City Serious About Melting A Channel In Jam.

Tuesday, January 08, 2008 03:46 PM

Photo shows open water on the Fraser as a result of heated effluent from the mills (photo opinion250 staff)

Prince George, B.C. - City Manager Derek Bates says the plan to use hot water to try and melt a channel through the ice jam on the Nechako, is being seriously contemplated.

“The plan would see pipes at three spots along the river, one at the confluence, one about half the way to the Cameron Street Bridge, and the third at the Cameron Street Bridge.”

Bates says Canfor is on side with this idea, and is prepared to supply “low grade steam” to make it work. According to the City Manager, the water would be 20 degrees Celsius, and pumped into the River at a rate of 5000 gallons per minute “The warm water would be injected just below the surface and would have contact with the ice”.

Bates says the idea came from two sources. First, the Fraser River had not frozen over in the channel where the warm effluent from the mills is discharged. Secondly, the pump station west of the Cameron street bridge had been pumping ground water back into the river, and ice has not formed in that area. The groundwater is about 4 degrees warmer than the river water.

“It is safe, it is environmentally friendly as we will be using clean water” says Bates, but still, there needs to be approval from the Provincial Ministry of the Environment and the Federal Department of Fisheries.

The paperwork asking the Provincial Emergency Program to get these approvals is being hammered out now, as is the request for a technical assessment as was outlined to Prince George City Council last night. The documents will be sent to PEP tomorrow.

“I expect they (PEP) will request that we continue with the thermal modelling so we have a better picture of the impacts before they will agree that this is worthwhile “ says Bates, who adds the engineers say this idea is safe and “do-able”.

If the appropriate agencies give the go ahead, the costs involved to set up the pipes is very expensive. “It will be in the millions” says Bates, nearly 6 km of pipe will be needed, and it would be preferable to have the pipe in a trench to insulate against heat loss.

Previous Story - Next Story

Email |

Print |

Facebook |

Twitter |

Digg |

Del.icio.us

Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 03:46 PM in News by 250 News

Return to Home

Comments

Posted by: Anastasia on January 8 2008 4:19 PM

and by the time this is set into motion and the pipes put into place it should be March/April in time for Mother Nature to do her thing and melt the ice, and what heros city hall will look like, as they fixed yet another one of our problems!!

Posted by: realitysetsin on January 8 2008 4:29 PM

Why not dynamite?

Posted by: diplomat on January 8 2008 4:33 PM

�It will be in the millions� says Bates, nearly 6 km of pipe will be needed, and it would be preferable to have the pipe in a trench to insulate against heat loss."

Millions? Come on, let's get everybody on board, use volunteers and whatever equipment you can get your hands on. Pipes can be lagged to prevent heat loss and large hoses can be used wherever possible!

It's only going to be a temporary thing, no permanent installation in trenches is required!

Let's can some help from the Canadian Armed Forces!

Good Luck!

Posted by: giterdun on January 8 2008 4:53 PM

I WANT SOME OF WHAT THESE CITY DUDES ARE SMOKIN'.

Posted by: southfortguy on January 8 2008 5:28 PM

I have an idea: Lets just build a giant hair dryer and melt it that way....

Posted by: Runner46 on January 8 2008 5:40 PM

Scrap the giant hair dryer, we got all the hot air we can get....just have to ask Chad and a few others from this site to turn up at the same spot on the Nechako a few times a week.

That would solve the problem!!!

Posted by: heidi1555 on January 8 2008 5:47 PM

lol southfortguy. Any news on how all the workers out of work are surviving with paying their bills. I still think we all could do something about helping with their grocery bills at least.

Posted by: Palopu on January 8 2008 6:50 PM

Anyone aware that there is a lot of information out there that in fact Hot water freezes faster than Cold water.

There is such a thing as the Mpemba Effect that explains how this happens.

So in effect by putting hot water into a cold river it is within the realm of possibility that we could create more ice not less.

You might notice that the open channels talked about above from the Canfor Pumps (4 Degrees warmer) and from their settling ponds do in fact keep a channel open, but only for a short distance, after which it freezes.

This little experiment may show that releasing hot water into the river causes more freezing not less, and that the pulp mills are part of the problem not the solution.

Maybe Owl the researcher can get us more information.

Posted by: diplomat on January 8 2008 7:06 PM

This last post regarding the hot water discharged "may show that...the pulp mills are part of the problem not the solution" has taken the whole discussion up a notch or two - right over the top!

Heeheehee!!!

Posted by: Rico on January 8 2008 7:17 PM

Ok heres a thought... to build upon the theory of using warmer water.

The theroy is about four feet underground, the temperature of the earth stays the same all year long - about 55 degrees.
It is different in PG with the variance in the depth of the frost so lets say 8' to 10'.

Option - Yank the (buisness & residential) pumps along the river) replace them with pumps that could do what's required - either high pressure/low volume or visa versa. Pump sizes would be limited with either 6 or 8" well casings. Could consider pulling the warmer well water using solid pipe in the wells using surface pumps if they can pull the head.

Return the warmer water to the river along both sides of the river? All along the river.

The thing I don't know is the existing temp of the river when they saying 4 degrees warmer in temp is making the difference? And if in fact this would be a benefit, been wrong before.

Or get some boilers from the oil patch park them along the river near all the wells - fire them up- and pump heated water thru the exchangers. For that matter heat the flood water that is being pumped back into the river.

Its' a long haul for heated water from the pulp to the bridge for pipe with heated water.

Actually there must be a lot of boilers along the river road and associated areas such as the mills and the brewery etc that could be used?

