclusion when he got the job, and the only ones who can change that are our politicians!
But that won't happen either.
At least this mess will accomplish one thing.
Perhaps now the public will start to realize just how much they are controled and manipulated and how little they really have to say about any of it!

In case anyone is interested this topic is going to be debated on the talk show "Cross Country Checkup" on CBC Radio One this afternoon from 1:05 to 3:00.

cool....thanks charles!

Soon on the shelves at Wal Mart. Muliple chambered, rapid fire stapler. Complete with laser sighting, infrared heat scanning, Auto tazer detection. Custom comfort Colt 45 replica pistol grip handle. One-handed auto reload feature. Multi- sex colours available. Child version available with plastic staples. Fun for the entire family. Warning: For ages 4 and up. Use at YVR at your own discretion!!!

hahaha,heheeh...:-)..good one pisspulper!

"Owl if it was your job to wrestle a bear, what would you worry about?"

A bear? What the heck does a bear have to do with this? What does wrestling have to do with this.

The fellow did not want to wrestle anyone. He walked away from wrestling with the 4 RCMP. They confronted him further.

I do not know the layout of the area. The fact that the walkway from the door was provided with rails and glass below the handrails indicates to me that it was not a 100% secure area, but that people, when they left the room were expected to walk in a guided and directed direction. It appears that the room he was in was likely a "secure" waiting room of sorts and likely did not have an uncontrolled exit anywhere else. Thus, if that is the case, the fellow could have stayed baricaded in there for some time. The RCMP did not have to intrude or could have withdrawn to find translation help to communicate with the fellow.

Ifthat was not the case, then they could have cordoned off the room in the part we did not see.

How many times does it take to bring forward the notion that communication and negotiation was the next step and they did not seriously implement that?

One cannot communicate with a bear to well other than by eye and physical stance. However, the guy was neither deaf, nor was he unable to speak. He was unable to speak English and the RCMP, in an international airport, were unable to take advantage of the services which are provided at such an airport to communicate with him. SO, too, were others who came before the RCMP.

I tell you, from a foreigners point of view, this speaks a lot about the arrogance of Canadians who presume only their language counts in this world!!

The video we saw on the news was only a shortened version of the entire episode.
I have watched the 10+ minute(aprox.)version 3 times so far and I STILL cannot come to any other conclusion that this was not an absolute missuse of power.
Sure,they did not mean to kill this guy,but they did and that cannot be ignored or justified.
Now,we are told to wait until all the facts come out.
Well,we SAW all the facts,now we will see all the SPIN!

From the mouths of TASER

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=129937&p=NewsArticle&id=1079167

“The video of the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was CONTINUING TO FIGHT well after the TASER application. This CONTINUING STRUGGLE could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His CONTINUING STRUGGLE is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death.”

A CYA report from TASER written by someone who has not seen the tape or had his sunglasses on when he/she did so.

Heart attacks can be caused as a result of simple shock. That happens relatively frequently. So, someone can be in a car accident, receive no injuries or minor injuries, but die as a result of shock. The car accident, in that case, was not a cause of the death, but was a contributor of the death.

The same with tasers.

When watching the video, I defy anyone to tell me when his writhing from spasms, and likely pain, and likely the simple shock that this should be happening to him, stopped, and a struggle, if ever, started. On top of that, if there was a struggle once the first police officer decided to bodily control him, one does not know whether it was a struggle resist control or a struggle to regain control of the simple physical requirement of breathing, for instance.

BTW, does anyone know yet what the official cause of death was? What did the coroner who made out the death certificate record?Asphyxiation? Shock (non electrical induced) or some other reason?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html

"(12) Side of neck. A sharp blow to the side of the neck causes
unconsciousness by shock to the carotid artery, jugular vein, and vagus nerve.
For maximum effect, the blow should be focused below and slightly in front
of the ear. A less powerful blow causes involuntary muscle spasms and
intense pain. The side of the neck is one of the best targets to use to drop an
opponent immediately or to disable him temporarily to finish him later.
(13) Back of neck. A powerful blow to the back of one’s neck can cause
whiplash, concussion, or even a broken neck and death."
borrowed from: http://www.judoinfo.com/pdf/PressurePoints.pdf
One of you that didn't agree with my opinion stated you took something like martial arts and the knee to neck just keeps the opponent down unable to fight back well I decided to read about it myself and this is what I found. Not saying this is what happened but the taser is being defended highly so what was the cause of death? I guess we'll see what the coroners report states.

"A powerful BLOW to the back of one's neck can cause..."
Pinning someone to the ground with your knee isn't a blow. It does not have the sudden force that a blow does.

It will indeed be interesting to see what the coroner's report says. If it does claim that the gentleman dies by any other cause than excessive force, I wonder how long before the cries of cover up.

owl:

The cops have a history of conning judges and juries into treating the effects of agony as non-compliance. The first cop trial in the Rodney King case, revealed how white racism was induced in order to cause white jurors to identify with their own, and share an untenable treatment of actual conduct. In the following trial of a Surrey RCMP cop before a judge who had served as Deputy Regional Crown Counsel, in spite of visual evidence that the cop inflicted an injurious kick to the head of a man who was disabled by a police dog bite, the judge used the non-compliance fiction to exhonerate his fellow officer of the court.

http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc/2005/2005bcpc188/2005bcpc188.html

Then there was the pepper spray atrocity at APEC. At the Hughes Commission, that paid fact finder exhonerated the cop assailants, based on a fiction that the assaults were necessary and expedient. Hughes did that even though the cop who gave the order - Inspector Bill Dingwall - admitted that he falsified a police report by including a fiction that the targets were blocking a street. So emboldened, Sgt Hugh Stewart gave same 2 seconds warning before he assaulted them with toxic chemicals. In the infamous video, Stewart is seen specifically target media. They should have been jailed. Instead, after being found to have violated 2 Charter rights, Dingwall was appointed to Commander of Maple Ridge-RCMP. From there he became - and I can't make this up - after being the cause of mega millions of dollars in costs to the public (viz Public Complaints Commission hearings), in charge of public complaint investigation at E-Division, Vancouver. He is now one of the top ranking RCMP BC cops.

"Pinning someone to the ground with your knee isn't a blow. It does not have the sudden force that a blow does."

This is true. The pasted words are from a martial arts document. A steady pressure in the same area is much more effective.

;-)

See actual case where the RCMP Public Complaints Commission overruled an exhoneration of cops, who didn't follow use of force guidelines.
http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/DefaultSite/Case_Summaries/index_e.aspx?ArticleID=490

The Globe and Mail reviews police literature on force.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071116.BCTASERTICTOC16/TPStory/TPNational/BritishColumbia/

Use of force model used in Ontario:
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/issues/102004/PDFS/Page129_fig2.pdf

According to the Model, cops should "assess" then "plan" before they "act." The airport cops didn't take evidence from witnesses and - even though the man was not involved in a crime when they attended - they approached him, and when he raised his hands and turned his back on them - obviously in frustration - it was then that they chose to taser a non-assaultive target.

Remember: the Taser gang was heard discussing use of same before they even approached their target.

I am just listening to X country check up ... The Polish Ambassador to Canada was asked whether Tasers were used in Poland.

The response was yes ... for hardened criminals, not for immigrants without a criminal record.

May I add:
The headlines are full of mostly stories about "Taser death" . Someone really has to dig to locate info to the contrary.
Here is a tidbit:
cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428327912&rem=79604&red=80132723aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm
Speaking on CKNW's Christy Clark show, Scott says Robert Dziekanski should have been offered help in his own language, "There's even an immigration phone, I understand. If you go down the hallway just past where the- what you call the kiosk- there's a little office. Right after the primary inspection line, there are translation services, also the documentation. We have it in 12 languages, including Polish."

