I will agree with you on some of what you say.
It was indeed an unfortunate event.
Yes, tazers have become an issue, but I am not going to, at this point blame the offices for using a tool, that they have been trained in and taught that is not as fatal as a firearm.
I would far rather get tazered that shot!
I admit, I have not yet watched all the video, so will not make comment as to right or wrong by the police, but what person in their right mind, frustrated or not, goes into a airport and destroys items. One would think, or at least I would, have a list of sayings written down in both my language and the language of the country I was visiting, to cover at least the basic problems that could arise. Like " I speak....","could someone help me...".
Isn't hind sight wonderful, after they get translators they find out what he is saying, at the time they were dealing with a fellow who was bustng up stuff and being fairly uncoooperative, as I see it.
I will let the courts decide who was wrong, or what was wrong.
I for one, don't want to see anyone else hurt , police office or civilian.

"Yes, tazers have become an issue, but I am not going to, at this point blame the offices for using a tool, that they have been trained in and taught that is not as fatal as a firearm."

Maybe if you know a bit more about what the officers were supposed to do, then watch the video, then you start to comment.

Admitting that you have not watched the video .... and in my opinion at least twice - once to see what you can see to make a case to support the RCMP and a second time to see how you might be able to make a case for the victim ... means, in my mind, you should refrain from commenting on this particular case.

So, here is a piece which goes to what should have been done. The recommendations were made more than two years ago and should have resulted in new instructions to all RCMP officers in Canada by now.

According to this article, they have not been taught well or, in this case, the adrenalin flow during the excitement may have affected their thinking ability.

If you do not mind, I will cut and paste this information only because I do not have the time to paraphrase it and it hopefully shows that it is a bit more authoritative than only my thinking on it. After all, it deals with supporting evidence. Without supporting evidence, most points one wishes to make are toast from the onset in my opinion.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=d5b14912-a4f2-4fdf-a94d-46cbee71d5a3&k=46052
“Four RCMP officers involved in the Taser death of Robert Dziekanski appear to have breached recommendations on how the weapon should be used.

A 2005 report -- The Taser Technology Review Report -- by the B.C. Police Complaints Commissioner listed a number of key safety recommendations for the use of a Taser.

However, a video of the death of Mr. Dziekanski at the Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 14 suggests they were not followed.

Chief among the recommendations were that Tasers should not be used against someone who is "passively resisting"; that police should not use the Taser multiple times; and that after a Taser shock, the subject should be restrained in a way that allows him to breathe easily.

The report suggests officers approach such a suspect according to a well-thought-out plan.

"Where individuals are contained in a room, officers should use the time to formulate a plan for entry and restraint that allows them to immediately turn the person over to ambulance personnel," the report says.

It goes on to emphasize such precautions are necessary, especially if the subject appears to be suffering from a state of excited delirium -- a condition that may be characterized by such behaviour as a person "running through traffic or otherwise placing themselves and others at risk and would have to be restrained in any event."

For anyone who wishes some further reading on the matter, the full report referenced in the article can be downloaded here:

http://www.opcc.bc.ca/Reports/Archived%20Reports%20Cover%20Page/Archived%20Reports%20Title%20Page.htm warning, it is 24Mbytes in size.

Before anyone tries to argue that a plan was formulated for entry and constraint, one cannot IMMEDIATELY turn the person over to ambulance personnel when there are no ambulance personnel around.

So, that argument would fail on the observable and likely recorded facts of the case.

Therefore, if there was a plan, it was not formulated according to an acceptable standard of practice. The consequences of doing substandard work, in this case, was an indivdual's death.

Well said Ben and i do agree with you. I certainly am of the same mindset. My comment on the amount of articles was merely an inference to the fact that i believe it isn't necessary. The postings are there and plentiful, and its peeves the hell out of me to see some people actually justifying the RCMP's actions. Like BCRacer who hasn't watched the video, but yet has yet another lame solution for prevention. You could also read my post back at National Shame. Previously stated "some heads need to roll". There is no need for another inquiry, major changes need to implemented effective yesterday.

Sorry folks. Just skimming through the rest of the report.

"recognizing that prolonged struggle heightens the risk to both the officer and the subject, it may be appropriate to use a TASER as soon as it becomes clear that physical control will be necessary and that negotiation is unlikely to succeed"

Please note the last part about "negotiation is unlikely to succeed."