There are large industrial cleaning trucks available that heat water for cleaning boilers and chemical storage tanks. (the pulp mill hires them)

get enough maybe it might help

just thoughts....

Posted by: heidi1555 on January 8 2008 7:21 PM

How are we going to avoid this in the years to come?

"After a particularly damaging ice jam in 1986, Zufelt suggested weakening the ice cover by drilling holes in strategic locations before the normal breakup. This would allow the ice to travel further downstream before jamming, lowering upstream flooding levels. The city has tried several methods during the years including drilling holes by hand, with gas-powered augers, and with a trenching machine.

After years of experience, they now drill a pattern of holes in the historic jamming location about one month before the normal breakup. They now use a posthole digger mounted on a small tractor and can drill 150-200 holes per hour through 16-inch-thick ice. This advance measure operation costs the city about $2,000 annually, just a fraction of the costs of a single ice jam flood.

Permanent measures are structures built into the river or stream to control or reduce the effects of the ice jam. CRREL researchers have developed several innovative ice control structures (ICS). An ICS was built in 1994 on the Lamoille River in Hardwick, Vt. Here, strong ice formed in a slow-moving reach of the river and impeded ice movement during breakup. Every year this ice jam caused a significant surge of ice and water through the downtown.

Hardwick officials contacted CRREL researchers requesting a low-cost, effective approach to their spring flooding problem. An ICS was built using four 42-ton granite blocks. These blocks were anchored to the riverbed so they could withstand the force of the ice and water, but the spacing between the blocks does not significantly affect open water flows.

This structure has been in place for six years, preventing flooding each year."

http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/CEPA/PUBS/jan01/story11.htm

Posted by: southfortguy on January 8 2008 9:49 PM

Good luck getting anything past the Department of Fisheries..by the time that happens we will be dealing with the spring flooding....an ounce of prevention....

Posted by: NMG on January 8 2008 11:07 PM

The water in my fish tank is roughly 25 degrees, 5 degrees warmer that what they say they will be using. Maybe I'll pack it down to the river to see if it will help the cause.

Posted by: giterdun on January 9 2008 8:16 AM

WHY CAN'T WE JUST USE COMMON SENSE..SIMPLE SOLUTION-- DREDGE AND MINE THE GRAVEL FROM THE MOUTH OF THE NECHAKO,WATER LEVEL DROPS,SEEPAGE INTO RIVER ROAD AND FIRST AVE DROPS. BINGO...PROBLEM SOLVED. THE GRAVEL CAN BE RECOVERED AND SOLD FURTHER REDUCING THE COST. IN CASE EVERYONE FORGOT..ABOUT A MILLION YARDS OR SO WASHED DOWN FROM THE CUTBANKS UP BY OTTWAY LAST SUMMER. GUESS WHERE IT SETTLED..RIGHT AT THE CONFLUENCE OF THE TWO RIVERS. THIS HAPPENS TO SOME EXTENT EVERY YEAR.THE RIVER USED TO BE MINED YEARS AGO WITH OUT A PROBLEM. LETS NOT FORGET,THIS IS NOT A TOTAL NATURAL OCCURANCE. PART OF THE PROBLEM RESTS WITH ALCANS CONTROL OF THE KENNY DAM RESEVOIR. LETS QUIT TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THESE PIE IN THE SKY SOLUTIONS AND CONCENTRATE OF REAL SIMPLE SOLUTIONS.

Posted by: metalman on January 9 2008 8:24 AM

Pie in the sky, typical bureaucratic thinking "lets just hook up a giant hose to the pulpmill, they have lots of hot things" Reality: a very expensive proposition, requires engineering (months) ground preparation (weeks) a lot of pipe, fittings, insulation, lagging (weeks to months) It is silly to assume that you do not require insulation if the pipes aree buried, there will be a temperature difference between the medium in the pipes, and the ground, and heat goes to cold, by the time the water gets to the river, it will be the same temperature as the ground, and maybe that is ok, I don't know. The biggest point is, where to start with the warm water discharge, and where to stop? No, It is my belief that this frazzle ice must be dealt with by a deep narrow channel at the confluence, which will keep the velocity of the water much higher, preventing ice formation. It will be expensive, will require cofferdams to divert the rivers as they go, and they will have to ensure a deep channel well out into the east side of the Fraser.
Like someone posted yesterday, if they just keep raising the height of the riverbanks, then the water level will be able to rise that much further, causing much more hydraulic percolation to areas alongside the new and improved dikes.
metalman.

Posted by: Howrd_B_Stern on January 9 2008 10:19 AM

It will be nice when this problem is over. I really feel sorry for those folks out of home and out of job right now because of this flood. My heart goes out to you folks.

Posted by: diplomat on January 9 2008 11:18 AM

Salt melts ice. Perhaps they can get busy and start dropping salt on the ice jam and create a ten or twelve foot wide open channel.

A couple of helicopters with buckets should be able to do it in a couple of days.

They can use the same buckets that are used for forest fires.

Posted by: kagee on January 9 2008 1:30 PM

Ice plants make ice out of hot water so the ice will not float and it seems to freeze faster. Spending all the money to pipe hot water, if it works, will only sovle the problem now, it will not slove the spring flooding.

The best thought I heard was to open some of the old river channels that industry has filled in. The last old river channel was filled in by Winton Global and that area always was always full of water during spring flooding. This spring River Rd flooded as the channel was filled. Plus the gibon dikes held the water in once it came up.

So it seems the more we try to control the land, the more problems we cause. If we dike the River we will end up having to have pumps all the time and right now the pumps are not able to get rid of the water as they are pumping the water right back into the Nechako River where it is flooding.