Scott also wonders why the man's mother was not told her son was in the airport several hours before she returned to Kamloops around 10pm on October 13th.
____________________
There was help available to the Pole. Bet you didn't know that.

He had cleared customs many hours before but never left? Maybe a walk outside would have cleared his head.

People tried to help him but he just cussed them and told them to go away.

Ah .... dave left his computer on, it fell asleep, then he refreshed his window into this site.....

;-)

Dave, if your considering on being an investigative reporter, here's some advice. Don't quit your day job. Why? You know not, what your talking about. What color are the clouds in Dave's world?

A very good point was brought up on Cross Country Check-up earlier by a retired senior RCMP memeber...he said...
"Mr.Dziekanzki could not have been resisting arrest because he had never been arrested"...
and that from an ex-cop!
Very interesting program, and it is obvious the majority of people think the cover-up will come, and nobody will take the responsibility for this guy's death.
It is also interesting that there seems to be a move to throw this back at our politicians,which by the way,is exactly where it should go.
If nothing else it may just make people aware that our law enforcement angencies WILL lie to the public.

There is a lot of new information in this story:
canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=91d15fde-4dff-45f3-b39a-07e5 c6a04206&k=34271

This is not the first I have read of his nicotine withdrawal (only in the last day has this info come out).
Now read the circumstances of the life he left, the 2 drunks banging on the door and yelling the entire time the interview was going on, the empty vodka bottle, the drunk, nicotine saturated common law wife (he abandoned). I have yet to see any news source characterize him as a drunk but I will wager we hear that shortly. I still contend that the only one responsible for Robert Dziekanski death is Robert Dziekanski. Even with all that happened up to the time that RCMP arrived, if Robert Dziekanski had surrendered peacefully he would have received help. Post 911 you don’t go berserk in an airport and not expect consequences. Even with all of the destruction he had wrought, I believe the Canadians are a compassionate people and he would have been detained, fed and put in contact with his mother and probably sent on his way with a ticket. He probably would have had to pay for the computer he destroyed (over the course of many years). He chose to fight for no good reason. I am still not sure he would not have had a heart attack anyway, as I have said I believe he is an alcoholic (and now know a nicotine fiend) that was going through Excited Delirium, also known as Paranoid Rage. The “Mounties” are highly respected in the USA and I have a hard time understanding the hard feelings expressed by so many Canuck’s. I can only surmise they have received traffic tickets they did not like paying. Tasers don’t kill anybody, the science exists to prove that and Taser is 59 to 0 in lawsuits brought by greedy, highly monetarily motivated lawyers. Like many tools a cop carries, a Taser can be used as a tool of abuse but so can many other things. I also believe abuse should be dealt with and punished.

As I have said ad nauseam, I believe RCMP acted professionally and courteously toward the Pole until he fled and armed himself. RCMP then neutralized the threat quickly and effectively. When one Taser jolt didn’t convince him to drop the weapon, they administered a 2nd jolt and then had to use a baton to remove the weapon from his hand. RCMP don’t go to work willing to let someone bash them in the head with a stapler, would you?

an interesting article from MacLeans
http://www.macleans.ca/canada/wire/article.jsp?content=n111838A

Figures on Taser use based on reports filed by the RCMP

OTTAWA - Number of events reviewed: 606
Dates: March 2002 to March 2005. Majority from 2004.

Number of events by province and territory:
B.C. 230;
Alberta 95;
Saskatchewan 152;
Manitoba 21;
Ontario 1;
New Brunswick 9;
Nova Scotia 8;
P.E.I. 21;
Newfoundland and Labrador 27;
Northwest Territories 10;
Yukon 11;
Nunavut 21.

Number of events in which Taser used: 563

Number of events in which Taser unholstered but not used: 43

NUMBER OF EVENTS IN WHICH SUSPECT UNARMED: 445

Number of events in which suspect armed: 118
(Source: Canadian Press analysis of RCMP Taser use reports)

Mr Dziekanski didn't resist arrest. However, it should be noted that resistance to an unlawful arrest is legal. Check this out:
http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments/pc/2002/05/p02_0585.htm

[46] In my view the facts of Regina v. Twiss, supra are similar to the case at hand. The subsequent struggle between the accused and the constables was a continuation of his attempts to resist the illegal detention. Further, the force used by the accused was not excessive in all of the circumstances. No substantial injuries were caused to the constables. The accused was being held down by two adult men, one of whom was attempting to carry out a painful manoeuvre on his legs while the other attempted to secure a head lock. The accused was already suffering injuries from a motor vehicle accident earlier that day or the day prior. I thus conclude that the accused's illegal detention, in the circumstances of this case, cannot be turned into a lawful arrest for assault.

[47] In the end result, I find the accused not guilty of the included offence of assault.

Tim we all know what a blow is but do you think the pressure points in Roberts neck cared how they were being abused? If it was strictly the taser that killed him then I apologize. I want to hear from a doctor about this.

"Post 911 you don’t go berserk in an airport and not expect consequences."

This fellow is from Poland, not North America. 9/11 does not mean anything to him. In fact, it was apparently the first time he flew... so he was also scared of flying ....

There is aboslutely no excuse for the RCMP not attempting to defuse the situation before. There is also no excuse for the security at YVR not trying to help the situation other than deferring to the RCMP.

Thes people have been ill-trained, have no undertstanding of human nature, do not know that one starts with trying to help rather than trying to hurt .... you know, sort of something like the written documentation tells the RCMP to do.

These people are sort of something like you Dave.

Welcome to the Gitmo world.

Thanks for that information! CrossCountry Checkup today was a hoot! A 30 year ex-veteran with the RCMP called in and invited all those *ordinary armchair quarterbacks* who express criticism of The Force to move to East LA to see if they like it better over there!

Arrogance supreme, in my opinion. Do not dare to question any of the versions given to the public, be it pre-video or post-video or we shall *invite* you to hit the road!

Cheers!

The cause of death on the certificate apparently states that the death was due to the taser brought on by pre-existing heart conditions.

I am beginning to understand now that leads of the taser will penetrate the skin and can disrupt the blood flow which causes the spasmic reactions. Those reactions can, in some cases, continue until the person dies of those spasms and heart arythmia.

The images clearly show that he was down for a considerable time. In fact, it does not look like he was about to get up as the first officer started to get down to the floor. I am not sure why he chose to do that. In fact, there appears to be a hesitation on his part in even doing so. At least that is my impression. In other words, he may not have experienced this reaction before, of an individual being down that long.

That is quite different from several other videos that are on the net of people being tasered.

Exellent research Owl!!
Thanks!

Owl: "Welcome to the Gitmo world."

At Gitmo they may remember to apply CPR if a prisoner is tasered and doesn't have a pulse afterwards!

Did the *arresting* officers follow regulations with immediate CPR???

Apparently Airport First Aid could have been there in two minutes, yet apparently an ambulance was called instead and it got there 12 minutes later, far too late for any life-saving measures, of course.

If the 4 police officers did everything so perfectly (according to merciless Dave) why have they been *re-assigned*?

Strange, isn't it?

Dave, as I stated earlier, your not cut out for investigative journalism. The following is one, of your mistaken over sights, You stated,
( had to use a baton to remove the weapon from his hand)
The truth of the matter is, the baton fell from the Mountie holder during the scuffle, the banging of the baton, on the FLOOR was to collapsed it, so that the Mountie could re holster it . He never hit Mr Robert Dziekanski with it. And yes we know he left behind a drinking problem. For that he should be dead? That's what your stating. I asked you earlier, what color are the clouds in your world?