I am not sure how that assessment was made in this instance, especially after viewing the time sequence of events on the video. Perhaps the notion that a person does not speak the same language as the police immediately registers in their logic cells as "negotiation is unlikely to succeed".

At an international airport of some considerable size that is a rather presumptuous and unacceptable position to take.

I didn't think I had given a lame solution, or any for that matter.
I am not going to lay blame at anyones door step..that is for the courts.
People are so quick to get on one band wagon or the other....too much or not enough...too soon or too later...could have done less or done more faster...
I can see both sides...
the the sad thing is a person is dead...
who is at fault, if anyone, or what is at fault if anything, is not for me to decide..I would like to think it as a tragic accident until it is proven different.

So, continuing in the report, here are recommendations which apply to the situation at YVR:

1. With respect to CED’s, including the TASER, we are recommending, subject to situational factors, that they NOT BE USED AGAINST SUBJECTS WHO ARE DEMONSTRATING ONLY PASSIVE RESISTANCE.

2. For subjects who are displaying active resistance, THOSE WHO ARE RESISTING AN OFFICER’S EFFORTS TO TAKE THEM INTO CUSTODY WITHOUT ATTACKING THE OFFICER, where an officer believes the use of a CED is appropriate we are RECOMMENDING THAT CED’S BE USED IN A PUSH STUN MODE ONLY.

3. In situations where officers are CONFRONTED BY ACTIVE RESISTANCE, ASSAULTIVE RESISTANCE, OR THE THREAT OF GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM OR DEATH, where an officer believes that the use of a CED is appropriate we are RECOMMENDING THAT CED’S BE USED IN EITHER A PUSH STUN OR PROBE DEPLOYMENT MODE.

So, for all the police or police related individuals out there who are reading this and posting here, this is an all or nothing answer - which one of the three categories should this situation be placed under? Caution. You cannot render a decision unless you have watched the video carefully at least once.

Was the victim resisting?

If so, was he passively resisting?

Finally, if none of those, was he assaulting the officers, or could they reasonably have felt they were threatened with GRIEVOUS bodily harm or death?

And the answer is?

I want to be able to trust the RCMP to be my protectors when I need their help and not to have to fear that I might become their victim when I find myself in a situation of mental or physical helplessness and despair.

They used to have a (worldwide!) sterling untarnished reputation of being the most reliable institution that one could turn to in a time of need.

Right now I don't know if I can trust the RCMP, sorry.

On a previous post i lambasted YVR,as i do find them at fault in this matter. In saying that let me throw something out there. I may not have these facts correct, if u can help, do so. It was posted that the victim spent 10 hours at baggage handling, which i find hard to believe, also read that he was detained by Immigration for numerous hours, possibly 6. The victim in my opinion, although being a Polish national, also appears to have a darker Slavic compexion, perhaps Gypsy, Hungarian or Turkish. Is it possible due to our new US warranted border security measures that he was possibly considered to be possibly of Muslim decent? Was he detained and questioned at length? If he had been planning to start a new life in Canada, you would think he would of had his papers in order. Was there an interpreter at this moment. At this time his mother was waiting for him? Did they contact her? She apparently left. I'm sure Mr. Robert Dziekanski wasn't prepared for this and understandbly became anxious over the situation. So what happened at YVR before the police executed him. I need to know my Brother in law has his features, i wouldn't want him to meet the same fate when he visits.

I'm with you Ben, this was an embarrassment to the entire nation and a tragedy for the family. I, for one, hope that this incident leads to a complete and total reformation of the RCMP as a national ELITE police force. Hopefully their recruiting and training could improve to the point where Value not Volume is the goal and the yahoos that currently get to wear the Red Serge are passed over. The RCMP needs to EARN my respect again.

I also hope that our provincial government will look at forming a provincial police force with training that is specific to the needs of British Columbians, including better training on aboriginal matters.

Posted by: dgdiggler on November 16 2007 6:25 PM
Hey reparee, don't worry about heidi...she's just transferring all of her frustration over from the st arnaud thing...no father for her kid and all that stuff.....