There is a lot of new information in this story:
canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=91d15fde-4dff-45f3-b39a-07e5 c6a04206&k=34271

This is not the first I have read of his nicotine withdrawal (only in the last day has this info come out).
Now read the circumstances of the life he left, the 2 drunks banging on the door and yelling the entire time the interview was going on, the empty vodka bottle, the drunk, nicotine saturated common law wife (he abandoned). I have yet to see any news source characterize him as a drunk but I will wager we hear that shortly. I still contend that the only one responsible for Robert Dziekanski death is Robert Dziekanski. Even with all that happened up to the time that RCMP arrived, if Robert Dziekanski had surrendered peacefully he would have received help. Post 911 you don’t go berserk in an airport and not expect consequences. Even with all of the destruction he had wrought, I believe the Canadians are a compassionate people and he would have been detained, fed and put in contact with his mother and probably sent on his way with a ticket. He probably would have had to pay for the computer he destroyed (over the course of many years). He chose to fight for no good reason. I am still not sure he would not have had a heart attack anyway, as I have said I believe he is an alcoholic (and now know a nicotine fiend) that was going through Excited Delirium, also known as Paranoid Rage. The “Mounties” are highly respected in the USA and I have a hard time understanding the hard feelings expressed by so many Canuck’s. I can only surmise they have received traffic tickets they did not like paying. Tasers don’t kill anybody, the science exists to prove that and Taser is 59 to 0 in lawsuits brought by greedy, highly monetarily motivated lawyers. Like many tools a cop carries, a Taser can be used as a tool of abuse but so can many other things. I also believe abuse should be dealt with and punished.

As I have said ad nauseam, I believe RCMP acted professionally and courteously toward the Pole until he fled and armed himself. RCMP then neutralized the threat quickly and effectively. When one Taser jolt didn’t convince him to drop the weapon, they administered a 2nd jolt and then had to use a baton to remove the weapon from his hand. RCMP don’t go to work willing to let someone bash them in the head with a stapler, would you?

Now the sleaze bag "common" law wife the Pole abandoned is calling the RCMP "Murder's". The alcoholic nicotine fiend terroristic madman that that tore up a secure area in an international airport was not treated with compassion and understanding by RCMP and now they are the bad guys?
Once again, if the alcoholic nicotine fiend terroristic madman that that tore up a secure area in an international airport wanted some attention, he had achieved that goal. Now, if he had just surrendered peacefully and not fled and armed himself he "might" still be alive although I believe he was just about to drop from a heart attack any way.

thanks owl and sorry Tim. Did they happen to say who performed the autopsy and who was all present in the room?

I read a lot of doubt that the Pole had armed himself with a stapler. Others say 'a stapler' that's no big deal. No member of RCMP goes to work willing to allow a madman to hit them in the head with a stapler. Anyone doubt a hard strike to the head with a stapler could be fatal or very damaging?

And if you still doubt he had armed himself with a stapler check out all of the references to witness reports here:
news.google.com/news?hl=en&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&resnum=0&ct=pr operty-revision&cd=1&scoring=n&q=stapler+Dziekanski&btnG=Search+News

EVERYTHING changed when he armed himself

"Anyone doubt a hard strike to the head with a stapler could be fatal or very damaging?"

Let me see .... the last time someone was killed by an office stapler was .... 1953 in Yuma, I believe ...??

The last time someone was killed by a taser was???? ... never ... tasers do not kill ....

;-)

"The alcoholic nicotine fiend"

I travel with those on airplanes quite frequently .... they even feed them more alcohol on the plane ... amzing that homebrew ... oops .. homeland security has not stopped that ......

Then I have to put on my mask to ward off the nicotine as I get out the door and wait for a cab

;-)

You are a hoot Dave .... do you work at Tim Horton's and have pistol envy when all those cops come in????

;-)

I read a lot of doubt that the Pole had armed himself with a stapler. Others say 'a stapler' that's no big deal. No member of RCMP goes to work willing to allow a madman to hit them in the head with a stapler. Anyone doubt a hard strike to the head with a stapler could be fatal or very damaging?

And if you still doubt he had armed himself with a stapler check out all of the references to witness reports here:
news.google.com/news?hl=en&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&resnum=0&ct=pr operty-revision&cd=1&scoring=n&q=stapler+Dziekanski&btnG=Search+News

EVERYTHING changed when he armed himself

Dave, as I stated earlier, your not cut out for investigative journalism. The following is one, of your mistaken over sights, You stated,
( had to use a baton to remove the weapon from his hand)
The truth of the matter is, the baton fell from the Mountie holder during the scuffle, the banging of the baton, on the FLOOR was to collapsed it, so that the Mountie could re holster it . He never hit Mr Robert Dziekanski with it"

I agree and stand corrected.

I'm not sure how to copy/paste the embedded url thingy on youtube but if you go towww.youtube.com and type in "Dead Man Tasered" in the search bar you can watch the clip. Mike Farnsworth was so upset he couldn't talk. Sad. Also, a doctor gave his opinion on the matter. They mentioned the RCMP had 70 more tasers ordered. They also talked about how extremely dangerous it is to put weight on the victims shoulders and back after being tasered. You'd have to listen to the rest to see how the tasers that were ordered will be handled as i'm not sure of word to word. So if it wasn't the knee to the neck could it have been the weight on his back that stopped his heart and they are blaming it on heart conditions alone?

Dave, as I stated earlier, your not cut out for investigative journalism. The following is one, of your mistaken over sights, You stated,
( had to use a baton to remove the weapon from his hand)
The truth of the matter is, the baton fell from the Mountie holder during the scuffle, the banging of the baton, on the FLOOR was to collapsed it, so that the Mountie could re holster it . He never hit Mr Robert Dziekanski with it"

I agree and stand corrected.

Getting Tasered is Fun
http://www.ifilm.com/video/2711758

Lie #1 - the target was armed with a stapler, and intended to use it as a weapon. Fact - If a stapler was picked up it wasn't there as he writhed in agony before falling - I slowed the video and lightened the picture - after the first assault; he was prostrate and making involuntary movements when he was assaulted again. There is no foundation for believing that he intended to use a weapon; the fact that he raised his arms in frustration, and then backed off, proves non-belligerence. Again, he was NOT arrested, so he did not resist arrest.

Lie #2 - the target displayed a pattern of aggression, and posed a threat to persons. Fact - he neither threatened nor assaulted any individual. He stopped piling objects against the door, when police arrived. Police omitted to gather information necessary to plan a response to the situation, and they had ample time to do so. Cops knew he didn't speak English and was in an unknown crisis situation, yet refused to use resources that would have resolved same. Cops get only 65 days of class training (with followups); they are not even public safety amateurs, let alone professionals. They treat their usurpatious private law codes - loyalty, silence and retaliation, as superior to the Criminal Code. What they can't coverup, they whitewash. Who they have to serve, they smear. Where they have to inculpate their own, they plant exculpatory fiction, as ersatz evidence.

Lie #3 - cops have to make split second decisions with life and death import, and their judgment should be trusted. Fact - one report on Canada's busiest police service (Toronto) found that they only contact a hostile person every 5 weeks. Cops delay service so that they do NOT have to put themselves in danger; protection of their wage payers is their lowest concern. As for trust, cops are pathological and serial liars, to whom Perjury is a sacrament. The average Canadian slug delivers work product of 1 conviction per month, and 1 incarcerated person per year.
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/issues/102004/PDFS/Page129_fig2.pdf

Referring to the Ontario Use of Force Model, clearly, the cops targeted someone classified as compliant since they didn't give him anything to comply to. And they chose use of a "hard impact" weapon, that was once classified as a firearm. They used the target's writhing in agony, as a false exemplary of non-compliance. Having submitted reports, it is certain that they committed Obstruction of Justice, by intentionally falsifying a statutory declaration. Given that they would benefit should their deceit be bought by prosecutorial or judicial officers, Breach of Trust was also committed.

Fanatics like Dave, have the mentality of infants. He knows he is lying; but deceit gives him comfort. He probably lives vicariously through cop TV, which allows him to share a life that is better than his own. I suspect he is wheel chair bound, and they won't let him in the Special Olympics.

Why We Fight
canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=77b81399-9adf-47ff-a078-2b0fe1f4661d
Tragedy worsened by cynical view
Brian Hutchinson, National Post
Published: Saturday, November 17, 2007
VANCOUVER -Robert Dziekanski's death at Vancouver International Airport was a terrible tragedy that need not have happened. But the incident has been made worse by casual assumptions and baseless accusations, most of them directed at members of the RCMP.
Using force to subdue Mr. Dziekanski, who was acting erratically, police accidentally killed the man. In some versions, picked from the media dog pile, it was not an accident. In some versions, it was an execution. In some versions, certain facts are ignored.
Commenting on Thursday on video footage of the October incident, captured by a passerby named Paul Pritchard, one TV news correspondent declared that four RCMP officers "stormed" into an international arrivals area where Mr. Dziekanski paced back and forth, in a confused and distressed state.
In fact, the video footage shows quite the opposite: The officers slowly approached the area that separates the arrivals area from a public space, and walked inside.
In an editorial yesterday, The Globe and Mail called "the killing of Robert Dziekanski" a "summary execution." The video experience was "like watching a snuff film." Perhaps the writer speaks from experience.
In their effort to incriminate the police, Globe and Mail editorialists mischaracterized what took place last month at YVR. They also ignored a thorough and accurate description of the Pritchard video footage, written earlier by one of their own Vancouver-based reporters.
According to the editorialists, Mr. Dziekanski was not "violent." He "did not resist police or confront them," and he "was not armed." The editorialists must not have looked closely at Mr. Pritchard's video. If they had described the video accurately, they would have noted that Mr. Dziekanski is seen pacing back and forth, and shouting at passersby and airport security personnel. He picks up a small folding table and holds it in front of him like a shield, legs sticking out. He takes hold of a chair; according to one passerby, his startled voice caught on Mr. Pritchard's videotape, "he almost threw the chair through the window" separating the arrivals area from the rest of the airport. He grabs what looks like a laptop computer and hurls it to the ground. He throws another object at a window. Tellingly, no one approaches him.
The Globe and Mail's version: "At one point, Mr. Dziekanski seems to be organizing chairs to keep an automatic door from closing. At another, he throws something. He's upset. No wonder."
No wonder? He had endured a long trip from Poland. For reasons that remain unclear, he had not been able to collect his luggage on arrival at the Vancouver airport. He did not proceed through customs. His mother, who lives in Kamloops, B.C., waited to greet him outside of the international arrivals area. Eventually, she gave up and returned to Kamloops. "After hours of waiting, he was clearly frustrated, agitated," says The Globe and Mail. "Who wouldn't be?"
Is it so unthinkable that Mr. Dziekanski suffered an illness, one that removed from him the capacity to think clearly? Were that the case, he needed more help than airport security could provide. His behaviour was not normal. It caught the attention of Mr. Pritchard, among others. They did not intervene, and should not be faulted for that; Mr. Dziekanski, a large man who stood well over six feet tall, did not seem to welcome assistance.
When police finally arrived at the scene, 10 hours after Mr. Dziekanski landed in Vancouver, they approached him slowly. The Pritchard video footage picks up their voices; one officer asks, "How are you, sir?" There is no menace, but perhaps Mr. Dziekanski feels threatened. He waves his arms at the police dismissively, and marches away. This is the critical moment: Officers decide to apply force to subdue the man. The question, of course, is why?
Mr. Dziekanski was not empty-handed in the seconds before police shot him with a "conducted energy device," also known by the common brand name Taser. He grips something shiny in his right hand. Some eyewitnesses described the object as a stapler. It is worth noting. It may have changed everything.
The policeman fired; Mr. Dziekanski was hit with 50,000 volts of electricity. "More stopping power than a .357 Magnum," declares the weapon's Arizona-based manufacturer.
What we know, what we have seen and heard, is that Mr. Dziekanski's muscles seized involuntarily. He dropped the device he was holding and collapsed to the floor. He did not appear subdued but he was vulnerable, and not in a position to do others harm. An officer shot him again. The officers manhandled Mr. Dziekanski. They applied pressure to his head and neck. And he died. He should not have.
The Pritchard video is not the final word. The rest -- hours of events that led to the fatal confrontation, what airport authorities and police could, or could not, have done, who is responsible, what laws, if any, were broken, what sort of condition Mr. Dziekanski was in -- must be examined and made public, so that such an incident never again happens. So that his life might be honoured. Misleading people and deliberately ignoring details that don't conform to one's cynical view of authority only spread shame.
bhutchinson@nationalpost.com---------
Robert Dziekanski's Final Hours At Vancouver International Airport
Mother's futile wait for her son ends with hearing he is dead
(See hardcopy for Graphic)KAGAN McLEOD / NATIONAL POST
OCT. 13, 2007
1:30 p.m. Zofia Cisowski, Robert Dziekanski's mother, arrives at airport.
1:40 Plane is supposed to arrive.
3:00 Plane arrives.
4:00 Mr. Dziekanski clears customs.
4:00 Mother makes first inquiry at information desk about her son.
Between 7 and 8 Mother, after several trips to information desk on arrivals level of airport, is told to try the information desk upstairs at the departures level. That desk eventually agrees to page Mr. Dziekanski, although the page is not heard in the secure area where he is located.
7:30 Ms. Cisowski's travelling companion talks to CBSA or immigration official about Mr. Dziekanski by telephone, but receives no relevant information. 9:30 Travelling
companion speaks again by phone with CBSA or immigration official, is told "there is no Polish immigrant here tonight."
10:00 Mother
makes final trip to information desk, decides that Mr. Dziekanski must have missed his flight, and leaves for home, a four-hour drive.
10:30 For unknown reason, Mr. Dziekanski spends almost six-and-a-half hours in the baggage-claim. At 10:30 p.m. airport officials help him find his luggage. He then arrives at secondary inspection, and is sent to immigration.
11:30 Immigration official leaves message on mother's home phone: "It's Canada Immigration calling ... for Zofia. Well, we're expecting her
to be here, I guess, picking up her relative."
12:30 a.m. Mr. Dziekanski is released from immigration.
1:20 Airport operations is notified about a man reacting strangely.
1:25 Airport security responds; RCMP arrive shortly thereafter; two minutes later, Mr. Dziekanski is dead.
2:00 Ms. Cisowski arrives home, receives phone message.
6:00 Ms. Cisowski boards bus back to Vancouver.
Afternoon Ms. Cisowski is told that her son is dead.