Ok Ben, this is not your fault. Just a insight into what i mean when i say "stupid postings". Stupid is the polite version of what i'd rather say. For those of who know Heidi and her circumstances, you should all be appalled regardless of your opinion of her. This is absolutely abhorrent commentary, especially the last line. It's no wonder she didn't retort, so i'll help her out. DGDIGGLER you are truly a ****** idiot. Not that you haven't already proven that to most people on 250. What kind of of moron makes a statement like that, albeit not your first time. DG your obviously not mature enough to be posting anything, and yes youv'e proven that also. Be a man and apologize. Otherwise, keep your non-constructive assinine remarks in the back corner of the bat cave you reside.

I agree 100 percent with Ben, and I also agree with "pisspulper" that YVR also has some questions to answer as well.
So does the Canadian Immigration Dept.at YVR who don't seem to think they have to say anything at all!
We don't have to agree with every opinion posted here but, we should at least have the common decency to respect each others opinions without talking trash at them for saying it.
Perhaps if there was a bit more respect others in general,Robert Dziekanski just might be still alive.

:) Thanks Mr. Pulper ;)You are a sweetheart. I actually love it when I can make them show this ugly side. Shows what kind of people work our streets. To tell the truth I was shaking but walked away from the computer as I know what the truth is. One point for the sappy tree, no points for the beetles. I actually think I might know through friends Dgdiggler. I think our friend who is now an RCMP officer (who better stay safe and true!!! :) ) dated him but again i'm assuming.

To sound sappy again I want to believe Leah's father is with us. When she was 2 1/2 she came running out of her room saying,"Daddy ghost." Freaked my husband out! lol...who knows until I die I won't know for sure :) I never once nor has anyone referred to Kevin as a ghost. We have more respect than that.

Owl once again you gave an excellent read.
Again Ben, love your brain!

I totally agree with Ben. Remember folks you don't have to agree with everthing Ben says and he won't expect you to. But remember he is a voice of the people. Because he ruffled a few feathers of so-called people in so-called power he was kicked off radio and out of the local news rag.

Vancouver is an Olympic city and must deal with police crime to the satisfaction of civilized people. Our cops act out barbarian fantasies because big-media gets copy from innocuous stories of crazed druggies, bike gangs, ethnic house invaders, bicycle thieves, car jackers, drug dealers. If it bleeds, it leads and hero-cop stories sell to gullible human doormats.

Vancouver's taser gang is still on duty and they still carry tasers. That is proof that the issue has been pre-determined as have so many other false arrest/excessive force cases. The RCMP has already gave their opinion that the case is fixed. Ben takes a different view. Cops would tase critics if they could.

Taken from the National Post

Robert was born 40 years ago in Bielawa, midsize town, southwest of Poland. As a young boy, he moved with his mother to much larger town, Gliwice, where Zofia could find better job to support him. Life for single mom was not that ease in Poland at that time.

In Gliwice, he graduated the technical high school as the miner. This was a very popular occupation in Gliwice, which is famous for pit coal mining sector. After upgrading his trade he enjoy working on construction before immigrating to Canada.

Like I said before, I did not have a chance to meet Robert, but in last four weeks I learn a few amazing stories about his life.

Just imagine yourself, you are leaving Canada and going to some unknown country 9,000 km away. You have only three small suitcases. What would you take with you? Tough decision, is it not?

Not for Robert. He stuffed one suitcase with some clothes and gifts for relatives and two suitcases full of geography books, atlases and magazines like National Geographic.

As Zofia is saying, he was the geography freak. He knew the names of major rivers, lakes and capitals on every continent on the Earth. And you know what? He was buried with two front pages of National Geographic. One of them was showing Poland, and the other beautiful B.C. Two weeks ago when Zofia said her final goodbye to Robert, she brought these two pages so he can make his last trip to eternity and remember that he was a Polish-Canadian.

One more thing which comes to my mind is Robert's love to his mom.

He always remembered about Zofia's birthday, names day (European tradition) and nice postcards from every trip he went on. Not only his handwriting was one of a kind, as you will see on the slide show, but the content was very nice and thoughtful. Just take look on the last page of the memorial card.

This is from the postcard Robert sent to his mom, Zofia:

"Ludzie staja sie dobrzy poprzez praktykowanie dobroci, rzadko sie zdarza czlowiek dobry z natury. Dobroc istnieje wcale nie po to by z niej korzystac. Dobroc nie moze wyplywac ze slabosci tylko z potegi." Gliwice, 26/07/2006 Translation of Robert's notes to his mom:

"People become good by doing good; it is rare that a person is good by nature alone.