Why We Fight
canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=77b81399-9adf-47ff-a078-2b0fe1f4661d
Tragedy worsened by cynical view
Brian Hutchinson, National Post
Published: Saturday, November 17, 2007
VANCOUVER -Robert Dziekanski's death at Vancouver International Airport was a terrible tragedy that need not have happened. But the incident has been made worse by casual assumptions and baseless accusations, most of them directed at members of the RCMP.
Using force to subdue Mr. Dziekanski, who was acting erratically, police accidentally killed the man. In some versions, picked from the media dog pile, it was not an accident. In some versions, it was an execution. In some versions, certain facts are ignored.
Commenting on Thursday on video footage of the October incident, captured by a passerby named Paul Pritchard, one TV news correspondent declared that four RCMP officers "stormed" into an international arrivals area where Mr. Dziekanski paced back and forth, in a confused and distressed state.
In fact, the video footage shows quite the opposite: The officers slowly approached the area that separates the arrivals area from a public space, and walked inside.
In an editorial yesterday, The Globe and Mail called "the killing of Robert Dziekanski" a "summary execution." The video experience was "like watching a snuff film." Perhaps the writer speaks from experience.
In their effort to incriminate the police, Globe and Mail editorialists mischaracterized what took place last month at YVR. They also ignored a thorough and accurate description of the Pritchard video footage, written earlier by one of their own Vancouver-based reporters.
According to the editorialists, Mr. Dziekanski was not "violent." He "did not resist police or confront them," and he "was not armed." The editorialists must not have looked closely at Mr. Pritchard's video. If they had described the video accurately, they would have noted that Mr. Dziekanski is seen pacing back and forth, and shouting at passersby and airport security personnel. He picks up a small folding table and holds it in front of him like a shield, legs sticking out. He takes hold of a chair; according to one passerby, his startled voice caught on Mr. Pritchard's videotape, "he almost threw the chair through the window" separating the arrivals area from the rest of the airport. He grabs what looks like a laptop computer and hurls it to the ground. He throws another object at a window. Tellingly, no one approaches him.
The Globe and Mail's version: "At one point, Mr. Dziekanski seems to be organizing chairs to keep an automatic door from closing. At another, he throws something. He's upset. No wonder."
No wonder? He had endured a long trip from Poland. For reasons that remain unclear, he had not been able to collect his luggage on arrival at the Vancouver airport. He did not proceed through customs. His mother, who lives in Kamloops, B.C., waited to greet him outside of the international arrivals area. Eventually, she gave up and returned to Kamloops. "After hours of waiting, he was clearly frustrated, agitated," says The Globe and Mail. "Who wouldn't be?"
Is it so unthinkable that Mr. Dziekanski suffered an illness, one that removed from him the capacity to think clearly? Were that the case, he needed more help than airport security could provide. His behaviour was not normal. It caught the attention of Mr. Pritchard, among others. They did not intervene, and should not be faulted for that; Mr. Dziekanski, a large man who stood well over six feet tall, did not seem to welcome assistance.
When police finally arrived at the scene, 10 hours after Mr. Dziekanski landed in Vancouver, they approached him slowly. The Pritchard video footage picks up their voices; one officer asks, "How are you, sir?" There is no menace, but perhaps Mr. Dziekanski feels threatened. He waves his arms at the police dismissively, and marches away. This is the critical moment: Officers decide to apply force to subdue the man. The question, of course, is why?
Mr. Dziekanski was not empty-handed in the seconds before police shot him with a "conducted energy device," also known by the common brand name Taser. He grips something shiny in his right hand. Some eyewitnesses described the object as a stapler. It is worth noting. It may have changed everything.
The policeman fired; Mr. Dziekanski was hit with 50,000 volts of electricity. "More stopping power than a .357 Magnum," declares the weapon's Arizona-based manufacturer.
What we know, what we have seen and heard, is that Mr. Dziekanski's muscles seized involuntarily. He dropped the device he was holding and collapsed to the floor. He did not appear subdued but he was vulnerable, and not in a position to do others harm. An officer shot him again. The officers manhandled Mr. Dziekanski. They applied pressure to his head and neck. And he died. He should not have.
The Pritchard video is not the final word. The rest -- hours of events that led to the fatal confrontation, what airport authorities and police could, or could not, have done, who is responsible, what laws, if any, were broken, what sort of condition Mr. Dziekanski was in -- must be examined and made public, so that such an incident never again happens. So that his life might be honoured. Misleading people and deliberately ignoring details that don't conform to one's cynical view of authority only spread shame.
bhutchinson@nationalpost.com---------
Robert Dziekanski's Final Hours At Vancouver International Airport
Mother's futile wait for her son ends with hearing he is dead
(See hardcopy for Graphic)KAGAN McLEOD / NATIONAL POST
OCT. 13, 2007
1:30 p.m. Zofia Cisowski, Robert Dziekanski's mother, arrives at airport.
1:40 Plane is supposed to arrive.
3:00 Plane arrives.
4:00 Mr. Dziekanski clears customs.
4:00 Mother makes first inquiry at information desk about her son.
Between 7 and 8 Mother, after several trips to information desk on arrivals level of airport, is told to try the information desk upstairs at the departures level. That desk eventually agrees to page Mr. Dziekanski, although the page is not heard in the secure area where he is located.
7:30 Ms. Cisowski's travelling companion talks to CBSA or immigration official about Mr. Dziekanski by telephone, but receives no relevant information. 9:30 Travelling
companion speaks again by phone with CBSA or immigration official, is told "there is no Polish immigrant here tonight."
10:00 Mother
makes final trip to information desk, decides that Mr. Dziekanski must have missed his flight, and leaves for home, a four-hour drive.
10:30 For unknown reason, Mr. Dziekanski spends almost six-and-a-half hours in the baggage-claim. At 10:30 p.m. airport officials help him find his luggage. He then arrives at secondary inspection, and is sent to immigration.
11:30 Immigration official leaves message on mother's home phone: "It's Canada Immigration calling ... for Zofia. Well, we're expecting her
to be here, I guess, picking up her relative."
12:30 a.m. Mr. Dziekanski is released from immigration.
1:20 Airport operations is notified about a man reacting strangely.
1:25 Airport security responds; RCMP arrive shortly thereafter; two minutes later, Mr. Dziekanski is dead.
2:00 Ms. Cisowski arrives home, receives phone message.
6:00 Ms. Cisowski boards bus back to Vancouver.
Afternoon Ms. Cisowski is told that her son is dead.

hey Dave I know this as i've done it lots too but you need to click maybe on home page then back to article after posting a comment or what it does as i'm sure you've noticed is it reposts your post if you just refresh after posting :)

68 year old, tasered twice by a Kelowna Mountie.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/08/bc-taseredpaperboy.html

Posted by: heidi1555 on November 18 2007 7:12 PM
hey Dave I know this as i've done it lots too but you need to click maybe on home page then back to article after posting a comment or what it does as i'm sure you've noticed is it reposts your post if you just refresh after posting :)

Thanks I thought there was an echo in here.
Didn't mean to do it

furtee:

"68 year old"? An Ontario slug tased a 79 year old man, who died shortly after.

There is mixed reporting in the "Province" today. Good coverage of the funeral; victim families from across Canada joined the event.

Anyone who says cops are using those weapons only as a last resort is a liar.

For one, I welcome an independant investigation into this incident and I can tell you an outside police force combined with other agencies will do it.

Yes, its a tragedy worthy of global attention. But for the most part all I have seen is a bunch of hate mongering towards the RCMP or police in general. Pigs, piglets, scarlet ss, etc. are terms I have been reading, even to the point of where people are posting comments that the RCMP members who died recently deserved it!
To Ben, Heidi, Pisspuller, pisshead or whomever - you have to expect that if you're going to sling some mud at the police in a public forum, you'd better expect to get some flung back at you from people who are in the law enforcement community. In this light since emotions are raw, anonyminity (spelling?) is a good thing.

If you put out there on this site or any site that you think you know who someone is (without really knowing), or you are, for instance, the single mom ex to someone who was the subject of another hot topic on opinion 250, then you HAVE to know that you are setting yourself up for criticism from one camp or another. You can either start shaking or crying at home and post it (not advisable) or you can suck it up, realising that it was you who put it out there in the first place.

On watching the enhanced video on global, it is clear that Mr. Dziekanski broke away from the police officers, and picked up a metal stapler in his right hand and turned to face them in a combative stance. I believe blogger "Dave" has gone into this in his postings along with "raparee."

Naysayers may laugh, quickly dismissing a stapler as dangerous. It is in reality a hunk of edged metal and will do some real damage to a person should someone with the size and strength of Mr. Dziekanski grab you and strike you in the head with it. It is not the object itself that may be a weapon, but its how it is brandished or potentially used against someone that defines it as a weapon. Oh, I can still hear some "yeah rights", but I suggest you think back to some time in your life when somebody may have walloped you with something you weren't expecting to get hit with. Then perhaps you'll understand a little better.

By picking up that stapler, Dziekanski had the ability and the means by which to do bodily harm to another person. His intent can only be determined by factors such as: behavior, body posture, facial expression etc... In a way, the police might have been justified in drawing their service handguns, but the option to use the tazer, a non lethal defence was deployed.

Amoung some questions that should and will be answered are:
Didn't Dziekanski's mother state in one part of an interview that he had some past mental health issues?

Is there any history back in poland of Mr. Dziekanski having anger management issues?

Was there anything in Mr. Dziekanski's history in Europe (criminal convictions?) that may have delayed his being processed at YVR?

Were all his papers in order to get through Canada Customs?

No matter what the outcome of this incident will be, neither side will win.

People seem to think that the police should accept the odd punch to the head as part of the job, hence the posts asking why the four officers did not wrestle the male to the ground. Doesn't work that way. The taser was used as the most effective means of controlling this male without injury to the officers and the male, unfortunately the male died. It probably would have been the same result had other methods been used.There clearly was something wrong with this fellow. The policy regarding taser use appears to have been adhered to according to the use of force continuum on the rcmp website. Why are the posters who disagree with some of the comments by the police haters undergo such ridicule? Is this not a democratic forum?

Dave posted this ....

"The Pritchard video footage picks up their voices; one officer asks, "How are you, sir?" There is no menace, but perhaps Mr. Dziekanski feels threatened. He waves his arms at the police dismissively, and marches away. This is the critical moment: Officers decide to apply force to subdue the man. The question, of course, is why?"

The moment the police arrived was critical. They spoke with non one there before entering. Not with the security people, not with the lady, not with the camera man, not with any of the additional people who seemed to be in the general area and came into camera view when the action got heated.

In addition, we do not know whether they spoke with anyone at YVR about the history of this person at the airport.

So, the critical moment for me happened long before they jumped the handrail and simply entered into what most who would understand how to defuse such a situation, would consider to be Dziekanski’s personal space of comfort. Remember, he was not harming anyone. He destroyed a small wooden folding-type table and what appears to be an LCD monitor. If 100 people were asked, most would probably describe him as distraught.

For those who do not understand what defusing principles are, you may wish to enlighten yourself and read the linked page

http://www.adl.org/Learn/safety/defusing.asp

and here is one for prison situations: (remember, there are people who are much more skilled at this sort of thing and who ought to be teaching RCMP, airport security, etc. how such a situation is properly handled)

http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pso1600/Sec%201.3%20Descalation.htm

"Why are the posters who disagree with some of the comments by the police haters undergo such ridicule? Is this not a democratic forum? "

Very simple, because the "police lovers" demean the tasered victim and the "police lovers" are ridiculed for not believing manufacturer's literature about tasers, about the lack of training for RCMP and the training of YVR security staff.

An interesting note I read on another site:

"It would be reasonable to expect a police officer in an INTERNATIONAL airport to ask for the arrived traveler's PASSPORT first and deescalate the situation – instead , the R.C.M.P. escalated the continuum of force – shoot first – check the Passport later."

Such a simple, obvious and very appropriate thing, when one thinks about it. Almost anyone would be able to figure out what language he spoke then. And even he would have known that he has to show a passport. Anything like that to start the defusing activity and move into the helping activity.

The more I look at it, the RCMP were ready for a fight, the expected a fight when they went in, and fighting is all they were capable of doing. They fail miserably at de-escalating sequences.

In fact, the whole notion of force continuum itches for a fight. The goal is not to stop at the initial stages. As so many have posted here, the moment the stapler is picked up the fellow is armed and there is no more room for negotiation. That is the very time when it becomes the most important.

Look at how quickly things moved from entering the room to picking up a stapler. There was no serious attempt at addressing the steps in the force continuum concept

Here is what a commission for public complaints against the RCMP states:
“The Criminal Code empowers police officers to use reasonable force in the administration and enforcement of the law. In addition, the CAPRA problem solving model and the RCMP's Incident Management/Intervention Model (IM/IM) require that members assess risk and continually assess the appropriateness of intervening, in addition to their level of intervention. The IM/IM provides that the BEST STRATEGY IS THE LEAST INTERVENTION NECESSARY TO MANAGE RISK and that the best intervention causes the least harm or damage. In any situation requiring intervention, members must apply the "use of force continuum," which dictates the level of force that is appropriate to a given situation. The IM/IM states that IN THE CASE OF NON-COOPERATIVE OR RESISTANT INDIVIDUALS, VERBAL INTERVENTION SHOULD BE USED, FOLLOWED BY SOFT EMPTY-HAND CONTROL, which includes soft physical restraint methods, pain compliance, distractions and stuns, and then hard empty hand control or intermediate devices such as pepper spray.”
So, if verbal intervention is not possible immediately in an international airport, what does one do?

A. Say to hell with that and go to the next step?

B. Use intuitive body signals or even body signals learned for such situations in a course (heaven forbid that I even think there is such a possibility in Canada which speaks the universal language)

C. Offer a bottle of water or a Tim Horton’s donut? (wow … what a unique idea to get someone who does not speak the language to calm down a bit … try to be a friend)

Why is everyone who thinks some of us are hitting on the police so combat oriented? This is not a hardened criminal. This is not a fellow with a bomb threatening to blow the place up. This is a distraught passenger from a foreign country.

Welcome to Canada, land of the free.

chilako-pete

Do you have a comprehension problem? Robert Dziekanski was not placed either in investigative detention or arrest. There was nothing before him to comply with. You buy cop snakeoil about proportionality of force. Here is a guideline that is held as objective:
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/issues/102004/PDFS/Page129_fig2.pdf

"Impact weapons" are a use option where there is actual "assaultive" conduct. Dziekanski was walking away from the cops when he was struck in the back. The second Taser strike was made as he was writhing, uncontrollably in pain; lying cop swine refer to this as "non-compliance."

Unfortunately, the diseased minds who support this latest cop atrocity only represent 20% of the population, as given in 1 poll. The majority needs to throw our weight around, and put the overpaid and under worked slugs who are supposed to deliver protective service, on a short leash with a choke hold.

You disgust me; you should disgust yourself.

For those with human decency who want to understand excessive force, please download this 112 page report, critical of the official position on the "Ramparts Division" scandal that broke in Los Angeles in 1998. Professor Chemerinsky discusses the "paranoid" "militaristic" mentality of the leadership that allowed false arrests, while cops were committing major drug crimes on duty. (Scroll to where it says "PDF"; the file is less than 500k)
http://eprints.law.duke.edu/archive/00001384/

If you think Canadian cops are decent human beings and not walking anger-robots, then read their fascistic comments on their most popular forum:
http://forums.blueline.ca/
(Scroll to "The Rant" section, then "Video released of now deceased man tasered in Vancouver") Remember: these animals have power to break down your door and invade your privacy.

In today’s (Monday) Vancouver Sun on page 3 there is an article which includes an interview with Dr. Butt. It states:

“Dr. John Butt, who co-authored recommendations on Taser usage for B.C.’s police complaint commissioner two year ago, said the video shows police did not live up to their own standards.

“I don’t believe they followed the recommendations,” he said in an interview. “You need to have a period of assessment before you pull out the Taser. You need to keep away form people’s necks and chests.”

The officer’s actions increased the chance of a person asphyxiating, especially when his is in an “excited” state, said Butt.

So, I think it is fair to say, this person is an expert on the topic of appropriate use since he co-authored a report on the matter and made recommendations to the complaints commissioner. We are just not going to see that kind of expertise on this site.

So, as I and several others have been saying …

Posted by: owl on November 19 2007 1:29 AM
...So, the critical moment for me happened long before they jumped the handrail and simply entered into what most who would understand how to defuse such a situation, would consider to be Dziekanski’s personal space of comfort. Remember, he was not harming anyone. He destroyed a small wooden folding-type table and what appears to be an LCD monitor. If 100 people were asked, most would probably describe him as distraught.....