Goodness does not exist so one can make use of it. Goodness does not flow from a place of weakness but one of power."

I made the same trip over 20 years ago. Two small children, Maria and me. We arrived at Vancouver airport tired and our hearts pounding. We were so uncertain and afraid. Fortunately people from immigrants services welcome us and help us at the Vancouver and Kamloops airport. They were like guardian angels for us.

Robert was not so fortunate. The airport services have failed him and Zofia. There were no guardian angels or any other helpful human beings working there to prevent this tragedy. Our everyday Canadian kindness was missing there.

jonnypg that was nice to read and very heart breaking. My opa also made the trip over from Germany when my mom was two. Too bad Robert's day can't start all over. Unreal. Bless Zofia's heart and hope it's strong.

Cop Cultists are defending the RCMP taser-gang. Can anyone hack into Blue Line's "cop's only" threads. That is where they say what they really think about we who think they are underworked and over-paid.

http://forums.blueline.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13817

I get really tired of the one-sided stories. Have you ever noticed the RCMP NEVER defend themselves? I for one DON'T trust the media to protray the whole story. I DO know that the officers I know, would never use a tazer or any other form of suppression without just cause. I have watched the video and I wonder what we didn't see. Robert was baricading himself. He was speaking a foreign language, acting very odd and in an airport. My question is, if he was let out past the security and hurt someone, who would you have called? Why did it escalate to this point? In other countries, it wouldn't have even gotten to the point it did before he was tazered. Should the cops start in with their batons and beat him? Should they have special powers that would enable them to know that he didn't have drugs or bomb or anything else in his body? Anyone who travels in this day and age should know better than to act in a threatening manner. Tazers are better than beatings or shootings. Most of the people who I have heard of dying after being tazered had a reason besides the tazer. i.e. leathal amounts of coke in their system. Not the tazers fault. Maybe it's time to hold the media accountable for the whole story and stop attacking the RCMP everytime some idiot gets out of line and needs to be contained. ( I'm not saying that Robert was an idiot, I haven't a clue) I'm really sad that this happened for sure. I also know that when people die, we only hear the good stuff about them. I've been to memorials of complete losers and all you hear is how wonderful they are. Ok my rant is over. Let's stop attacking the police every chance we get. They have one hell of a job that I'm not willing to take over and I will stand by them every chance I get.

"Let's stop attacking the police EVERY CHANCE we get"

What puts police above those of others who have to act with due diligence as described under the Criminal Ccode of Canada? There is a Standard of Operation for most jobs. The police are no exception. They happen to do their work in the public's eye.

People are not attacking the police just for the sake of dong that. They are attacking because there is REASONABLE CAUSE to do so.

If we stop "attacking", where will this society end up? The use of tasers is apparently increasing quite rapidly.

We are getting to understand, at least some are, that they are not the perfect device to subdue someone who can be a danger to others. There have been too many deaths as a result no matter what confounding conditions may be at play.

The more frequently it is used, the greater the frequency of deaths there will be. Let's realize it has limited use, that other tools are likely safer, and that we should revert to using those.

Owl, which 'safer' tools should the police revert to using?

When the rcmp jumped over the railing like they were headed to a brawl, I knew there was trouble. Those four officers should be ashamed for the death of the man and for the embarassment this has caused or province and country. They should be removed forever from the force.

After meeting Ben during Ian's inquest I can say that he is out there for the truth and it is unfortunate that some people decide to bash him for doing what he thinks is right. Keep up the good work Ben.

If you go to the Blue Line website you will read the opinions of cops that were pre-judging what happened before the autopsy results.
Guess they were wrong.
All said that dope would be found in his system...a classic case they said.
A good example of the attitude we are dealing with.

...and NO,truth...I didnt have to tap into the wesite.That's available to anyone.

Ben, take note: I'm on side with you 150%. I feel embarrassed. The man was overpowered by overzealous officers. We seem to be moving toward a police state.

The video clearly showed a man in distress.

Have you ever been lost then been given directions and they turned out to be wrong. Imagine being in a new land, new building and have no idea how to communicate. Add on no food or sleep. I'd be pissed!

"accountability"
-the quality or state of being accountable; especially : an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions

"Owl, which 'safer' tools should the police revert to using?"

The tools is actually a procedure ... they did not follow their own procedure.

Negotiation comes first ... de-fusing the situation .... they made absolutely no attempt at that .... these guys had no people skills .... an RCMP officer with no people skills is a deadly weapon to innocent people ..... judge, jurry and executioner all in one neat holier than thou bundle......

We need to weed those people out of what is supposed to be an elite force ... they are anything but that .... too many mistakes ... in fact, I would say that is the reaons why some are getting killed .... when you have bullies, then other bullies will act likewise .... its a battle .... for the criminal element, its a war ....

Again, I must say, I fail to understand why so many do not understand that .... this site seems to have a higher proportion than the genral population of those who think that the only way to get something accomplished is through physical force .....

BTW Raparee ....

give me your address and I can come wring your neck if you still don't understand my point....

;-)

I'm assuming that when the police were called to the scene, they were told that there was an incoherent, violent man who didn't speak English or French trashing the place.
In my personal opinion, I don't think they had the time to negotiate. They weren't given the opportunity. How much time elapsed between the police arriving on scene and RD grabbing the stapler? In that time would the police have been able to determine what language the man spoke, find an interpreter, and open a dialogue? Once he armed himself, I feel, negotiation was no longer an option.


.... or maybe I DO need my neck wrung.

yeah - time was of the essence.....after all he'd only been there for 9 or 10 hours.....

If FOUR cops can't handle an exhausted traveller armed with a stapler without weapons - there are more than likely more unesecsscary injuries created by cops every day than I would care to think about.

This is stupid - and more than likely more normal than the RCMP would like to admit. It's too bad someone has to die to bring this kind of conduct to light :(

OK, Keep your stones in your pockets.
OMG
Is this guy a national hero or something.
When is this sensationalism gonna end.
I can not believe they hype over this.
Sure it's unfortunate he died.
Maybe the RCMP were a little to aggressive.
But cmon, the guy was trashing stuff, acting all freeked out in an airport, we did'nt see any video on what went on for the 6 hours prior etcetera and why the hell did'nt somebody in arrivals go get a translator.
The media is blowing this thing all out of proportion. Who cares some teenagers from Chile are thinking twice about coming here, and where does the Polish government get off critiquing our treatment of people.
This is an unfortunate event to be sure, but give it a rest OK?

"Once he armed himself, I feel, negotiation was no longer an option"

First of all, having a stapler in one's hand is not arming oneself.....

Second of all, it is at that point that negotiation must really step in.

Obviously you did not read or if you did you do not care about the opinions of people who know much more about these types of things than you or I do. I posted the quote from one of the Authors of the recommondeations to the RCMP made some 2.5 years ago ..... they should have instituted almost immediately. They must have bulletin boards at work, but maybe they can't read .....

"3. In situations where officers are CONFRONTED BY ACTIVE RESISTANCE, ASSAULTIVE RESISTANCE, OR THE THREAT OF GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM OR DEATH, where an officer believes that the use of a CED is appropriate we are RECOMMENDING THAT CED’S BE USED IN EITHER A PUSH STUN OR PROBE DEPLOYMENT MODE."

Then I guess it as up to the police at the scene to determine whether the risk of getting nailed in the head with a stapler constituted a threat of grievous bodily harm.

It does not just say bodily harm, it includes a condition as to the level of bodily harm ....

So, as the courts do, we go to a dictionary or precedent - the Oxford Dictionary is the one which is accepted in the courts in Canada.

grievous - Serious or dire; grave; shockingly brutal or cruel

Hardly what comes to mind when one thinks of an office stapler, especially considering that it is four to one ....

Besides, as is now coming more and more apparent to me, if EDS is going to be the claim made, they should have deferred the whole situation to medical assistance first, including having them ready to deal with him as soon as he comes under control since the road to self destruction can be stopped short ....

I am 99.9999% certain that part of the findings will deal with proper training of the RCMP at a minimum so that they can recognize EDS and handle it appropriately. Aggressive intervention is the last route since it aggravates the situation rather than mitigates it.

As I said, most of the RCMP are not assistance oriented, they are control oriented and typically gain that control through the use of force. Most people do not take kindly to force. A person with EDS takes even less kindly to force.