The urgency was that 300 had departed a plane from Europe and were headed for the area

The killer cops are going to jail. They deliberately acted in contempt of orders from the Commissioner.

First, this is stated RCMP "principles" on the use of force:

1. The primary objective of any intervention is public safety.
2. Police officer safety is essential to public safety.
3. The intervention model must always be applied in the context of a careful assessment of risk.
4. Risk assessment must take into account: the likelihood and extent of life loss, injury and damage to property.
5. Risk assessment is a continuous process and risk management must evolve as situations change.
6. The best strategy is to utilize the least amount of intervention to manage the risk.
7. The best intervention causes the least amount of harm or damage.

A Directive from the Commissioner was issued, as a remedial response to the following Public Complaints Commission case:
http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/DefaultSite/Reppub/index_e.aspx?articleid=1363#_ftnref23

By Directive, RCMP were prohibited from using Taser weapon as they did in the YVR atrocity. And the national Commissioner followed BC law in so doing. The training of those 4 cops - and one had specific Taser training - followed a judicial finding, re. a trial against an RCMP Sgt for Common Assault, by Taser. The judge found that force used was excessive, but he acquitted the cop because he had reasonable doubt that he abused discretionary authority (CCC Section 25 defence). I think that was crap, but if you download this case then you will see the secret documents that cops are withholding from the public.
http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments/pc/2003/05/p03_0504.htm

Conclusion

[145] With the benefit of hindsight and after careful, dispassionate analysis, I find the force used by Corporal Hannibal was not necessary. In my view, Mr. Thompson's conduct fell somewhere between passive to active resistance. At the time of the application of the taser, he was under control of the officers who had hands on. There was no possibility of risk of injury to himself or any of the other officers as one of his hands was under control and the other was under his body. He was not struggling, striking out, kicking or attempting to move the officers off his body. In my view, Constable Stanford, Constable Nakashima and Constable Sokolowski would have maintained the level of control they had already achieved and would have achieved full control by handcuffing Mr. Thompson. It was merely a matter of time. At worst, I find another officer, in due time and after confirming further force was required, may have had to assist by either applying the handcuffs or taking hold of Mr. Thompson's arm so that Constable Sokolowski could complete the handcuffing procedure.

[146] Except for the radio transmission information that Mr. Thompson "may be combative", there was no evidence any of his prior conduct was known to Corporal Hannibal.

[147] I have difficulties with respect to the conduct of Corporal Hannibal during this incident. First, there was the questionable use of the armed taser in clearing Ms. Singer's home. I can only infer that the corporate philosophy of the Taser M26 as a panacea was embraced by Corporal Hannibal during the course of his training.

[148] I also found Corporal Hannibal failed to adequately assess the level of control already achieved by the three officers with hands on. I find there was a failure in communication with his officers in this regard and that he created a risk of a loss of control by those officers as a reaction to the firing of the taser without ensuring their awareness of its impending use.

[149] I am also critical of Corporal Hannibal's judgment in using the taser on a subject already in such great emotional distress....
-------------------
Robert Dziekanski will be found to have died because of "Excitation Delerium."

"The urgency was that 300 had departed a plane from Europe and were headed for the area"

Do you ever fly? .... Do you have any idea of how many arrivals lounges YVR has to hook on a plane into. Planes are late arriveing and departing all the time. This is no different ....

So we kill someone so that 300 more can land. What a ludicrous reason.

YVR at the moment is overbuilt for the current needs. There is tons of space.

BTW .. at 1:30 am that arrivals lounge would not be reqired to about 6am or later when the first overnight flights start arriving......

If you do not believe me, count the number of international arrivals between 1:30 and 6am .. and between 6 am to 8 am ....

http://www.yvr.ca/flightinfo/fids/ifids/ifid_Frameset_ARR.htm

3 in the first group ....

3 in the second group .....

do a bit of research on your own and you won't have to rely on those who are not cable of doing it and simply spouting off ....

If you do not know how to use the internet to do research, take a course at one of your favourite learning centres ...

;-)

I have confirmed that RCMP modified their Intervention Model, after the R v Hannibal case (Taser International testified); it is attached to that case, by Image files that are numbered. Save them by right-clicking.

http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments/pc/2003/05/p03_0504.htm

Image 37, "Before the Taser M26 is engaged on a subject, a member must make every reasonable effort to: ...Give the
subject the Taser Challenge: "STAND STILL OR YOU WILL BE HIT WITH 50,000 VOLTS OF ELECTRICITY"

Image 38 "Medical Concerns: 1. All subjects who are exposed to the Taser regardless of whether the probes were
embedded or not will be transported to an accredited medical facility for examination..."

BTW .... do you notice any planes arriving from Europe at that time?

Planes at that time of day come fro mthe west, not the east .... In order to arrive at that time they would have to leave Europe in the middle of the night.

Europena flights don't arrive until after lunch ....

lmorg thanks for that last post. I've been waiting for months to have someone say it is members of the RCMP community.
"To Ben, Heidi, Pisspuller, pisshead or whomever - you have to expect that if you're going to sling some mud at the police in a public forum, you'd better expect to get some flung back at you from people who are in the law enforcement community"
You can please put this on your record that I am not a hater of the police. (You all know who I love...yes it's you Joe Slemko..lol..) I don't care what you wear on your back it's how you act and behave as a person is what determines in my mind if i'll like you or not. I've never once hidden behind a fake name and why should I? Is it the law? Sarcasm aside I am proud of you for finally giving a post worth reading. THis is the most honest i've seen you and its' nice to see. Sorry the breast feeding comment hurt you but c'mon really????? Now that I got what I wanted out of you "Members of the RCMP community" i'll put my jabs aside and move on. Let's find the truth shall we?
I realize there is a shortage of men/women joining therefore the ones getting through may or may not be cut out for the job.

"Pisspuller, pisshead or whomever"
Imorg, i'm not sure if this a form of name calling, or perhaps you just don't read so well. But if that works for you, carry on then. I am not, by the way, never have been or intend to be a "cop hater". I don't believe I've ever posted even derogatory comments about the RCMP. Nonetheless, i have an opinion of the events that took place, no need to repeat them, no need to post lengthy banter or research, or link to death this forum on tazer ideology, ED, etc. My belief simply stated is that very poor decisions were made by the RCMP in the initial seconds on their arrival. Most likely due to inexperience and lack of life skills. I also hold YVR and Immigration partly liable. Yes i could drivel on for pages and pages, and recite every scenario imagineable to attempt to convince you that i may have valid points. But some readers are very biased to their own opinion,and i can't or don't want to change that. Free speech, yada yada yada!

"the single mom ex to someone who was the subject of another hot topic on opinion 250, then you HAVE to know that you are setting yourself up for criticism from one camp or another. You can either start shaking or crying at home and post it (not advisable) or you can suck it up, realising that it was you who put it out there in the first place."

Now heres another worthy comment. Kind of on par with DGDiggler's. Are you two related? I don't know Heidi, but i stand by my comments to DGDiggler. I think that doesn't have to be justified in any way. Apparently he isn't man enough to apologize for the callous comment.

I also believe RB's background and history is irrelevant, while others believe they justify the outcome. ABSURD!! I have partied with some of the fine officers of this province, i won't elaborate, but what i've witnessed are headshakers. I would say, SHAME SHAME, that behavior is illegal for civilians. But i'm a strong advocate of what you do in your private life is your business and your business only. Otherwise we are headed towards living in a police state controlled by Big Brother.

Somewhere along the line common sense has to prevail, and as a society we need to relearn this, it is falling by the wayside.

And finally Imorg, the two of your comments i refer to here cause me question the common sense and discretion of your thinking. It also makes me nervous, knowing that ,you, possibly being an officer, acvtice or not, don't have a little more tact.

Now i know my PR skills combined with the ED i am currently experiencing are a cause for concern, so i'll take my alcoholic nicotine fiend terroristic madman torso out to walk my canine companion.

" In this light since emotions are raw, anonyminity (spelling?) is a good thing."

Are you suggesting by this that if we were'nt anonymous that there would be some consequences? Scary!! Explain please.

These are people of action!!!! Any excuse to punch people out .... it is obvious there are several on here that know no other way ....

Well until I break the law and seriously threaten you physically keep your paws off. :) As for the bashing down of my soul it really won't happen as you lmorg and others with lmorg do not have my respect. I believe and its been shown here on this site as an example of what probably goes on in the interrogation room to get the person brought in to react. Now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go play lego starwars with my daughter...lol.. :)

When and how, did the of the title of the STUN GUN, become equated with the more user friendly tittle of, THE TASER? These are, two distinctly different weapons. The STUN GUN shoots an electronically connected projectile into people. The TASER is an electric device with two probes on its front that are pushed into people. Neither of these weapons are to be shot at, or, come into contact on a persons neck or chest area.

Tasers are old hat ... here is a wireless version for 100 foot range .....

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/07/10/taser_xrep_deli.html

the comments written below are interesting ....

Wow Owl that's quite the site you found! I think we all need to buy the first one way ticket out of north america. I would like to hear the reasoning behind this design by the creator. The person that made the last comment about his/her family and freinds being in law enforcement failed to recognize that not all people are meant to work in this field.

Posted by: furtree on November 19 2007 3:03 PM
When and how, did the of the title of the STUN GUN, become equated with the more user friendly tittle of, THE TASER? These are, two distinctly different weapons. The STUN GUN shoots an electronically connected projectile into people. The TASER is an electric device with two probes on its front that are pushed into people. Neither of these weapons are to be shot at, or, come into contact on a persons neck or chest area.

_________________________________

You pretty much have it backwards. The TASER shoots out probes attached to the unit with very slender copper wires. If both probes make contact and complete the circuit the subject is ‘Tased” and incapacitated. The probes are actually straightened out ¼” long small fish hooks basically. They don’t have to penetrate skin to work, as long as the distance is no more than 2” total between the probes and the skin. That is why it will work most times even if the probes only embed in clothing. The spark will “jump”. If you remove the cartridge from the front of a Taser, it is like a conventional “stun gun”. You can buy stun guns, some as high as 300,000 volts for $29.99 up many places including all over the web. A stun gun works by pain compliance, a Taser probe deployment works by confusing the electrical signals in the body “incapacitating” you’ like a whole body Charlie horse. You can construct a stun gun from a disposable camera (Google camera stun gun video). The TASER was developed in an attempt to replicate the effect of a Star Trek Phaser.

When the Pole was first Tased, he sorta ran, tumbled and rolled and probably broke the wires (they break as easy as thread). That is why you here one RCMP say “hit him again” and another RCMP then deploys another taser probe set to disable him so they can cuff him before he recovers.

Any regular old stun gun is just a battery and a capacitor that stores the energy and converts 9 volts to 50K – 300K volts (but the amps reduce inversely). T taser only puts out .002 amps. A Taser is hundreds of times less powerful than a heart defibulator.

My facts are not 100% correct, but pretty close.

canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/story.html?id=ea20b5b4-e367-47ba-8df5-1815ed86a85e

Knox column: Why police need Tasers
Jack Knox, Times Colonist
Published: Monday, November 19, 2007
So, the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, the NDP and - according to an Ipsos-Reid poll - half of all British Columbians think there should be a moratorium on police use of Tasers.

Sure. And how about their batons? If we're allowing YouTube to drive public policy, then the videotaped beating of Rodney King should prove that no cop should ever wield a baton again.

While we're at it, why not take their guns away, too? It shouldn't be hard to dig up a single video of an iffy police shooting somewhere. If we're going to let emotion trump reason, let's go all the way.


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Font:****The now-ubiquitous tape of poor Robert Dziekanski's death at the Vancouver airport is gut-wrenching stuff. The clip has also, now that it has gone viral on the Internet, become the sole basis on which people are judging Tasers and police in general. Public perception, based on a single video, is that cops routinely use the weapon as an alternative to getting their hands dirty. The slow and grudging response of the RCMP, quite possibly the most inept law-enforcement agency this side of the East German Stasi when it comes to public accountability and communication, has done little to dispel that belief.

So now we have a rush to judgment in which one incident becomes all incidents, and the critics, in their self-righteous indignation, blithely smear anyone in uniform.

OK, then what would these same people do about this: One of my teammates on the recent Tour de Rock was a Mountie who told of having a giant rapist come at her with two knives. Tasers brought him down. Another of the riders had a 260-pound man put her in a headlock and try to thrown her off a balcony; he, too was Tasered, but not before she suffered a broken vertabrae. What would those armchair quarterbacks who demand a moratorium have wanted these women to do? Shoot the guys? Reason with them? Or would the critics prefer to say forget diversity, let's go back to 1974, when the only people who got to be cops were guys who weighed 225 pounds, stood 6'4" and had porn-star moustaches.

It would be naive to think that use of force is not occasionally abused. But the numbers would indicate that, at least locally, police don't use Tasers indiscriminately. The Victoria Police, who in 1999 became the first force in Canada to employ Tasers, have used them 17 times this year. Remember, this is a force that handles 60,000 files annually and which, in the last two years, has recorded 1,200 cases involving assaults on officers or obstruction of justice.

Const. Mike Massine, the department's use-of-force co-ordinator, argues that studies show Tasers save lives - in fact, there have been times when he would have had to use a gun if not for the device. When it comes to risk, Tasers are ranked at the lower end of the intermediate range of weapons - pepper spray, beanbag-firing shotguns, batons, things like that. Massine has himself been zapped on a dozen occasions. "The thing with the Taser is, once it's turned off you no longer feel the effects."

That was my experience. I was Tasered once, for a story, five years ago. The split-second jolt was sufficient to buckle my knees, but once the shock was over, it was over. There was no bruising, like a knee to the thigh would bring, no screaming in the shower on Sunday morning when Saturday night's pepper spray came back for Round Two. (The effects of pepper spray typically last from 45 minutes to two hours, but can sometimes be felt for days.) There was none of the really ugly stuff that can come with being hit with a baton. "Batons have the ability to break bones," says Massine. They can rupture organs, even kill.

None of which explains or justifies what happened to Robert Dziekanski. It is good that the B.C. government yesterday launched (though perhaps with not with the purest of motivation) an inquiry into both Dziekanski's death and the use of Tasers.

But if there is to be a moratorium, let it be as a result of a full investigation and a broad view, not a 30-second clip on YouTube.

When ignorance prospers, none have the intelligence to call it ignorance.

1. The Taser works by either launching contact probes or by direct contact.

2. Probes must penetrate skin to work; that is why RCMP members are on Standing Orders to bring anyone Tased to a medical facility for immediate examination.

3. A Taser works by generating a pulse of high volt/low amp electricity, that causes alternate muscle contraction and retraction. It doesn't directly cause cardiac arrest, but contributes to same when the contractions inhibit blood circulation. Taser Int denies either Proximate or Remote cause

4. The black YVR cop (D__T__?) was the only cop with Taser 26 certification. While the killers will try to induce snakeoil belief that the evidence of the man's writhing-in-agony conduct was non-compliance, necessitating a 2nd shot, the purpose of same was to exhaust the target so that he had no muscle use at all. They had full control over him, but persisted in intentional debilitation. They committed both Common and Aggravated Assault, and must be brought to justice.

Owl, it is good to see that you have a perfect understanding of the use of force continuum. It is amazing that a person can become an expert in such a subject by sitting in front of a computer.

Truth, try as you might your posts have only served to amplify your mental instability. Maybe if you managed to obtain some gainful employment you could utilize your time in a more constructive fashion. Cheers.